I have been reading the board for over a week. I had never looked into the "LDS church" before. I have a VERY close Mormon friend (I now know that is unusual) that is acting very different since her son left on his mission overseas. I understand that b/c I am Catholic, she can't talk to me about her concerns. My main concern (aside from his health & safety) is; he has been sent to a rural area that is 95% Catholic and now he is making anti Catholic statements as well as his father. She is like a sister to me and I am scared that I am going to lose her. Has anyone else been here or have any advise?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2016 10:46AM by catholicfriend.

Unless her anti-Catholic talk offends you and you react in a way she can't handle.

Usually, missionary parents become rather arrogant and boastful while they have a son or daughter in the "mission field." If you can put up with that, you should be fine.

To be honest, I am offended, but our entire family has been friends were her entire family for well over a decade. He is only 4 months into his mission. We were at her house for Thanksgiving yesterday. I asked her ,if the negativity of having the door shut in his face constantly got to him, could he come home early! It was an immediate NO! I've never seen her react that way before. I'm beginning to wonder if they have always been TBM's b/c our different religions has never an issue. They never tried to convert us. Should I be offended?

You've been friends for over a decade and you never questioned her why her church leaders and scriptures consider YOUR religion the "Great and Abominable Church" and "Great Whore of All the Earth"?

It's to be expected that a good friend would not pry into such religious topics in a social situation.

Only mormons think it's their right to push religious topics in casual settings outside of their own families and churches. Their brainwashing means they don't know they're being rude.

I now know the the Catholic Church is the "Whore of Babylon." I have asked questions about her religion over the years and her answers were always on point. I never had any reason to question her. After finding this sight, I now realize that she was giving me half truths, etc. It is my fault for not investigating, but I have friends of many different Faiths and I have never felt that I should judge another persons beliefs. You know "judge someone on the content of their character..."

Your instincts, values & honest friendship are true. But, expecting mormons to have reciprocal traits are misguided. Again, it's a cult- always was & always will be. Trying to place rational principals to mormon friends or neighbors is about as effective of trying to teach your dog to do your taxes.

Your innocent question is very offensive for a true believing Mormon :) haha

It brings shame to the entire family when a missionary comes home early.

Another question you can asked is " When he get's hot can he take off his garments?"

The answer is "No" no matter how hot it is the long underwear needs to stay on 24 hours a day except for swimming, sport or if you are married sex.

When I left Mormonism my own mother said that I had satan in my had because I believed every lie that is online. My advice to you is either set her straight " I enjoy our friendship but please no talk about religion". Or you could do the one ear in and one ear out. I have to ignore half of the stuff my lds mom says. Sorry you are going through this.

The question you asked her was like asking, "So this weakling son of yours turns out to be a failure?"

(not that that would be true for "normal" thinkers)

I'm not judging, but struggling to understand how you could have been so close to her for so long, and not know that.

Did you never discuss -any- religious matters, or other areas where you may have had to agree to disagree?

I have asked many questions over the years. There are some things about the LDS Faith that I thought were good. Example: Wards only allowed to have so many members before creating a new ward. I thought - WOW a closer community. I asked why the church did not have schools, so the kids did not have to go to seminary at 6:00 a.m. She told me that the church wanted to be inclusive - not exclusive, etc. She is one of the smartest people I know. I now understand why the church does what it does. If they opened schools they would have to allow a certain amount of non members. Ward size=more control. I guess in hindsight I should have looked into it, but I never considered leaving my Church. I thought all Christian Faiths taught essentially the same thing. My bad!

A minor correction - Mormons can be some of the dumbest smart people.

Terms for you to know:

Callings (busy work)
Milk before meat (lying for the lord)
Seminary (indoctrination)
Inoculation (apologetics)
Bishop interviews (sex talks with kids behind closed doors)
Temple weddings (you won't be invited)
Licked cupcakes and chewed gum (unmarried, non-virginal females)
Dead dunking (proxy baptisms of dead people)
Garments (mandatory, magic underwear)
Tithing settlements (annual bishop review / accounting of your tithing for temple addmission tickets)
Temple Recommends (TR - temple admission tickets, more than tithing required, often lies to bishop)
Joe Smith (ex-convict, met with Christ, who told him all other religions are of Lucifer, among much other weirdness)
Rock in the hat (you have to look this one up yourself to appreciate)

And, about a year ago, they bar any child of a homosexual parent, living as such, from baptism or becoming a member. Suffer the children..? Not. You have to read their apologetics on this to believe that such obvious stupidity can be uttered.

Mormonism is nothing like mainstream religions. The closest comparison is Islam, without the beheadings. Joe Smith is their Muhammad.

The entire system is set up to control members' money.

Oh, something else about the missions - families must pay for room and board for their missionaries, so your friend may be feeling a financial pinch, depending on their finances. Many mormons live beyond their means, because "worthy" people are "financially blessed," and to "look poor" is to "be unworthy."

Read what BYU Boner wrote. I am sure he studied a book or three about not harming treasured relationships.

beggin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A minor correction - Mormons can be some of the
> dumbest smart people.
>
> Terms for you to know:
>
> Callings (busy work)
> Milk before meat (lying for the lord)
> Seminary (indoctrination)
> Inoculation (apologetics)
> Bishop interviews (sex talks with kids behind
> closed doors)
> Temple weddings (you won't be invited) *********
> Licked cupcakes and chewed gum (unmarried,
> non-virginal females)
> Dead dunking (proxy baptisms of dead people)*******
> Garments (mandatory, magic underwear)*********
> Tithing settlements (annual bishop review /
> accounting of your tithing for temple addmission
> tickets)*********
> Temple Recommends (TR - temple admission tickets,********
> more than tithing required, often lies to bishop)
> Joe Smith (ex-convict, met with Christ, who told
> him all other religions are of Lucifer, among much
> other weirdness)****************
> Rock in the hat (you have to look this one up
> yourself to appreciate) *****************
>
> And, about a year ago, they bar any child of a
> homosexual parent, living as such, from baptism or
> becoming a member. Suffer the children..? Not.
> You have to read their apologetics on this to
> believe that such obvious stupidity can be
> uttered.********************
>
> Mormonism is nothing like mainstream religions.
> The closest comparison is Islam, without the
> beheadings. Joe Smith is their Muhammad. *******
>
> The entire system is set up to control members'
> money.**********
>
> Oh, something else about the missions - families
> must pay for room and board for their
> missionaries, so your friend may be feeling a
> financial pinch, depending on their finances.
> Many mormons live beyond their means, because
> "worthy" people are "financially blessed," and to
> "look poor" is to "be unworthy." **********Yes & No
>
> Read what BYU Boner wrote. I am sure he studied a
> book or three about not harming treasured
> relationships.

I put *** next to the things I learned on this site over the past week. The others are new to me and some are nasty (cupcake.) I had read about the "seer stone," but had not come across that phrase. My husband does not want me to tell him the things I'm learning. He says he can't remain friends if he knows to much. Part of me wishes I had never found any of this out!

I have noticed over the past year that a lot more money is being spent, but I thought - that is none of my business.

Paying for your child to be treated like a door mat would be my breaking point. The stories I have read are heart breaking! That any child (young adult) would feel that his or her parents care more about what the church thinks, than their own child's well being is - I can't put it into words!

I have lost both of my parents in the past few years and wonder if they have been dead dunked. I'm praying that has not happened.

The Catholic Church has it's own problems, to say the least, so I'm going to continue to try and come to an understanding about LDS that I can live with.

Thank you for teaching me all of these new and wonderful things! I have already spent about 16 hours in the past week reading previous posts. I've told my husband that this is some of the best fiction EVER written. That was not very nice, but...

Should you be offended? I'd say you already are (and rightfully so) just by the fact you even thought to ask.

Mormonism is not like other religions. Your friend is part of a cult and you are seeing for the first time the true cult behavior that she has not shown you before.

TBMs put up a facade and your friendship is most likely part of that facade. The friendship was genuine on your part and on her part, though she make like you a lot "even though you aren't Mormon" your relationship has Mormon imposed limits.

You can be friends with a Lion and it could go for years in a nice way until one day you are dinner.

Get to know the real her and see if you till want to be friends.I don't know how it is today, but when I was a missionary my greatest fear was going the whole two years and not baptizing anyone. The parents have the same fear. It runs deep. If the son is in a staunch catholic area like I was, then they must find a reason on which to blame failure to make conversions. That scapegoat would be the Catholic church which in their minds has "part of the truth" which allows it to be used as a tool of Satan to stop the real gospel of Mormonismsf from going forth.

When I was young the Mormons taught that the Catholic Church was the Great and Abominable Whore of all the Earth referred to in their Book of Mormon. They have toned down their rhetoric but not their arrogance and superiority.

Please know I am not out to destroy your future friendship. It's just good to know the facts some times. I hope you get past this with a new understanding of your friend and that she has a new respect for you.

Thank you for your kind words at the end. I am still having a problem wrapping my head around the fact that such a smart, kind, giving person has been judging (?) me for all these years. Her husband is a convert and they recently took their daughter to up state NY to see relevant historical sights. I think (am hoping) that they decided to go all in when their son decided to go on a mission. What I have learned about LDS is the complete opposite of the people I have known. BTW: Their son is the first in their entire family to go on a mission.

catholicfriend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am
> still having a problem wrapping my head around the
> fact that such a smart, kind, giving person has
> been judging (?) me for all these years.


You hit the nail on the head of something I've been wrestling with lately. I've sort of digested the fact that my brother and his wife, kids, in-laws, etc, are Mormon, but there's been one "epiphany" after another over the years as I figure them out and analyze the wackiness. Lately it's struck me that in spite of years of "happy" friendly visits and over-the-top interest and concern, there's been a different sort of "judgement" going on behind the phoney facade.

nomonomo Wrote:
--
>
> You hit the nail on the head of something I've
> been wrestling with lately. I've sort of digested
> the fact that my brother and his wife, kids,
> in-laws, etc, are Mormon, but there's been one
> "epiphany" after another over the years as I
> figure them out and analyze the wackiness. Lately
> it's struck me that in spite of years of "happy"
> friendly visits and over-the-top interest and
> concern, there's been a different sort of
> "judgement" going on behind the phoney facade.

Is this something you felt or has their behavior changed? I now realize I have seen/experienced the over-the-top interest where my kids are concerned.

catholicfriend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is this something you felt or has their behavior
> changed? I now realize I have seen/experienced
> the over-the-top interest where my kids are
> concerned.


It's all of the above! My younger brother fell for a Mormon girl in high school. They were married within a few months of graduation. So we've had about 30 years of wackiness (off and on).

We've had a number of WTF moments over the years, but their behavior has changed too, as they've "matured" in the faith and become pushier about it, especially after my dad died 3.5 years ago, and has finally resulted in them shunning us (as the result of some pushback).

Anyway, what I meant is that you'll go through periods where you'll recognize things from way back. We've had years of wackiness. Over the years, as they pushed more, I'd do a little research (discovered this awesome site years ago). So...

1) Weird/offensive things happen, and you deal with it.
2) Sometime later you realize/learn what drove the behavior
3) Even after that, it occurs to you how even more offensive it all is

Lately I'm sort of at stage three with a number of things.

For example:

(Stage 1) We drove about 600 miles to visit them years ago. After settling in at their house, my sister-in-law took me aside to tell me that my brother didn't like my daughter's shirt. I thought it was because it was psychedelic, pink and purple, had peace signs on it, etc. My dad was a military officer, and hated "hippies" when I was a little kid, so I mistakenly thought this was the rationale, so I said "It's not a political statement. She just likes the colors."

(Stage 2) Years later, I learn here about "modesty," sleeveless tops, "impure thoughts," etc. I assume that the real issue is that they took exception to my eight-year-old daughter's top because it was sleeveless and that my "adult" brother was having "impure" thoughts. So, yeah, offensive...

(Stage 3) It occurs to me more recently that in spite of the lovey-dovy, chipper, friendly facade they maintain, that they really carry on an endless judgmental dialog of those whom they purport to "love." For example, my brother is certainly strong enough to come tell me something if it's bothering him, especially if he's concerned about it. So, the reality in this case is that his wife was probably apoplectic because her girls were playing with mine, and having a good time, and my daughter--heaven forbid--has exposed arms!

I felt good about standing up for my daughter at stage 1, wanted to tell my brother off at stage 2, and want to tell my sister-in-law off at stage 3.

Anyway, being shunned has been the easiest dealings with them ever: none!

And, the reason for the phoney facade, the fake happiness, the pretend "love," is because they have to fool all their fellow TBMs into believing that they're perfect, and convince non-TBMs that their life is wonderful (so that we too may be fooled into joining the fake religion, and pretend to have a perfect life).

This sleeveless shirt story pretty much tells the whole story. I love when the never-mo's "get" the whole Mormon thing like this. Too bad you had to learn the hard way.

Mormons are like icebergs. The facade is the part above the surface and there real Mormon is the hidden dangerous part that will capsize you.

I do believe catholicfriend you just got your first glimpse of what's below the surface and there is much more to come.

The emphatic "No!" was because of the opprobrium (from other mormons) that would cascade upon the entire family if he came early. It wasn't the reason you gave, but rather just the notion of early return.

Because they are all so guilty of heaping judgments on those they know who fall short in some area, they know what to expect.

There's an argument to be made that your friend's lack of missionary zeal towards you is based on her desire to keep you as a friend. She knows that if she were to put the full press missionary effort on, and you failed to convert, she'd have to just you as an unworthy person, and thus have to dump you. She likes you so much that keeping you as her friend is more important that your eternal salvation.

If you ever want to really test her, ask her why she's never tried to convert you...

Oooh, bad type-o.

Came HOME early, Elderolddog, came HOME.

:-D

But what you said is sad, but I think you nailed it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2016 01:27PM by seekyr.

On my mission, we came early and we came often, so I understand where my mind was at when it engineered that typo...

seekyr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oooh, bad type-o.
>
> Came HOME early, Elderolddog, came HOME.
>
> :-D
>
> But what you said is sad, but I think you nailed
> it.


Someone referenced this below. I don't understand. Could you give this newbie a heads up. Oh BTW, I can be extremely slow at times. That should come as no surprise since it took more than a decade to get a clue.

To dagny and lolly 18,

Upon reflection I have determined that we (the families) did/do not talk about religion often. I have asked many questions over the years and have received answers. The questions about my religion never came, but I thought that was b/c "everyone" knows about Catholics. The anti Catholic rhetoric is a direct response to having the door shut in his face and having a "fish on the hook," but losing it when the person finds they have to leave their church. I think both parents are having a much harder time than they wish to admit.

I have realized today, due to this discussion, that I am mostly upset that I can't help my friend during one of the hardest times of her life.

I really wish I could send care packages, but it is hard to do where he is and very cost prohibitive.

OP, when I typo'ed, leaving the 'home' out of "come home early", it allowed us ex-mos the delight of joking about masturbation! See, in mormonism masturbation is ... special...

It is the sin next to murder. Church officials begin questioning boys and girls about their private sex habits at the age of 12. At least once a year, a youth and his/her bishop sit alone in a room and the bishop asks questions about the youth's relationship with his/her genitals.

I can't give you a definite percentage, but there is a segment of the youth population that lies our asses off. And then there's the segment that takes it seriously and works to break themselves of breathing...I mean of masturbating. Once you become exmo, the ridiculousness of the situation is one of the more startling aspects of the cult we once belonged to.

So we joke a lot about it. And BYU Boner even chose a name to remind himself of his former good times!

I think at the moment I am to scared to ask. We met when our kids were young. Our boys were about the same age and it led to family gatherings and such. I really HOPE she did not try to recruit me b/c she did not want to lose me as a friend. My husband and hers have always gotten along and had a lot in common. The kids were close until H.S., but I chalked that up to different schools. Mine went to a Catholic H.S. etc.

catholicfriend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think at the moment I am to scared to ask. We
> met when our kids were young. Our boys were about
> the same age and it led to family gatherings and
> such. I really HOPE she did not try to recruit me
> b/c she did not want to lose me as a friend. My
> husband and hers have always gotten along and had
> a lot in common. The kids were close until H.S.,
> but I chalked that up to different schools. Mine
> went to a Catholic H.S. etc.


I'm going to guess that you do not live in the Moridor, because if you did then they probably wouldn't have ever been terribly friendly (unless you were a recruiting project, and you'd have noticed that).

That said, don't push too hard if you want to remain friends. Disagreeing about religion, or being "anti" as they see it, will split you up faster than you can imagine. And you're "just" a friend. Mormonism will split up families, and husbands and wives. Friends are small potatoes.

They are allowed to criticize your religion, but not vice versa.

Wrong spot...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2016 03:40PM by nomonomo.

I have a son on a mission right now. Here's what I said to him the night before he left--he was to teach people about Mormonism--not other faiths. I made it clear, Mormons do not know what other faiths believe. If one wanted to know what Catholics believed, one should ask a Catholic priest. If one wanted to know what Jews believed, one should ask a rabbi. If one wanted to know about Baptists, a Baptist minister...etc.

With your friend, I would talk with her openly and directly. You could start the conversation like this--the last couple of months must be hard with X gone. I know you love and support him and his mission, but I'm feeling a tenseness with our friendship. I value it and you. Religion has not been the basis of our friendship, I don't want it to divide us. Is there something causing you stress that you'd like to talk about? I love you and our friendship. Then, I'd listen.

As far as any anti-Catholic statements, here is what I'd say--Catholicism has existed for about 2000 years, all of its issues, strengths, and problems have been widely discussed, and Catholics are aware of these. Mormonism is a young religion and it too has strengths and problems. Let's leave the criticism alone for the sake of friendship. Very best wishes, The Boner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2016 01:04PM by BYU Boner.

Thank you! Those are some great ideas!

BYU Boner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a son on a mission right now. Here's what I
> said to him the night before he left--he was to
> teach people about Mormonism--not other faiths. I
> made it clear, Mormons do not know what other
> faiths believe. If one wanted to know what
> Catholics believed, one should ask a Catholic
> priest. If one wanted to know what Jews believed,
> one should ask a rabbi. If one wanted to know
> about Baptists, a Baptist minister...etc.
>

I'm sorry about your son. I hope he is in the states or at least a large city where he could learn a new culture, etc. Thank you for the advise. To say I am overwhelmed by all of this information (and my own ignorance) would be an understatement!

maybe because I am not from an area with lots of LDS, but most of us had close non mormon friends. Not every person has a missionary zeal. Maybe yo hit a nerve and the missionary son is struggling. I would not be so quick to write off such a long friendship.

overit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> maybe because I am not from an area with lots of
> LDS, but most of us had close non mormon friends.
> Not every person has a missionary zeal. Maybe yo
> hit a nerve and the missionary son is struggling.
> I would not be so quick to write off such a long
> friendship.

I am 99% sure I hit a nerve, although it was not on purpose. His Mom is forwarding his weekly emails to me and about 50 other people, so I am able to read between the lines and see the photos. His dad cried giving the Thanksgiving blessing before dinner when he mentioned his son.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2016 04:23PM by catholicfriend.

It would be nerve wracking for a parent to have a child on a mission *anywhere* in the world IMO.

The fact he's in a mostly Catholic area does not weigh on their beliefs any. Having doors shut in his face is not something that would keep her up at night, though it might him.

Catholics are some of the hardest to convert since they're perfectly happy being Catholic.

My brother spent his mission in Paris, France and Versailles. He didn't have a single convert the entire two years he was there. The Catholics treated him and his companions mostly well. It was never a second thought he'd quit and come home early. He really enjoyed his mission.

One girl about my age went on a mission when she was 21, to Spain. Then it was mostly a Catholic country if I recall correctly, don't know if it still is since the Muslims invaded Europe.

She had a nervous breakdown shortly after leaving her rural Idaho hometown for Spain, and had to cut short her mission. Her parents were mortified, she came home and basically went off the radar as I recall (maybe she went to college from there or to live with another family member.) The distance from home in a strange culture was too much for her, and she couldn't handle it. She wasn't ready to be on her own that far away from home or to go cold calling. Some people are not cut out to be door-to-door sales people. I knew as a TBM I wouldn't cut it as a missionary, so I never bothered to sign up. Plus I was more decidedly wanting to get married and be a stay-at-home mom. That didn't pan out either, not that it would've made any difference for me going on a mission.

When parents send their children on missions I wonder is it more for themselves living vicariously through that child, or for their child? Because there's no way in hell I'd want my children turned loose at that age ill-prepared to go out and teach a false doctrine to unwitting hosts, no matter where the church sends them.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2016 03:33PM by Amyjo.

Some of the best information you'll find online about Mormons is maintained by the Catholic Church (just click the related links):

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/distinctive-beliefs-of-the-mormon-church

If you want to hear a Mormon 'apostle' say "if they have a Catholic background, they don’t know who God is. They don’t know who the Savior is; nor do they know who the Holy Ghost is," then click this link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7c7Yz3Xkeg&feature=youtu.be&t=3544

I will definitely follow up with those links. I feel like that South Park episode where everyone literally put their heads in the sand. It was about a Muslin cartoon, but the analogy fits.

I'm more pessimistic that previous commenters. I would prepare to say goodbye to your friendship.

I thought Anthony Hopkins was great playing a cannibal in "Silence of the Lambs." As far as I know, however, Anthony Hopkins is not a cannibal in real life. This acquaintance has been great playing your friend. But is she actually your friend? Not until she puts her relationship with you above her membership in a destructive cult.

Your biggest problem now, as I see it, is accepting that she lives in a realm that's completely different from the one that you and the rest of us inhabit. Her rules of engagement are different. She routinely accepts and lives multiple layers of dishonesty, depending on with whom she is speaking--you, her child, her bishop. It's an elaborate artificial structure with very different rules.

One of those rules is that you work for Satan--unwittingly or not. I assume you would disagree, but what you think doesn't matter.

I don't believe that is true, get busylivin.

Mormons are perfectly capable of forming friendships and alliances with non-Mormons, and some are quite adept at it.

Plus, you're married to a TBM wife, with TBM step-children who reside with you. By your own logic, you wouldn't be able to be married to her or have TBM children because you're saying those relationships aren't therefore authentic.

Over and over I've heard you say how authentic they are. I took it at face value you knew of what you were saying.

Unless you believe what you're now saying: that your wife and step-children believe that about you ie, you work for Satan? You're one of the teddy bears in these parts. I wouldn't believe that about you for a nano second.

getbusylivin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Your biggest problem now, as I see it, is
> accepting that she lives in a realm that's
> completely different from the one that you and the
> rest of us inhabit.

That is the understanding/realization I am coming to.
>
> One of those rules is that you work for
> Satan--unwittingly or not.

I REALLY hope I am not working for Satan!!!!!!!!!!!! Would the cross I wear around my neck burn them if they touched it?! Sorry, I needed a little levity.

If they say disparaging remarks about Catholicism while you are around, do you feel comfortable enough to stand up for yourself? Maybe just a simple, "Please don't speak like that about my religion." My guess is it will nip it in the bud, and you stand up for yourself politely and succinctly. It could be they are so used to ripping on other religions among themselves that they lose self awareness about it. Know that they hate any other religion, even if they don't voice it. Everyone outside of Mormonism is less than and sorely misguided, no matter what the situation is in reality.

Even if the son did want to come home early, his family will put an unbelievable amount of pressure on him to remain on his mission. And it's a very good chance he may have brought this up with his family already or hinted at it, so you would have touched a raw nerve, soliciting an overly emphatic (and therefore a weirdly emphatic) NO from them.

Don't beat yourself up for not knowing how to navigate their land mines and feeling like you are walking on eggshells with them now. You didn't have a good reason to look into it before. Not your fault. But knowledge is power and it sounds like you are doing just fine reading about it recently. You can always ask this board question since Mormonism is such a tangled web when you start looking into it. Trying to understand your friend is a very loving thing to do. She is very lucky to have you and more than likely realizes that.

Imbolc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
Trying to understand your
> friend is a very loving thing to do. She is very
> lucky to have you and more than likely realizes
> that.

I have been very lucky to have her as a friend as well! I've reached out to let her know that she can talk to me when things REALLY suck and she doesn't want to share that with other TBM's (I did not know what a TBM was at that time, so I did not use that terminology.) I did bookmark the abbreviation page from this site. I could not understand what half of you were talking about at first!

I just hope if I continue to see her more stressed out that she will talk to me. She knows that I won't judge. At least I hope she knows......

I wouldn't use in-the-know Mormon vocabulary with her. She'll deduce quickly that you've been doing research, and will probably not take kindly to it. Mormons are "allowed" to critique other religions, but not vice versa.

I served in a heavily Catholic area myself (Quebec) about 35 years ago, so I do have some experience in this. Catholicism is a hard nut for Mormonism to crack, since the religion is often so tightly woven into the culture and fabric of society. I can't count the number of times I heard "Je suis catholique" during my two years, and hearing that meant basically "forget it, no chance, move on."

You don't specify the nature of the anti-Catholic statements, so as I see it, the reasons can fall into two broad categories. First, the missionary is not having the success he expected, and thinks he deserves. It doesn't help that the church sets him up for failure by giving him a crappy product to sell and setting unrealistic expectations (baptismal goals), then blames him for not meeting those goals. As a result, the missionaries frequently vent their frustrations by lashing out at the local populace, calling them "proud" and "lazy." Your friend's son happens to be in a Catholic area, so that's who gets the blame. If he were in Alabama, he'd be going after the Southern Baptists.

The second possibility is more insidious. The Mormon church has historically equated Catholicism with the great and abominable church, the whore of Babylon. As I'm sure you're aware, this has been a popular theme among certain Protestant elements over the years, and the Mormon church joined in with relish. The church is now trying to wish all those old sentiments away, and some members will flatly deny the church ever taught such things.

Orson Pratt, "Divine Authenticity of BofM," No. 3 (1850), p. 44:

"Secondly, it is objected that if the Church of Christ has not continued, then the gate of hell must have prevailed against her… But we would inform the Catholics, that the Church of Christ has not ceased to exist, neither has Peter ceased his existence, but both the Church and Peter are in heaven, far out of the reach of the gates of hell, and far out of the reach of the abominable soul-destroying impositions of popery. The gates of hell have prevailed and will continue to prevail over the Catholic mother of harlots, and over all her Protestant daughters; but as for the apostolical Church of Christ, she rests secure in the mansion of eternal happiness, where she will remain until the apostate Catholic church, with all her popes and bishops, together with all her harlot daughters shall be hurled down to hell…"

OK, that’s an old one. Let's look at something more recent, to see if attitudes have changed…

Bruce R. McConkie, "The Millennial Messiah" (1982), p. 438:

"'So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness,' John says, 'and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.' This woman is the great and abominable church. 'The seven heads are seven mountains' – the seven hills of Rome – 'on which the woman sitteth.' John is seeing that which Nephi saw."

Guess they haven't changed. McConkie was an apostle when he wrote that. Back in 1958, he wrote a book called "Mormon Doctrine," a Mormon bestseller and mainstay for decades. No serious LDS library would be considered complete without one. It served as arbiter of countless doctrinal disputes, and its influence on Mormon thinking over the years cannot be overestimated. In its first edition, McConkie came right out and called the Catholic Church "the church of the devil." Naturally, Catholic leaders in Salt Lake City were outraged, and the description was purged for the 1966 edition. Those first editions are hard to find now, and again some will deny that those words were ever published. But occasionally you can find an admission of the truth.

Wilfried Decoo, "Mormonism in a European Catholic Region: A Contribution to the Social Psychology of LDS Converts," BYU Studies, Vol. 24, No. 1 (Winter 1984), p. 74:

"…The historical perspective helps us to understand the problem, which is the evolution in the identification of the ideologies surrounding the Church. Members who joined twenty years ago have known the outspoken anti-Catholicism typified by the first edition of 'Mormon Doctrine,' in which the Catholic church was referred to as the Church of the Devil. Members who join now receive a more diplomatic explanation of the 'Church of the Devil,' and they hear the proud news releases of positive contacts with other churches."

Finally, when dealing with Mormons, remember this. If you offend a Mormon, it's your fault for doing the offending. But if a Mormon offends you, it's also your fault, this time for choosing to be offended. Mormons want to have it both ways.

My take...

Just don't talk to her about religion.

Just know she is in a bad situation because her religion teaches things that are embarrassing. She may or may not agree with it.


Extrapolate out a bit. I have Catholic friends. For the most part, they are some of my more reasonable acquaintances. But every once in a while things from the Catholic Church come up that are highly troubling to me as a non believer. I am not confrontational in real life but I know discussing some of the things about her religion puts her in a bad situation.

Keep in mind that modern Mormons have lightened up quite a bit. Think about what Catholics used to do and teach when they were a young religion. Mormons will eventually pick and choose and do whatever they want just like Catholics.

However, their religion as a whole will still be enabling the parts that are harmful and hurtful. I don't know of any religion that doesn't have some things in their history that isn't disturbing to others.

It's just the way it is. Friendships, IMO, are about finding the things you have in common and avoiding the things you don't.

No official church doctrine makes Catholocism the "Great and abominable church". There was a very prominent church member/leader who published that idea, and some others who didn't protest it. It was rejected at the point that doctrine was clarified that everything that is against God is the great and abominable church, and everything that is FOR God is not. But you will find many older church members heard that statement and don't know enough about church history or their own doctrine to know the idea has been officially rejected.

Despite what you read here, it is not at all unusual for church members to have friends who are of other faiths. It is clear from this forum and others that there are communities where it may be true.

My suggestion is that when your friend says anti-catholic things, you ask about what they mean, and discuss it. In the course of this discussion, tell them why/how you find them offensive. It is pretty unlikely that your friend of many years is intending to offend you.

It does sound like she's having trouble dealing with the rejection her missionary may be experiencing. The reason she responded so firmly to your question is that it is a question that missionaries sometimes have, but giving up is just not an option. (So when someone does give up, there can be a huge stigma, even though church members are taught to but out and not do that.)

If you were so inclined, you might consider sending the missionary care packages. This would give you some suggestions: http://community.babycenter.com/post/a60291436

The other thing that might help your friend is to remind her that missionaries don't have to baptize people to succeed. What they have to do is be prepared to teach of Christ for those who are ready to hear them, and regularly reach out to find those who DO want to hear them, and live as examples of Christlike service and goodness. The rejection may be tough to deal with, but is completely irrelevant to their job and their success.

I was taught from the pulpit, in seminary and at family home evening that the catholic church was the great and abominable church.
It is inaccurate to say that it was not taught as doctrine.
It was about the only time one would hear the word "whore" in church--when the Catholic church was talked about.

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon121.htm

I am really sorry you are going through this. A friend should be a friend, regardless of religious beliefs, at least that is what most of us think. One of my closest friends, a formerly very liberal thinker (as am I), returned to her faith a few years ago and is now a practising Baptist.

I attend some meeting with her, I rather like going to her church at Christmas time and on ANZAC day (in Australia that is like Rememberance day in the States - but we also memorialise November 11th as well). I also attend their women's craft group if I am not working. She and I are able to be very honest with each other. She knows I am surprised at her change of heart, especially about only men Baptist priests and homesexuality being wrong etc. but also knows that if her faith makes her happy (and it does!!), then I am totally supportive of it. On the other hand she has explored with me whether I will ever 'go back to Jesus", and she knows my feelings there. I use Jesus's teachings as a backdrop to my own values and that is good enough for me. She is supportive of me in that.

I guess the long term thing is, we care about each other enough not to judge and still enjoy each other's company despite the changes that have occurred in our friendship.

I do like Boner's idea of talking with her openly. Perhaps introduce one thing to discuss, even briefly, ever second time you meet or something.

I do NOT believe she actually set out to deceive you about her beliefs. I think, deep inside she may have been expressing, at least to some extent, how she sees the doctrines of the church, and how she enables herself to live them, despite some discomfort with them. She is now facing, via her son's mission an inability to hide from the reality of life (that some people - including the Catholics in his area are NOT interested in the church and consider it a rude and an intrusion for missionaries to be bothering them).

As one writer on this board said several months ago, most of us here were active, practising, and sincere mormons. We were NOT monsters, simply deceived and doing our best. If you keep that in mind with your friend, it may help as you listen to things that may be foriegn or even offensive to you. Yes doctrinally the churh does beleive the Catholic Church to be the 'great whore of Babylon', and in your shoes, I would be offended. But I think that most mormons do NOT believe their catholic friends to be in any way evil. If anything they see THEM as deceived. Ironic isn't it?

I wish you luck with your friendship, and I do hope it can survive what is a challenging time, for her, and for you.

My two cents. If religion has not been an issue until now don't let it become one. Some of the comments above about the Mormon Church, while essentially true, are not often emphasized to members today. They are not helpful in a relationship with these friends. If they have never applied these issues to you nor demonstrated them in any way towards you perhaps they are not major issues with your friends. You are hardly likely to find much positive about Mormonism or Mormons here. While I have never had a child on a mission, I suspect that through his letters and the relating of his experiences they are seeing him living his Mormonism on a passionate twenty four hour level unlike their own every day living of it. Their own level of faith is being challenged through the new found application of it required by his mission leaders and perhaps their new attitude of staunchness is the reactionary result. I say respond with an even greater outpouring of friendship rather than negativity.

I am going to push harder to see her and go back to talking about everything else. She is too good of a person to have been pretending to be my friend all these years.

I did not think I was being negative when I asked if he could come home early. I need to find postings about navigating this minefield I now find myself in. The last thing I want to do is make things harder for her.

My view: It's entirely up to you whether you "Take" offense or not.
People have different views, and most healthy relationships stay clear of those things that are sensitive to each other.

I suggest you stick to mutual topics that you have some common interest and leave religion and politics out of everything.

There are only a few people I will discuss those topics with because we are on the same page. Otherwise. Nope.Never.

Not all relationships can handle a difference of opinion on highly emotional issues like religion and politics. No judgement. Leave it alone.

Just be nice and kind. Nothing else is needed.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2016 09:15PM by SusieQ#1.

My feelings are hurt.

Ride it out, while their son is on a mission.

I had to do that with several friends, during the Presidential election, and immediately afterwards. We declared a good-natured "moratorium" on the subject of politics. You can do the same with your friends, on the subject of religion. Take the responsibility, if you like, and tell them you are afraid you might say something that might upset them. Or, don't warn your friends at all, and just shut up.

Never tell them if a missionary is killed or injured. Never tell them about any unrest in the country their son is in. Never tall them that missionaries are not having any luck in converting people. Refrain from bragging about your own children, who are probably growing up normally, and moving forward in the real world. Your son's friendship probably ended, naturally, when the missionary kid turned weird. Mormons are very weird, and I'm so glad that your children are safe from their influence.

Still, be wary of Mormons--and Mormon "friends" and family members especially--because they are relentless! They will stalk your children! Keep your normal boundaries with Mormons, and don't let them get too intimate with you.

I would not tolerate any disrespect about your religion. You could have some responses at the ready, such as, "I'm sure that you would not like to hear negative talk about your religion, so I would appreciate likewise about mine."

If your friends can't do that much for you, then they are not your friends.

"psst! Your fly is open!"

"psst! Praying to saints is wrong!"

I believe she is most likely a real friend who wasn't bothered by these things. She may be drawing closer to Mormon beliefs now that her son is so involved. How do you know what her son says about Catholics? Does she share it with you? And if so, how does she seem when she does share?

There have been plenty of responses but I'm going to weigh in.

Her strong 'NO' to the idea of her son coming home early probably wasn't anger directed at you for suggesting it. It was probably a gut reaction of horror at the idea. It's considered shameful in Mormon culture for a missionary to come home early. People tend to assume that the missionary wasn't 'worthy', or committed some sin, or is apostatizing. Some missionaries come home for depression or illness, and are given an 'honorable release', but it still carries some amount of shame for not completing, as evidenced by the fact that they feel the need to explain why they didn't complete. Missionaries are often expected to stay on their mission even when a parent or other family member dies, and not even go home to attend the funeral. So in her eyes, it would be completely unacceptable for her son to come home, even if he's unhappy there.

As far as them dissing Catholics when you are there, I think the best thing you can do is address it immediately the next time it happens. In advance, think of something you can say, serious or humorous, whichever fits your style. Something like "Ahem! Catholic in the house! Please wait to badmouth my religion until after I leave!" They need to be considerate if they want your friendship.

I wouldn't make assumptions about her friendship being insincere. Yes, some Mormons might have been raised with the idea of the Catholic church being the 'whore of all the earth', but Mormons are really good at compartmentalizing the weirder stuff of their religion that they are uncomfortable with. And I honestly don't think they believe that sh**. I had things that I just couldn't buy into and I just tried to ignore them.

Not even close to all Mormons think badly of non-Mormons, or are out to convert them. I had a good friend in college who was Catholic. We talked a lot about religion, but I never tried to convert her, even though I hoped she might join someday. And never tried due to the fact that 1) I never liked missionary work and I thought it was pushy and rude 2) She set a very clear boundary and I knew that it would destroy our friendship to try to convert her.

BTW, she set that boundary by complaining to ME when OTHER Mormons tried to convert her. She made it clear that she felt insulted and betrayed when someone she considered a friend didn't really like her for who she was, and considered her a project. I'm not sure she intended this as a preemptive strike against missionary work, but it had that effect.

So my advice would be to set clear boundaries with her: don't put up with dissing on your religion, and have clear boundaries that you are solid in your beliefs. Consider making some pre-emptive strike statements such as 'You've been such a good friend. I'm so glad you've never tried to convert me.'

Also, your friend probably won't confide in you about her concerns about her son. TBMs want to keep a strong face, especially to people of other faiths. They would never want to say anything that would hint that their faith is weak or give a bad impression about the church. To illustrate: When I stopped believing in Mormonism, I wanted SO BADLY to call up my Catholic friend and talk about it, but I was afraid to. Because if I was wrong in my doubts, and I said something that would poison her opinion of the church, I didn't want to be responsible for endangering HER future conversion, if that makes ANY sense.

When I finally did, she was THRILLED to talk about it, and she just laughed at my fear that I was poisoning the well. There was never any chance that she'd join (and she actually left her faith as well, but that's another story). But my training to hide doubts and fears from other people kept me cut off from sources of emotional support. BTW, we have been friends for over 30 years.

If your friend has doubts or fears, she has been trained to hide them, both to save her reputation and to avoid responsibility for destroying the faith of others. But the real power of that kind of training is that people get no support when they have doubts and struggles, and so they ever fully explore issues that SHOULD be explored and questioned.

I would encourage you to assume the best about your friend's intentions and realize that she's going through a rough time. Maybe tell her you are there for her if she needs to talk frankly, because you are a neutral party. You aren't a member and never, ever WILL be (see . . . that's a preemptive strike that relieves her of the responsibility to show the church in a positive way), so you don't have a vested interest in anything she says about the situation. You just want to give her support. Maybe you could even broach the topic of her strong reaction when you suggested her son come home. Maybe she could talk that reaction out, because it really IS strange for parents to insist that a child spend that long doing something that makes them miserable, and doesn't achieve the intended results (happiness, meaning, and conversions).

Whatever you do . . best of luck.

Dear catholicfriend
I too am Roman Catholic and thought I might share my experience. I came to this site for the same reasons you did. I have worked with a TBM for about 5 years now. We share an office. I recruited him for the job and I am very glad he is my co-worker. I believe we do have a high regard for each other and occasionally we share about our families and friends and churches. About two years ago he started dropping hints that I was an object of recruitment for the LDS church. Every so often there was an invitation to his church, or once to the opening of a new temple. He must have thought I would be impressed that he spent 10 hrs of a weekend watching the televised proceedings of a meeting in Salt Lake City of his church’s apostles (it had been a beautiful spring weekend and I told him it was a crime to stay inside). He thought I would want to see the “Meet the Mormons” movie; I told him I already had met many Mormons. After about 6 months of this the blue Book of Mormon appeared on his desk. When the moment came for him to evangelize me he was rather awkward and I wondered if he had been put up to it by his wife or church members. I opened the pages of his gift and I asked him if he believed the book was historically correct, and without eye contact he said yes. I then told him that there was no Jewish DNA to be found in the native Americans (which is very strong evidence against the historicity of the BoM. In our work we have to know a lot about genetics). He paused to consider what I said for a second and then shook violently, paused another second, and then shook again. I then added that I had once tried reading the BoM while sitting in the Marriott hotel on the corner of Temple Square in Salt Lake City, but quit by the 10th page as it seemed to be written by an eighteenth century man trying to sound like somebody from Elizabethan England, and not doing a very good job. Then I added that it had been reported that portions of it were plagiarized from mistranslated portions of the King James bible. He was surprised I knew so much about the BoM, and seemed to withdraw, but then proceeded with what I assume is the rest of the standard sales pitch for Mormonism. We discussed a few small points, and he seemed to regain his enthusiasm when discussing the afterlife, but we both believe in an afterlife so there was nothing much to discuss there.

So here is what I want to tell you. I regret being so abrupt and hard-nosed with him. Yes, he was bordering on rude in not respecting my faith choice. He could have just asked if I had ever read the BoM and spared us both months of his odd attempts to entice me into his church, and my having to find gracious ways to say no. But the site of him shaking bothers me still, and I wish I could have told him sooner or found a gentler way to let him know, finally, that I was not interested. I do care a lot about this fellow, and his family. It is not a topic I am comfortable discussing with him now though. Had I been more graceful that day we might have eventually had that kind of honest discussion of the BoM that would have lead him to reconsider what his church has told him. Or maybe we might have just learned to respect each others differences.

For what it is worth, I would trust the long-term warmth of your friendship, and continue to be respectful of her faith choice. If she is not respectful of yours then gently let her know where you stand. Only time will tell what happens after that.


An_RC

I am ex-Catholic and nevermo. I married a devoutly-Mormon convert 4 years ago. Before I married her, my knowledge of Mormons was limited to Donnie & Marie and Mitt Romney. My wife knew I was non-religious, but a "good man"; therefore, her assumption was that I would convert to Mormonism once I read the Book of Mormon and felt the burning in my bosom.

The full-court press began shortly after we married. Ward members, missionaries, and members of the bishopric started love-bombing me. My wife proudly proclaimed to one and all that, though I was reluctant to convert, it was inevitable that I would convert.

The more they pushed, the more I researched. I read everything; both pro and con. I soon realized that all of the weird stuff that my wife was telling me about the church wasn't just metaphorical or allegorical, but what they actually believed, and that it was all made up by Joseph Smith and perpetuated by the current leadership.

When it became apparent that I was never going to convert, my wife started challenging me, which led to arguments about the church. During these arguments, she actually accused me of being an unknowing agent of Satan. When I called her on it, she hadn't realized what it was she had said...after 30 years in the church, the thinking had become so ingrained in her that she said things without even realizing how insensitive and inflammatory they were. We have learned it is best to ignore the church and to focus on what we have in common.

What I'm saying is that my wife is a good woman who I know loves me, but that doesn't always override the indoctrination that has been inflicted on her by the church.

Well, I think a lot like you.I once had two Mormon friends. Neither tried to convert me. None of us are friends Anya longer. The one situation the friendship was dissolved by him because he was falling in love with me and were but married, but the other was QUITE like yours!

I had this female friend who I hit it off with quickly. She always seemed caring and concerned for my mine and my husband's well being. When we went out shed offer to pay,etc. I got a worrisome twinge of sorts when she told me that she was Mormon, but ignored it.

Fast forward three years, her son was on a mission in a dangerous horrible area (she wanted him to come home desperately and he refused). It was 100% clear to me the immense pressure her family was under to have sent him away. I actually felt bad, but then realized that it was ultimately their choice to endanger their 19 year old, sheltered upper middle class son by allowing him to go to Africa of all places.

I ignored repeated questions and jabs about my husband and I not having kids, knowing she was bitter about having four children by a man she never loved.
One day she was complaining about her lack of attraction and love toward her husband. Keep in mind this had been throughout our friendship. He married her knowing she didn't love him, but he wanted her that badly, and she realized he'd treat her like a queen (emotionally and financially), I digress. I suggested she and her husband both deserved to feel what it was like to actually be in love. I felt bad not only for him, but for her who claimed the bishop had pushed her to marry her husband. She responded with,"See, you would say that because you don't know the truth. I have more morality than you, so I wouldn't leave."

Let me further clarify here. This was a woman who'd fantasize about her kind and loving husband dying so she could meet someone else. Also, how does high morality equate with outright using someone for two decades? I was furious. I told her I surely had morals, and asked her if she understood that everyone believed their faith to be "the truth"? She topped everything off with a cherry by telling me that is be unworthy as a Mormon because I'd "slept around" (for the record, I had sex with a few boyfriends before my husband, HARDLY sleeping around). That was the end for me.

I'm warning you, the arrogance and jabs only become worse!

I hate that I feel this way, but never again will I be more than an aquaintence with a Mormon person. I simply can't take the back stabbing.

Madam,
The facts are;
you've been friends for a decade,
They have not made religion an issue,
They have not tried to convert you,
They have a son on a mission,
The father was emotional at thanksgiving.

This seems to me a friendship of longstanding. Have you maybe thought this has nothing to do with your religion or theirs? Is it feasible your friend is simply depressed and missing her son? That can change how friends treat each other. Perhaps it's not about you - and your friend needs her friend?