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Posted by: newnameabigail not logged in ( )
Date: July 10, 2015 06:38PM

http://www.gregtrimble.com/so-you-think-the-book-of-mormon-is-a-fraud/

yepp you are right dude there is nothing about the warm and fuzzy feeling in your Jesusjammies that makes the it logical and legit ...

And answering his Questions with honest and logic answers will debunk the bogus immediately.
Or like: How could Gene Roddenberry came up with Star Trek on his own?
I like #2 and#3 or how would Gene Roddenberry have been able to know so much about distant galaxies including findings noone had discovered yet? Like beaming and warppower?

and on and on it goes....
There were so many witnesses who saw the plates IT MUST BE TRUE -well how many more saw Scotty beaming someone up or Captain Picard visiting unknown species? IT MUST BE TRUE WE ALL HAVE SEEN AND WITNESSED IT!!!!

Here are the Questions you should ask yourself: And now I need a new deskplate after its been broken by my head AGAIN!

>>>>>>If you’re ever having doubts about the restoration or about Joseph Smith, just read the Book of Mormon and ask your self these 11 questions:
1. Could an uneducated boy come up with 531 pages of ancient scripture on his own that was historically accurate and prophetic in nature?
2. Would it be possible for that boy to understand and include ancient Hebrew literary writing styles such as idioms and Chiasmus, some of which weren’t even discovered until long after Joseph Smith was gone ?
3. How would Joseph Smith have been able to know so much about the Middle East, especially the Arabian Peninsula where Lehi and his family traveled? The book includes findings in that region that no one had discovered yet.
4. How could Joseph Smith come up with roughly 200 new names in the Book of Mormon and then have them turn out to be Semitic in nature?
5. If you think Joseph Smith couldn’t have written this book, then where did it come from? If one says the devil put him up to it…then why would Satan want to publish another testament of Jesus Christ and a book that does nothing but promote righteousness. Jesus said that a house divided against itself would fall.
6. Who were the “other sheep” that would hear Jesus’s voice in John 10:16?
7. Why are there volumes of books written by non-LDS authors stating that Christ came and visited the America’s a couple thousand years ago just like it says in 3rd Nephi? (See Example “He Walked The America’s” ) How would Joseph Smith have known this when at the time no one even considered it?
8. If we have the stick of Judah (record of the Jews or the Bible), then where is the stick of Joseph that is referenced in Ezekiel 37:15-20? The Book of Mormon is the only explanation for this scripture. Lehi was a descendant of Joseph. Think Joseph Smith could have gotten that right by sheer chance?
9. How could there be so many witnesses of the Book of Mormon and the plates and not one of them deny their testimony even when some of them became bitter toward Joseph Smith? With so many people involved…a hoax of this magnitude could never go uncovered.
10. How could the Book of Mormon never contradict itself while being an extremely complex book? After all these years…someone would have found something…but no. <<<<<<<<<<

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: July 10, 2015 06:50PM

Almost all of those tired old "proofs" come apart easier than 6 hour pulled pork.

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Posted by: brandywine ( )
Date: July 10, 2015 09:32PM

Chicken N. Backpacks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Almost all of those tired old "proofs" come apart
> easier than 6 hour pulled pork.


Exactly ^^^

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Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: July 10, 2015 07:05PM

I have never cared whether it's the truth or not...never read it...waste of paper and ink.

Ron Burr

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Posted by: ConcernedCitizen ( )
Date: July 10, 2015 10:32PM

...no, it's real right?

Somebody said they heard about a guy whose friend said this other Joe-guy found a box with some sort of prize or treat in it.

...it ended up being a Cracker Jacks box. Could that be the origin of the Golden Plates story?

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Posted by: koolman2 ( )
Date: July 10, 2015 07:26PM

"... a hoax of this magnitude could never go uncovered."

Exactly. It's been uncovered for a LONG time.

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Posted by: seekyr ( )
Date: July 10, 2015 07:39PM

"5. If you think Joseph Smith couldn’t have written this book, then where did it come from? If one says the devil put him up to it…then why would Satan want to publish another testament of Jesus Christ and a book that does nothing but promote righteousness. Jesus said that a house divided against itself would fall."

AS IF Satan was the only other possible explanation. How about plagiarism and accomplices hoping to make money off of it? Those work for me.

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Posted by: Elder What's-his-face ( )
Date: July 10, 2015 07:41PM

What does the reunification of the Northen and Southern Kingdoms of Israel have to do with mormonism?

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Posted by: Debunker ( )
Date: July 10, 2015 08:02PM

What a bunch of crap!

First of all, the BOM would be a "channeled" book if it was dictated to Smith through a rock-in-a-hat. It's called "scrying", which is an occult method of communicating with the dead. It's the same occult method as looking through a crystal ball by a medium.

Second, a good portion of the BOM was plagiarized from the KJV of the Bible - translation errors and all.

Third, Smith was well-read in the Bible, so chiasmus and Hebrewisms came naturally to him when creating false "scriptures".

Fourth, the BOM included many of the national issues discussed in Smith's day.

Fifth, Smith was a known story-teller (and a liar). His Mother's diary told of how he would describe the inhabitant's of the pre-American continent in great detail - YEARS before the BOM was written.

Sixth and final for this post, the "Three Witnesses" to the BOM admitted that they only saw and held the plates "in vision".

There is a LOT more that debunks the BOM and JS as "prophet". I feel sorry for the remaining dupes who won't do their research into this false religion from a false prophet. They deserve to be deceived then.

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Posted by: Armand Tamzarian ( )
Date: July 10, 2015 08:50PM

Regarding no. 10: Doesn't the BoM always contradict itself? Where is the complexity? Word on the street is that it's really shallow.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: July 10, 2015 09:41PM

Historically Accurate?

Horses, elephants, wheat, steel, writing system, coinage etc etc

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Posted by: newnameabigail ( )
Date: July 11, 2015 03:12AM

Naa. of course its like that because:

>>>" The book
includes findings in that region that no one had discovered
yet."<<<

you need to know that.

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Posted by: Intel Geek ( )
Date: July 10, 2015 09:52PM

temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land,
2 Nephi 5:16

And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.
2 Nephi 5:16

Well..which is it..not to be found or in great abundance. ??? -

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Posted by: Intel Geek ( )
Date: July 10, 2015 09:53PM

the last quote is:
2 Nephi 5:15

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Posted by: seekyr ( )
Date: July 10, 2015 10:27PM

"6. Who were the “other sheep” that would hear Jesus’s voice in John 10:16?"

Some people believe that "other sheep" refers to the Gentiles, and that Jesus planned to unite the Jews and Gentiles.

Or maybe he meant actual sheep. The Sheep Whisperer. Hmmm.
But it's rather silly to suggest that there's no other possible explanation.

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Posted by: the investigator ( )
Date: July 11, 2015 10:25AM

What are the volumes testifying that Jesus appeared in America?

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Posted by: Doubting Thomas ( )
Date: July 11, 2015 10:38AM

I disagree with his follow on beliefs, specifically that if the Book of Mormon is legit, than Joseph Smith was a prophet and the LDS church is the one and only true church of Jesus Christ.

What?

Smith could have been chosen to reveal an ancient book but not have been chosen to restore an ancient church, and the LDS church as it exists today could have been corrupted any time since it was first restored.

I call bullshit on this simple logic.

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Posted by: Lasvegasrichard ( )
Date: July 11, 2015 05:52PM

There are hard doctrine direct conflicts with the KJV that simply prove it wrong .

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Posted by: 3X (nli) ( )
Date: July 11, 2015 06:42PM

Ever see a steaming surprise left by an unknown pooch on the sidewalk? Was there ever any question in your mind that it was in fact precisely that - or were you moved to wander over and scrutinize it, manipulate it, sniff it, taste it (shudder), reflect and meditate upon it, etc.?



A modicum of intelligence, a bit of life experience, and one instinctively recognizes a steaming pile on the sidewalk, one's feet automatically taking a suitable detour.


What's that on your sidewalk? A fresh egg McMuffin, or something altogether different? Go ahead, take a bite ...

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Posted by: ElderCarrion ( )
Date: July 11, 2015 06:45PM

Signs of a true church would include mass-baptisms all over the world.

http://news.yahoo.com/acapulco-holds-mass-gay-wedding-beach-025126606.html

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Posted by: Anziano Young ( )
Date: July 11, 2015 08:01PM

The biggest problem with his questions, bigger than the faulty logic, bad reasoning and fallacious arguments, is his underlying assumption that there is a God and a Jesus Christ exactly as described in the New Testament.

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Posted by: gettinreal ( )
Date: July 11, 2015 08:22PM

Exactly. I'm surprised it took so long for that to be brought up.

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Posted by: pathfinder ( )
Date: July 11, 2015 08:22PM

If it's true, then why all the changes?

Over 3,000 from what I've read.

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Posted by: phillymon ( )
Date: July 11, 2015 10:04PM

Chiasmus ! lol Chiasmus is found in a lot of non religious books,how about Shakespeare for example , I like Shakespeare but are his writings devine ?
. this study by BYU, statistical analysis of chiasmic structures found no evidence to conclude that such chiasms were indicative of divine design http://byustudies.byu.edu/chiasmus/pdf/edwards.pdf

Its also interesting that chiasmic structures in the Bible were being taught at Dartmouth in that era . Ethan Smith author of View of the Hebrews and former pastor of Oliver Cowdery attended Dartmouth as did Solomon Spaulding .

Chiasmic structure (following same rough rules) occurs in Smith’s D & C (not a claimed divine text) – making it more probable it is simply an artifact of Smith’s writing than not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2015 10:05PM by phillymon.

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Posted by: axeldc ( )
Date: July 11, 2015 10:21PM

1. Could an uneducated boy come up with 531 pages of ancient scripture on his own that was historically accurate and prophetic in nature?

Oliver Cowdery was not uneducated. He was a school teacher and he lived in the same town as Ethan Smith. He would have known about "A View of the Hebrews.

The BM is NOT historically accurate. There is no evidence for it, contrasting it with the abundance of evidence for the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Aztecs, Incas, Olmecs and other ancient civilizations.

It is not prophetic. Nothing "prophesied" has come true since its publication in 1830. It is only "accurate" for things happening before 1830, almost as if the author lived in the early 19th C.

2. Would it be possible for that boy to understand and include ancient Hebrew literary writing styles such as idioms and Chiasmus, some of which weren’t even discovered until long after Joseph Smith was gone ?

He didn't. There is nothing Hebraic about the BM. Chaismuses are a red herring and can easily be found all over literature. They are not unique to Hebraic scripture, and Joseph Smith stole whole passages from the KJV Bible.

3. How would Joseph Smith have been able to know so much about the Middle East, especially the Arabian Peninsula where Lehi and his family traveled? The book includes findings in that region that no one had discovered yet.

He didn't. How did Lehi take his family 200 km from Jerusalem to the Red sea in 4 days on foot? Why did he then send them back to retrieve the brass plates, a 400 KM round trip. There is no Valley that resembles the Valley of Lemuel, nor River of Laman.

4. How could Joseph Smith come up with roughly 200 new names in the Book of Mormon and then have them turn out to be Semitic in nature?

How did Shakespeare come up with so many more? What about Tolkien and JK Rowlings? What about GRR Martin?

5. If you think Joseph Smith couldn’t have written this book, then where did it come from? If one says the devil put him up to it…then why would Satan want to publish another testament of Jesus Christ and a book that does nothing but promote righteousness. Jesus said that a house divided against itself would fall.

First of all, there is no devil. He is a myth invented to scare you into submission.

The writing is easy to explain: Per Lucy Smith, JS loved to make up tales about the burial mounds near their home. When he met OC, a school teacher, he learned about a View of the Hebrews. Together, they cobbled together a novel by heavily stealing from a View and the Bible. It's no different than wondering how Harper Lee wrote the much better "To Kill a Mockingbird", and she didn't have to plagiarize.

6. Who were the “other sheep” that would hear Jesus’s voice in John 10:16?

The Romans, or any other culture that would adopt Christianity in the early AD.

7. Why are there volumes of books written by non-LDS authors stating that Christ came and visited the America’s a couple thousand years ago just like it says in 3rd Nephi? (See Example “He Walked The America’s” ) How would Joseph Smith have known this when at the time no one even considered it?

I don't know of a single one. Michael Coe thinks the Book of Mormon is utter horseshit historically. http://mormonstories.org/michael-coe-an-outsiders-view-of-book-of-mormon-archaeology/

8. If we have the stick of Judah (record of the Jews or the Bible), then where is the stick of Joseph that is referenced in Ezekiel 37:15-20? The Book of Mormon is the only explanation for this scripture. Lehi was a descendant of Joseph. Think Joseph Smith could have gotten that right by sheer chance?

JS was cribbing from the Bible. That's like me betting on the SB 6 months later.

9. How could there be so many witnesses of the Book of Mormon and the plates and not one of them deny their testimony even when some of them became bitter toward Joseph Smith? With so many people involved…a hoax of this magnitude could never go uncovered.

Because OC and MH were collaborators in writing the BM. Whitmer was the financier. The 8 witnesses were named Whitmer and Smith, with Page being Whitmer's BIL. Not tough to get "witnesses" who are either in on the fraud or close family members.

"I could not feel more satisfied and at rest if the entire Whitmer family had testified." -Mark Twain

10. How could the Book of Mormon never contradict itself while being an extremely complex book? After all these years…someone would have found something…but no.

Why does the Book of Mormon condemn polygamy? Why does it not mention the Celestial Kingdom? Why is there no Hebrew culture in at all? Where is the Passover?

There are entire websites dedicated to pointing out the holes in the Book of Mormon. Michael Coe, the great Mesoamerican archeologist calls the Book of Mormon unhistorical. Guns, Germs and Steel proves, without ever mentioning it, that the Book of Mormon could have never happened. There has never been any steel found in the New World before Columbus. The Pre-Columbine Americans never used wheeled vehicles, never had beasts of burden other than the llamas. DNA evidence shows that the American Indian is Mongolian descent, not Hebrew. There is no such thing as Reformed Egyptian, and why would exiled Jews write in Egyptian, not Hebrew?

The Book of Mormon is an obvious fraud, and these 10 points are cherry picked, easily refuted and prove nothing other than the desperation to believe.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2015 10:23PM by axeldc.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: July 11, 2015 11:02PM

the 'Plain & Precious Truths' that Mormons claim were "Lost from the Bible" are Kindness & Honesty. Are they in the BoM?

are they?


not in my reading, it's a story about family conflicts & wars, punctuated by ... ?

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Posted by: tensolator ( )
Date: July 12, 2015 11:04AM

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the 'Plain & Precious Truths' that Mormons claim
> were "Lost from the Bible" are Kindness & Honesty.
> Are they in the BoM?
>
> are they?
>
>
> not in my reading, it's a story about family
> conflicts & wars, punctuated by ... ?


Yes, the three chapters containing King Benjamin's speech. Ironically these are three chapters you never hear Mormons speak about.

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Posted by: Templar ( )
Date: July 12, 2015 12:30AM

No one that I know of spent more time (and several hundred thousand dollars of Mormon Church funds) than Thomas Stuart Ferguson while attempting to find conclusive evidence for the Book of Mormon.

After decades of dead ends and dashed hopes he came to the conclusion that the book was not true and personally told me that a BoM city will never be found since they only existed in the mind of Joseph Smith.

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Posted by: Anziano Young ( )
Date: July 12, 2015 02:06PM

My freshman year of college, at a Lutheran university, I would go to the library every week and check out whatever book looked interesting to read for the weekend. Looking through the religion section, I came across a book by Ferguson on BOM archaeology and checked it out. My parents noticed me reading it (I went home every weekend at the time) and immediately told me to return it because it was written by a man who "lost his testimony." I finished it.

For people who like to make a big noise about truth, they sure get jittery when the truth jumps up and bites them in the ass.

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Posted by: Templar ( )
Date: July 15, 2015 11:03AM

It's interesting that your folks were aware that Ferguson had "lost his testimony" since that was really kept quiet. Ferguson stayed in the Church ("because he loved to sing in the ward choir") until death.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2015 11:08AM by Templar.

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Posted by: androidandy ( )
Date: July 12, 2015 10:54AM

In 2006 my long time suspicions were confirmed...

The Nephites in the BoM are imaginary people and Mormonism is a clumsy hoax.

I still chuckle at the nonsense.

The internet helped me realize that my natural skepticism about the cult was correct.

FUCK you lds CULT leaders for hurting so many good people.

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Posted by: flyindoc ( )
Date: July 12, 2015 12:21PM

I thoroughly enjoyed Dr. Michael Coe's archeological discussion (the absence of) Book of Mormon finds. His direct discussion of Central American archeological digs, down to animal bone fragments near a cooking fire, put the apologists tapar represents horse to shame. His corrections are so gentle, I didn't feel stupid for believing in pre-Columbian horses.


http://mormonstories.org/michael-coe-an-outsiders-view-of-book-of-mormon-archaeology/



Largest Nephite pyramid discovered to date:

http://www.aztec-history.com/cholula-pyramid.html

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Posted by: frackenmess ( )
Date: July 12, 2015 06:27PM

Would you explain to me how this is a Nephite pyramid?

Complete BS!

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Posted by: Chump ( )
Date: July 12, 2015 01:20PM

No, I don't think so...I KNOW it...it's painfully obvious to anyone with a functioning brain and a bit of education...assuming they weren't brainwashed to believe it from childhood.

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