I have been thinking a lot about life since leaving the morg and how I have changed the way that I perceive myself, the world, and life in general. I have to say that I have a much more healthy and joyful perspective on all three counts and have been happier than I have ever been in my life. When looking into why I am happy I am starting to think that it is because I no longer am trying to live a life of "fore-ordination" or trying to live up to the expectations of anybody else except for my own. I value the input from those I care about but in the end I live my life according to my own code. It is a beautiful thing to know that whatever way my life goes, it is largely due to the fact that I chose for it to go that way.

I mention this because lately I have been thinking a lot about sexual orientation and current popular views on the issue. I have to preface this with a disclaimer that I am not trying to offend anyone or insinuate anything in regards to other people. I am just offering my opinion/asking questions in regards to my own anecdotal evidence. Also, I am not just speculating or going against formal scientific inquiry. I have done my research and know the differences between popular opinion and validated scientific fact. Anyway, my opinion is that I chose my sexual orientation. I like to think that my orientation is not an inevitable controller of my sexual life; rather, I am in charge of it and I get to chose the direction that it takes.

To make things clear, I am an alternative sexuality and it bothers me when people tell me that I was born that way because I specifically remember the process of modification that I specifically took in order to have my sexuality be as I wanted it to be. I am not saying that there are not people who are born gay, straight, bi, etc. My wife claims that there is no way in hell she is anything but straight. I am just positing that there is the option for some individuals to direct/re-direct their sexuality in a healthy way. I know this may bother some people to hear, but I would be less than honest if I just felt that my entire sexual identity was "foreordained" and I had no control over it. I guess I really don't see any hard scientific evidence suggesting that it is not possible for some people (not all) to change and tweak their sexuality until it suits them.

I know I could probably explain more, but for the time being I am interested in seeing if any other people who have left the morg/organized religion feel more control over their life, and, if so, do popular views on human sexuality work for you? Feel free to ask me for clarification if my post needs it. I am not the most gifted person when it comes to explaining myself.

As a homo I could take offense, but I don't. Your point of view is largely held amongst those people that have multiple sexual leanings. I've always said that bisexuals are the hardest people to explain homosexuality to. Here's the thing: If you're born with an attraction to both genders then it's less difficult to ignore the facets of your sexuality that you consider to be wrong or difficult. But for us gays it's not so simple. Sure, I could chastise myself and keep my mind from wandering over to how much I enjoy touching naked girl parts. There is NOTHING I could do to make myself attracted to men, however. No amount of conditioning that could make me feel anything but awkward and uncomfortable when in any sort of intimate situation with a dude. I'm not a man-hater. I love guys and most of my friends are male, but I don't ever want one touching me intimately. It's not who I am.

As for redirecting your sexual orientation, I was raised in a religion that taught that homosexuals were evil and that AIDs was a blessing sent from god to purge the earth of these deplorable moral sinners. I knew I was gay from a very early age, and I can't even begin to tell you how many nights I laid awake praying to god to fix me. Apologizing for having these feelings and begging not to hate me and give me AIDs. The funny thing is, I wasn't even scared of dying. I wanted to die. I was scared that after I died my parents would find out I died of AIDs and then they'd know that god struck me down for wanting to kiss girls. Granted, I didn't quite understand the whole AIDs comes from having sex thing at that point, but if it were possible to will your way to heterosexuality then I would have done it. It's all I thought about for years.

I am glad you didn't take offense. I hate being offensive and hope I didn't come across as know-it-all or not understanding of homosexuality or heterosexuality. I totally get it and think that it is horrible when people try to suggest that it is a phase or a flaw in the person's character. I do think that the majority of people are born with their sexuality set in stone from their earliest memories and I would be amiss to discount that. That is why I emphasized that it is just me that I am talking about.
I guess I just posted this because it was a form of venting. I was just talking with a gay friend of mine who insists that bisexuality doesn't exist and everyone is born with their sexual identity intact. I just got bothered by it and realized it was because that sentiment was too close to religious dogma for my taste.
In no way do I think that my experience is applicable to everyone else. I guess I just am getting tired of being told that there is a cookie cutter way that sexuality is developed.
I am also really saddened by experiences like yours in which you worried about AIDS etc. and found death a better option than being gay because of religious belief. I would hope that all people could embrace their sexual orientation, whatever it may be, and not feel a need to fit any other "ideal".

and I here I almost joined Facebook to try to be ExMormonRon's friend just so I could see your picture. You still look good no doubt but damn there went the fantasy. Wait a minute, there might still be some hope here. Have you ever had, you know, an audience? :)

If I had a choice I would be a lesbian at this point because I have major trust issues with men. However, that's what attracts me sexually whether I want to change my orientation or not.

And how close it came to killing me (drinking myself to death).

Sadly, I was once part of the problem -- although I must say I was never comfortable with being part of the problem. I'm so glad I can just like or dislike people for who they are and leave their personal lives to them. :)

Again, I hope I didn't come across as implying that anybody could/should be capable of changing. I am always sickened by stories where somebody tried/wanted to be another sexuality and tortured themselves over it for years. Nobody should ever have to go through that. I think that we are who we are. But for me, even though I was who I was, I also realized that there was room for modification in my own life. There came a time where I didn't just want to be straight so I worked on changing myself until I became who I wanted to become.

Actually, as I read you story I am amazed at how closely ours are the same.

About the only difference is that I, at one point, looked back and realized just how much I was always looking at men. I didn't admit it back then or for a long time after I came out, but even when I was in my anti-gay I'm a heterosexual denial, I was looking at women, but getting turned on by the guys.

Rebeckah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I had a choice I would be a lesbian at this
> point because I have major trust issues with men.
> However, that's what attracts me sexually whether
> I want to change my orientation or not.

I had a friend who had been seriously messed with in some Lesbian relationships so had trust issues with women.

Please do try to choose to be a different sexuality for an extended time. Do come back and let us know how it works for you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2011 12:12AM by MJ.

I guess I should explain my sexual evolution briefly:

My earliest memories of sexual/romantic interest were always heterosexual in nature. I liked looking at girls, getting the attention of girls, and innocently fantasizing about my future with a girl. In my early adolescent years I started to have less-innocent fantasies about girls and really wanted to get a girlfriend etc. It was all very natural I was a typical hetero guy on that account. However, around that same time I began to wonder why people are who they are sexually. I never was interested in another dude and, frankly, at the time, any time I tried to imagine two men together it made me a queasy and I was repulsed by it. It just didn't turn me on. Overall, I am guessing most people would say that I was straight.

Fortunately, I am the type of person who wanted to know why I felt the way that I did and so I began to try to understand the nature vs. nurture debate. I rationalized that my repulsion to gay interaction might have been due to early cultural conditioning so I looked for ways to strip that away to see if I could alter how I felt. I first convinced myself that skin is skin and body parts are body parts. I taught myself that there is really nothing different about most male and female body parts.(except the genitalia-but even those have the same origins) Once I did that I desensitized myself to male on male contact and eventually got over it. From that point I began to experiment with things.

My first "gay" experiences were very unnatural and weird to wrap my head around but I liked it the more I tried it. I realized that if I could be aroused by a man-something I previously considered an impossibility- I could probably become emotionally/romantically attached to a man as well. So I gave it a shot and had a discreet long-term boyfriend right before college. I fell in young love with a man and enjoyed physical intimacy with him. But things didn't work out in the end (personal differences) and we split. After that I dated women and didn't try a man again until post-mission. (yes I lied to go on a mission). In short, I experimented with both genders but eventually settled on my wife. We are now married with children and I am very happy and in love with her. However, I know that if anything were to happen to my marriage (and I hope nothing happens to it), I would be willing to try with a man again.

I guess all I am saying is I went from revulsion-to-anything-gay-hetero to capable of finding love with both. I know it wasn't natural progression for me to be as I am now. I chose from early adolescence to take "think" myself into who I am today. That said, I couldn't change myself now into completely straight or gay. Of course, that is probably because I don't want to. I am happy where I am now.

I am sure some people may say that I only discovered my true identity through the process and it may be true but I don't feel that way. Others might say that I only confused myself in the process. But, if this is confusion it is the happiest confusion that I know. I have never loved my self more than now as a person who had the luxury to choose my sexuality.

I looked at girls as well, that was what I was supposed to do, that is what I convinced myself I wanted to do. I didn't even realize that men could be attracted to each other! It was not until many years after I came out that I looked back and realized how much I was really looking at men. I do not fess up to it, but I, like many other gays was anti-gay when I was trying to be straight. There are lots of examples of anti-gay homosexual guys Ted Haggard for one off the top of my head.

But my challenge still stands. Right now, choose to strait and change who you are attracted to.

That is a fair statement. I guess I only described the change, but the choice in the matter, in my opinion, was when I decided that I didn't just want to be a product of society and/or nature. I wasn't interested in making myself like guys when I did it. I was actually only interested in seeing if I had the ability to make myself like guys. It is a small nuance between the previous two sentences so I hope it makes sense. Anyway, I was content being straight. I just wasn't content thinking that I was straight because of variables that I had no control over.

I know that many gay men looked at girls, liked girls, or pretended to like girls because it is expected. I understand and sympathize with the pressure to conform. However, for me it was and is very much a real liking of women. Additionally, I have never been anti-gay. Even when homosexuality was something that made me queasy, I never saw it as wrong. It just wasn't my thing. I had no need to be in denial of repressed sexual urges My church raising didn't affect me that much. I think my only repressed urge is the need to control my life. Ha ha!

As for your challenge, the part of me that likes to prove my point would love to take it up. I just don't know how I could change it. When someone is comfortable going both ways how is it hard to make a choice like "like only men!" or "like only women!" I am afraid it would be impossible to prove anything.

Furthermore, I don't think that it is something that can be retroactive. Once I swallowed the blue pill there isn't really going back. I know food analogies aren't the best comparison to sexuality, but it my case I would like to use sushi. I currently love sushi. I had to force myself to try sushi the first several times I had it and I almost threw up the first couple of times. That was because the thought of eating raw fish on rice was something gross. But I kept at it (serving in Japan what choice did I have?)and soon got over my hang ups. Now I love it. I don't think I could go back to not liking it unless I had some food aversion issue or something. Now, that said, I know food preference is a crude comparison to sexuality. But the point I am trying to make is that I now like men when I didn't before, however, even if I had never chosen to make myself try it out and condition myself for it, I wouldn't have felt as if something was missing. I was content in my narrow hetero world. I didn't have an innate need pushing me to like guys. If it is not a need, then how can it not be a choice? Needs are inevitable and wants are choices. If I had never come to like men I don't think I would feel anything was missing. But now that I know it I don't want to give it up.

If you can help me figure a way to take you up on your challenge I would sure be willing to give it a try. However, I am monogamous to my wife and will not compromise my marriage. I would be the same way if my spouse were a man.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2011 02:17AM by foreverhuman.

As a subconscious understanding that you did not fit into society and you went out looking for where you really fit in.

I understand this because I went though the same stuff. In my conscious mind, I was NOT GAY. But my subconscious mind still drove me to go against what my conscious mind thought and towards my true nature.

It was only after many years of being gay that I could look back and see that there were plenty of signs that I was gay even when I was convinced I was heterosexual.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2011 02:32AM by MJ.

Thanks MJ for hashing this out with me. I really needed a different perspective to work with as it has been something on my mind for the last several days. I noticed that you said our stories are similar and I would love to hear yours sometime if you get the chance. I have actually considered the whole subconscious and conscious levels of sexuality during this whole time and I would have to say that I really don't know what my subconscious will show me when I look back years down the road. I have maintained a bisexual status for years and have honestly never considered it an issue on any level. I am open about it with everyone. My parents and friends never really cared. I was fortunate to have profound acceptance from everybody I cared about (except the church but that ceased to bothered me) I just can't see my subconscious or conscious needing to protect me from anything by having me perpetuate a false heterosexual status if I am gay. I would have nothing to gain.
If you don't mind me asking, how did you know that you were more into men when looking back in retrospect?

I was little and was watching Thundercats. Cheetarah was naked and I thought, "holy fucking shit! I need to break off a piece of that big p.ussy."

Definitely some people are born with sexual attractions. I think most people are "born that way." Its a gene completely with no other possibilities than manifesting, or a gene trait turned on by something in life, be it nurture, or natural process.

But, why can't it also be that some people choose their orientation? I'm not talking about bi-sexuals, which I know exist. I still would never judge some who choose something different than what I chose.

Niether MJ or foreverhuman can look into the others life and totally understand. Isn't it possible that SOME people can choose and lead a totally happy existence?

Hey Bingoe4! I think you just said what I was trying to say in a much more succinct way. Thanks! I wasn't trying to say that it is one way or the other. I was trying to suggest that there are those who choose to look beyond gender as the method of attraction and find happiness. Alternately, I think that there are those who have a strong inclination in one direction who are content. My only stance on human sexuality is that it should be embraced by everyone whether they chose it or not.

You're bisexual? Nothing wrong with that, it's a real, legitimate sexuality.

I agree with tony. Bisexual people are capable of looking "beyond gender as the method of attraction." It doesn't appear that you chose your sexual orientation. It does appear that you finally discovered it.

I'm a lesbian, and definitely not offended by your ideas.

I don't know that I was 'born this way' but I know that since I realized my sexuality (last year, when I was 16/17), as far back as I can remember I've had crushes on girls (I never realized they were crushes until this point in my life). any crush or 'liking' I ever had of a guy was completely intellectual. The only guys I have ever been even MILDLY attracted to have been absolutely flaming homosexuals. Now I'm realizing that this must be because they act in a more feminine manner, therefore they fit what I like LOL.

Personally, I feel like sexual orientation is a private thing that is really no one's business. Despite that, I still go to pride parades and rallies and wear a pridecenter.org bracelet because OTHER PEOPLE have made my personal life a public issue, and I'm going to stand up for myself. I feel that we are being forced to do this because homophobes are putting it out there as a choice. Not a choice as in making steps to figure out what you are/how you feel, but as in "I'm going to be attracted to women instead of men." and then they act like we can change it.

I can tell you, I would not choose to be this way, just because it doesn't fit my 'mold' of what I wanted for my life. I'm hoping that as I get older and more comfortable with myself, it will be something that I will embrace in a better fashion.

Anyone who says it's a choice that you can change is absolutely ignorant (I'm not talking about your opinion, I'm talking about people who say that it is a very conscious, wake up one day and make a choice decision). I just read Chely Wright's book 'Like Me' and I want to force anyone who believes we choose this to read that book and then get back to me. it is NOT a conscious decision.

There is DEFINITELY a process you have to go through before you realize that your sexual orientation is not what you expected/what everyone else expected. But having to go through a mental process and ultimately, maybe even make a decision one way or the other is not the same thing as making a choice. Making a choice is when you are one way and choose to go a different way, IMO.

I do think there are some people who choose to be gay and will change their mind later in life. I see it every day in my high school. Right now, especially in NJ/on the east coast/in progressive areas, it is a 'fad.' because it is the current civil rights fight, there are a lot of hipsters who try to get attention and claim to be gay when they are definitely, absolutely not. These kinds of people are the ones who make it hard for the rest of us and make the anti's believe that it is a choice that we make. HOWEVER, even if it IS a choice for some people, that doesn't make it wrong and certainly does not give anyone the right to take away human rights.

Oh, and my biggest pet peeve is people who say "How do you know you're gay if you've never been with a guy/girl?" first of all, STFU. Second of all, how did you know you were straight?

Sorry for deviating from the point of your thread. But I've given this great thought myself because I always 'thought' I was straight until I realized I wasn't. That made me question whether or not it was a subconcious choice, and I've come to the conclusion that it was definitely not. I don't know that we're "Born this Way" just because I don't think that children are capable of sexual attraction one way or the other. I do think it's something that develops as we age.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2011 06:16PM by givemethismoment.

I don't think sexuality can be defined in absolute terms. Take a look at the Kinsey scale. Sexuality is fluid (sometimes a LOT of fluid, heh) and isn't cut and dry. I'm gay- I can't recall ever making a conscious choice in the matter, I just always found myself attracted to men. Having said that, are there women out there that have piqued my penis? Sure. But if I had one of those women, and a really hot guy in front of me at the same time, which would I choose? The man- but did I choose to be ATTRACTED to the man? Not that I can recall, but I doubt it.

As far as bisexuality goes, who knows? I don't identify as bisexual so who am I to say it doesn't exist? I am happy you are comfortable in your own skin though.

Just to add my own 2 cents ...

My sexuality was never a choice. I was born and raised mormon, went on a mission, graduated from BYU, etc. I've known I'm gay my whole life, but it took a long time to be able to admit it to myself (if that makes any sense).

I really started dealing with it after college. I went through a severe depression, suicide attempts, cutting, the whole nine yards. I was in therapy for 10 years. I really, really, really wanted to be attracted to women. And it never happened, no matter how hard I tried. I never found happiness until I finally accepted myself exactly the way I am.

I don't agree with your gay friend who thinks bisexuality doesn't exist. It surprised the hell out of me when I finally came out as gay. There's no way I'm going to question anyone else's experiences. I think this attitude might come from gay guys who tell themselves they're bi until they have the guts to come out of the closet.

There's another way of looking at sexuality that I like. It's not just about who you want to have sex with. It also includes who you want to spend your life with during the majority of the time (sad to say) you're not having sex. I have quite a few close female friends, and I value their friendships quite highly. But there's no way I can picture myself spending a lifetime with any them. I feel the most comfortable and content and safe when I'm with my boyfriend/partner. I'd feel like a part of me is missing if he wasn't in my life.

I think, Foreverhuman, that you have one of the healthiest attitudes toward sexuality I've ever seen. You've figured things out for yourself without all the self-judgement some of us go through. And you don't have a judgemental attitude toward others. Way to go.

Sexuality is a complicated thing. It has many levels. There is what you find sexually stimulating and aroused by. There is the gender roles you want to play. There is the stigmas that you want to avoid, etc.

There are some videos on the net that prove that a guy getting a blow job from what he thinks is a woman, but is really a guy, feels really good to a heterosexual guy. Once he finds out that it was a guy, of course he's rightfully pissed. So the sex feels good regardless. It's the rest that is the problem.

Most guys can't get over the stigma of homosexual sex. If you aren't naturally Gay, or have gotten used to the idea, it's revolting. Similar to how we think hairy legs and underarms on women is revolting, but some Europeans don't. But all that said, the "money shot" in heterosexual porn can't just be there for the benefit of woman viewers.

So everything is on a scale with a thousand shades of gray in between each end. So on the purely natural attraction scale, it's not just Gay, Bi, or straight. It's all the thousand points in between. And if you could separate out Gender Roles, Stigma, etc. people would fall in many places on that scale, and probably in a somewhat broad range.

Then you have the Gender Roles scale, and people are all over that scale with a thousand points on it.

What people find revolting can really change with knowledge, and immersion.

Mix all those scales up and blend them together, and you have a combined scale with a thousand points on it for the overall sexuality of a person.

I did research using Craigs List Ads in my graduate program. At first I was revolted by the Couple for a Man ads that were wanting a Bi guy. But I got used to them. In porn, I'm revolted by guy on guy stuff, but a little less so if a woman has most of the involvement. I have no idea where I'd be without cultural conditioning. Homosexual sex was a lot more common in ancient Greece, and wasn't stigmatized like it is here. Perhaps we'd be very similar, absent the social stigma?

I would assume that the more closed minded you are, the more revolting homosexual sex would be, and the further down the scale you would fall. But take the same guy and raise him in a more open society, and he'd probably move further towards the middle.

A lot of Heterosexual guys have homosexual sex in prison, and they just don't think it counts. Somehow they got over their revolting, and enjoyed it(consensual, not rape). In prison it isn't as stigmatized.

I've never been attracted to guys, but who knows where I'd be if I was brought up in another society. For some, the pull is so strong that nothing would dissuade them ie born with it. Some arent' born with it, but can learn to like it. And tons of other combinations.