I know this is a bit off topic for Rfm, but in terms of "spiritual abuse" I can't think of anything worse than a con woman telling people in distress she can talk to your dead realtive etc.

Complete and total scam. TLC should be sued for promoting a scam and fraud for making money from it. This lady should be in jail.

She is pretty popular for being a 'total scam' ----- maybe since it is so 'obvious' you could point it out to her and the tv and radio programs she has appeared on or the thousands of people she has given readings to. I think on the other thread your assumption on climate change could be off also ---- just for the record. Really hope you do not invest based on what is so 'obvious' to you.

I'll admit mediums can make mistakes but I think she has a pretty good record. Sure, some people can be unsatisfied with their readings or say it was a 'cold' reading only. But lets see some broad stats she has been doing this for years with thousands of clients lets get a survey to show how unsatisfied they are and claim she didn't get anything or much right. I recognize people can take people to court and claim 'fraud' but lets see that proven ----- I believe that would be the better indication.

Oh, I didn't notice 'any' support for your 'obvious' claims. Oh, I forgot 'atheists --- the spiritual "know nothings" on this board don't have to have any support or hedge and say they believe or think for any 'obviously unsupportable claims' they make ----- Sorry my mistake!



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2015 11:07AM by spiritist.

Until psychics, mediums and anyone else claiming paranormal powers can demonstrate their claimed abilities under controlled conditions, they will never have any credibility accept among their followers. And yes, those uncritical followers will continue lending their support through bearing their testimonials, and more importantly, offering up their financial support.

I just made my negative comments because I think it is totally 'irresponsible' for any op to cite absolutely 'nothing' to support such outlandish claims such as ----- "but in terms of "spiritual abuse" I can't think of anything worse than a con woman telling people in distress she can talk to your dead realtive etc.

Complete and total scam. TLC should be sued for promoting a scam and fraud for making money from it. This lady should be in jail."

Why would any 'new' person reading such 'unsupported crap' in the op come out with any other opinion than ---- what a waste of time reading what "hating" exmos say and few if any challenge them?

spiritist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> She is pretty popular for being a 'total scam'
> ----- maybe since it is so 'obvious' you could
> point it out to her and the tv and radio programs
> she has appeared on or the thousands of people she
> has given readings to. I think on the other thread
> your assumption on climate change could be off
> also ---- just for the record. Really hope you do
> not invest based on what is so 'obvious' to you.
>
>
> I'll admit mediums can make mistakes but I think
> she has a pretty good record. Sure, some people
> can be unsatisfied with their readings or say it
> was a 'cold' reading only. But lets see some
> broad stats she has been doing this for years with
> thousands of clients lets get a survey to show how
> unsatisfied they are and claim she didn't get
> anything or much right. I recognize people can
> take people to court and claim 'fraud' but lets
> see that proven ----- I believe that would be the
> better indication.
>
> Oh, I didn't notice 'any' support for your
> 'obvious' claims. Oh, I forgot 'atheists --- the
> spiritual "no nothings" on this board don't have
> to have any support for any 'obviously
> unsupportable claims' they make ----- Sorry my
> mistake!

She appears to be relying on the Barnum Effect or telling people information that is vague enough that it can apply to anyone:

http://psych.fullerton.edu/mbirnbaum/psych101/barnum_demo.htm


When dealing with those who seem to have special, mystical powers, you also need to be careful of outright fraud such as the case with Peter Popoff. He was a televangelist that had an informant transmitting information to him via a radio that looked like a hearing aid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX9S1b9KTrg

spiritist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> She is pretty popular for being a 'total scam'


So was (is) Joseph Smith.
Appeal to popularity fallacy.

> ----- maybe since it is so 'obvious' you could
> point it out to her and the tv and radio programs
> she has appeared on or the thousands of people she
> has given readings to.

She uses cold reading and zeroing in. Additionally, she can't pass a single objective, controlled test to show she can actually do ANY of the things she claims to be able to do.
Total scam is appropriate.

> I'll admit mediums can make mistakes but I think
> she has a pretty good record.

No, she doesn't. She has no record of success, the only "record" is confirmation-biased "hits" based on cold reading techniques. No evidence shows any ability of any kind other than cold reading.


> But lets see some
> broad stats she has been doing this for years with
> thousands of clients lets get a survey to show how
> unsatisfied they are...

How "satisfied" her clients are or aren't is irrelevant to whether or not she can do what she claims. She can't.


> I recognize people can
> take people to court and claim 'fraud' but lets
> see that proven ----- I believe that would be the
> better indication.

No evidence shows her correct, so her claims are worthless. It's the rankest fallacy to think "her claims are true unless you can prove they aren't."

> Oh, I forgot 'atheists --- the
> spiritual "know nothings" on this board don't have
> to have any support or hedge and say they believe
> or think for any 'obviously unsupportable claims'
> they make ----- Sorry my mistake!

Ad-hominem fallacy, in a rather obvious and desperate attempt to shift the burden of proof and claim those who approach things rationally are of "bad character."

notice how science deniers label your facts as "assumptions".

I guess if one believes that phoney "spirit" crap one will believe anything.

A quick Google search indicates that the OP is far from alone in calling shenanigans on this woman. There are even articles written by "believers" who think she's full of dogshit.

I prefer the Manhattan Extra Large.

My husband was having a discussion in a facebook group about this woman today. Apparently she is under investigation for fraud.

He was laughing because someone commented "I bet she didn't see THIS coming!"

I find it kinda funny that someone ON THIS FORUM is claiming that there must be something to her since "She is pretty popular for being a 'total scam'"

Oh the gawdamned F'ing irony

I dont know much about this particular tart, other than they based a fictional TV series vaguely on her.

The fact is that mediums rely on cold and warm reading (where they actively seek out information on clients before the 'reading')

I guess some mediums - like our own 'spiritist' - may actually believe in their own minds, that there is something to this nonsense...... but the major driving factor with these people is $$ ---- or,in the case of the big names, like Sylvia Browne that would be $$$$$$$

Sorry, in 'spiritual' matters I do not support anyone as a 'true medium, psychic, or anything else as I haven't met them and don't know them' but definitely support that people can communicate with the other side, see the future, etc..

I only believe that because I have personally done it ----- or maybe should say I believe I have done it and continue to document my success rate at various skills. Let me be clear though I have not been a medium for people I do not know and their departed loved ones have not come to me and told me I need to help them communicate a message ----- that is why my hesitation to totally support any medium even though they impress me. I believe I have had medium experiences for myself involving passed people I knew.

Unfortunately, I do not have a perfect record in all 'metaphysical' skills, especially like predicting future events ----- I think there are reasons and I am working on some issues. However, I believe my stats are showing I am improving.

However, I believe I do have a perfect record in a number of what I believe were 'spirit involved' events. I and many others, I have met, have been 'warned of danger' that was proved to be true, many have been given messages that again have proved to be valid.

Am I satisfied and can say I know 100% what I believe metaphysically is true ------ unfortunately no. I have only been really deep into it around a year (with experiences going back many years) we will see what happens with more time and more experimentation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2015 12:13PM by spiritist.

I happen to believe in mediumship, but even if one accepts her only as a cold reader, she is really quite good at it. Yes, many of her hits are general in nature (i.e. many people carry a photo of their loved one in their wallet,) but others are quite specific. She does comfort the people that she works with, even if they start out disbelieving. And while the better known mediums are not exactly inexpensive, neither do they extort huge sums of money out of people. Most people go once and they're finished with it. You might spend that much going out to dinner, or a big-name concert, or a casino, or a NASCAR race, or many other forms of entertainment.

Many people are not aware that the well-known (and now late) Sylvia Brown added an "e" on the end of her name becoming Sylvia Browne so that internet searchers would not find the record of her fraud conviction.

Her little ploy worked for awhile until Wikipedia included it in their webpage on Sylvia Browne: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvia_Browne.

So much for honesty and integrity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2015 09:21AM by Templar.

Sorry to say but don't talk the talk of 'honest and integrity' without doing the 'walk' ------- you know this thread is about 'talking to dead people' and has almost nothing to do with honesty or integrity.

Granted you provided a link to support your comment that this person was convicted of 'fraud'. However, you know the intelligence level on this board and that most would not go there and read 'what fraud' you were referring to.

It was 'securities fraud and grand larceny' ---- nothing to do with talking to dead people ------ like you want to infer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2015 01:01PM by spiritist.

"Securities fraud, also known as stock fraud and investment fraud, is a deceptive practice in the stock or commodities markets that induces investors to make purchase or sale decisions on the basis of false information, frequently resulting in losses, in violation of securities laws.[1]"

I would expect that if would knew the facts, that the inducement used by Ms. Browne to get her victim to invest $20,000 to cover the immediate operating expenses of the gold mine was that she, Ms. Browne, had 'spiritual guidance' with regard to the location of gold. It simply makes sense that the victim would place faith in Ms. Browne based on a perceived track record, and that track record was not gold mining, it was spiritualism fraud.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm wondering if you can at least see the logic of my view.

You jumped to your own conclusion. I implied nothing other than the fact that Sylvia changed the spelling of her last name so individuals would not find out that she was sentenced for fraud. The reason for the conviction, in my mind, is immaterial.

I personally knew Dal (her former husband) and Sylvia (before she was famous) and some members of her church. In my opinion, she was a fake and was proven to be such when she incorrectly informed parents in two separately recorded incidences that their child was dead when it clearly was later shown to be false.

Going to a medium is basically paying someone to jerk you off. It is a modest abstraction of the sex trade, where the medium sells fantasy.

^^^ What Brother Of Jerry said

My Question is: Why do psychics have to advertise their conventions?

My experience with understanding the TV frauds came when I used to watch John Edward's show, Crossing Over.

I had been watching the show for a while and then there was a TV show where a man explained how Edward did his readings. He had plants in the line-up before the show. The plants would say something like, "I'm hoping to connect with my Uncle David. How about you?" During the conversation, they would discover where these people would be seated. "Oh, maybe we will be sitting together."

The plants would go and write everything they could remember onto colour-coded cards.

The 'medium' would memorize these cards. If the card was orange, then a small piece of orange tape would be placed on the leg of the chair the person would be sitting in, who corresponded with that information.

I'd watched that show and thought, "Hmm. Interesting." But then one day I was watching Edward's show and he was just getting someone's reading totally wrong. He was getting angry with the person, "Yes, you are! Yes, that does match. Go home and think about it."

Suddenly he goes, "Wait a minute. Did you switch seats with someone?" The person looked shocked and said, "Why, yes, I did! I switched with that lady over there, so that she could sit with her husband." At least I think it was a husband. It has been quite a few years now.

Anyway, he turns to the lady who'd originally owned that seat and went, "Oh! So this reading is for you." The audience went, "Oohh, ahhh," and clapped at his brilliance. I, on the other hand, was standing there with my jaw hanging open, going, "Aha! Busted!!!!" I was disillusioned, but grateful to know the truth, so that I never fell for such trickery.

I'm sure that the Long Island Medium has all sorts of similar tricks up her sleeve. I've since come to call such people, especially the likes of Sylvia Browne, as Grief Vampires, preying on the grieving and the vulnerable for money. The fees they charge are criminal.

And, of course, what is later shown on TV are highly edited versions of what John Edwards and Sylvia Brown had actually said and done. The "hits" (which even on a random "cold reading" basis would occur) are especially highlighted.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2015 12:19PM by Templar.

It all reminds me of Patriarchal Blessings.

Yeah, that's what I read about the Long Island Medium. There are hours and hours of footage which ends up on the cutting room floor. They are boring bits of footage and the misses which lead up to that one hit, which ends up being shown on the TV.

I wish that I could be a "real" psychic.

I guarantee the first thing that would happen is that I would win the lottery three consecutive times.

That would derail most of the arguments to the effect that I was a con artist scamming the hapless masses for a few coins.

If there are any "real psychics" out there who want to tell me what the six magic numbers will be in the next drawing, I would be happy to give you half of my winnings!

Same here!

I've said this on here before, but I'll repeat it again...like spiritist, I've had my own experiences of giving messages from departed loved ones. There has been no "cold reading" going on. I was on an Internet site where people can learn and practice psychic and mediumship abilities. I was in a chat room with people I only knew by screen name. Some I had never seen in the chat room before. I'll just give you some examples: for one lady I had her dad come through. He was standing by a train and he was speaking with Irish slang ("my wee lassie" type stuff). She confirmed that he was from Ireland and he did work for the railroad. There was more messages after that from him to her.

In another case, I had the spirit of a young woman who was eager to talk to her friend. At first I thought it was a sister because it "felt" like it, but turns out it was a friend who had passed. I felt her personality and was able to describe it. I described a very specific bracelet she had. I was able to give her nickname and also her name.

I recorded these and many other messages I gave because I was more incredulous than the people around me. I didn't know how I was doing it, but these people assured me that the information was correct.

I no longer use that website, but still occasionally get messages for people. I don't understand it, but I will stand by the fact that what I'm saying is true. I didn't leave Mormonism to live some other lie, and my integrity is very important to me.

So, there's lots of fraud out there and lots of good reasons to think it's all fraud, but I will stand with spiritist and Templar and say there is also truth in this.

"Cold reading" doesn't always involve "fraud." You can do it while believing you're not doing it. That doesn't mean you're getting messages from dead people, though.

And you may believe it's "true," but an objective evaluation of "hits" and "misses" will show that it's not -- that you're getting lucky, acting on information given and building on it, and simply mistaken about the *source* of your "messages."

Those who KNOW they're cold-reading and work their "marks" are frauds. Those that don't may be entirely sincere, but still aren't channeling dead people.

You have had better 'medium' experiences for others than me ---- thanks for sharing!

I can use techniques to get relatives and friends and even channeled a spirit guide, but never yet has a 'spirit' come to me and said they would like to deliver a message to another person. Even though I believe I have said I am open to that if I can 'help or bring relief' to someone suffering a loss.

I have attended a few funerals and been in areas where I meet other people likely to have lost others but never happened to me yet. Your story brings me hope because I honestly wouldn't mind 'helping' many others using these 'skills'.

Now I am using and developing what skills I seem to have periodically to benefit myself and to a minor degree some of my family and relatives around me.

If you can remember please list the website you used where you had 'medium' experiences. I would really be interested in trying to 'help' others through a medium technique that worked for someone to get other's relatives coming through.

If any of you practitioners of the supernatural could speak to my grandpa and ask him what his biggest regret in life was, I'd really like to know the answer. But first, in order to prove you're really talking to him, you'll need to get him to relay his joke regarding Joseph Smith and tea. If you can tell me that joke, I'll believe everything else you have to say.

how come psychics are all not filthy rich from winning gambling bets ?

Dave, I have been practicing calling 8 indexes in the market each day using different techniques.

I have around a 90% accuracy rate so far but keep adding and modifying techniques. So yes I am trying to use 'whatever gift I have' to my benefit.

The only problem is when I invest much money my accuracy rate goes down to around 75% ---- yes I still do make money at 75%.

I believe it is 'ego' --- I apparently have one and it probably shows. That is why the Randi challenge is an issue as it causes an 'ego' problem which can override the 'subtle' messages we sense.

Therefore, I have to use techniques that make it 'just a game for fun' or the ego comes in. I have good techniques to call the market but when I invest, and I/subconscious knows when that is likely, my techniques appears to be impacted. I am getting 'help' on this so we will see what the future holds.

But, I agree totally, a 'real psychic' does not need to run a scam if they can control their 'egos'.

I have 100% accuracy calling stock market indexes.
Don't believe me? That's because you're closed-minded.
And don't dare ask me for any evidence of my claim, you just have to believe. I won't give you any evidence. Not...um...because I don't have any, but because...um...you're being closed-minded again not believing me without evidence. And don't dare dismiss my claim as nonsense because there's no evidence, I'll just call you names and insult you, you closed-minded unbelieving fool.

:)