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Posted by: RebelJamesDean ( )
Date: March 29, 2017 07:09PM

The survival of consciousness, separate from the brain, is not incompatible with no belief in a God. Life currently exists without evidence or proof of God. Who thinks consciousness survives and why?

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Posted by: paintinginthewin ( )
Date: March 29, 2017 07:15PM

well I do. But not with a particular personalty that likes plastic covered patent leather or a particular european cattle side leather to sew purses with- lol- because //I think that those preferences are not my personality, they are just utility and the joy of the moment in this pursuit

My husband seems at bit Catholic at times says he's a Diest. I gather the energy of life flows through all that lives and most matter maybe between the molecules sub atomically there is some quark or bit called a something in physics that rotates around little teeny pieces of things. I guess that could could be energy. May be consciousness rides on something like this.

Maybe not. who knows.

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Posted by: Puli ( )
Date: March 29, 2017 07:32PM

The question that needs to be answered before anyone can decide if consciousness can exist separate from the brain is just what is consciousness?


We would need to have a better understanding of what it is and how it exists with and/or without a brain and body in order to know if it can exist without a brain or body. Until then, it is just an unknown.

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Posted by: RebelJamesDean ( )
Date: March 29, 2017 07:40PM

Of course it is unknown Puli. If I had the answer I wouldn't have posited the question. I am looking for people's best reasons as to why and why not?

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: March 29, 2017 07:50PM

I'm convinced there is something in the core of the person (consciousness, or soul,or spirit or some other term) that cannot be destroyed and survives the death of the earthly body.
I have many very specific experiences, (some witnessed by others), that lead me to that conclusion.I have no other way to explain what I have experienced that makes sense.

It gives me comfort to know that those that have been part of my family that I loved are still "alive" in some sense.

The idea that something can be totally destroyed, does not fit with how the universe works. Changes in some form, yes, but disappear into nothing? I don't think so.

None of this leads me to believe or think there are some kinds of heavens of certain kinds of religious beliefs/churches, for instance, where rewards and punishments are handed out. Those are constructed by the imagination of mankind as a way to make sense of the world they live in. People often have a need to believe in a deity/s or higher power. I don't.

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Posted by: Cabdriver Philosopher (nli) ( )
Date: March 29, 2017 08:18PM

Of course I'm not technically an Exmormon, but I certainly qualify as an "ex-atheist." And most of my immediate and extended family is still on church rolls...

I just finished watching a YouTube video on how "dark energy" and "dark matter" make up 95% of the Universe, and we know next to nothing about either. My friend Simon Southerton--whom I believe is agnostic--speaks of the "God of the Gaps" and the "shrinking room" for "Creation" in the appearance of life on Earth. Those are certainly powerful ideas, and it's not surprising many of the über faithful get all up in arms over those challenges. I admit they make me uncomfortable, but that's all.

What I think is undeniable is the reality "faith" gives purpose and meaning to many--even if it's an illusion--and it's an act of "selfish narcissism" to deny someone that "comfort." My problem with Mormonism is the faithful insist on "inflicting" their beliefs and practices on those around them, and at that point I have no trouble "swinging back."

I have strong "secular humanist views" as far as the presence of religion in government or education.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: March 29, 2017 08:25PM

No, I don't "believe" such an idea.
Mainly because there's no evidence of any kind to support it.
And the claims made about it are generally rather silly and ignorant of basic science, like the ones about "energy can't be created or destroyed, so our energy must continue after we live!"
Yeah, there isn't any "our energy." We USE energy to live. Once we aren't living anymore, we no longer take in, process, and use energy.

Of course, were somebody finally able to present some evidence of "consciousness" existing without a brain, I'd accept the idea. As of now, and as far back in human history as you can go, nobody has ever managed to produce any such evidence. Until they do, there's no reason to "believe" it. Even for "purpose and meaning."

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Posted by: RebelJamesDean ( )
Date: March 29, 2017 08:55PM

The question is clearly one of the final frontiers of science. If there is a separate consciousness, from the physical body/brain, it may require little to no energy, or possibly receive what it needs to exist from dark energy, or some other force we do not understand.

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: March 29, 2017 09:07PM

Ponder this.

If there is life after death, why call it death?

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: March 29, 2017 09:26PM

And the claims made about it are generally rather silly and ignorant of basic science, like the ones about "energy can't be created or destroyed, so our energy must continue after we live!"

COMMENT: Well, I agree that *is* a rather silly argument. But, I doubt that is the best argument for survival.
____________________________________________________

Yeah, there isn't any "our energy." We USE energy to live. Once we aren't living anymore, we no longer take in, process, and use energy.

COMMENT: Where there is mass there is energy. (E=MC<2>) *That* is basic science. So, there is inherent energy in every physical system, over and above the energy associated with metabolism. Moreover, consciousness, if it is an independent system of some kind must have both inherent energy, and the ability to harness energy from other sources. Otherwise, there would be no mechanism to support cognition and information processing. There are many potential sources for such energy. So, I do not think the issue is about energy. Rather, it is about the mechanisms of information processing that might exist outside of the brain.
_______________________________________

Of course, were somebody finally able to present some evidence of "consciousness" existing without a brain, I'd accept the idea. As of now, and as far back in human history as you can go, nobody has ever managed to produce any such evidence. Until they do, there's no reason to "believe" it. Even for "purpose and meaning."

COMMENT: Of course, if you cannot define "evidence" in a way that encompasses all of science, as you persistently refuse to do, there is no way to determine what it would take to convince you. But, in any case, by standard evidentiary principles of cognitive science (reports of human experience), there is such evidence, whether someone deems it sufficient or not. All NDEs are evidence, as one example. As I have repeatedly tried to inform you, notwithstanding your stubborn resistance, "evidence" is simply a fact (e.g. a report of human experience) that makes a conclusion more probable than it would be absent such fact. Why do you constantly resist such a simple, intuitive, and scientific, concept, that works for all of science, and not just physics?

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: March 29, 2017 09:44PM

Henry Bemis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT: Well, I agree that *is* a rather silly
> argument. But, I doubt that is the best argument
> for survival.

It's the one "believers" most often give me.
Not that there are any "good" arguments for survival...:)

> COMMENT: Where there is mass there is energy.
> (E=MC<2>) *That* is basic science. So, there is
> inherent energy in every physical system, over and
> above the energy associated with metabolism.

Sure, what's left of us supplies energy to worms, bugs, etc. That's not consciousness, of course.

> Moreover, consciousness, if it is an independent
> system of some kind must have both inherent
> energy, and the ability to harness energy from
> other sources. Otherwise, there would be no
> mechanism to support cognition and information
> processing. There are many potential sources for
> such energy. So, I do not think the issue is about
> energy. Rather, it is about the mechanisms of
> information processing that might exist outside of
> the brain.

With "if" and "might" being the key words, since there's no evidence for any such mechanisms.

> COMMENT: Of course, if you cannot define
> "evidence" in a way that encompasses all of
> science, as you persistently refuse to do, there
> is no way to determine what it would take to
> convince you.

That's not an honest statement.
The definition used by science does encompass all of science. Evidence is demonstrable, verifiable, and repeatable.
It's quite simple.

> But, in any case, by standard
> evidentiary principles of cognitive science
> (reports of human experience), there is such
> evidence, whether someone deems it sufficient or
> not.

Not so.
There is evidence that humans have "experiences." There is NO evidence those "experiences" are anything other than in-brain "experiences," or that they represent anything "external" or "surviving after death" in any way. Yes, people CLAIM they are such things, but since they can't SHOW they are, their claims are worthless.

> All NDEs are evidence, as one example. As I
> have repeatedly tried to inform you,
> notwithstanding your stubborn resistance...

Again, not an honest statement.
NDEs, if honestly reported (and there are demonstrated cases where they aren't), are evidence of "experiences." Nobody can demonstrate they are "external experiences," or that the "experiences" occur anywhere outside of a functioning brain. They MIGHT occur outside of it, and they might not. As I've pointed out to YOU numerous times. They are evidence of "experiences," not of any kind of external consciousness.

> "evidence" is simply a fact (e.g. a report of
> human experience) that makes a conclusion more
> probable than it would be absent such fact. Why do
> you constantly resist such a simple, intuitive,
> and scientific, concept, that works for all of
> science, and not just physics?

I don't "resist" anything. That's not the scientific definition of the word -- they're not verifiable or repeatable, and in the example you gave above, they're not even evidence of what you claim they're evidence of. Why do you constantly make up a definition that isn't science, and call it that, and claim that "evidence" is "evidence" for something it's not evidence of?

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 08:07AM

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Again, not an honest statement.
> NDEs, if honestly reported (and there are
> demonstrated cases where they aren't), are
> evidence of "experiences." Nobody can demonstrate
> they are "external experiences," or that the
> "experiences" occur anywhere outside of a
> functioning brain. They MIGHT occur outside of
> it, and they might not. As I've pointed out to
> YOU numerous times. They are evidence of
> "experiences," not of any kind of external
> consciousness.


I don't see how Henry's statement is dishonest, implying that Henry is less than honest. Things aren't honest or dishonest based on whether you agree or not.


I'm curious, ifi-: in your opinion, is the experiencer justified in believing their experience, regardless of the degree of verifiability etc? The part of many reported NDEs that is most interesting is how *real* the experience is to the experiencer, long after the fact, "more real than anything I thought was real before," and how it often alters the experiencer's behaviour in dramatic ways.

Of course this is problematic, the experience of a schizophrenic also feels rather really real to the experiencer. But it's problematic the other way as well, since *all* experiences are subjective, and not all true things are necessarily verifiable by the scientific method. Or:

Do you disagree with that? Do you think that if something is true then it *necessarily* must be demonstrable via the scientific method, at least in principle?

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 09:38AM

That's not an honest statement.
The definition used by science does encompass all of science. Evidence is demonstrable, verifiable, and repeatable.
It's quite simple.

COMMENT: First, this is not a definition of evidence, it is a statement about the evaluation of evidence. Second, it does not work for most of what is called science, for example biology, psychology, and virtually all of the social scientists. For example, when an archeologist or biologist finds a fossil that fits into some favored evolutionary theory, she takes that as evidence for or against the theory, without waiting to see whether that evidence is "repeatable" or to use the scientific term "replicable." When a social scientists seeks to understand the social causes for a shift in attitudes within a population, she takes the social data as evidence for or against a theory or postulate. There is no laboratory, experiment, no verification, and no replication. There is just data as evidence for or against a theory or postulate. The examples are endless.
_____________________________________

> But, in any case, by standard
> evidentiary principles of cognitive science
> (reports of human experience), there is such
> evidence, whether someone deems it sufficient or
> not.

Not so.
There is evidence that humans have "experiences." There is NO evidence those "experiences" are anything other than in-brain "experiences," or that they represent anything "external" or "surviving after death" in any way. Yes, people CLAIM they are such things, but since they can't SHOW they are, their claims are worthless.

COMMENT: The reports of the experiences ARE the evidence. People having NDEs are not "claiming" anything. They are reporting. Moreover, human reports of their experiences are not per se "worthless" as evidence. They are subject to credibility considerations, yes; but to summarily discount their evidential value because they do not neatly fit into your preconceived worldview is manifestly unscientific. Consider the cognitive neuroscientist who seeks evidence correlating certain brain functions with cognitive abilities. The experiential reports of patients with brain impairment are essential, even though they are not "verifiable," or "replicable."
_________________________________________

> All NDEs are evidence, as one example. As I
> have repeatedly tried to inform you,
> notwithstanding your stubborn resistance...

Again, not an honest statement.
NDEs, if honestly reported (and there are demonstrated cases where they aren't), are evidence of "experiences." Nobody can demonstrate they are "external experiences," or that the "experiences" occur anywhere outside of a functioning brain. They MIGHT occur outside of it, and they might not. As I've pointed out to YOU numerous times. They are evidence of "experiences," not of any kind of external consciousness.

COMMENT: Yes, they are "evidence" in the form of personal experiences. The question is, "what are they evidence of?" That requires context, and "connecting the dots" to theories. And in the case of some theory or claim of survival of death, NDEs are most certainly evidence supporting such a theory; whether such evidence can be explained, or explained away, in some other way or not.
__________________________________

I don't "resist" anything. That's not the scientific definition of the word -- they're not verifiable or repeatable, and in the example you gave above, they're not even evidence of what you claim they're evidence of. Why do you constantly make up a definition that isn't science, and call it that, and claim that "evidence" is "evidence" for something it's not evidence of?

COMMENT: My definition of evidence (Bayesian) is exactly how scientists approach facts and theories. They takes bare facts, as relevant to their particular scientific inquiry, and if such facts appear to be relevant to the question at hand, they try to connect them to theories, either to confirm or invalidate them. There is no restriction as to the kind of evidence a scientist can consider, including no per se rejection of the evidential value of the reports of human experience in the relevant scientific context.

Open up any science textbook, and look in the index under "evidence." You won't find anything. That is because there are no necessary and sufficient conditions (e.g. verification or replication) for what can be deemed evidence in science. In practice it is broadly defined. Thus, even a mathematical model can be considered evidence of a theory if it is consistent and has explanatory power.

What I have said here is both obvious and uncontroversial. But, you continue to resist. Your posts on this subject betray more about your personal psychological commitments than your knowledge of science.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 02:10PM

obviously come back with the spirit of Warren Jeffs.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2017 02:12PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 12:13AM

There is significant evidence that apostles can exist without a brain. So, why not consciousness?

You sound like a broken record asking for evidence, when the onus is on you. If you're not supposed to find it, which could be the case for your own existential reasons, you won't. Actually if you deep down don't want to find it, because a certain religion did unconscionable things to you, you won't.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: March 29, 2017 08:47PM

I have no beliefs. Que sera, sera.

However, since you bring it up, the only thing that disappointed me about realizing the Mormon Church was just another phony scheme, is that I loved the idea of eternal progression.

I don't mean I liked the idea of being top dog in the Star System Kolob, and I didn't want to lord it over hordes of people on some planet simultaneously punishing and finding car keys while ignoring starving children. What I like about eternal progression was the ever increasing knowledge and ability. I wanted to make my own flowers--the most beautiful and exotic ever. Then maybe go to work on some butterflies or birds.

Learning. Honing. Perfecting skills. Exploring forever. I miss Eternal Progression.

But, like I said, "Que sera----sera!"

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Posted by: Stray Mutt ( )
Date: March 29, 2017 09:05PM

Speaking for myself, no.

I am meat, bone and chemical reactions. My body creates its consciousness. Consciousness isn't something that inhabits my body.

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: March 29, 2017 09:15PM

If the whole first law is a real thing and we are supposing that our consciousness is energy, than why are we not conscious of eternity? And if we are unaware of the entirety of our existence, only a miniscule portion of it, than what is our conscious worth anyway?

The thing with this whole discussion is it requires to some extent an imagination that I lack. I have to make up all sorts of things to fill in the holes and I'm just not creative enough.

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Posted by: Itzpapalotl ( )
Date: March 29, 2017 09:21PM

I like the idea, but I don't know that I necessarily believe it can happen unless there's valid, peer researched evidence to show it's a natural phenomena.

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Posted by: getbusylivin ( )
Date: March 29, 2017 09:43PM

Based on my study of dozens of works of scripture from all of the world's great religions, I can confirm with absolute certainty that the last thing I'll see and hear is Porky Pig waving and saying, "A-be-a-be-a-be-a-be-a... That's All, Folks!"

Fade to black.

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Posted by: stellam ( )
Date: March 29, 2017 10:10PM

Before I was born there was nothing, and there will be nothing after I die. For me, life is that much more precious for being only what it is. I find it liberating to live without an illusory safety-net of so-called life after death.

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Posted by: thinking ( )
Date: March 29, 2017 10:54PM

This is an interesting topic. While I am obviously curious about the subject, I don't really have any belief in the matter.

What I do find interesting, is when scientists step of the path of orthodoxy and start probing into the direction of woo (life after death, reincarnation, consciousness). I find the subject interesting and its fun to compare and contrast differing ideas and research, but wow there is a blow back from traditional science.

Its interesting that when researcher decides to apply the scientific method to reincarnation for example dogma comes out of the woodwork quick. A lot of the time people dismiss things with spending any time thinking about the issue at hand when it goes against a world view.

The University of Virginia has been pushing boundaries and questioning orthodoxy.

http://uvamagazine.org/articles/the_science_of_reincarnation

https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/

While I don't "believe" for or against I find such work necessary if we want to better understand our world. Question everything, keep researching maybe they figure something out maybe they don't. Out of hand dismissal completely shuts down understanding. What once seemed magical now has explanation. This path deserves research as well IMO. The western materialistic view of reality is a cultural construct which is highly dogmatized. While in the east where Buddhism is prevalent, reality as a result of mental consciousness is accepted as possibility. Quite the paradox when you think about it. The faith system of the east is more inline with Western Science than prevalent religions in the west. We live in wacky times.

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Posted by: spiritist ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 12:33PM

Interesting magazine article on 'reincarnation' of young children. Very interesting was the fact 90% were the same gender in past incarnations.

The 'guided meditation' I did had one objective in identifying 'changing roles' based on the different incarnations.

I seen incarnations where my wife was my mother, my son was my dad, and my granddaughter was my wife. I haven't seen an incarnation yet were I or someone in my current incarnation was a different sex, however, I have been told we must experience that and even more to 'progress'.

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Posted by: spiritist ( )
Date: March 29, 2017 11:39PM

As an Exmo I 'believe' in life after death.

I have had 'personal experiences' to validate this, so I 'believe' it. I can't quite go to 'knowing' yet without more experiences. I can't prove anything but did get a date from my passed Mom I wasn't aware of and it did check out.

I have heard voices and saw a vision 'help' me in 2 cases, I have tried 'mediumship' and believe I connected to many passed relatives, I have 'channeled' information from someone unseen. seen 2 past lives (can't have a past life w/o surviving death), did one astral projection and a number of meditations and talked to 'spirit guides', etc..

None of the methods I used to validate my 'beliefs' are very 'scientific' as there is no support documentation or evidence except my diary written by me. I saw and heard things that came to pass, but could future truths/information been self generated somehow ----- that is the question?

Anyone can go to 'past life guided meditations' and have an 'experience' ---- or at least the few people reporting they tried did have an 'experience'. No one explained to me how their minds came up with what they got but none immediately said yes that was a past life either.

One can pay to be hypnotized and regressed to identify past lives also.

One can also go to a medium and try that approach to contact passed relatives.

Finally, one can read books on mediumship and channeling and try themselves.

If this information is really 'important' you can study/pay and attempt to find out for yourself!

Good Luck on whatever you do!

PS The main reason I 'wanted' these type of answers was because I was 'brain washed' to believe 'God-type' information was important as a Mormon. Therefore, even after leaving Mormonism that 'brain washing' stayed with me. However, since I now believe there is 'no true church' that one must join or no 'hell' to worry about, I am not sure this 'information' is still as important as I thought it would be. It is still 'very interesting' though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2017 11:56PM by spiritist.

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Posted by: annon for this ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 01:01AM

I had an experience where I had copper toxicity, heave metal poisoning. For some reason my blood level of free copper was 5x the high limit. In the past I had high industrial exposure to various copper compounds. Or maybe its the singular time I went nutty in a lifetime. My mind did some very odd things.

My perception or awareness was extraordinarily high. It was as if I understood so much more than my normal state. I had almost perfect retrieval of memories, and those memories were incredibly crisp. It was if I thought about a topic I could access every memory going back to early childhood which was pertinent to form the opinion. It was like the divider between our conscious and unconscious mind was pulled away. This state lasted over a week and too much to go into more detail I could probably write a short book on it. Put it was like seeing with perfect vision how the mind works behind the sense. The amount of calculating being done was staggering.

The odd thing was I could recall what seemed to be my own memories, but they were not from this time or place. They were vivid, first person perspective, and felt very familiar. As familiar as any memory I have from this life. I was blow away at this feeling of how old I really am and a feeling of oneness. I had always been a spirit shmearit bs guy, I would call bs on silly spirit crap, but this was like a beautiful understanding of the all.

Could be nuts, but if there was a way to give this experience to anyone else it would turn anyone's subjective reality on its head. Life after death? I don't know, but I see exactly how it could be that way.

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Posted by: annon for this ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 01:16AM

As you spoke about I looked into past life hypnosis. It's a bit quaky for my taste, but I can't say I'm not somewhat curious to give it a shot and see if whatever they draw out corresponds to those memories. Just to satisfy my curiosity.

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Posted by: spiritist ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 01:23AM

It may run over $100 per hour and they may want you to commit for multiple hours.

I would go on the net and look up 'past life guided meditations' and see if they work for you first.

Note: All a guided meditation is if done correctly is 'self hypnosis' per the hypnotist I know.

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Posted by: michaelm (not logged in) ( )
Date: March 29, 2017 11:41PM

Damn, that's a scary thought. If I kill a mosquito while it is sucking my blood and it's consciousness survives will it come after me? Fuck, it's bad enough to get bit by the damn things, let alone worrying about their pissed off ghosts trying to get even! Gives me nightmares!

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Posted by: OutOfMyMind ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 12:37AM

Some questions to ponder...l

If the soul can exist without the body, why bother with the body in the first place?

Since evolution is about passing on mutations that help the person survive though sexual reproduction, there is no mechanism to allow for the evolution of a soul that detaches at death. What would be the method of passing on the mutation required that happen after death?

In the living being, the brain organizes, stores and processes the "self". When the soul detaches, what organizes the "self" and how did that come into being? What keeps the "self" together without a rain, you know that whole second law of thermodynamics and entropy thing.

It's interesting to speculate, but when one starts thinking about an actual way this would happen and evolve, it seems highly unlikely, that there is a detachable soul.

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Posted by: spiritist ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 01:19AM

I can't answer all your questions but we/souls 'reincarnate' to 'progress' through 'experiencing' physical life. No one time life either 1 minute or 100 years then go to heaven and 'sing praises' or whatever.

Therefore, I believe we have been 'reincarnating' for billions of years ----- yes that would mean we were plants, animals and possibly aliens also.

I really can't understand, as a human, how this reincarnation into different physical bodies helps us progress or why we need to. However, being 'eternal' with all the ramifications, is hard to understand right now also.

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Posted by: OutOfMyMind ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 04:24PM

spiritist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can't answer all your questions but we/souls
> 'reincarnate' to 'progress' through 'experiencing'
> physical life. No one time life either 1 minute or
> 100 years then go to heaven and 'sing praises' or
> whatever.

Factual citation supporting this? All I see is an extraordinary claim presented as fact.

You do not answer a single question I asked.

To this I add, how does the soul move from the point of death, to the point of reincarnation?

>
> Therefore, I believe we have been 'reincarnating'
> for billions of years ----- yes that would mean we
> were plants, animals and possibly aliens also.
>
> I really can't understand, as a human, how this
> reincarnation into different physical bodies helps
> us progress or why we need to. However, being
> 'eternal' with all the ramifications, is hard to
> understand right now also.

Perhaps you do not understand, because it does not actually happen?

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Posted by: spiritist ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 07:53PM

Earth calling "out of my mind" ----- great 'name' for you based on your 'out of my mind' question.

You do not answer a single question I asked.
_______________________________________________

Remember your first question: If the soul can exist without the body, why bother with the body in the first place?

Does that sound familiar????? Out of my mind ---- Exactly!!!!!

Once you come back into your mind ----- let us know and I will answer your other questions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will know in the future it is fruitless answering any of your questions because you cannot read English or remember what you asked!!!!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2017 07:58PM by spiritist.

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Posted by: OutOfMyNibd ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 08:27PM

spiritist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Earth calling "out of my mind" ----- great 'name'
> for you based on your 'out of my mind' question.
>
> You do not answer a single question I asked.

Re-read your reply to my post, you did not actually ask a question, or was the statement "You do not answer a single question I asked." quoting me without any appropriate quoting to denote the? If you want to be understood, you need to be clear.



> _______________________________________________
>
> Remember your first question: If the soul can
> exist without the body, why bother with the body
> in the first place?
>
> Does that sound familiar????? Out of my mind ----
> Exactly!!!!!
>
> Once you come back into your mind ----- let us
> know and I will answer your other
> questions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> I will know in the future it is fruitless
> answering any of your questions because you cannot
> read English or remember what you asked!!!!!!

Wow, a bunch of condescending crud. Sorry but a CLAIM that reincarnation exists is not an answer, it is an UNSUPPORTED CLAIM. Reincarnation still has the same issue I raised with my first question:

The soul would have to exist outside the body while it moved from on body to the next, if it can do this, why bother with the bodies?

Since the same issue exists for your alleged answer, the question was never answered.

If you want to use reincarnation, you need to show that it does in fact exist, not just state your belief that it does as a fact.

You can now spew more condescending stuff pretending it makes an actual point.

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Posted by: spiritist ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 09:33PM

spiritist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Earth calling "out of my mind" ----- great 'name'
> for you based on your 'out of my mind' question.
>
> You do not answer a single question I asked.

Re-read your reply to my post, you did not actually ask a question, or was the statement "You do not answer a single question I asked." quoting me without any appropriate quoting to denote the? If you want to be understood, you need to be clear.



> _______________________________________________
>
> Remember your first question: If the soul can
> exist without the body, why bother with the body
> in the first place?
>
> Does that sound familiar????? Out of my mind ----
> Exactly!!!!!
>
> Once you come back into your mind ----- let us
> know and I will answer your other
> questions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> I will know in the future it is fruitless
> answering any of your questions because you cannot
> read English or remember what you asked!!!!!!

Wow, a bunch of condescending crud. Sorry but a CLAIM that reincarnation exists is not an answer, it is an UNSUPPORTED CLAIM. Reincarnation still has the same issue I raised with my first question:

The soul would have to exist outside the body while it moved from on body to the next, if it can do this, why bother with the bodies?

Since the same issue exists for your alleged answer, the question was never answered.

If you want to use reincarnation, you need to show that it does in fact exist, not just state your belief that it does as a fact.

You can now spew more condescending stuff pretending it makes an actual point.
_____________________________________

I have a 'difficult time' believing you have more than a US high school education where English was not your primary language!

You continue to can't remember and not reread what you asked and stated!

Sorry, you do not qualify for an answer as you still appear to be 'out of my(your) mind!

Then to show your IQ or lack thereof you state: "If you want to use reincarnation, you need to show that it does in fact exist, not just state your belief that it does as a fact."

Really!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are you a Monitor/rule maker'???????

Do you even know you are on a board where 'opinions/experiences/beliefs' are normally cited to further the conversation. You could make that comment to almost everyone on this board and on almost every thread!!!!

Is it 'condescending' to repeat you have a very accurate 'screen name'???? You really have to 'wake up' and get 'real'!

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Posted by: OutOfMyMind ( )
Date: March 31, 2017 01:19AM

You have not address a singe question I asked, When I clarify and address what have said, all you do is insult.

Don't worry. I am not offended. It is what I expect when I say things that cause cognitive dissonance in those that use faith to maintain unsupported, and seemingly unthought out ideas.

In order to have a detachable soul, there must be something that organizes, stores and processes that which makes up the soul. Unless, of course, you fall back on the last resort of the faithful and claim some sort of magic.

You have shown no mechanism for the transfer from a detached soul to a magic soul that exists without something that prevents the entropy of the second law of thermodynamics.

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Posted by: OutOfMyMind ( )
Date: March 31, 2017 01:54AM

If you want to quote a post you are replying to, there is a URI under the message labeled "quote". It quotes the text in a uniform way that is much more understandable than your method.

And you question *my* education level. Geez.

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 10:50AM

If the soul can exist without the body, why bother with the body in the first place?

COMMENT: Because it exists as part of who we are, for better or worse.
______________________________________

Since evolution is about passing on mutations that help the person survive though sexual reproduction, there is no mechanism to allow for the evolution of a soul that detaches at death. What would be the method of passing on the mutation required that happen after death?

COMMENT: Well, whether there is such a mechanism is precisely the issue, so you cannot just announce there is no mechanism. There is no suggestion or requirement that there be a physical "mutation" of any kind. A possible mechanism as related to the existence and release of the soul at death might be just part of the natural order of things, broadly considered from a perspective unavailable to human beings.
_________________________________

In the living being, the brain organizes, stores and processes the "self". When the soul detaches, what organizes the "self" and how did that come into being? What keeps the "self" together without a rain, you know that whole second law of thermodynamics and entropy thing.

COMMENT: There are a lot of problems associated with the idea that the brain processes "the self." This requires the brain to not only generate consciousness, but generate a subjective "I" that is associated with it. Neuroscience has not identified any mechanism for either. But speculations abound.
_________________________________

It's interesting to speculate, but when one starts thinking about an actual way this would happen and evolve, it seems highly unlikely, that there is a detachable soul.

COMMENT: Yes. From the point of view of neuroscience it does seem quite fantastic. Nonetheless, there is evidence, specifically NDEs and past lives of children, that is both compelling and difficult to explain within a purely materialist worldview.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 01:32PM

Henry Bemis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT: Yes. From the point of view of
> neuroscience it does seem quite fantastic.
> Nonetheless, there is evidence, specifically NDEs
> and past lives of children, that is both
> compelling and difficult to explain within a
> purely materialist worldview.

"difficult to explain" is an argument from incredulity -- fallacious and more than a bit silly.

"compelling" is an opinion...and not a very reasonable one.

A simple example should show why:

Some people report having "experiences" of seeing cartoon-like characters in their "regular" vision. They report seeing these characters (often animals, but not always) sitting in chairs alongside "real" people. People have been reporting these "experiences" for hundreds of years.

By Henry's standard of "evidence," these would be evidence that there are cartoon characters mingling among us, unseen by all but a few people.

By science's standard of "evidence," the reports of these people are evidence that they are experiencing SOMETHING, but that that something is was unknown (it COULD have been cartoon characters mingling among us, it could have been visual delusions, it could have been lots of things -- what it WAS wasn't known).

So some scientists worked to find out what they WERE. As it turns out, when certain brain regions are damaged, optic nerve pathways usually being involved, or by brain tumors, "crosstalk" is produced along optic nerve pathways, and visual patterns of remembered "characters" can get inserted into the information from the eyes going to the brain, resulting in people "seeing" things that aren't actually there. It's called Charles Bonnet Syndrome.

The same applies to "NDEs." The reports people make of them are evidence people are having "experiences" (assuming they're being honest). The reports are NOT evidence regarding WHAT the "experiences" are. That people have the "experiences" does not mean the "experiences" have an "out-of-body" source. It does not mean the "experiences" have an in-brain source. The source of the "experiences" is not known -- period. They are NOT evidence of out-of-body consciousness, because they COULD be in-brain experiences. Until the source of the "experiences" can be established, like with Charles Bonnet syndrome, the source is UNKNOWN. Not by default "supernatural." Not by default "in-brain." Unknown. Period. It's fallacy (and frankly, dishonesty) to claim they're evidence of out-of-body consciousness. They're evidence of "experiences," the source of which is currently unknown.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/when-seeing-isnt-believing-charles-bonnet-syndrome/

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 04:37PM

"By Henry's standard of "evidence," these would be evidence that there are cartoon characters mingling among us, unseen by all but a few people."

COMMENT: Nonsense. "Evidence" is a term that is applied to facts in the context of a given theory, or postulate. There is a theory or postulate of survival of death that is supported by NDE reports, among other facts. As such, NDE reports represent some evidence in support of that theory. There is no theory of cartoon characters.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 09:09PM

Henry Bemis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT: Nonsense. "Evidence" is a term that is
> applied to facts in the context of a given theory,
> or postulate. There is a theory or postulate of
> survival of death that is supported by NDE
> reports, among other facts. As such, NDE reports
> represent some evidence in support of that theory.

Nonsense. Evidence is used to verify or falsify hypotheses, evidence of verified hypotheses is used to build theories -- and to confirm/modify them.

There is no "theory" of "survival of death." There are hypotheses. Since no evidence can yet confirm the hypotheses -- but as of yet they aren't falsified either -- they remain hypotheses. Not theories.

> There is no theory of cartoon characters.

There were indeed hypotheses regarding the reported "experiences" of people with Charles Bonnet syndrome. Scientists went in search of evidence to see which (if any) of those hypotheses were correct. They found plenty of evidence to show the ones regarding brain damage were correct.

Reports of "NDEs" are indeed evidence, but they're not evidence of what you claim they are. They're evidence that people have such "experiences." They are NOT evidence of the source of those experiences, or that they experiences are "out of body." That they are "out of body" is an hypothesis -- and one without any supporting evidence.

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Posted by: OutOfMyMind ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 04:36PM

Henry Bemis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the soul can exist without the body, why bother
> with the body in the first place?
>
> COMMENT: Because it exists as part of who we are,
> for better or worse.

Yes, it exists WITH THE BODY. The question is still, why use something that is not needed for the existence of the soul.

> ______________________________________
>
> Since evolution is about passing on mutations that
> help the person survive though sexual
> reproduction, there is no mechanism to allow for
> the evolution of a soul that detaches at death.
> What would be the method of passing on the
> mutation required that happen after death?
>
> COMMENT: Well, whether there is such a mechanism
> is precisely the issue, so you cannot just
> announce there is no mechanism. There is no
> suggestion or requirement that there be a physical
> "mutation" of any kind. A possible mechanism as
> related to the existence and release of the soul
> at death might be just part of the natural order
> of things, broadly considered from a perspective
> unavailable to human beings.

I made no claim that it does not exist, I said "highly unlikely" which is different. If you want to claim that a detachable soul exists, you would need to supply the evidence that it does. It seems to me that you can't even answer these questions about how it would work.

> _________________________________
>
> In the living being, the brain organizes, stores
> and processes the "self". When the soul detaches,
> what organizes the "self" and how did that come
> into being? What keeps the "self" together without
> a rain, you know that whole second law of
> thermodynamics and entropy thing.
>
> COMMENT: There are a lot of problems associated
> with the idea that the brain processes "the self."
> This requires the brain to not only generate
> consciousness, but generate a subjective "I" that
> is associated with it. Neuroscience has not
> identified any mechanism for either. But
> speculations abound.

At least with the brain, that is something to generate the consciousness, etc., which is my point! Once the self detaches, what generates the consciousness?????

> _________________________________
>
> It's interesting to speculate, but when one starts
> thinking about an actual way this would happen and
> evolve, it seems highly unlikely, that there is a
> detachable soul.
>
> COMMENT: Yes. From the point of view of
> neuroscience it does seem quite fantastic.
> Nonetheless, there is evidence, specifically NDEs
> and past lives of children, that is both
> compelling and difficult to explain within a
> purely materialist worldview.

I do agree that there are experiences that people have attributed to reincarnation and out of body experiences, but those attributions do not continue fact. I have studied many of these claims, and once you get past the internet echo chamber that simply echos what many believe, the cases I have looked into are far different.

The current NDE research indicates that further research is needed, but does not conclude what they are.

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Posted by: Cpete ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 01:01AM

No. Consciousness before life? Maybe.

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Posted by: William Law ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 01:44AM

No.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 02:59AM


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Posted by: RebelJamesDeanHMEEU ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 02:21PM

Steve - good catch. Apparently, I was over the letter limit. BTW - I lived next door to Flora, Heather, Laurel, Robert, and Holly growing up. I met your GF numerous times, all while he was a GA.

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Posted by: oneinbillions ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 03:31AM

I became an atheist because I cannot believe in things with zero evidence. To me, facts and reason are all that really matter when we're discussing what does or does not exist.

So no, I do not believe that consciousness can survive after death. Because everything we do know about consciousness suggests that it originates in our brains, even if we can't pin down precisely how or where yet. It follows logically that once the brain dies, there can be no consciousness, and there is absolutely zero evidence for any kind of transfer or ascension post-mortem. Of course I don't claim to know for sure that consciousness won't survive death -- it simply seems extremely unlikely.

I do understand the desire to believe that we'll continue existing beyond death, because oblivion is a very heavy subject and one that is difficult for any of us to really grasp. Though I consider it to be no different from the billions of years before I was born -- I didn't "know" that I didn't exist yet. There was no fear or worry then. Why should death be any different?

I think filling in the gaps in our knowledge with superstition and myth is and always has been a dangerous road.

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Posted by: RebelJamesDean ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 02:33PM

Billion - thanks for your comment. You have succinctly described where I am currently at. I respect the atheists that sincerely believe this life gives them even more fulfillment and meaning, given their belief that this life is a one time thing. For myself, and I suspect others, it is still challenging and evokes unpleasant emotions. Part of my evolution I suppose.

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Posted by: ALifeExamined ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 06:39AM

I'm currently reading a rather fascinating book, Consciousness Beyond Life, by Pim van Lommel, I'd recommend it to anyone interested in this subject.

https://www.amazon.com/Consciousness-Beyond-Life-Near-Death-Experience/dp/0061777269

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 01:20PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2017 01:21PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 07:32AM


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Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 08:43AM

I see the concept of understanding the surviving the death of our physical bodies or not surviving, as only a limitation of the capacity of our human brains. The only answer for us is to wait and see if you wake up somewhere else, or to never know if you simply cease to exist, after death. If we had a higher brain capacity, we might be able to acquire evidence and get a difinitive answer about this. But our human brains are too small or undeveloped.

If I tried to teach my dog the concepts of algebra or calculas, he could never get it because his brain isn't capable of comprehending that level of abstract thinking. But his life is governed by those mathmatical concepts, the same as my life is. I can calculate how long it takes to walk from one location to another. He can't do that but he still needs enough time to make the same trip. With a higher level of brain capacity, the answers about life and death might be obvious to us.

I've had several dogs who got sick and passed on eventually. A few of them looked me in the eyes as if to say goodbye, shortly before they died. There was no worry or stress present. For them, it seems more like walking from one room in to another. Maybe they understand something I don't understand.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 10:33AM

My ex had an NDE (and sees dead people) and my best friend has been out of body many times, so I kinda do believe it. I don't see any reason not to believe it.

We're basically avatars here. Our consciousness is a part of us that we experience in a peculiar way as separate beings. That kind of illusion, that such separation exists, is a tricky thing to pull off I think.

I think water is the basic inter dimensional portal that allows avatars to inhabit life. We collect materials and build our bodies, and have our experiences in them. But those bodies aren't us. They come and go.

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Posted by: spiritist ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 12:59PM

I have only had one 'possible' OBE, and it took over 20+ attempts. So, I am not a good candidate to test whether OBEs work.

However, if you have a friend who claims to do it regularly maybe he would take the test suggested by another current thread.

The test is to read something you post somewhere he will not have access to, and report what he reads when he is on an OBE. The other thread is on NDEs but I believe if OBEs are valid and the people not on drugs it should be better proof than NDEs.

As far as your wife, is she a medium and can communicate with the dead? I believe I have communicated with my relatives and 1 friend but I have not had experiences such as mediums where 'spirits' I don't know come up and ask me to help them communicate something to their relatives.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2017 01:03PM by spiritist.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 01:23PM

What if you miss them while you're going to the bathroom?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2017 01:36PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Eastbourne ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 10:45AM

Consider what Robert Lanza, MD has to say about it. Lanza has received numerous awards and other recognition, including TIME Magazine’s 2014 Time 100 list of the "100 Most Influential People in the World".


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Lanza

http://www.robertlanzabiocentrism.com/what-is-it-like-after-you-die/

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Posted by: OutOfMyMind ( )
Date: March 31, 2017 01:24AM

Let us not forget that even Hitler made Time's "Man of the Year"!

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Posted by: MarkJ ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 12:00PM

There is speculation that the universe may exist as a computer simulation. The fact is, we don't have the means to test that speculation. It simply is outside our scope of reality. Existence after physical death is pretty much the same thing. All of our tools are based in a particular context we call reality. To try to look outside that framing context is like trying to measure time with a yardstick.

The model I think of regarding life is that of a radio that seems alive because it receives a broadcast. It is easy to confuse the apparatus for the signal it receives. Just how much of "me" is the hardware of biology and other physical factors? How much is the signal? As long as the radio is functional, the broadcast is made apparent to our senses. But the existence of the signal is not dependent on the existence of the receiver, and long after the radio is broken and discarded, the broadcast goes on.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 01:26PM


Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2017 01:32PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 02:29PM

When somebody can show some evidence of this supposed "signal," it'll be worth looking into.

As nobody has yet managed to show any such evidence, the idea is speculation without support.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 06:25PM

Prior to 1969, perhaps the moon did not exist because nobody had actually touched it. There are reasonable standards of evidence.

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Posted by: Santa ( )
Date: March 31, 2017 12:53AM


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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 31, 2017 01:04AM

"Souls," "Spirits," "Ghosts," "Night Terrors," "OBEs/NDEs" and Other Pseudo-Scientific Silliness.:

In another thread dealing with so-called “near-death experiences,” RfM poster “ab” argues for the physical substance of some mythical thing called the human "sou." In this case, “ab” refers to it as “the materiality of the 'soul,'” and recommends an article for reading:

“The ‘Parabola Magazine’ for January has an article titled ‘The Materiality of the Soul.’ It talks about the argument that has gone on for ages on the seat of the soul--body or elsewhere.

"The argument for the body goes something like: When a part of the brain is damaged then consciousness changes. The argument for ‘located elsewhere’ agrees that damaging a part of the brain does change consciousness but that it is like damaging a radio receiver.

"The body argument and the elsewhere argument both equally well answer the effect of psychoactive drugs and damage to the brain. Only the elsewhere explanation can explain NDE such as reporting seeing things when there is no brain activity that are verified by people present at the time, things that sometimes occur in another room from the body.

“We can only find well less that 10% of the material/energy in the universe that is needed to explain the operation of the university. We humans know so little. ‘The larger the island of knowledge the longer the shore line of mystery.’

"I say that it pays to keep an open mind; otherwise we haven’t really left the mentality of the Mormons.”

(“Re: OT: NPR Interview with Sam Parnia on "After-Death" Experiences,” posted by “ab,” on “Recovery from Mormonism” discussion board, 21 February 2013, at: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,802142,802411#msg-802411)


Um, “ab,” I say that it pays to keep your "open mind" from falling out of your ears if you're willing to stuff anything into your head, no matter how absurd.

Believing in unscientific nonsense IS (to use your phrase), "the mentality of the Mormons." Might want to think about jumping off that train--unless, of course, you think that being “open-minded” means embracing every nutty idea that comes down the track--including the Mormon notion that there really may be a planet Kolob somewhere out there in the Land of Elsewhere.

This is not to say, of course, that you don’t have the equal right to your own ideas.

But not all ideas are created equally.

The idea of some kind of so-called “materialistic soul” floating around out there in “elsewhere” is without meaningful, observable, replictable, testable, empricical or falsifiable evidence.

Other than that, it's great concept--for fairy tales.

The notion of a "material "soul" is a fantasy, a wish, a hope, a tug at the heart that is skipping a beat over the fear of death--these emotions all springing forth as they do from a superstitiously-religious “mentality” that is akin to the belief in the physical existence of Santa’s Workshop at the North Pole (or, if it’s not at the North Pole, then at a yet-to-be-discovered “elsewhere”).

Poster “ab,” however, is right about one thing:

The argument about the so-called “seat of the soul” has, in fact, “gone on for ages." (So, too, did the argument over whether the Earth was round or flat; or whether life has macro-evolved from species to species over billions of years. Both issues have been soundly, scientifically settled, so the “gone-on-for-ages” argument no longer is a relevant position to take).

Wake up and smell the embalming fluid.

In an article entitled, “'Souls' Do Not Exist: Evidence from Science and Philosophy Against Mind-Body Dualism,” Vexen Crabtree observes:

“. . . Our 'minds', 'souls', 'spirit' and consciousness are all physical in nature. Thousands of years of research have shown that our brains comprise and produce our true selves. 'Souls' and 'spirits' do not exist. Our bodies run themselves. We know from cases of brain damage and the effects of psychoactive drugs, that our experiences are caused by physical chemistry acting on our physical neurones in our brains. Our innermost self is our biochemical self.”

He then goes on to, step-by-step, lay out the science behind the imaginary notions of so-called “souls” and “spirits”:
_____


"--The Physical Brain is the Source of Emotions and Personality, Not the 'Soul'

“’If you take a couple of drinks, or smoke some pot, YOU become intoxicated. It is easy to understand how the chemicals in alcohol and cannabis can affect the ticking of your nerve cells. But how can physical reactions in your brain cause the psychological or spiritual YOU to get high? If your mind controls your body how does it do so? When you drive a car, you sit in the driver's seat, you push on the pedals with your feet, and you turn the wheel with your hands.

"If you consider your body to be a biological machine "driven" by your mind, where does the driver ‘sit’? And how does your purely spiritual or psychological ‘mind’ pull the biological strings that make your neurones fire and your muscles move?’

("Understanding Human Behavior," by James V. McConnel, 1986) . . .


“'Do emotions result from us having a "soul," or merely from the laws of nature? Degenerative diseases of the brain that erode personality, and cases where brain damage causes sudden changes in character, are both only possible if character itself is biological.

“’Mood disorders and mind-altering drugs indicate that the sources of feelings are biochemical. Inherited mood disorders and developmental diseases show us that personality is driven by biology. Depression, love, niceness, politeness, aggression, basic drives, abstract thinking, judgement, patience, considered behaviour, instincts, memories, language construction and comprehension, and every emotion, have turned out to have biochemical causes, not spiritual ones, and can all be radically affected by brain damage and brain surgery.

“’If there was a "soul," brain damage could not also damage our emotional feelings, but it does. Electrical stimulation of the brain causes actual desire to arise instantly. If memory, behaviour and emotions are all controlled by the physical brain, what is a soul for? It seems that there isn't anything for a soul to do--it certainly does not control behavior or character, and any free will it exerts is promptly overridden by biological chemistry, hence why so many diseases have an uncontrollable effect on personality. Modern science proves that the idea of souls is misguided. Everything is biological.'

("Emotions Without Souls: How Biochemistry and Neurology Account for Feelings," by Vexen Crabtree, 1999) . . .


“’Virtually all contemporary scientists and philosophers expert on the subject agree that the mind, which comprises consciousness and rational process, is the brain at work. They have rejected the mind-brain dualism of René Descartes, who in “Meditationes” (1642) concluded that 'by the divine power the mind can exist without the body and the body without the mind.’

("Consilience: The Unity of Knowledge,” by E. O. Wilson, 1998)


“Our brainstem controls the impulses that are sent to our body. Our muscles, glands, hormone secretions, skin sensitivity, organ action, heart rate and thousands of other actions are all controlled by our nervous system, which is managed by our brains.

"So, if we damage a part of our brain we can impair our ability to control our bodies. If we damage our medulla, our physical co-ordination can be lost, if we damage our frontal lobes, our personality can be changed. This is because the brain controls the body and emotions. The cause and effect is clear: physical damage to the brain damages our 'soul.'

“Conversely, even if things happen to our bodies that we do not choose (such as the progression of Alzheimer's disease, which causes senility and dementia)2, we are forced to change our behavior and feelings as a result of changes to the structure of our brain during medical procedures.

“Psychosurgery, including lobotomies or leucotomies, became used regularly from the 1930s for severely disrupted patients. Since then highly accurate and specific stereotactic tractotomies, stereotactic limbic leucotomies and the like have been developed, allowing the destruction of very small parts of the brain, normally locating particular pathways between one part and another in order to change specific aspects of behaviour and symptoms.

“For example, a cingulotomy is occasionally used against obsessive and compulsive patients by destroying 2-3 cm of particular white matter. An amygdalotomy destroys the brain's neural connection between the amygdala and the hypothalamus and is normally used on patients who suffer from episodes of unstoppable violence and terror.3. What all this shows is that the physical structures and chemistry of the brain can control large portions of our chosen behaviours, experiences and feelings.

“If our medulla is damaged, or our brainstem, why can't the 'soul' control our body? If we have a serotonin imbalance as the result of disease, why does our 'soul' suffer depression and mood disorders? It seems that the 'soul' is completely physical.

“’A small amount of damage . . . might even cause rather dramatic changes in your personality. Why? Because your brain is the seat of your self-awareness, the locus of your intelligence, your compassion, and your creativity. All of your mental activities--your thoughts, emotions and feelings--and all your bodily processes are affected by the functioning of your brain.’

("Understanding Human Behavior" by James V. McConnel, 1986)


“If we suffer brain damage, take drugs, or if we are injected unknowingly with hormones by an experimenter, our feelings can be altered. This must mean that a 'soul' is a reader of our experiences, but not a cause of them. . . .

“It seems that whatever role our 'soul' has, it is not directly linked to the control of our physical bodies, and it is not directly a cause of our experiences.

“In addition to physical feelings, our emotions are deeply tied to biochemistry and neurology. Neurological causes (especially in the limbic system) precede emotions, and that cognitive events precede conscious awareness of feelings and emotions. This means that our qualia and fundamental experience of life results from our brain chemistry.
_____


“The Physics of the 'Soul'

“’Ghost, n. The outward and visible sign of an inward fear.’ There is one insuperable obstacle to a belief in ghosts. A ghost never comes back naked: he appears either in a winding-sheet or 'in his habit as he lived.' To believe in him, then, is to believe that not only have the dead the power to make themselves visible after there is nothing left of them, but that the same power inheres in textile fabrics. Supposing the products of the loom to have this ability, what object would they have in exercising it? And why does not the apparition of a suit of clothes sometimes walk abroad without a ghost in it? These be riddles of significance.’

("The Devil's Dictionary" by Ambrose Bierce, 1967)


“Eyes

“Our physical eyes operate by absorbing certain frequencies of the electromagnetic spectrum. Our retinas contain special wavelength-sensitive chemicals that absorb photons of light precisely due to their physical properties. Some problems emerge when we consider what eyesight disembodied souls or ghosts might have:

“Without eyesockets, eyelids, a skull and a brain to get in the way of light arriving at the eyes, a 'spirit' is free to view a full 360 degrees around itself, unhindered. Yet I have never heard of such a report from ghost-hunters and mediums and the like.

"Without light-absorbing chemicals, immaterial 'spirits' cannot absorb light. It is ridiculous to think that they mystically 'see' the exact same frequency ranges as happens to be absorbed by certain photosensitive chemicals; it therefore stands that there is nothing limiting 'spirits' from 'seeing' all frequency ranges. This means they can see infrared, ultraviolet, radiowaves, etc. But why is it that 'spirits'--and those who claim to speak on behalf of them--never report anything physical from the vicinity that can't be seen with normal eyes?

“Any absorption of light is detectable by scientific instruments --light is, after all, composed of lots of photons which are well-understood by science. To see, your eyes must absorb photos of light. In addition, if 'spirits' can see, their interaction with result in detectable quantum and/or normal physical side-effects of observation. But to have these effects, 'spirits' must have physical components. To observe, you must become detectable, but many a scientific study have found no such evidence of 'spiritual' eyesight.

“These are important questions which all highlight contradictions with the very idea of 'spirits' being able to see in the real world, and also highlights the fact that all stories told about 'spirits,' 'ghosts' and 'souls' have merely reflected the state of knowledge of the storyteller.

“If the 'soul' was able to interact physically with the body, or to view the world, it must have some physical structure in order to be an observer.

"Yet, despite attempts, no evidence for the 'mass' of 'soul' has been found. An object cannot be mass-free and physical; it cannot react with energy without having energy. In order to react with the brain it must have mass, but in order to be invisible it must be mass free. In order to see it requires photoreceptors and energy measuring devices which need to interact with the physical world. All such interactions are detectable. If 'souls' interact with the world at all, they would be scientifically detectable in the world, but, scientific studies published properly in peer-reviewed journals have found no signs of 'souls' or 'spirits.'
_____


“Evolution and Development of the Self

“There is another major problem with the idea that a 'soul' is required for some parts of the brain to function--the fact that all the individual parts of the brain obey normal biological and chemical rules. Animals and such evolved through a long process of gradual complexification.

"At no point in the history of the evolution of the nervous system has a 'soul' became necessary. The 'soul' itself must have evolved with us, within us. Growing with us from birth. It is as if our 'soul' is our brains, and nothing more. Or in other words, the evolution of our brain shows us that we have merely mistaken some of the emergent properties of consciousness to be a 'soul,' somehow different from the brain itself.

"Now we know enough neurology to say for sure that this isn't true. In short there is only one sensible conclusion: 'Souls' do not exist. This lesson from natural biology came too late for some, and the belief in special 'souls' just for human beings has pervaded human religions up to the present day.
_____


“Consciousness and Complexity

“The most basic consensus amongst those who study consciousness is that it is a result of the complexity of our brains:

“’The complexity of our nervous system which makes our consciousness possible . . . . [I]t is less obvious whether consciousness was itself adaptive or simply a side-effect or byproduct of a complex nervous system.’

(“Psychology: The Science of Mind and Behaviour," by Richard Gross, 1996)


“EEG scans have told us much--including the point during gestation where consciousness first looks like it could have arisen:

“’But when does the magical journey of consciousness begin? Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components, nerve cells. Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation. Roughly two months later synchrony of the electroencephalographic (EEG) rhythm across both cortical hemispheres signals the onset of global neuronal integration. Thus, many of the circuit elements necessary for consciousness are in place by the third trimester.’

(Prof. Christof Koch, 2009)


“But as researchers looked deeper, they found a system so complex that it defied centralisation. E. O. Wilson summarizes brilliantly:

“’Consciousness consists of the parallel processing of vast numbers of such coding networks. Many are linked by the synchronized firing of the nerve cells at 40 cycles per second, allowing the simultaneous internal mapping of multiple sensory impressions. . . . Who or what within the brain monitors all this activity? No one. . . . There is not even a Cartesian theater, to use Daniel Dennett's dismissive phrase, no single locus of the brain where the scenarios are played out in coherent form.

"'Instead, there are interlacing patterns of neural activity within and among particular sites throughout the forebrain, from cerebral cortex to other specialized centers of cognition such as the thalamus, amygdala, and hippocampus. There is no single stream of consciousness in which all information is brought together by an executive ego. There are instead multiple streams of activity, some of which contribute momentarily to conscious thought and then phase out. Consciousness is the massive coupled aggregates of such participating circuits.’

("Consilience: The Unity of Knowledge," by E. O. Wilson, 1998)


"E.O. Wilson also repeats the little expression of the biologist S. J. Singer to sum it all up11 ‘I link, therefore I am.’

“This may all highlight how consciousness is possible, but why did it arise? The psychologist Richard Gross above has already said that it is hard to tell if consciousness is merely a by-product of complexity, or if it specifically evolved. In "Kinds of Minds" by Daniel C. Dennett (1996) the author airs a respectable theory: That consciousness arose as a method for trying to manipulate other individuals' reactions to our actions, therefore 'mapping' their consciousness, therefore leaving space to analyze own reactions too. Combine with words and language and we have a modern, Human, intelligent conscious lifeform being where consciousness awareness is selected for on the basis of the benefits of increased social skills.
_____


“Particular Phenomenon . . .

“Ghosts

“Ghost stories have a tendency to become true. The suggestibility of many people means that they actively seek out confirming experiences for even the most improbable stories that they've heard. Colin Wilson's television series in the 1970s, 'Leap in the Dark,' traced the history of a haunting:


“’A writer, Frank Smythe, deliberately put round an entirely fictitious story that a particular place was haunted by a particular ghost. No one, apart from Smythe and his team, knew that the story was fictitious. A while later the researchers were flooded with reports from people claiming to have sighted the ghost in question. In this case, then, we have sightings of a ghost which arose simply on the basis of the public suggestion that there was a ghost to be seen.’

("The Origins of Psychic Phenomena: Poltergeists, Incubi, Succubi, and the Unconscious Mind," by
Stan Gooch, 2007)


"The Recently Dead

"In many folk tales, Westerners tell of seeing the 'ghosts' of the recently departed. Scientific investigation has always found that such cases are either explainable in terms of the subject actually knowing more than they knew they knew (or let on), or are mistaken.

"Experiments where people write down such predictions before finding out confirming evidence (such as receiving a phone call informing them a relative is dead), results in a very poor record of accuracy, with the only slight success rate attributable to the fact that people tend to predict the deaths of the elderly or unwell.

"The investigative psychologist Stan Gooch, who does believe that the human brain is capable of supernatural intelligence, argues that all such encounters with the dead are actually subjective methods of interpreting information, but which do not actually have a basis in physical reality:

“’In all these cases we do not require the discarnate spirit hypothesis at all. It is totally irrelevant. . . . As emphasized, the person is not always dead when the vision occurs). Is it not enough to say that in all cases of death that having received kind of telepathic impulse if events, the unconscious mind then generates some kind of symbolic fantasy - a vision, a dream, a premonition--by which means it presents the received information to consciousness?

"'That view gains enormously also from the fact that Australian aborigines are very good at sensing the death of a distant companion. But they do not see a "ghostly" vision of that person, as westerners often do. Instead they see a vision of that person's totem animal running about the camp. Once again, 'we see what we expect to see' in terms of our cultural (and in this case religious) upbringing. The totem animal is the best choice, and the obvious choice, for the Aborigine unconscious mind to make in presenting its information to consciousness.’

("The Origins of Psychic Phenomena: Poltergeists, Incubi, Succubi, and the Unconscious Mind," by
Stan Gooch, 2007)


“'Out of Body Experiences'

“'Out-of-body experiences' were once poorly studied scientifically because of their purely psychological nature, but recent technological developments have allowed neurologists to study these types of states of consciousness. Scientists have been able to recreate situations in which "out of body experiences" occur in wide-awake individuals.

“’Two sets of studies published independently in the same issue of the journal “Science” demonstrate how the illusion of a bodily self outside one's own body can be stimulated in the laboratory. The studies forge ways to better understand both "out-of-body" and "near-death experiences." "The research provides a physical explanation for the phenomenon usually ascribed to other-worldly influences," Peter Bruger, a neurologist at University Hospital in Zurich who was not involved in the experiment, told science journalist Sandra Blakesee in her report on these experiments in “The New York Times” (August 24).'

(Kendrick Frazier in “Skeptical Inquirer,” 2007)


“’Olaf Blanke and his colleagues report that they are able to bring about so-called "out-of-body experiences (OBE)," where a person's consciousness seems to become detached from the body, by electrical stimulation of a specific region in the brain. I have discussed "OBE" experiments in two books and have concluded that they provide no evidence for anything happening outside of the physical processes of the brain.’

("God, the Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist,” by Prof. Victor J. Stenger (2007)


“The two books by Prof. Victor Stenger on this subject, plus relevant page numbers, are: 1. ‘Physics and Psychics: The Search for a World beyond the Senses’ (Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books, 1990) p. 111; [and] 2. ‘Has Science Found God? The Latest Results in the Search for Purpose in the Universe’ (Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books, 2003) pp. 290-99.


“Extensive research into cases of 'OBEs' by skeptical scientists have shown that in all cases, details of the event have not produced anything that could not have been known by the patient. Experiments have included hidden symbols placed high up in rooms so that only through an 'OBE' or other supernatural process could someone know what the symbol was. Simple tests like this have always demonstrated that what is 'seen' during an 'OBE' is only ever what the patient already knew was there. This, combined with our neurological understanding of 'OBEs' is conclusive proof that 'OBEs' are purely psychological, with, as Prof. Stenger says, ‘no evidence for anything happening outside of the physical processes of the brain.’

“Night Terrors: 'Demonic' Attacks . . .

“The following phenomenon has its basis in the biochemistry of the brain, involving the limbic system, cerebellum and duodenum and the way that they are suppressed during sleep. An incorrect balance of neurone-controlling chemicals during sleep makes some people more susceptible to night terrors than others. They occur in the early night and ‘experiences of entrapment, of being choked or attacked, often with shrieking, sitting-up, or sleep-walking, and tremendous acceleration of the heart. [They become] more frequent when there is greater daytime anxiety; they are frequent among wartime battle evacuees and night terrors are commonly experienced by children aged 10-14.’

“The human biologist McConnel describes a likely Night Terror:

“’You begin to senses--deep down inside you--that something has gone very wrong. Slowly, almost dimly, you regain enough consciousness to realize that you are suffocating, that some heavy weight is lying on your chest and crushing your lungs. Suddenly you realize your breathing has almost stopped, and you are dying for air. Terrified, you scream! At once, you seem to awaken. There is this thing hovering over you, crushing the very life out of your lungs. You shout at the thing, but it won't leave you alone.

“’Despite a strange feeling of paralysis, you start to resist. Your pulse begins to race, your breathing becomes rapid, and you push futilely at the thing that is choking you to death. Your legs tremble, then begin to thrash about under the covers. You sweep the bedclothes aside, stumble to your feet, and flee into the darkness. You run clumsily through the house, trying to get from the thing.

“’And then, all at once, you find yourself in your living room. The lights come on, the thing instantly retreats to the shadows of your mind, and you are awake. You are safe now, but you are intensely wrought up and disturbed. You shake your head, wondering what has happened to you. You can remember that you were fleeing from the thing that was crushing you. But you have forgotten your scream and talking in your sleep. The thing dream is a classic example of a night terror.’

("Understanding Human Behavior," by James V. McConnel, 1986)


“It is clear to see how such physiological events can be interpreted supernaturally by its victims!

“’Before the physiological causes of these experiences was known, night terrors were interpreted as being the attacks of evil spirits. Others have experienced it as an alien abduction, an attempted possession or as the evil magic of medieval witches, along with all manner of other supernatural and paranormal explanations that have arose historically.’

(“Nightmares and Night Terrors,” by Vexen Crabtree, 2005)
_____


"Religion

“A 'Life Force:' The Creation of a Pre-Scientific Age

“The whole idea of a mystical and 'spiritual life-force' embodied a lack of knowledge of neurology and cognitive psychology; the neurology of the self was simply beyond any possible investigation. Many ancient languages and cultures conflated the act of breathing with life:

“’The association of 'spirit' with air is embedded in a number of ancient languages: the Hebrew ruah ("wind" or "breath") and nefesh, also associated with breathing; the Greek psychein ("to breathe"), which is related to the word psyche for "soul"; and the Latin words anima ("air," "breath," or "life") and spiritus, which also refers to breathing. The "soul" was seen as departing the body in the dying last breath. . . . In the Old Testament, the "soul" is life itself, breathing into the body by God.’

(“God, the Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist,” by Prof. Victor J. Stenger, 2007)


“Now we know that us humans evolved, along with all other animals, developing a complex nervous system and brain along the way. This led slowly, over time, to conscious life and emotional awareness. As we noted in the section on evolution, there was no point in the evolution of our minds that an independent 'soul' became a necessary addition.

"Yet many religionists such as Jews, Christians and Muslims have gone to great lengths to argue that only human beings have 'souls' and that animals and plants do not. This is based on the account of creation where God 'breathes life' into Adam and Eve but not into the various animals. This is despite the fact that the scriptures of Judaism, Christianity and Islam do not endorse the idea of 'souls.'

"Confused? The leaders of the main faiths have taken up some pretty contradictory positions on the existence of the 'soul': it has been endorsed, denied, preached for, preached against, declared heretical and declared essential.

“In his classic work, ‘The Illusion of Immortality,’ philosopher Corliss Lamont surveyed all the aspects of the subject of immortality, from theological and philosophical to scientific and social. He points out that the exact nature of the immortality that is preached in Christianity, as well as in other religions, is not at all clear, with many different doctrines being presented over the ages.’ . . .

“'Souls' are a Pagan Concept

"The concept of a 'soul' exists in various pagan religions well before they existed in the monotheistic, traditional ‘world religions.’ Mainstream religions inherited local pagan concepts of 'souls' from the local, uneducated masses. For example, early Christianity inherited the beliefs of the Roman, pagan masses on 'souls.' Bertrand Russell (1935) outlines briefly the source of the Christian idea of the soul:

“’The "soul," as it first appeared in Greek thought, had a religious though not a Christian origin. It seems, so far as Greece was concerned, to have originated in the teachings of the Pythagoreans, who believed in transmigration. [ . . .They] influenced Plato, and Plato influenced the Father of the Church; in this way the doctrine of the soul as something distinct from the body became part of Christian doctrine. . . . It appears from Plato that doctrines very similar to those subsequently taught by Christianity were widely held in his day by the general public rather than by philosophers.’

("Religion and Science" by Bertrand Russell, 1935)


“In all ancient religions, the 'soul' was the surviving aspect of the self that afforded reincarnation (or ‘transmigration’); in Hinduism and Buddhism it was the source of life that passed on from one body to be reborn in another, in the samsaric cycle of life; with further incarnations being higher up or lower down in the scale according to a measure of the good (or fruitful) and bad (or deluded) actions performed during life. This concept easily translates into the Christian concept of 'sin' and the idea of the 'soul' thus passed from the pagan-influenced advanced Jews of the first century, and the Roman pagans themselves, into Christianity.
_____


“The Religion of Spiritualism

"Institutionalized Spiritual Populism

“Religion In Britain: The 2001 census revealed there are over 32 thousand Spiritualists in the UK

“Despite all the logical and physical problems with supposing that 'spirits' can interact with the world, as examined above, Spiritualism, a modern religion that is based on such interaction, arose in the 19th century. It involves 'mediums' receiving messages from the dead, during psychodramas called séances.

“'Spiritualism includes a variety of differing networks and groups, some of which hold some specifically Christian beliefs and others of which are almost totally devoid of any religious dogma at all. They all, however, share on central concept - communication with the "spirit realm" through gifted or psychic individuals. Spiritualists always speak of the 'departed' rather than the 'dead./

("Encyclopedia of New Religions," by Christopher Partridge, 2004)


“The modern movement began in Hydesville, New York, . . . in 1848, where the Fox family lived. John Fox's two daughters, Maggie and Katherine, along with a few early converts and colleagues who accompanied them on tours around the country, all proceeded to demonstrate that they communicate with the dead. It presumed a general Christian outlook on life and retained a Christian morality. It has become more than a sect of Christianity, and should be considered a religion in its own right due to the development of its authoritative written works that are no longer Christian. It remains a very loose and secular spread of practitioners, but nonetheless Spiritualist Churches hold services several times a week, some of them including Christian Holy Communion.

“It has become the public face of the New Age: 'channellers' and 'mediums' have appeared on a long string of television dramas and in books, so much so, that portions of the population think that there must be underlying truth (if not evidence) to it.

“Issues and Problems: Its Original Proponents Admit Making It Up

“The religion [of spiritualism] has been mired in problems. Not only the apparent fact that souls, spirits and ghosts don't exist, but that mediums' communications are fraudulent. The information gleaned from the dead is the same tone and quality as that obtained through cold-reading, which is the method used by psychics such as tarot-card readers. It is a mixture between obscurantism, astute observations and a Machiavellian understanding of what types of things people want to hear and will believe.

"There have been several court cases resulting in criminal convictions for fraud against Spiritualists, which is probably the reason that some of their websites state that they are 'for entertainment purposes only.' Not only are there problems with the soul-based theories of the religion and the general substance of séances, but the two Fox daughters who founded the movement admitted later during their lifetimes that it had been a hoax:

“’Four decades after spiritualism began, sisters Margaret Fox Kane and Katherine Fox Jencken confessed it had all been a trick. On Sunday, October 21, 1988, the sisters appeared at the Academy of Music in New York City. . . . She explained how she had produced the rapping noises [ . . . and] demonstrated the effect for the audience. . . . Margaret then went on to state:
"I think that it is about time that the truth of this miserable subject 'Spiritualism' should be brought out. It is now widespread all over the world, . . . I was the first in the field and I have the right to expose it. . . . Mother . . . could not understand it and did not suspect us of being capable of a trick because we were so young.’

“’ . . . Margaret also stated that Leah knew the spirit rappings were fake, and that when she traveled with the girls (on their first nationwide tour) it was she who signaled the answers to various questions. (She probably chatted with sitters before the séance to obtain information; when that did not produce the requisite facts, the "spirits" no doubt spoke in vague generalizations that are the mainstay of spiritualistic charlatans). Margaret repeated her exposé in other cities close to New York.

“’Today, spiritualists characterize Margaret's exposé as bogus, attributing it to her need for money or the desire for revenge against her rivals or both. However, not only were her admissions fully corroborated by her sister, but she demonstrated to the audience that she could produce the mysterious raps just as she said.’

(Joe Nickell in “Skeptical Inquirer, “ 2008)


“Extensive investigations at the original site in Hydesville where the Fox daughters invented the first Spiritualist communications, have also shown every aspect of the story to be invented falsehoods; with details about bodies, persons and fake walls all to be incorrect and with evidence of attempted trickery.

“The [Spiritualist] religion's take on 'spirits' and 'the spirit world' remain a mixture of pop culture assertions and assumptions, with very little rationality or coherency. There seems to be no reason why, if 'spirits' can communicate by banging things, moving tables, talking through people's mouths, that they can't instead simply write clear letters with pens on paper. Also, the abysmal failure rate of psychic 'help' in real police cases, the cold-reading associations, the fraud cases and the negative results of scientific investigations into Spiritualist claims all point to fundamental flaws in the religion/movement.”

(“Souls Do Not Exist: Evidence,” by Vexen Crabtree, 14 December 2007, at: http://www.humantruth.info/souls.html)
_____


As to the non-substantive silliness of the “materialstic soul," Massimo Pigliucci squarely addresses it in his article, “Does the 'Soul' Weigh 21 Grams?”

He writes:

"This myth, reinforced by a 2003 fictional movie by the otherwise rather cryptic title 121 grams' is occasionally thrown to non-supernaturalists as one more ‘proof’ that we are fools, by our own standards of reason and evidence.

"It turns out that the only source for the 21-gram figure is a discredited study carried out in 1907 by a Haverhill, Massachusetts, doctor by the name of Duncan MacDougall. He managed (apparently overcoming any ethical qualms over human experimentation) to put six dying people on a bed equipped with sensitive springs, and claimed to have observed a sudden loss of weight--about 3/4 of an ounce--at the exact moment of their death. Having reasoned that such loss could not be explained by bowel movements or evaporation, he concluded he must have measured the weight of the soul.

"A follow-up experiment also showed that dogs (which were healthy, so they were probably poisoned on purpose by the good doctor) don't seem to suffer the same sort of loss, therefore they don't have souls (sorry, you canine lovers).

"This is an excellent example of where pseudoscience and belief go wrong, on a variety of levels. Let us start with MacDougall's claim itself: it turns out that his data were decidedly unreliable by any decent scientific standard. Not only was the experiment never repeated (by either MaDougall or anyone else), but his own notes (published in 'American Medicine' in March 1907) show that of the six data points, two had to be discarded as 'of no value'; two recorded a weight drop, followed by additional losses later on (was the soul leaving bit by bit?); one showed a reversal of the loss, then another loss (the soul couldn't make up its mind, leaving, re-entering, then leaving for good); and only one case actually constitutes the basis of the legendary estimate of ¾ of an ounce. With data like these, it's a miracle the paper got published in the first place.

"Second, as was pointed out immediately by Dr. Augustus P. Clarke in a rebuttal also published in 'American Medicine,' MacDougall failed to consider another obvious hypothesis: that the weight loss (assuming it was real) was due to evaporation caused by the sudden rise in body temperature that occurs when the blood circulation stops and the blood can no longer be air-cooled by the lungs. This also elegantly explains why the dogs showed no weight loss: as is well known, they cool themselves by panting, not sweating like humans do.

"Third, MacDougall's allegedly inescapable conclusion ('How other shall we explain it?') did not derive from any theory of the 'soul,' but was simply arrived at by excluding a small number of other possibilities. In other words, the 'soul explanation' won by default, without having to go through the onerous process of positive confirmation. This is yet another version of the 'god-of-the-gaps' argument so in vogue among the faithful, and that constitutes the backbone--such as it is--of Intelligent Design 'theory.'

"But perhaps most damning of all is the very idea that the 'soul' has weight. Whatever it is, the 'soul' since Plato's time has been understood as immaterial, i.e. without mass and, therefore, weightless. Obviously, this in turn raises all the classic problems of dualism: how can something immaterial interact with a material world? How can 'ghosts' walk through walls and yet 'see' things or make noises? How can the mind direct our actions--that famous conundrum that stymied Descartes--if it is an incorporeal 'substance' (itself an oxymoron)?

"Even more basically: why are the so-called 'faithful' perennially in search of scientific confirmation of their inanities? Shouldn't faith be enough? Indeed, isn't the very idea of faith as a value that one should hold fast to it, not only despite the lack of evidence, but even in the face of contrary evidence?

"C'mon guys, I'm beginning to think that somewhere in your subconscious you have this terrifying suspicion that you really believe in nonsense, and are therefore desperate to get science to provide some evidence, however flimsy, that you are right after all. Why not shed the superstition altogether and see what happens? It's a nice, comprehensible world out here."

("Does the Soul Weigh 21 Grams?," by Massimo Pigliucci, "Rationally Speaking," 20 March 2007, at: http://rationallyspeaking.blogspot.com/2007/03/does-soul-weigh-21-grams.html
_____


--Finally, in her article, “Why I Don’t Believe in the 'Soul,'” Greta Christina lays out the rational reasons for answering “no” to the question, “Got Soul?”:

“Today . . . I want to talk, not about why I don’t believe in God or gods, not about why some particular religion’s belief in God is mistaken or contradictory … but about why I don’t believe in the 'soul.'

“A lot of people who don’t believe in God per se still believe in some sort of 'soul,' some sort of metaphysical substance or animating 'spirit' that inhabits people and other living things. And I think this is mistaken. I think it’s every bit as mistaken an idea as God is.

“And today, I want to talk about why. I want to talk about why everything that we think of as the 'soul'--consciousness, identity, character, free will--is much more likely to be a product of our brains and our bodies and the physical world, than a metaphysical substance inhabiting our bodies but somehow separate and distinct from it.

“Much, much, much more likely.

“Here’s the thing. I know that there are enormous unanswered questions about how the mind works, and indeed what it is. The questions of what consciousness is, how it’s created, how it works… these are questions that we don’t really have answers to yet. Ditto identity and selfhood. And we’re not sure that free will even exists, much less how it works. The science of neuropsychology, and the scientific understanding of consciousness, are very much in their infancy. In fact, I would argue that ‘What is consciousness?’ is one of the great scientific questions of our time.

"But infant science or not, there are a few things we know about consciousness, identity, character, the ability to make decisions, etc.

”And one of the things we know is that physical changes to the brain can and do result in changes to the consciousness, the identity, the character, the ability to make decisions. Changes caused by injury, illness, drugs and medicines, sleep deprivation, food deprivation, oxygen deprivation, etc., can and do result in changes to everything we think of as the 'soul.' Even some very small changes to the brain--small doses of medicine or drugs, injuries or interventions to just a small area of the brain--can result in some very drastic changes, indeed.

“In some cases, they can do so to the point of rendering a person’s personality completely unrecognizable. Physical changes to the brain can make people unable to care about their own families. They can make people unable to make decisions. They can make smart people stupid, anxious people calm, happy people irritable, crazy people less crazy. They can render everything we know about a person, everything that makes that person who they are, totally null and void. Read Oliver Sacks, read V. S. Ramachandran, read any modern neurologist or neuropsychologist, and you’ll see what I’m talking about. It’s f***ing freaky, actually, just how fragile are mind and self, consciousness and character.

”And, of course, we have the rather drastic change to consciousness and character and coherent identity and the ability to make decisions, known as ‘death.’

“Simply cut off oxygen or blood flow to the brain for a relatively short time, and a person’s consciousness and self and ability to take action in the world will not just change but vanish--completely, and permanently. (Attempts to find solid evidence supporting life after death have been utterly unsuccessful: reports of it abound, but when carefully examined using good scientific methodology, they fall apart like a house of cards).

“Now.

“Think about any other phenomenon in the world. When Physical Action A results in Effect B, we think of that as a physical phenomenon. Apply heat to water, and get steam; apply force to an object, and get motion; apply electricity to metals in certain ways, and get magnetism; apply vinegar to baking soda, and get gobs of rapidly expanding foam. These are physical events, every one. Only the most hard-line religious believers insist that God’s hand is in every physical action that takes place everywhere in the universe. Most rational, reasonably- well- educated people understand that the physical world is governed by laws of physical cause and effect.

“So.

“We have a phenomenon, or a set of phenomena: consciousness, selfhood and identity, character and personality, the ability to make decisions. There’s a lot we don’t know about these phenomena yet, but one of the few things we do know is that physical changes to a person’s brain will result in changes to the phenomena. Small changes or drastic ones, depending on the stimulus.

“Doesn’t that look like a biological process?

“Doesn’t that look like phenomena that are governed by physical cause and effect?

“Even though we don’t fully understand them, don’t these phenomena have all the hallmarks of a physical event, or function, or relationship?

“I mean, even when we didn’t know what gravity was (which, if I understand the science correctly, we still don’t fully grasp), once we got the idea of it we understood that it was a physical phenomenon. Once we got the idea and began studying and observing it, we didn’t try to explain it by invisible spirit- demons living inside objects and pulling towards each other. We could see that it was physical objects having an effect on other physical objects, and we understood that it was a physical force.

"In other words, we don’t need to completely understand a phenomenon to recognize it as a physical event, governed by laws of physical cause and effect.

“And when you start looking at the ‘soul,’ you realize that that’s exactly what it looks like, too.

“Everything that we call the ‘soul’ is affected by physical events in our bodies, and those events alter it, shape it, and eventually destroy it. Apply opiates to the brain, and get euphoria; apply a stroke to the brain, and get impairment in the ability to understand language; apply vigorous physical exercise to the brain, and get stress reduction; apply repeated blows to the brain, and get loss of memory and intelligence. Apply anesthesia to the brain, and create the temporary obliteration of consciousness. Remove blood or oxygen to the brain, and create its permanent obliteration. It looks exactly like a physical, biological process: a poorly understood one as of yet, but a biological process nonetheless.

“And there’s no reason to believe otherwise. The theory that the 'soul' is some sort of metaphysical entity or substance has no solid evidence to back it up. Just as with life after death, attempts to find evidence for a 'spirit'
or 'soul' have consistently withered and died when exposed to the searing light and heat of the scientific method. And there’s never been any good explanation of how, exactly, the metaphysical 'soul' is supposed to influence and interact with the brain and the body.

“Not to mention why it can be so drastically altered when the body alters.

"Is there energy inhabiting our brain and our body? Yes, of course. There are electrical impulses running through our brains and up and down our nerves; there are chemical signals being transmitted through our muscles and guts; we consume food energy and radiate heat.

“But is there some sort of non-physical energy inhabiting our brain and our body? Is there some sort of non-physical energy generating our consciousness, our personality, our coherent identity, our ability to make decisions?

“There’s no reason to think so.

“We have an enormous amount yet to learn about self and will, consciousness and character. But everything we know about them points to them being physical phenomena. And the more we learn about them, the more true that becomes.”

(“Why I Don’t Believe in the Soul,” by Greta Christina,, on “Freethought Blogs,” 8 July 2008, at: http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2008/07/21/why-i-dont-believe-in-the-soul/)

******


Soul there. Wrap it up and stick a fork in it.

Wait. You can't stick forks into souls--even though they're made out of material. Chew on that for awhile.

No, wait. You can't chew on souls. Ok, then, it's not necessary for your salvation.

No, wait one more time. There is no salvation.

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Posted by: schweizerkind ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 01:10PM

The evidence strongly suggests that consciousness is a function of certain brain structures. I go with what the science indicates. So it would be nice to think that some residual consciousness survives brain death,

But I'm-a-strong-skeptic-ly yrs,

S

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 01:31PM


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Posted by: fossilman ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 02:32PM

No. We are all butt dust in the wind.

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 02:35PM

Butt dust in the wind? That sounds, gross.

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Posted by: lurking in ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 02:39PM

Kansass ?

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Posted by: fossilman ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 02:51PM

Kansas/Bible mashup.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 02:44PM

I'm not sure of the existence of consciousness before death. It looks a lot like an internal case of confirmation bias.

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Posted by: RebelJamesDean ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 05:07PM

Any thoughts on consciousness before birth? I am not talking about the Mormon doctrine of preexistence.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 05:12PM

I've known three people in this lifetime that I had strong deja vu impressions we'd known each other in previous lifetimes.

One of them I even dreamt about the night before we met for real - he spoke in my dream, and I saw details of what he was wearing, hair color, etc.

The next night there he was: on the board of volunteers I'd recently joined, to announce the guest speaker that evening. His voice was the same deep (and distinct) voice that spoke to me in my dream.

All three of them are deceased, and have been for quite some time. I believe we are destined to meet again in another lifetime, perhaps more. Not that I was ever a student of reincarnation. But the man I dreamt of before meeting in real life said to me in the dream that we were on our third honeymoon. We were standing in an airport tarmac waiting to board our plane when he spoke those words.

It took me a few years for that realization to sink in that "third honeymoon" signaled third lifetime we knew each other and were brought together as man and wife.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2017 05:14PM by Amyjo.

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Posted by: perky ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 05:35PM

I think once you are dead, you are gone. However, and yes I know about confusion of correlation and causation, the book referenced below contains lots more than just coincidental observations about consciousness and NDEs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Fenwick_(neuropsychologist)

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Dying-Peter-Fenwick/dp/0826499236

Also, some people claim we know what causes consciouness, but from what I have seen there is still a lot of uncertainty and speculation without much data. I fail to see how you can completely discount NDEs etc., without knowing what causes consciousness.

Another also, the Newtonian view that everything can be explained by atomic behavior has been seriously called into question. For example, reductionist thinking can explain the orbits of planets and electrons, but it can't explain the biosphere.

Try this: https://www.edge.org/conversation/stuart_a_kauffman-the-adjacent-possible

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Posted by: boilerluv ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 06:40PM

I'm a pretty hard-core atheist as regards the God of the Bible, and his "son" Jesus. I do NOT believe in "heaven" or in "hell."

Having said that, I do actually believe that there may well be something beyond this physical life. I have nothing on which to base that except for anecdotes that are meaningless because they prove nothing to anyone except those who experienced them. #1) My (now deceased)mother told me that when she was a little girl (would have been in maybe 1917 or thereabouts), her grandmother woke her in the night and told her that she loved her very much and wanted her to know that she (the grandmother) was going away for a long time but she would see her again one day, and that my mother was not to worry about her. Then she "kissed me and faded away" said my mother. She said she went back to sleep and in the morning reported the visit, and was told she was probably dreaming. Until the telegram came (they had no phone--most people didn't) which said that this grandmother had passed away the night before. #2) I had a horrible dream one night in which I saw my dad, who was a state police officer, heading home after a night shift and coming down the highway hill that was the quickest way home, hitting a patch of ice at the bottom of the hill on the Wabash River bridge, wrecking his police car and not being able to get out, burning to death. I woke up in a cold sweat, and sat up in bed and could smell burning flesh and hear my dad screaming, even though I was wide awake. I got out of bed, pulled on my boots and coat and grabbed some change and waded as quickly as possible through the deep snow to the phone booth near the entrance to the trailer park where I lived with my (new, first) husband. I was 18. I called home and my mother answered on the first ring. I said, "Is Daddy all right? Is he home or at work? Is he okay?" whereupon my mother said, "Did you just dream that he was coming down the bypass hill and hit the bridge at the bottom and burned to death in the car?" The hair on the back of my neck was standing up as I said, "Oh my god, how do you know that?" and she said, "Because I just had a call from (name of a friend and former neighbor of ours from when I was a kid) who asked me the same thing and related that dream." I was terrified, and said, "You have to call Daddy at work and tell him to come home through town and NOT on the bypass! Not on the bypass tonight or any time there has been snow or ice!" She did. He thought it was silly, but he promised he would, and he did, and nothing ever happened like that, and he died at 85, of dementia, in a nursing home, with me holding his hand.

There were two other "experiences" which I won't relate because of length, and people will either believe them or not. However, I will just mention that when my daughter was very small, like age 2, she occasionally mentioned a former life in which she had been a boy named "Donnie." That, coupled with the fact that she was able to read at an adult level at age 3, made me a believer in reincarnation.

How? Why? Who? When? For everyone or only some? If so, who and why? I don't know and I don't think it matters. As I have said in other posts, I have been diagnosed with lung cancer and don't expect to see more than maybe one more birthday--possibly two. When I'm gone, I have no clue where I will be (well, burned to ashes and in an urn, but that's just my body). I may be in "nothingness." That's fine. You don't "miss" life or people in nothingness. I may end up in the Universe's University, being lectured by someone a lot smarter than I am. I may end up reincarnated. Who knows? I don't have a clue, but I do believe I will be aware. I could be wrong, but oh well--like I said, if it's "nothingness," there are worse things. :)

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 08:01PM

Thanks for sharing. Very profound experiences, all.

That dream was strange, that two of you had it at the same time. I've read that's called "astral physics," when our spirit guides or guardian angels sends us messages as they can see into the future, where we cannot.

Sending well wishes, hugs, and good thoughts your way as you convalesce through whatever you're going through.

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Posted by: spiritist ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 07:52PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2017 07:54PM by spiritist.

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Posted by: Happy_Heretic ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 08:17PM

and the result of in in-tact brain. Sine neither is possible post mortem, then consciousness (of course) ends when the nervous system's interactions with a social environment does.

Only those appealing to ignorance believe in consciousness after death. Since an appeal to ignorance is clearly a rational fallacy, then those who believe do so without rational grounds,and are full of shit.

HH =)

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Posted by: spiritist ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 08:23PM

Finally, and 'expert on shit'.

Where have you been all our lives??????? Are you sure you are not Tom Monson?????

Sure sound like him!!!!!

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 08:55PM

I believe there is life after life.

Have had numerous experiences with the spirit world not to doubt it.

Not a medium, unlike spiritist. Most of mine have involved loved ones who've passed on.

There is most definitely something that survives the death of the body. Call it consciousness, soul, spirit, whatever. It's for real.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: March 31, 2017 01:22AM


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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 09:35PM

I don't see any reason to favor the Mormon heaven. God had only a 33% approval rating, which tied him with Lucifer, his apostate son. One third of the voters sat it out. Then there was a war, and demons were created like Orcs in Mordor. Lucifer got all the bad press with God monopolizing scrolls like they were fake news.

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Posted by: Cold-Dodger ( )
Date: March 30, 2017 11:51PM

or if this universe collapses and then re-expands on a continual basis,

You, or some version of you, will happen again and has happened before. Are these different you's? I don't know. Is there any continuity of consciousness between any of them? Probably not. But in a reality where your sense of self is illusory and it's only the information that makes you up that's important, "you" will happen again... it's only a matter of time.

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