I live in the "Bible Belt." Everydamnbody is some flavor of Christian here...which is totally fine. BUT. I keep getting hammered about "forgiving" my ex for more than 2 decades of abuse. Apparently I am too bitter and can't "move on" until I let it go and forgive him.

BULL. FUCKING. SHIT.

He's a predator. A sociopath. I stay on high alert at all times because I NEED to know what my enemy is doing...Army talk, y'know? (I've got a super-star soldier for a son, and THAT's what he says about their training). I have to be pro-active to protect myself and my little boys.

My ex is the gift that keeps on giving:

extortion
physical abuse
mental cruelty
emotional abuse
infidelity
Cocaine addict
lost his medical license
fired
blew through all of my children's college funds
lost all of our savings/401K/life insurance/retirement
lost my health insurance
Home foreclosed
Bankruptcy
Divorce
Gave me an STD that gave me . . .

**CANCER**!!!!

Yay me.

Now, just what about the above list is legitimately forgiveable, and for FUCK's sake, WHY???

Don't get me wrong, I understand the healing process of genuine forgiveness with an estranged loved one. Clearing up decades of hurt can most certainly give both parties closure and love again. But can this happen with a sociopath? Anytime I've tried to extend an olive branch, he's just sucked me back in enough to start the cycle of exploitation all over again.

I understand forgiveness principals - Buddha, Jesus Christ - all those people. But. I. Honestly. Believe... that in my case, it's a whole lot healthier to stay wary, at a distance, and to guard my heart, mind and home from him.

What do you all think about forgiveness and what has been your experience?

;o)

P.S. I think anger can be empowering and healing in itself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2016 06:53PM by shannon.

Shannon, you're no fool. You know what you know about him. Don't even entertain other peoples opinions about something for which they are deeply ignorant. Do what you have to do.

Hahahahahaha! OMG Cheryl. You made me laugh today!!! Let's just both despise him together and forget about these Bible Thumpers here in the South! Lardy!!

;o)

P.S. Still laughing....

Some people are not worthy of forgiving.

If wants to forgive him... that's his deal.

as for me.... F*#@k him!!!

If God wants to forgive him.

I love that path...."If God wants to forgive him...that's his deal. As for me..."F*#@k him!!!!"

Let Gawd forgive him. I've come to the conclusion that's above MY pay grade. ha!

;o)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2016 07:01PM by shannon.

People have all sorts of platitudes of advice to give out, especially it seems when none has been asked for. Also, how often do people really try to get to the facts, look into both sides of the equation, as it is always true in a relationship that it takes two to tango.

Shannon, you, and only you, can decide that if your ex should decide to ask your forgiveness, what you will say. The others are trespassing.

(((hugs))) Keep safe always.

I think that forgiveness is only *possible* when the offending individual is *genuinely* repentant. Your ex isn't there yet, and may not ever be within his lifetime. Therefore forgiving him is not your concern.

It sounds like you at least are free to live your home life without him. When your boys achieve their majority then perhaps you can be free of him forever. That will be your peace.

Agreed. If you want to play according to their rules... God requires repentance in order for people to be forgiven of their sins. If God can't or won't forgive without repentance what makes Christians think they can? Are they better or more able than the Almighty?

That's what I always say too! You'd be surprised how many people tell me repentance is not required. With Mormons especially I hear about how I should forgive even if the other person never acknowledges that they did anything wrong, as though it's my own fault for being angry. Hey also tell me not to confront anyone because that's awkward for the other person, and give me a list of excuses I could apply to them instead. I'm thinking, those excuses are exactly why I should confront them--to find out if they're true!

There is short "IF I AM DIAGNOSED WITH A TERMINAL ILLNESS, YOU IN A HEAP O' TROUBLE, BOY" list I keep tucked away in my brain. Those montherfuckers get no forgiveness from this cowboy.

RB

Anyone who sends me grief best not give a return address.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2016 07:05PM by donbagley.

Nice

;o)

shannon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But. I. Honestly.
> Believe... that in my case, it's a whole lot
> healthier to stay wary, at a distance, and to
> guard my heart, mind and home from him.

I believe that, too. He's put you through hell, yes, makes sense that you are wary.
Blows my mind that someone can do evil and the injured party is supposed to let it go?
Yeah, no.

If he's far away from you now or is not in a position to hurt you, then I think it would help you feel better to not bother to think of him. But I see no reason to give him a pass by excusing his behavior, unless he's had a genuine change of heart and proves it.

I so agree with the view that the ex needs to show a genuine change of heart and needs to prove it by engaging in actions to better the situation he has put you in.

A post I've saved and read frequently.

From imworkinonit from RfM 3/13/13

It's wrong. You should always forgive, or you have a problem, and you have committed the bigger sin.

Okay, I really don't believe what I just wrote. But I used to. And there are obviously a lot of religious people who operate under the assumption that anger is wrong. In the case of a controlling religion (like Mormonism), who benefits when the members are taught to be meek, submissive, and suppress natural reactions to mistreatment? Isn't it typical when the controller in a relationship gets to rewrite expectations for behavior in a way that benefits THEM, and that they don't want to be held accountable for their actions?

Is it actually BAD to be angry or upset when mistreated? Or is it a natural reaction?

Of COURSE the church would rather have people leave quietly, rather than rage about the things they put up with in the church. So they do a preemptive strike. In church, they discredit people who leave the church. They accuse them generally of being bitter, angry, and wanting to sin. And true believers sit there and listen to this stuff their whole life, and think "I never want to be like THEM." And then when people leave, they gossip about them, they speculate about what sin they committed, they pester them in their homes. Sometimes they shower them or their CHILDREN with notes, calls, gifts. They shun them. Sometimes they even threaten them with damnation and predict bad things happening in their lives. But they usually don't listen to them or respect them as individuals who have a legitimate reason to believe differently. 

And many people, after they leave, STILL operate under the assumption that it's bad to criticize the church or feel negatively toward it, because they desperately don't want to fit the profile of someone who is "angry and bitter".

When people come here to the board, many have lost their friends, their standing in the community, and sometimes lost relationships with their parents, siblings, or even spouses and children. All because they discovered the truth and the Mormons assumed that the "apostate" is now a horrible person. Is that NOT upsetting? Would a normal person be okay with that? And who are you to decide when they should let it go?

I see your focus on their negativity. Why doesn't it bother you MORE that they were mistreated? Where is your outrage about that?

I was trained to be submissive and pleasant, no matter what. I put up with some things that were ridiculous. I was a doormat. Sometimes anger was the only thing that could get me to say NO, when I was tired of being taken advantage of. 

Learning to experience anger, instead of suppress it, opened up a wider range of emotions--including positive ones-- for me. It also gave me the resolve to take back control of my own life and set boundaries with people.

That anger stage didn't last all that long for me. But when I hear about people being mistreated, I DO get angry. Sometimes outrage is a normal response.
 
Your discomfort in hearing about unpleasantness and anger is nothing compared to going through it.
 
But I can understand why you might not want to hear about it anymore. It's just like people who might not want to watch the news anymore. Hearing about disasters and crime doesn't lift you, and it doesn't help him.

But here's the difference: Here you can give support and validation to people who are suffering, even if you are not. But if, instead, you tell people to stop complaining, you are doing the opposite. It's like telling someone to "smile" so they'll feel better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2016 07:27PM by iris.

Hell no, Shannon. You don't owe him forgiveness.

You owe it to yourself to forgive you for having married him in the first place.

It's part of your survival instinct to stay vigilant.

Working through the anger and grief of all that he's done to you will sort itself out. Forgiving a sociopath is a crock. People who say that don't know what they're talking about. You're the one who married him, not them.

Your friends and neighbors may be more concerned about your health than your forgiving him. They don't want to see you battling more than you can handle with your present health scare. What they tell you is out of concern, but they don't understand because they haven't walked in your mocassins.

Shannon, I live in a bible belt, also, so I know what you mean. Also, your ex sounds like my exsh**thead except for the medical and the STD. They are not one bit remorseful so may they burn in hell. Or wherever. Screeeeew them and the horse they rode in on.
AND those doing that whiney you should forgive need to live with these assholes themselves then demonstrate to us how they forgive. Yeah when monkeys fly outta my ass.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2016 08:00PM by aquarius123.

Forgiveness is a bull shit christian construct.


Your husband doesn't deserve your forgiveness. He hurt you
in ways that you will not recover from , he took things away from you and he hurt both you and your children. Fuck him.
If he had half a brain and a semblance of humanity he never
would have hurt you in those ways in the first place. He should crawl on bloody knees to beg you and your children to forgive him... I'm sure he won't because he is an Asshole
I always recognize them because i was married to one who treated me the same way you were treated . Being married to
someone like him hurts you in ways you can't at first recognize and when you do, you are assaulted all over again,

Forget that creepy abuser and get on with your life and never never let anyone tell you what you should feel, or what you should do. You have been through hell and back and you can
live your own life and make your own choices all by yourself.

Go for the beauty in life because you have already had an overabundance of the ugly.

Big Big hugs to you my sweet friend.

Saucie, you are right on, as usual.

Another thing... when you have kids, they watch everything you do. And the lesson they'll learn is that it's good to "forgive" and let an abusive ex abuse you some more.

If you have a boy, he learns that abusing a spouse is basically okay. And if you have a girl, she will grow up to be a doormat.

And yes, I know that women can be abusers, too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2016 09:06AM by Doxi.

Doxi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Saucie, you are right on, as usual.
>
> Another thing... when you have kids, they watch
> everything you do. And the lesson they'll learn is
> that it's good to "forgive" and let an abusive ex
> abuse you some more.
>
> If you have a boy, he learns that abusing a spouse
> is basically okay. And if you have a girl, she
> will grow up to be a doormat.
>
> And yes, I know that women can be abusers, too.


Thanks Doxi.... that is so important to mention.

"People are accountable for the damage they wreak upon others even when it comes from a place of psychic pathology."

"No one owes anyone forgiveness or even closure and sometimes we have to learn to accept that, cruel as it may seem; These are the hard lessons life that I've come to terms with through my journey and education. "

Your ex is accountable for the damage he placed upon you, even if he has a Cluster B disorder and is a drug addict. You are not obligated to forgive him and people who say so are enablers of abuse and pathology. Forgiveness is not the end goal here, indifference and living your life happily is, even with all the shit he continues to put you through.

Itzpapalotl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forgiveness is not the end goal
> here, indifference and living your life happily
> is

Yes!!!!

I think just letting someone know why you've disowned them if they ask why is enough for closure! I do think that in general that much is only fair. In extreme cases like this one, absolutely no contact is better!

No change of heart for him! Flying to a foreign country this week to collect a new bride, Eeek!

;o)

Sounds like my ex-husband except for the cocaine addiction, STD, loss of medical license, or anything to do with children. Fortunately, I divorced him before children complicated things, but there's no way I can forgive him. Just having him out of my life is enough for me, and that it's been long enough since the foreclosure and bankruptcy that the damage to my credit has been gone enough for me to get a new car almost a couple of years ago. For me, that's the sweetest revenge, living well and passing a credit check.

I know he at least never gave me an STD, because when I filed for divorce, I went to the doctor and got tested for everything, and all tests have been negative.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2016 09:41PM by adoylelb.

(referring to minor items)

Perhaps some posters here have Never made a mistake that needs correction(s); I'm not one of those.

being a Forgiving individual / the act of Forgiving can be a cleansing experience for all involved; I wish my children & grand-children had that for an example in their lives.

And btw, LDS women can be just as vicious as men are wrong in other or same areas of their lives; ask me, I Know.

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> (referring to minor items)
>
> Perhaps some posters here have Never made a
> mistake that needs correction(s); I'm not one of
> those.
>
> being a Forgiving individual / the act of
> Forgiving can be a cleansing experience for all
> involved; I wish my children & grand-children had
> that for an example in their lives.

Oh, I certainly have made such mistakes. And even bigger than "minor" ones.

And I agree with you that forgiving can be a "cleansing" experience for all involved. As long as ALL are involved.

And that's really the key. Long-term, consistent, abusive harmful behavior isn't a "mistake." Whatever its cause (psychopathy/sociopathy, learned behavior, narcissism, whatever), it's not a "mistake." A "mistake" is when you thought some approach was the right way to do something, and it turns out it wasn't, perhaps because of unforeseen consequences, or because you didn't consider someone else's feelings or needs. Those are mistakes. You can learn from them. You can make amends where possible, and do your best to avoid making them again. Whether you're the one making them, or the one who got the unforeseen consequences, when all are involved it is great to go through the cleansing, and forgiveness is merited.

It usually isn't merited in cases like the OP's. And many others. The people involved didn't make mistakes, they selfishly and intentionally caused serious harm to other human beings, over and over again. Forgiveness in such cases doesn't involve everybody, as the abuser rarely actually feels regret for what they've done (though they sometimes do regret the consequences, which misses the point entirely), and they'll do it again at the first opportunity, not learning anything from "forgiveness."

As lots of posters have said, such people don't need forgiveness -- they need to be kicked to the curb, removed from your life, not allowed to cause harm again.

The mormon church abuses forgiveness by expecting everyone to give it out for free in unlimited quantities. You forgive, someone takes advantage of you with an expectation that you will forgive them, you then forgive them again, and the cycle repeats over, and over, and over. Everyone is supposed to be remain unoffended when they should take offense, and to forgive when they should retaliate to break the unhealthy cycle. Forgiveness is a gift, not something you should be expected to give against your will. This is a good and healthy way to live.

Think of forgiving a dog that bit you. The dog won't get what you're saying, but it's not about the dog. It's about you not being attached to the past. Likewise, it doesn't help to have attachments to future outcomes. Now is when life happens. You breathe in, you breathe out. That was a little bit of now, the only thing that's real. And life goes on, one breath at a time.

That's not forgiving, it is moving on. I don't think those are the same thing at all.

While it's great to get centered in the present moment, that dog bite has left a nasty wound--and the dog still lives close by so some planning for the future is warranted.

matthew 15-18

this is all you need say to bible belt types. they should know their bible but these verses are about if a brother sins, and repeatedly sins and does not change, treat him as you would a tax collector.

that should shut them up! Your indignation and contempt towards this miscreant is endorsed in their good book. Forgiveness has to be earned, not handed out to all and sundry. Admonishing you to 'forgive' is going against the direct instruction of their lord.

Those who feel they've gained something from "forgiving" others, could continue to think and live this way.

Those who feel they need to avoid enabling their abusers by "forgiving them" could continue to see it their way.

What bothers me are the posters who try to force their view on someone who is suffering and is not in a situation or place in their lives to give away their authenticity by claiming to forgive.

Anytime I have forgiven a trespass it came naturally over time. It wasn't forced by an unconnected person's demand on me and it wasn't something I pushed hard for as some kind of "gift" to myself.

Being able to forgive the shortcomings and wrongdoings of others, and ourselves, is a virtue.

No one is bound to forgive evil. There is no justification to do so in this life, or the world to come.

Sociopaths have no conscience and wreak all sorts of mayhem and havoc on others lives, at will.

There is no requirement to forgive evil. Nor is there a rationale to do so, including in the Christian construct.

Why some are born with the pathological gene that makes them into monsters, who knows? Whether it was environment or genetics that creates them, who cares? They don't change over time. The more you are able to keep up your fences and boundaries, the better off you'll be from such people.

Hitler was one example of someone who was pure evil to the core. There is no redemption for his sort in this world or the world to come.

I agree, it is a virtue to forgive shortcomings.

But no one needs to forgive evil which can't be redeemed.

Good of you to point this out.

I don't understand the attitude of it is all about the one who is hurting you. I went through that, too, but then the fallout of my marriage was nothing compared to what you are going through.

You have every right to be angry, ANGRY. We were taught we can't be angry, that anger is a bad thing. BE ANGRY. That is one of the things this board taught me is I can be angry. I believe allowing myself to be angry is what started the healing process. You owe this man ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

And even if he tried or wanted to repay you for all you've suffered, he never could.

I used to go out walking at the middle school track and rant and rave talking out loud. It helped a lot.

You will heal. You will find your way out of this hell you are living in. There is light at the end of this dark tunnel.

I found I tended to stay away from people the more bullshit I heard like this. I have a few select people I hang out with. I'm very picky about who I am friends with on fb, etc. Nobody has a right to tell you how to feel or what you should do. Only YOU know what you have been through.

"Forgiveness" is an issue I studied long and hard, as it made no sense to me that those who are abused are required to forgive those who abuse them.

Finally, I came to understand that the key to this lock is the fact that no one is required to forgive unrepentant sinners, as that would be an offense against justice--and our God is a defender of justice. To be forgiven, sinners are required to repent and make restitution for the harm they have caused.

Then what is grace? Grace is not a "get out of jail free" ticket. Instead, it is allows a period of time for God's children to discover the difference between good and bad, through experience. Most of us learn what it feels like to be abused (physically or mentally), and therefore we can be held accountable if we deliberately do something that harms someone else.

As St.Matthew wrote (quoting Jesus): "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets". (Matt.7:12)
IMHO, this is the best way to live and experience happiness.

Those who think they can avoid a "comeuppance" for doing evil are due for a guaranteed severe awakening.

If a bad person manages to miss out in retribution in this life (which is almost impossible for a louse), he/she sure as h..l is going to get it in the next, where such persons will live forever with persons such as them self: In "outer-darkness" (which is a hell of an existence outside of God's kingdom of light, where only goodness and pleasure reside).

Those sentenced to hell will find there is no way to escape from their deserved miserable circumstances (at least, not until God's plan for them allows a change of existence).

IMHO
P

Due for nothing...Biggest BS.....

People who tell you that YOU must forgive ongoing abuse (or past abuse, for that matter) are messing in your mental space because THEY are uncomfortable with your emotions. Many of them are probably guided by religious beliefs that are faulty (like turning the other cheek, and forgiving 70X7).

Frankly, it's not their right to tell you how you should emotionally deal with what happened. They are judging YOU for not being as forgiving as Jesus himself--who might actually be a fictional character. If they were actually supportive friends, they would try to understand your feelings, and they might even show some empathy. Validation that what happened was wrong is important to recovery from abuse. Instead, they put it on you to fix everything with 'forgiveness'.

I'm of the opinion that negative emotions like anger have to be faced and experienced to get over them. If YOU decide that you feel stuck in negative emotional patterns then it's YOUR call to seek help in moving on. Personally, I'd avoid sharing with religious people who like to offer simplistic solutions like 'forgiving' someone who has tried to destroy you.

The mormon Jesus celebrated taking on the sins of the world and thus giving us the opportunity to gain immortality by visiting America and destroying a number of large cities. That doesn't sound very forgiving.

Even in Christianity, "God" sends the unrepentant to hell. If he forgave everyone of everything, then why would there even be a hell at all?

Bible Thumper: "You must learn to forgive."

You: "Have you forgiven Satan?"


Oh, yeah, Shannon. You are spot-on. Entirely healthy and rational to loathe and protect yourself from pure evil. Bible thumpers will tell you so, at all hours of the day if you let them. THEIR problem, the ones who say this to you, is their blindness to reality. If you were to say, "Satan is persecuting me," instead of "My ex ....," you would receive reams of prayers in "support" of your righteous battles, that you must never let your guard down. You would NEVER be told to "just forgive Satan, you need to let it go...blah blah blah..."

Magical thinkers - how lucky for them that they don't yet know that the "demons" on earth are of the flesh and blood variety, that do real damage to real people.


*now exiting thier la-la land, because that damn near made me SICK to think about

I was a battered wife, too, and my most difficult task was forgiving MYSELF, for being duped by that con-man in the first place. He hounded me into marrying him, after knowing him only a few months. He manipulated my parents into taking his side, because he was a returned missionary, from a prominent GA family in close association with our own GA family, was a "scholarship" student at an Ivy League university, bla-bla. It was all lies. He had no scholarship. His family hated him because he had abused his sister. He was in debt, and was living off of a false insurance claim, etc. etc. How could I have been so stupid!

Sometimes, during the beatings, I would think I actually deserved this treatment, because I had broken the hearts of two very wonderful young men. I had rather harshly broken up with them, one right after the other, because they were not Mormons.

Sociopaths are very, very manipulative. They are expert liars. I believe they are born that way. According to psychologists, they are never cured. Never, meaning never cured. Sociopaths and psychopaths make up most of the prisoners in our jails.

It is not YOUR responsibility to forgive your ex. You owe him NOTHING. He abused you. (I'm assuming he was abusive to your children, too--most of them are.) Sociopaths have a knack for making people FEEL SORRY FOR THEM, so they come across as the victim, and not you. My ex did that with two other women, within weeks after each of his divorces. Your ex is not your worry--unless you try to prevent him from infecting other women. My divorce "on the grounds of extreme physical cruelty" and the complete court transcript was put on the public records, and I hoped that other women he preyed upon would read all of it. Alas, the women lived clear across the country.

But, you know, even if a woman is warned against your ex, I'm sure he has the ability to talk his way in or out of anything. Accept that he will go on sinning, so it is moot whether you forgive him or not.

Try to not think of him--except that he's gone, and you and your children are safe!

I agree that forgiveness is a crock!

"GO and sin no more." It's that simple. The one who sins against you must GO.

The next person who explains to me that forgiveness is for me and not the offending person will be smacked.

I can't force myself to believe something. I can't force myself to forgive. I hate the word. I like the idea of complete acceptance.

The person is exactly how they are. It's not my fault. They are extremely unlikely to change. How much access do I grant them to me.

Still it takes time. Especially if they keep reoffending. Eventually the anger lessens. I hope. I don't know. I've never been mistreated to that degree. You have every right to be pissed forever. You certainly have a right to keep him as far away as possible.

Dorothy, I'm with you. We're talking about some jackass telling us how we ought to feel for our own good! It's bullshit.

And while geographical distance helps a great deal, (like, living in a different STATE!) I think that you will find that time, and diminished contact will gradually lessen your rage.

As for forgiveness, I don't worry about it. My philosophy is, "If he asks me to forgive him for his cruelty, abuse and adultery, and he really means it, I may consider it." But I know him too well. He will never admit to those things. But I no longer chew on my own innards with hatred, either. With time, if you are no longer faced with dealing with him, it fades.

About the best I can manage is to ignore him. We have had no communication in more than 20 years. That works.

Everyone heals however THEY need to.
I personally despise the Forgiveness Thumpers. If/when they tout it as the only way to be free, healthy, whole ,etc. I say BULLSHIT.
It only parades their Rigidity-not an attractive trait to emulate. If that is what forgiveness does, I want NO Part of it.

Typically they have a mortal fear of anger. I do not. I see it as a natural emotion to guide me, keep me safe, and motivate me. Society likes to demonize anger-for their OWN benefit, not yours.
It keeps them safe in the idea of Kumbayaville. It doesnt exist, but the forgiveness thumpers desperately need to believe in it-to protect them from the scary world of angry people.

Just my impression

Forgiveness is overrated. Many are not worthy of being forgiven.