And your point is? That still doesn't clarify which version of the "christian" Christ to compare mormon's to.
Also, while mormonism is the predominant religion that teaches that they are brothers, there are religions that believe that Christ was the son of "God", therefore created by "God"... Since "God" created everything including Satan, they somehow figure out how to make two creations by God not related, I suppose he's all powerful, so he just hand waves the relationship away.
I bet if I had the time to do your research for you (I don't, and I don't care to) I'm sure I could find another christian religion that teaches that they are related. JS didn't come up with anything on his own, he stole it from somewhere.
How so? I felt comfortable worshipping in a wide variety of churches over the years, both Catholic and Protestant. Since they all draw from the New Testament, I didn't detect any differences to speak of.
Didn't Jesus knock down an entire city in the BoM? Now that's a badass Jesus!
One for every denomination is a pretty sweeping statement, Perhaps you could explain the differences between, say, Baptists,Methodists,pentacostals, and Episcopalians. As to the difference between the Mormon Jesus and the Christian Jesus, it starts with a fundamental difference. The Jesus of mormonism is a created being, spirit son of god, while the Jesus of Christianity is god and has always been god.
Nice, respond to my sweeping statement by making a sweeping statement of your own. Just look at this thread and see that people can not agree on all kinds of aspects of what makes up the Christianity version of "Jesus"
kentish Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > One for every denomination is a pretty sweeping > statement, Perhaps you could explain the > differences between, say, > Baptists,Methodists,pentacostals, and > Episcopalians. As to the difference between the > Mormon Jesus and the Christian Jesus, it starts > with a fundamental difference. The Jesus of > mormonism is a created being, spirit son of god, > while the Jesus of Christianity is god and has > always been god.
Baptists: Strict theologians relying almost exclusively on the Bible. A true reformation sect. To some extent they mirror the popular caricature of the Pharisees.
Methodists: Less reliance on the scriptures creating more a reason based theology. Hard emphasis on out reach and ministerial work.
Pentecostals: The spiritual lot, spiritual gifts and what not. They have a lot of fun and no fun at the same time. Interestingly, Pentecostals are one of the "works" sects that claim that salvation can be lost trough sin.
Episcopalian: Catholic Protestants.
The real irony of your statement is that the foundational doctrine of Christianity is only that doctrine that survived the first seven Ecumenical Councils. And even then Arianism and other heretical teachings didn't go away. The Jesus of Christianity once set in stone was set in stone and yet of the first seven Ecumenical Councils do you know how many dealt with the nature and divinity of Jesus? Seven
And he had/has multiple wives and lots of kids and is a direct ancestor of Joseph Smith, and probably all of the upper echelon of Mormon theocracy. At least, of all of the ones that really count.
Sconer, I'm going to try to answer your question from only my point of view, not speaking to or for "every" Christian religion. For brevity, "X" will be Christian Jesus and "M" will be Mormon Jesus.
I consider neither superior to the other.
X says to pray and believe the Nicene creed*, and you are saved. No good works, no tithing, no ceremonies required.
X says that if you don't do this, you are condemned to a burning lake of fire.
X says that there is only one god, a trinity, the father, son and holy ghost. No other gods, not before or after life.
X says there is only one heaven, but it has "many rooms."
M insults X in the idea that the crucifixion does not offer complete salvation, and is a gift that cannot he earned. It's like M saying that what X did was not enough.
That should he enough to start looking into religion.
It's not okay that most US citizens are so unknowing of the history and meanings of the faiths on which they plan their lives and make very important decisions. It's sad that religious leaders impose ignorance to enslave their followers, when all that most of the followers want is to live righteous lives. The leaders tell them that "stupid" (isolated and uneducated in history) makes them "special," and doing as ordered is the only way to heaven.
That's true of almost every dogmatic religion.
Very sad.
*The Nicene Creed was the result and basis of how men decided on what god was made of, and chose which writings to include in the newly codified "Bible." It is a very interesting bit of history, with a lot of power-mongering and many wars. Most X religions modify it in small, but what they consider to be important ways, and then build the sect's doctrine on that. You cannot be considered educated if you don't know the history of Christianity. It is too great a factor in world history, the history of civilization.
trying Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > X says to pray and believe the Nicene creed*, and > you are saved. No good works, no tithing, no > ceremonies required.
This is not necessarily true for the largest denomination. Catholicism is very much focused on works, just with less lip service. As well as ceremony and ritual. Try and convince a TBC that they are living up to the standards of their church without baptism, penitence, and communion or any of the other quasi mandated sacraments.
> > X says that if you don't do this, you are > condemned to a burning lake of fire.
Also not true. Hell is described idiomatically as a place of fire and brimstone but is in reality the same as Mormonism (with less complexity). Hell is simply the eternal resting place of sinners. The only hellish part of it being that you are not with god. The burning lake of fire folks are just as rare as Mormons.
> > X says that there is only one god, a trinity, the > father, son and holy ghost. No other gods, not > before or after life.
Also not true. They say one thing and do another. There is a strong tendency towards the divinity of Mary. There is an equal tendency to hero worship. And there is an equal tendency to confusion about the nature of god. The only difference between the two is a label.
> > X says there is only one heaven, but it has "many > rooms."
Same with Mormonism.
> > M insults X in the idea that the crucifixion does > not offer complete salvation, and is a gift that > cannot he earned. It's like M saying that what X > did was not enough.
Tomato or tomato. X claims it as an insult when there isn't much distinction. I would even go so far as to say that M's distinction is the more respectful of the two. I consider it trite but M's platitude about celebrating life and not death is quite appealing. Regardless both believe that Jesus completed the prerequisites of salvation and both believe that something must happen to claim salvation.
>>This is not necessarily true for the largest denomination. Catholicism is very much focused on works, just with less lip service.
You don't need works to be saved in Catholicism. Being saved comes from faith alone. You can accept Jesus as your savior one minute before you die and be good to go.
Ah, but you are pointing out a distinction that I didn't make.
The Catholic church of course preaches that one is saved by faith. However it also teaches that one is damned by sin. This is also the stance of most Orthodox sects. Thus the high level of emphasis on the sacraments. As well as items like indulgences.
Most Protestant sects teach something else. They teach that either salvation once granted by faith cannot be lost, or that it is lost by losing faith.
You get the distinction? The reformers got the distinction and this specific item was at the root of the Reformation.
Both Catholics and Protestants believe you are saved by faith,yes, but also believe hat if you are not doing good works as a result of that faith that your faith is not real. As for hell, many liberal Christians, both Catholic and Protestant, believe hell is separation from God, not a place of torture, that it is reserved for only the most evil and that it could even be empty. Some reject the idea altogether.Also,they may believe in deathbed repentance, but presumably an all knowing God can figure out if the repentance and faith are real.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2016 07:51PM by bona dea.
bona dea Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Both Catholics and Protestants believe you are > saved by faith,yes, but also believe hat if you > are not doing good works as a result of that faith > that your faith is not real.
A gross oversimplification that cannot be correct when stated that way. Good works are a indication of faith, not an indication of it's sincerity. Regardless, the Catholic obsession with works is not in the good ones but the bad ones. A Catholic believes that salvation is lost by bad works. Specifically by bad works.
A Protestant believes that faith secures salvation regardless of bad works. The presence of bad works can also not be an indicator of the lack of faith since only Jesus is capable of judging that.
Thus for Catholics by faith you are saved and by works you are damned. For Protestants by faith you are saved and by Jesus you are damned. I cannot stress the greatness of this chasm and the fact that many don't recognize it is strange.
Disagree totally. You seem to look at the issue through the lens of Mormonism.You are parroting exactly what I learned about the subject from Mormons. Yeah, they are the great experts on other religions and should be seen as the final authority. Not! You might want to discuss the issue, you know, with actual Catholics or Protestants who are informed about their beliefs. Not all are.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2016 08:01PM by bona dea.
You bet I have a Mormon perspective. I was Mormon for more than 30 years. However, this is a matter of history not perspective. This is the very issue that was at the forefront of the Reformation.
In case you havent noticed, religions evolve and what they believed in Martin Luther's time is not what they believe now.This is another distinction not apreciated by Mormons.
So have Catholics gotten rid of the Sacrament of Penance?
I could just as easily say that you are wrong because your perspective is distorted. I tire of the "Mormon glasses" argument, it is used to often to dismiss thoughts instead of discussing them.
No, but what does that have to do with other things they have gotten rid of? As for penance,it only works if you are sincere and only God can judge that.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2016 08:18PM by bona dea.
trying, I found it interesting that of all the things you listed as "X (christian jesus) says," only one of them is actually something bible jesus says (the last one).
The rest are ideas that came along and were made "orthodoxy" long after "X" would have actually existed.
But you knew that, right? ;-)
And as someone already pointed out, there are quite a few "christian" sects (I only put that in quotes because I won't play the "who's a true christian" game) that are "works" believers, who don't go for the "salvation is a gift of grace" thing. Not just mormons. The grace vs. works debate was raging long before mormons existed...JS just picked a side!
MJ sent the flood, wrote the 10 Commandments, turned Lot's wife salty, and generally acted like the Douche of the Universe for thousands of years.
Then he stopped killing people for, oh, about 34 years. It really seemed like he'd turned a corner on his anger issues. He'd learned how to make friends rather than scaring the shit out of everyone. Things were looking up, but then Rome gave him a taste of his own old-time medicine, and boy howdy! did that ever set him off! But instead of taking it out on the Romans (who had done the actual crucifying), he burned and crushed and drowned huge numbers of people on the other side of the planet who *hadn't done anything to him* but were just going about living their lives.
Killing innocents is just more fun, I guess. Mormon Jesus is an asshole.
Mormon Jesus has been a god of countless planets over billions of years. He is unimaginably bored. Instead of calling him an asshole, maybe we should feel sorry for him. Maybe we should entertain his whims by doing whatever he tells us to, no matter how messed up it is. Put yourself in his shoes and ask yourself what you would want your minions to do.
Mormon Jesus is a Pharisee and is very concerned with things that Biblical Jesus never mentioned or even hinted about. Things like what you wear,the Mormon temple, appearance of evil The Word of Widom, beards,earrings,tattoos and on and on.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2016 05:05AM by bona dea.
The Mormon Jesus agrees with whatever beliefs Mormons are peddling. The Christian Jesus agrees with whatever beliefs the Christian peddling him believes.
There's the gun lovin' Jesus There's the gun hatin' Jesus There's the hippie Jesus There's the money making prosperity Jesus There's the 'Merica lovin' Jesus There's the abortion hating Jesus There's the pro choice Jesus There's the justice and vengeance Jesus There's the peace and nuts Jesus...
All Christian!
It's kind of like Barbie dolls- there's one for whatever personality you want Jesus to have! Except that you can actually see the Barbie when you're talking to it.
That's the beauty of having a God- he always agrees with your opinions! Instant validation. Instant pal.
That's true, Jesus is just like Barbie dolls, everyone fits him to whatever they want, whether it's having him hate the same people they do, or by making him Nordic instead of having olive skin as a person living in that part of the Mediterranean would have.
The differences are enormous: Mormonism teaches that Jesus is like us in that we both have the same biological father (God the Father) along with the devil. Jesus is just more advanced then we are because he has already achieved Godhood. Christianity teaches that Jesus is God and therefore is not like us. We were created in the image of God but the difference between us and God is huge. We cant become Gods like Mormon Jesus did.
Mormons teach at some point Jesus became a God. Christians teach that Jesus has always been God and will always be God.
Mormons teach that Jesus is a God out of many Gods. Christians teach that Jesus is part of the Trinity that is the only God.
Mormons teach that Jesus created this planet but not everything since he was born on a plant to a God and Goddess like everyone else. Christians teach that Jesus created the entire creation.
Mormons teach that Jesus paid for sin in the Garden of Gethsemane. Christians teach that Jesus paid for sin on the cross.
Mormons believe that Jesus is the biological son of God. Christians teach that the term son of God is metaphorical.
Mormons teach that God the Father had relations with Mary to produce Jesus. Christians teach that God cant have relations with Mary because God the Father is a spirit (doesnt have a body like the Holy Spirit) and that wouldnt make her a virgin anymore. Christians teach that the Holy Spirit caused the virgin pregnancy of Jesus.
Mormons teach that Jesus was a polygamist. Christians teach that Jesus was never married.