You know that saying "We see the world not as it is but as we are." I think that goes for my DH and our marriage as well. He made up his mind that his true love was some dreamy Molly Mormon ideal (his mom is a real screaming basket case) and then when I came along, cast me in the part. Unlike a real marriage in the normal world, where you get to know each other and then decide if you are in love before you marry, I've got the normal Mormon marriage. I've come to the conclusion that many Mormon young adults fall in love with the Peter Priesthood or Molly Mormon idealized, imaginary character and then just find a man/woman who can play that part well enough. The real wants and needs and dreams of the actor underneath be damned.

Case in point: Argument 21100 with DH goes like this. DH says "I do so much to make you happy and you are never grateful" to which I reply "But it's like you don't even see ME and what matters to ME." Then he says "I do my best but it's impossible because everything has to be your way." For the record, I don't have to have things MY way - I just have to have some established rules and structure. However, because of DH's crazy mom and his ADD, he's only comfortable with chaos. OK, sorry, I'm getting off my point here ....

And my point is that he gives me what he thinks his Molly should want and doesn't even notice the real me. He can't budge an inch to really give me what I need because he can't face the fact I'm anything other than the character I'm playing. And when he says I have to have things my way, what he means is that I've deviated from the part I was cast to play and he is going to shout me down until I get back on script. Then he wonders why I'm upset. Or, in other words, he's like the step-kid who visits for the weekend and refuses to follow any rules or play nicely with the other kids because you aren't his "real" mom. DH doesn't have to listen to me because I'm not his "real" wife. He's in love with the imaginary woman in his head, the one the New Era and Ensign promised him and he's going to be the husband SHE wants. He's already made up his mind about her and nothing I do or say will convince him I am in any way different than her, in any way need anything SHE shouldn't need or that I'm willing to give him anything SHE wouldn't give him. I can't win because he doesn't SEE me.

Is it my imagination or do Mormons tend to just live in their own airy, fairy heads far more so than non-LDS people? Or are non-Mo marriages like this too?

Non mormon marriages can be just like that..he had his ideas of what his wife should be like and do and do does she.

It can be a never ending battle and there's no winners.

Every culture has their ideals..big problems for a marriage which is why the divorce rate is so high.

You caught in a lose lose situation..

There are things you can do but change him isn't one of them.

stormy

Yeah, and living with him is incredibly stressful because I can't live in chaos and he won't work with me to change things. I can be endlessly patient when I see improvement, however slow, but he's pretty much decided that any change will be accidental and his idea, not an conscious attempt to improve the marriage. He's the one who made up this Molly Mo I'm supposed to be playing - he'll decide if it needs editing.

On the other hand, he's a pretty good father and he's been pretty good about all the ex-Mormon crap. He's got a lot of good qualities too but we never should have married because we are too different - kinda like you can be best friends with people who are your opposite as long as you don't ruin everything by getting too close/moving in together/getting romantic etc. We definitely ruined everything by following the Mormon rules for choosing an eternal spouse.

Sigh.

Sounds like that book Controlling People. The idea is that the controller is in love with a pretend person. When the real person moves out of that defined pretense, then there is trouble, difficulty because the controller's world of pretend is crumbling and this other person, the real other, is the evil presence causing the pretend person to disappear.

Definite sign of controlling relationship plus your statement "argument 21100" -- other person constantly criticizes/badgers you because you do not meet their standards. See verbalabuse.com, it may be helpful to you.

It seems people quickly try to pull out the verbal or emotional abuse card. I am not saying that it is wrong for whoever posted it to do so. You may be in an abusive relationship, who knows. But some people just fight, and that doesn't mean anyone is being abusive or controlling.

Would you consider a person who is married to an alcoholic that tries to get their spouse to quit drinking being controlling? No. When a spouse is trying to help the other be a better person, that isn't controlling. Maybe her husband's definition of a "better" person is different than hers. Maybe he goes about it all the wrong way. That doesn't make him an evil guy.

Like I said, I don't know these people, maybe he is abusive, but just because they don't see the world the same way doesn't make him a bad guy.

The ADD creates a moving target of what he wants. Whatever occurs to him at the moment. When you try to create structure and predictability (which you need!) he likely experiences it as you "getting your way." Also, if you are doing the structuring he may feel "subordinate," which people naturally tend not to like to start with AND conflicts with his Mormon male fantasy of what the relationship should be like.

I wonder if he has a fantasy that includes him having a magic wife that makes his ADD go away so he can feel in control of himself?

I worked for someone who has ADD and it drove me to incredible frustration. The target was constantly moving, instructions and priorities constantly changing and he regularly just "blew up" all the work I did. It was one of the most miserable experiences of my work life. I feel for you.

Yes, the ADD thing drives me crazy, as I'm very organized and scheduled but I come off as a disorganized basket case because I'm always running around fixing things for him. It's easy enough to say "make him take responsibility" but it's not going to happen and if I don't watch his back to some extent, it messes up my life too. It was worse before he was diagnosed though because I couldn't figure out what was going on. It was like being in the middle of a tornado when you have never heard of a tornado before. Now that I've read a bunch of books on ADD and he's gotten on some medication, things are a lot better. What I don't understand is the lack of attention he's paid to his diagnosis. He hasn't read any books on coping with the situation or attended any classes or received any counselling or tried to learn any coping skills. If it were me, I'd be all over it trying to find a way to manage my life better. People with ADD have a lot of amazing positive qualities if they manage their ADD. When they don't - when they try to fly by the seat of their pants - well, you can see why the divorce rate for diagnosed ADD sufferers is 80 percent.

I have always been nice. I am the quiet type unless I need to get things done. If he would be the one who deals with repair guys, etc., then I would not have to. So, yes, I get it done, and although I have a low-volume voice and am a little shy, I am usually very vocal until it gets done.

Have I changed in the last 30 years of marriage? Yes, I have. But, as I view it, it is for the better.

For him, I am obnoxiously loud, opinionated, and straight forward. I am a rock. I hold my own in an argument.

So... yes, I have changed. Too bad for him. He can find another Molly if he so chooses.

Good for you! Sounds like you have grown up and he can't handle it!

That's the ticket. MORON! It isn't my fault that he can't breath with permission from the suits. Gawd!

Bingo.
My TBM DW is a very giving person, and always doing things to try and make me happy. But, allot if it just comes off as manipulation because I'm not the person her action is intended for.
But when I was TBM I was way worse than her. I had fallen in love with an essentially mythical Molly, then when I met her and she seemed, up front, to be her, I just filled the rest in.
Then I had problems adjusting to new hers when my prefilled notion was off.
Specifically, and perhaps most stereotypically, I had filled her in as being meant for me all along. That made it hard to accept that she'd had flames and flings before me. I had a jealousy complex over shit that was many years passé, because in my mind she was meant for me the whole time.
Now that I'm openly inactive, the table is turned. She's now mourning the loss of what was "meant" to be, but actually being a good sport about loving things about me anyway. I think it's sinking in.
Well, and me too. She's still active and I wouldn't want her to give it up before she's ready on her own terms. Yes it bugs me that she takes church "obligations" for granted and wears herself out with it, but it'd be worse if I fought it.

Mormonism in particular sets couples up to regret how their spouse doesn't measure up to the mormon ideal.

But these feelings cut both ways. While one spouse yearns for a mormon template, the other yearns for a spouse who fits *their* ideal.

Marriages can flourish better when spouses accept and build on reality. This includes both flaws and unexpected and underappreciated stregths.

You hit the nail on the head CAgirl!

While non-mo marraiges can suffer similar experiences, there is something in the Morg culture that makes this type of relationship more likely. Non-mo individuals can create their own ideal spouse in their minds, but for non-mos it isn't constantly reinforced like it is in TSCC.

Members of TSCC are basically taught to believe that it doesn't matter WHO the individual is...only that they live according to the highest church standards.

It is a huge problem.

Lost Mystic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You hit the nail on the head CAgirl!
>
> While non-mo marraiges can suffer similar
> experiences, there is something in the Morg
> culture that makes this type of relationship more
> likely. Non-mo individuals can create their own
> ideal spouse in their minds, but for non-mos it
> isn't constantly reinforced like it is in TSCC.
>
> Members of TSCC are basically taught to believe
> that it doesn't matter WHO the individual
> is...only that they live according to the highest
> church standards.
>
> It is a huge problem.

I like this statement for an LDS social worker. I think she hits it on the head:

"With a strong emphasis in the Church on finding a right and wrong way for everything, identical religious thought and action between marriage partners is encouraged. Where there are differences, one spouse must be wrong. Ironically, any church that has many criteria for goodness sets up as many points for conflict as for congruency. (This is true generally: the more areas two or more people want to share, the more areas for potential disagreement emerge. This is why friendships often work better than marriages; we sharply limit the number of concerns which overlap with our friends and often become really close to only those with whom we agree.) We may be unwittingly sharpening a double-edged sword as we increase the number of rituals and programs a couple must share as a condition for a happy marriage." (Raynes, Marybeth. Issues of Intimacy: A Mixed Religious Marriage, Sunstone Magazine, March 1985, p. 40.)

Plus - I've thought about how Mormons aren't particular about who they marry as long as they are worthy and married in the temple. But when you put things that way, you realize the lack of attention to the individual continues into marriage.

''I realize there are many reasons why you may be hesitating to take that step of getting married. If you are concerned about providing financially for a wife and family, may I assure you that there is no shame in a couple having to scrimp and save. It is generally during these challenging times that you will grow closer together as you learn to sacrifice and to make difficult decisions. Perhaps you are afraid of making the wrong choice. To this I say that you need to exercise faith. Find someone with whom you can be compatible. Realize that you will not be able to anticipate every challenge which may arise, but be assured that almost anything can be worked out if you are resourceful and if you are committed to making your marriage work.''

This quote was the advice given by the Mormon Prophet TS Monson at this years General Conference.


'Find someone with whom you can be compatible'

Who says love is dead...

It's not just a Mormon problem, but I think Mormon marriages may have a particular vein running through them on the "ideal husband/wife" issue.

IMHO, if he's trying to guilt you with "I do so much to make you happy and you are never grateful," look at him and ask him what exactly you weren't grateful for. Ask him if he remembered that XYZ doesn't make you happy, and point out he's doing it to make himself happy.

A lot of times I find that this manipulation is similar to the "I've heard from lots of people that you've XYZ..." but when asked to specify people, they don't have any.

And I'd also be specific with him - "I'm not the Molly Mormon you were told you'd be married to, and it's unfair for you to expect me to play that part. I'm a real person."

Call him on the manipulation. You're an equal partner in this marriage.

There is a depth of love not attainable by TBMs because they are afraid that one day they will have to choose between their husband and their belief system. This is like an accident waiting to happen. This is a very emotionally strangling scenario..

I've very rarely heard a TBM sister admit publicly or bare teatimony or even own their marriage, or that they truly love their husband. It all depends on the level of acceptance the partner give to them and their beliefs

If you even express doubts then you have put a tare in the fabric of the marriage, and the spouse will expect further tares to follow.

JB

Your husband sounds like someone I know who - a man who has ruined one good relationship and entered into a few terrible ones because he has an image of the Perfect Soulmate in his head. When the real women in his life don't match up to the relationship in his head, he just ignores that reality for as long as he can, so he never has a real relationship with anyone. He's dating the image in his head. He and various women have all been miserable.

I suggest some good non-LDS marriage counseling.

I tried hard for 10 years to go "off the script" to let them know who I really was. I figured they'd want to know--after all I was their child! They wanted NO PART of it. They were SO uncomfortable going off the script.

I finally decided they were toxic to me and affecting my confidence and faith in myself, so I severely limited contact. It remains limited to this day.

At least you've identified the problem. Maybe marriage counseling with a non-LDS therapist can do some good. Best wishes to you both.

I had a lot of thoughts going through my head about my own marriage, my daughter's experiences with mormon guys (as well as my own years ago). Watching my parents' marriage.

I've said before that mormon marriages--a lot of the conflict I've seen created in them is about keeping track of who is being righteous enough. We've got to keep everyone on track for the CK. My mother bothered my dad endlessly about watching football on Sunday, even irrigating on Sunday. Mormonism gives people reasons to be endless nags.

Mormon guys drove me nuts--as they had this attitude of I was supposed to worship them and I chose not to. My ex actually appreciated who I was, my intelligence, my earning capability, etc., my independence. That is NOT something mormon men like. BUT then when we were married, he was doing his best to keep me line, keep up the facade--while he was cheating--but fighting the idea of being gay.

Then my daughter--she will start going out with a mormon guy and they TELL HER who she is--what she likes, etc., and the minute they start telling her who she is, she bails. And then wonders why she can't find someone.

You have to fit the mold in mormonism. If you aren't Molly and pretend to be Molly, you will never fit in.

Ironically, I learned this from going to marriage counseling, and the more I've thought about it, the more I think it's true. I include myself in that too. I think it's impossible to completely step outside of yourself.

In the context of the morg being true my controlling wife projects herself as the selfless martyr that's taking the bullet for Team Mormon and that I am a lump who is just too lazy to be concerned with "spiritual" things. In the context of the morg not being true I feel shunned by my wife and to a lesser degree by my kids to the degree that my virtues go unappreciated. What you get then is two realms of mutually exclusive projected consciousness - in other words little common ground between the parties.

However, I can muster enough empathy for the other party that I can at least entertain that this might be the case. My wife sees the situation in more polarized terms: me right, you wrong, and the obvious remedy is for me to get right with Team Mormon. It's just the sh!ts.

CA girl, I feel for you. I would like to be loved for who I am too, and not have it hinge on whether I fit somebody else's preconceived mold. Hang in there.

Along this line, I recommend the late Robert A. Johnson, who was a Jungian analyst. His books helped me a great deal in understanding projection and how it operates in my life. It was especially usual for helping me get a handle on how Mormonism operated in my psyche, although he doesn't address Mormonism itself. Projection is at the heart of Mormonism and Mormonism strongly encourages it.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_22?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=robert+johnson+jungian&sprefix=robert+johnson+jungian

all of which are based on empirical data from his decades-long research into relationships. Pay particular attention to what he has to say about problems: there are two kinds, solvable problems and unsolvable problems (perpetual problems). On average 69% of the problems a couple will run into are of the perpetual type! No matter who you are with!

Perpetual problems spring from the deeply-held values that the individuals have developed over their lives; it's how life seems right to them. These areas can include religion, parenting, handling money, what kinds of vacations to take, how much you want your in-laws involved, ad infinitum.

For example, my daughter-in-law (and her three little sisters and mom) were abandoned financially by their father/husband. They had to go on welfare, eat government cheese, and pick up cans along the road for spending money. My daughter-in-law graduated with a master's, with no student loans (she hates debt), no help from her family, and with $10,000 in the bank! She marries my son, whose idea of handling money is experience and adventure. For years they fought over the other not being like themselves, until they really got that if they had married someone just like themselves (which they were trying to get the other to be), well, my daughter-in-law would live in the same house all her life, never take vacation, etc. and sock it all away. My son, married to someone like himself, would be off in Zimbabwe with nothing in the bank, but he would own Great Gear!

When they finally understood why the other is the way they are, they could compromise and talk, not fight. And they realized that together they do have assets AND adventure, although not quite as much as each would like.

They know Gottman's concepts and bring them into their life.

However, perpetual problems don't end!! EVER!

I got a call a couple of nights ago from my daughter-in-law who said she had a marital problem: my son had come home with an expensive bottle of wine ($23) and a package of Oreo's. It was the unnecessay expenditure of the Oreos that really ticked her off. "He's just going to eat them; they'll be gone in two days!" Of course he's been buying and eating Oreo's for about 35 years now, including the entire length of their relationship. It will bug her when she's 80. ;)

Seek out Gottman!

Wow CA Girl, I am in a very similar boat. My wife married me knowing I didn't have a testimony and despite many other imperfections, however believing in an illusion that I would one day become her Peter Priesthood. I have since moved in the opposite direction and have to endure never-ending criticism and brow-beating. What a mistake!

How I wish I had a wife I could share a beer with... But now we have three boys. I'm stuck in a rut and having moved towards atheism, I'm now questioning monogomy. But it's difficult when your decision can affect your children.

I've read all of them carefully and it has really helped. I've also taken notes of the reading advice and I think that will help too. Right now, we can't afford to go to a marriage counselor but that should resolve itself by the end of summer. I would really like to do that because I just feel like he isn't hearing me - he's only hearing what he wants to hear and what he expects to hear and maybe someone else could "speak his language" and he could see where I'm coming from.

In the meantime, I tell my teens "Please, take your time and really get to know someone before you decide if this individual is who you want to love and live with and build a "business" with for the rest of your life. No one is perfect but is this someone you could work with." So they get to know the person first and not fall into the image trap. Thanks again everyone.

Growing up in mormism really screwed me up. I wasn't good at music or 'girly' things. I wasn't crafty. I was cute, but never prissy. I felt like the messages I got in YW were telling me that I was deficient.... I needed to be different to get my peter priesthood.

So, When I met my dh, I pretended to be something I wasn't. I played the role of what I thought he wanted. Now I feel guilty that he is stuck with me when I put on a show to be what I thought he wanted.

the same way certain posters on this board are in love with the image they know as Marie Osmond? because most of them have never met her & they love what they think is her anyway.

My ex was like that too, I thought it was just us. He used to buy me flowers, (sniff-sniff-achoo!) to which I'm severely allergic. Good husbands buy flowers for their Molly, even if she doesn't like it.
He used to buy me beautiful white blouses, lacy and lovely. We lived in the country, I was home with 4 little kids all the time, I had no earthly use for fancy white blouses, but they fit his imaginary image of what a good little wife would wear.
We'd been divorced for years before I figured out we were never really married to each other, lol.
This has got to be more prevalent in LDS culture where you don't get to shop around before you buy.