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Posted by: Idahobanananotloggedin ( )
Date: May 04, 2016 07:59PM

Last night my teenage TBM daughter and I were talking.

At the end of our conversation ( where she proceeded to tell me that her TBM dad was becoming more of a tight-a** regarding rules and church stuff), I had a really simple way to explain the Mormon paradigm to her come to mind.

Basically - for Mormons, you're a good person if you obey.

For other moral people, you're a good person if you're kind to others, act with integrity, and try to do no harm.

Basically - when we assume we're only good if we obey, we put our power into the hands of an authority figure. And then we let that authority figure decide what's good for us. And they don't even know us! And that authority figure -if it's a person and not a deity- is fallible and can make mistakes. So if you're going to be living by mistakes, why not make your own instead of someone else's ?

When we decide for ourselves where our ethical and moral values lie, we act from a space of freedom and true personal accountability and power. Our self esteem is also then dependent on us and not some arbitrary set of rules and regulations.

This really sat well with her.
And I won't be surprised if she eventually chooses out of the church.

1 kid down. 2 to go.

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Posted by: wine country girl ( )
Date: May 04, 2016 08:12PM


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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: May 04, 2016 08:24PM

Or in other words, "Here's a novel idea, you have a brain, why not use it?"

Autonomy. What concept! And, I do believe one that could be very seductive for the young.

Good for you. Good for your daughter.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 04, 2016 10:08PM

Great explanation. Counterpoint that with the late "great" Boyd of Packer's explanation.

"Perhaps the greatest discovery of my life, without question the greatest commitment, came when finally I had the confidence in God that I would loan or yield my agency to him— without compulsion or pressure, without any duress, as a single individual alone, by myself, no counterfeiting, nothing expected other than the privilege. In a sense, speaking figuratively, to take one’s agency, that precious gift which the scriptures make plain is essential to life itself, and say, ‘I will do as you direct,’ is afterward to learn that in so doing you possess it all the more." ("Obedience", Boyd K. Packer, BYU Devotional Dec 1971)

If this isn't total submission to leaders I don't know what is. One has more possession of their free will in loaning it. If this isn't calling black white I don't know what is.

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Posted by: idahobanananotloggedin ( )
Date: May 05, 2016 12:18PM

This is exactly the kind of twisting that is so common in TSCC.

Turning your will over to God and seeking direction sounds like a laudable goal.

But reading between the lines: the Leaders = God's thoughts and authority.

It's always discouraged to find your own connection with God. The Leaders already have that truth. So - giving your will over to the leaders is the end game.

It's a mind f**k that most TBMs just don't see.

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: May 04, 2016 10:31PM

I remember when I was a Mormon child the word the adults used against us was reverence. Reverence meant quietly doing as you're told. Sit quietly for hours. No questioning anything, take it as you're told. My little feet kicked at the bench in frustration, and I was slapped.

Obedience is reverence for adults. It's much easier as an adult to sit still, but the mind is restless. Who says that that creepy old guy talks to God? Anyone preaching obedience to you is an oppressor, unless you're being paid, and sometimes even then.

The real word is oppression.

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Posted by: idahobanananotloggedin ( )
Date: May 05, 2016 12:20PM

I like that. Obedience = oppression.

You subvert your will for someone else's gain.

Unless there's gain in it for you, it basically means you give up being you.

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Posted by: Templar ( )
Date: May 05, 2016 12:21PM

The fundamental control used by cults is unquestioning obedience.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2016 12:21PM by Templar.

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Posted by: seekyr ( )
Date: May 05, 2016 12:25PM

So thoughtfully expressed!

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Posted by: NormaRae ( )
Date: May 05, 2016 01:58PM

Such a great observation. Yes, I know mormons who are NOT good people. They are not nice, they are not honest, they have no ethics, they make fun of everyone they deem beneath them (which in their minds is almost everyone, in my mind it's basically some high-profile killers and some politicians).

But they are obedient. They go to church, they pay (or claim to pay) their 10% (even on what they defraud the government out of) and they attended all of their children's weddings. But the word integrity is no where in their paradigm.

So on Planet Mormon, they're the "good" people. On planet Earth they are the slugs.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 05, 2016 02:13PM

Often I believe, what a person wants to be and what they are are at odds internally. Shelving full of doubts doesn't matter. They have bought hook, line, and sinker these idealized myths and think that what they want is possible and proceed to make themselves and others suffer in attempting to get the feeling that they are what they want to be.

IT is a fools errand if their ever was one and Mormonism has made a religion out of it with promises of becoming gods, forever families, a wealth of blessings and miracles, and true happiness.

No amount of obedience to an organization will make a person into what they want to be if it will never jive with what they are.

Bad people can put lipstick of The Lord on their piggish ways all they want but until they recognize the pig in the mirror not amount of moralizing dress up will make them any less piggish.

If God has a plan for you it will have to be tailored to your unique individuality and won't come boxed up in a book or church. It can't. We are the book and to attempt to be who we are we have to be open books.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: May 05, 2016 02:38PM

In a related thought, I like the way Penn Gillette puts it: In religion you do good because your god commands you to, but if you're non-religious you do good because it's the right thing to do.

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Posted by: moremany ( )
Date: May 05, 2016 03:35PM

The SSV (Steel Small Voice) in my head and the men and women preaching to obey, follow blindly or listen to them (no matter what) were always at odds.

My consciousness tells me right while Mormonism leads one wrong. When it feels wrong it is wrong. Obey yourself to do the right thing.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 05, 2016 07:00PM

SSV - putting their gun to your head from the inside.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: May 05, 2016 06:54PM

Obedience is doing what you're told no matter what is right.

Morality is doing what's right no matter what you are told.

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Posted by: Doubting Thomas ( )
Date: May 05, 2016 07:09PM

Each parent has the right to teach their children the philosophies and beliefs they subscribe to and try to live by.

A child has the right to take the best and leave the rest.

Don't take it personally if she stays or leaves Mormonism. It's her choice.

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