I remember Grant Palmer saying that he called out the church in New Zealand for teaching that evolution was wrong, and he didn't agree they should be teaching that, because the official church position on that was neutral. He was still TBM at that point.

Did that change? Or is the LDS church still neutral on the issue?

What gets taught in BYU science courses that relate to life origins or the age of the earth?

The Missionary Position?


Aw, c'mon, somebody was bound to say it....

Like many things, they don't have an "official position", it's left somewhat nebulous.

Evolution is taught at BYU in Biology. Some church leaders will openly talk about it, usually in the context of it being directed somehow. Other leaders do teach that god magically created everything in place and the earth is aprox 6000 years old.

It just depends on who you talk to and in what context. There is no "divine" doctrine on the subject and the leaders are content with letting the membership figure it out on their own.

I've mentioned this before, and it sounds like others had different experiences, but evolution was not taught in Bio 100 when I was at BYU. I don't believe it was taught in any section since these were all HUGE classes full of freshmen. It was in the textbook, but the professors made it clear on the first day that it would not be taught. Evolution was taught in higher level bio classes though.

Holland's last conference talk, with his insistence that Adam and Eve were real, seemed rather anti-evolution. Of course, he did leave open the possibility that there were pre-Adamites, mentions that there was no "human death" in the garden instead of no death at all on the earth, etc... it all seems rather stupid. Why not just give up your stupid myths and accept that Adam and Eve never existed in a magical garden? The world makes a lot more sense when you accept that.

When I was in seminary and institute in the 1980's we were taught that evolution was false. I was quoted Genesis - animals re-created AFTER THEIR KIND. There was no real wiggle room for that.

I am sure as the evidence for evolution piles up this model has changed. I haven't been back to church in 15 years so I don't know what they teach now.

Many members and local leaders believe and teach that evolution is false. But church does not take an official stance on it. It's so they have deniability later on if they need it. 'We never taught that evolution was false!'

While most TBM's don't believe in evolution, it is taught in science classes at BYU, along with the Big Bang theory.

They had an official position in 1909, as evidenced by the official statement from the first presidency of that year:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~akc/evolution-1909.htm

That "official position" was that Adam was the first man, that he was created specifically by god and not "evolved," and that god created all animals as they are. They referred to evolution as "theories of men," and instructed that where "theories of men" conflict with scripture or divine revelation, scripture or divine revelation are correct.

Other than a brief and not nearly as direct reiteration of that statement in 1948, there have been no official statements -- other than to say that the church has no official statement.

Interesting.

I know TBM's who strictly believe that the earth is 6K years old and earth was created exactly as described in the Bible. I know others who believe that the Bible is not strictly historical or scientific and therefor they can accept that God used evolution, or some form of it, to create life. I'd bet the Top 15 wouldn't touch the topic with a ten foot pole. I've heard a lot of leaders tell people to read their scriptures, pray, and God will give them the answer.

D&C 77 states that the earth is 6k years old, so anyone who believes otherwise, which I think is many or most Mormons, and knows about D&C 77 is in a state of cog-dis.

From Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, Chapter 30: "Death and the Postmortal Spirit World" (2000), pp. 83–84:

“There was no death in the earth before the fall of Adam. …

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-30-death-and-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng


Seeing as "the fall of Adam," according to Mormon teachings, occurred less than 6,000 years ago, the Theory of Evolution wouldn't have a prayer in the Mormon religion!

The Morg has been on the wrong side of virtually every issue since 1830. So, whatever the correct view is on darwinian evolution, the Morg's position is opposite that.

They don't know if they teach that. They understand the philosophy behind it but it's in the past. It's a fleck on Tommy's ass that just makes him scratch and sniff.

Of course, an actual "one true church" with a "living prophet" should have no problem making an official statement as to whether or not evolution is "true," and/or what parts of it.

Mormonism doesn't make an official statement, though. Because when they've made such official statements in the past, and been shown completely wrong, they look stupid. So they simply ignore all the official statements in the past denying the fact of evolution, and claim not to take an official position, to avoid looking even more stupid than they already do.

Statement from Joseph Fielding Smith:

"CANNOT BELIEVE BOTH GOSPEL AND EVOLUTION. I say most emphatically, you cannot believe in this theory of the origin of man, and at the same time accept the plan of salvation as set forth by the Lord our God. You must choose the one and reject the other, for they are in direct conflict and there is a gulf separating them which is so great that it cannot be bridged, no matter how much one may try to do so."

"If you believe in the doctrine of the evolutionist, then you must accept the view that man has evolved through countless ages from the very lowest forms of life up through various stages of animal life, finally into the human form. The first man, according to this hypothesis known as the "cave man," was a creature absolutely ignorant and devoid of any marked intelligence over the beasts of the field."

Source: Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1

Additional quotes from Joseph Fielding Smith:

May 14, 1961 - Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith announces to stake conference in Honolulu:
"We will never get a man into space. This earth is man's sphere and it was never intended that he should get away from it."

"The moon is a superior planet to the earth and it was never intended that man should go there. You can write it down in your books that this will never happen."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2015 11:08PM by cognitivedissonance.

so tell us how darwinian evolutuon differs from evolution.

It's just pedantry on my part.

"Evolution" technically just means any kind of change, the word doesn't refer to a particular scientific theory.

If you want to talk about gradual change in living creatures over generations in response to their environment, the correct term is "evolution by natural selection" or "Darwinian evolution".

I'm a sucker for using the right terminology.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2015 03:21AM by finnan haddie.

Evolution was already accepted, at least amongst a large section of the educated, before Charles Darwin.

Alfred Russell Wallace and Charles Darwin came up with the idea that the mechanism for change in Evolution was Natural Selection.

So when one talks of "Darwinian" Evolution, one is referring specifically to Natural Selection.

There is no official position other than Adam is the progenitor of our "race."

This puts LDS Inc in a very bad position because for the gospel to be true there had to be a Garden of Eden, a fall and no death before the fall. If man evolved just like all other animals and plants there was death on earth for billions of years (there are museums full of fossils all over the world) then LDS doctrine "falls" apart. Dodo Jeff made a reference to this at the last conference.

The other unofficial, official position is "we don't know everything God knows. Have faith and someday (i.e. when we die) we will know the truth." This is obvious nonsense and its a no lose position for LDS Inc. Either there was an Adam or not - there is no middle ground here. If there was no Adam there is no LDS gospel (other than as a metaphor).

I had not considered that the LDS church is in a worse position on this issue than mainstream Christianity, as Adam himself is a key figure in the cosmology and the "plan of salvation" - whereas in other churches he is not so significant.

I had a biology professor from BYU that passed out an Ensign article that basically said the they didn't have a position for or against it and tithing money was used to fund researching evolution and it was ok to study it.

one day, while talking about evolution at church (a general conversation with a friend - not a lesson or PH "discussion") a member of the stake presidency interrupted out conversation.

He said "I am not sure we believe that"

that, pretty much, sums it up for me.

I think the European arm tends to avoid talking about evolution, because full on creationism is pretty much regarded as a sign of mental illness, in Europe.

In the USA the position is reversed and, I hear, the church tends to be more vocal about creationism in SS, priesthood, etc.

while the Profit stays quiet about the matter, they can play both sides of the coin

When someone can interrupt a private conversation to tell the individuals what "we" believe.

I took Bio 101 at BYU in 2004 or so. The very first day was a long lecture on how students could reconcile what would be taught in class with their beliefs. Just because there's scientific evidence of evolution doesn't make it true or some BS Like that. Honestly I zoned out early on because it was so ridiculous.

Did I mention I was already an agnostic at the time and believed in science and evolution?

Part of our collective frustration as ex-Mormons is that we know that the LDS church has no position an things like this. You can't ask direct questions like this and expect them to answer. And even if you could expect them to answer, 2 Mormon leaders would offer 2 different and likely contradictory answers. And they would both be right, because that's how it is in Mormonism. And the frustration would be trying to manipulate your brain to accept two contradictory answers. Even worse, with multiple leaders saying multiple contradictory things, you're left only to say, "It'll all be worked out after we die," and then you return to the really important matters of home teaching and preparing that Sunday school lesson on nothing.

Short answer: There is no actual LDS position on Darwinian evolution.

Well said!

To state the obvious: President Monson is claimed by the church to have at least some version of the "bright red emergency phone" to the great beyond (prophet, seer, but I'll handle it later). If they're teaching evolution at BYU it's probably long past the best time already to make the call for help because nobody could clarify this issue better than the creator of all biological diversity Himself. What's been said so far by the church has actually caused more confusion in some ways than saying nothing at all. I've personally seen more than one Biology student with an LDS background struggle with the fact that by all appearances Darwin's theory is where vast majority of the explanatory evidence in Biology leads. What field of inquiry couldn't Monson revolutionize at the "Lord's University" if he just did what Joseqh Smith once did so often and called his Father Near Kolob with a question. He never seemed to mind opening the floodgates of information to Joseph Smith's understanding when asked. From what I can tell this was the primary selling point of Mormonism at that time, a revealed church with a living, active prophet. It doesn't seem to be like this anymore (not that it really was then). We have prophets, seers, and revelators but in name only, an honorary title more than anything else. If I could say anything to the church leaders it would be this: I welcome you to try to start living up to your job description at any time. Use this opportunity to make the world a better place as everyone including me would benefit.

The interesting thing is that most of the (non-Mormon) churches I've attended had no official position on evolutionary theory either, and I have never had a problem with that as I see it as them not wading in to an issue that isn't in their remit. frankly, I appreciate their reticence - it allows me to have common ground with people who share my faith but have less of an interest in science.

I am interested to hear there is no official Mormon position, though, as I had got the impression the church had an officially young earth stance, and was surprised when I heard Palmer say it was neutral.


Edit because I remembered that the pastor of one church I went to actually was anti-evolution. It annoyed me so much that I apparently blanked it out!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2015 02:26PM by finnan haddie.

Their position is whatever will generate the least trouble at the time.

Currently, they let evolution slide without comment. In 1982, my BYU Bio teacher bore his testimony of evolution being true. I have no idea how he reconciles that.

The LDS revealed scripture (BoM/PoGP/DC)requires a literal creation, literal Adam and Eve, No death before the Fall, and a literal fall among many other literal Bible idiocies including a global flood. This is completely incompatible with evolution.

To take an official stance supporting evolution as fact, the LDS church has to get to a position where the scriptures are merely figurative allegory in all cases. I think they'd like to be at that point, but the membership won't move that fast or that far at once.

"Well, here's straight skinny, son. See these here shells right here, and this here pea?

"Now pay attention closely..."

And, as in that carnival act, the object is to separate the mark from his tithing money.

Among LDS "prophets" within my lifetime, apparently David O. Mckay believed in evolution--as did the others in the FP at the time--but he was succeeded by Joseph Fielding Smith who wrote scathingly about evolution, saying one could not believe in it and "The Divine Mission of Jesus Christ."

I think that historical reality speaks accurately about the issue.

I researched some of early 20th Century "problems" with BYU and the Church education system at the time, and I note that three of the first PhD scientists hired to teach there left in the wake of controversies and conflicts with others within the LDS bureaucracy. I'll try to get around to posting that information in something that can be easily archived.

"Like many things, they don't have an "official position", it's left somewhat nebulous."

Do these weanies dare to take a stand on ANY TOPIC EVER? They never have an official position. Everything is nebulous. That's why people should run as far away from it as possible.

I think on balance the LDS Church is anti-evolution, because no leaders are in favor of it.

Some people claim that the LDS Church is neutral on the subject of the evolution of species. And perhaps they can find some support for that claim. But among LDS leaders there are numerous statements condemning evolutionary theory, but few, if any, leaders publicly accept evolutionary theory. Consequently, few members would feel comfortable publicly expressing a pro-evolution viewpoint.

When we examine the collective statements of LDS leaders and lesson materials, it is easy to find statements that evolution is wrong. We have the 1909 statement referenced above, Joseph Fielding Smith's collective work, Bruce R. McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine," and subsequent statements from various leaders including Ezra Taft Benson (BOM teaches against falsehoods of organic evolution), Boyd K. Packer (various), and even Russell Nelson (print shop).

On the other hand, we have a good share of LDS leaders who don't say anything about it. And, other than a private offhand comment of David McKay to Sterling McMurrin, I have not encountered any statements from the highest LDS leaders in favor of evolution. It is surely much harder to find those references.

For this reason, the primary message that gets through to members is that the church is either against evolution or neutral with respect to it. And members should follow suit. They should avoid the topic, condemn it, or stay silent. Whatever they do, they should not speak in favor of evolutionary theory, because that would put them on the side of the evil secularists in the eyes of their coreligionists.

The official position is to take no position other than that Adam and Eve are the first humans. Maybe this is directly because you have some who believe one way and others who believe another and facts are not fully known either on the science or the religious sides.

How do you get anti-evolution when there is eternal progress and organizing matter into critters that exist on earth?

in "the most delusional" category.
http://pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/publications/1105-1.png

Sacred Mormon scriptures unquestionably deny the possibility of evolution by natural selection. (As some people noted above, some modern Mormon prophets have denied evolution too.)

Every time a member or official of the LDS Church claims the church has no position on Darwinian evolution, he or she is ignoring the scriptures below.

-----What do LDS scriptures teach out the age of the earth?

D & C 77: 6-7

Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals?

A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence.

-----What do Mormon scriptures teach about the death of animals before Adam?

LDS Bible Dictionary

Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth for any forms of life before the fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the fall (2 Nephi 2: 22; Moses 6: 48).

2 Nephi 2:22

And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

Moses 6:48

And he said unto them: Because that Adam fell, we are; and by his fall came death; and we are made partakers of misery and woe.