Hello,

I posted this on another exMormon thread one time and got some interesting, civil responses. I'd like to open the dialogue here, too if that's okay.

I'm a believing Mormon, but I respect your right to believe what you want, too.

However, I've noticed some troubling downplaying of the Haun's Mill Massacre in United States history textbooks/documentaries as well as the general conversation about Mormonism/religious persecution.

In school, we talked about the Holocaust nonstop and about what happened to the Jews. But, Haun's Mill is the same situation: the government stirred up xenophobia and hatred among the non-Mormons and they reacted violently, slaughtering men, women, and children just because they were Mormon.

I had a conversation with a friend of mine. He's a Jew from out of State and he has ancestors who died in the Holocaust. I asked him if he knew about Haun's Mill and he said "no", so I told him about it. I told him it was odd that the government eliminates it from the textbooks and the downplay of Haun's Mill would be like leaving out the Holocaust from history.

Haun's Mill was horrific. Little kids getting shot and killed, no one was spared. In fact, the mobsters targeted the children because they didn't want them to grow up and make more Mormons. This is abhorrent and as despicable as sending Jews into gas chambers simply for being Jewish. Or enslaving Blacks.

This religious persecution is dangerous and I wish it was talked about more so the United States won't repeat this atrocity.

"This is abhorrent and as despicable as sending Jews into gas chambers simply for being Jewish. Or enslaving Blacks."

Don't American Indians count? Or has that been acceptable because the Book of Mormon teaches that they were deserving of God's wrath?

Of course they count. But I'm speaking of religious persecution. The government stirred up xenophobia and these mobsters slaughtered Mormons just because of something they believed.

So it was OK to slaughter American Indians because they weren't Christian? That wasn't a religious thing? The Haun's Mill was insignificant in comparison to what happened to American Indians. And the Book of Mormon in 1 Nephi 13 teaches that God's spirit was with those who did the slaughtering while His wrath was on the American Indians. You didn't even mention them when trying to compare Haun's mill to other historical atrocities. Why? Don't even try to tell me about religious persecution.

J.J. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...the government stirred
> up xenophobia and hatred among the non-Mormons and
> they reacted violently, slaughtering men, women,
> and children just because they were Mormon.


Well, that's the church's version of the story. But reports from the time suggest Mormons had been causing all sorts of trouble.

Meanwhile Mormons downplay the Mountain Meadow Massacre. Read up on it.

To be fair, Hitler also said that the Jews were causing trouble.

No government ordered the massacre at Haun's Mill. It was an unauthorized action on the part of an unofficial militia. There is simply no comparison to government sanctioned ethnic cleansing and genocide.

17 Latter-day Saints were killed by a mob, not because of a government ordered attack. It was absolutely not ordered by the United States. Your inappropriate comparison to Hitler trivializes the Holocaust.

Are Mormons flippant about the battle of Crooked River which preceded Haun's Mill?

Do they even know about it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Crooked_River

Thank you, Shummy. My ancestor, Thomas McBride, was killed at Haun's mill while pleading for his life. How could someone be evil enough to do that? The Mormons were at war with their neighbors. It was a real shooting war. Haun's mill was considered a key target by the opposition. It was a production facility like all the ones the US bombed in WWII.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2017 11:25PM by donbagley.

As usual the whole story goes untold...slanted to make the church look as innocent as the new lamb they were not...perhaps you could read up on the town of gallatin i believe it was...looted pillaged and burned by the mormons...it became an eye for an eye retaliation...perhaps youd be interested in reading of the mormons attitude upon arrival...you might as well sell me your farm cheap or give it to me cuz this here is the promised land...i chuckle youd even say hauns mill in the same breath as the holocaust...typical mormon hysteria...i guess the 80000 natives killed in utah and idaho or the 120 men women and children at mountain meadows just pale compared to what 10 or 12 at hauns mill...i honestly dont recall the total...dont care really to relearn it...it was unfortunate but as morms love to say...those were different times...it was common for 37 year old men to coerce 14 year olds into matrimonial bliss with tales of angels and drawn swords...you can chuckle here if youd like even though it wasnt real funny...hauns mill has merely become a tale to stoke the persecution complex mormons seem to enjoy...imo of course...Under the Banner of Heaven is a great read if youd like to glimpse the early mormon perspective...some of which still thrives today...excuses can always be made for the right people...give the nazis a break

You might be as surprised as i was to learn that the church was quite sympathetic to the nazi movement...oh the things you dont learn at sunday school...and thats just a real shame...welcome hang around...just no end of new perspective floating around here

In exchange their missionaries and local wards got special treatment throughout his rein.

That's the truth according to believing mormon BYU professors who have checked it out in detail.

This is going to be interesting. *grabs popcorn*

With no respect intended, J.J., your argument is specious and nonsneical.

17 people died at Haun's Mill. Yes, it was a tragedy, and no matter the circumstances, nothing excuses the killing of women and children, or any innocent people . The perpetrators were militiamen drafted by Governor Boggs to quell what was perceived as the Mormon insurrection. I don't really know if the perception match the reality at the time, but there were generally concerns in the surrounding areas that Mormons had taken over, and because of the Mormon tendency to vote in blocks, there was a lot of concern especially regarding issues like slavery, if I remember my history right and the reasons that Mormons were driven from the state of Missouri.

Hence the extermination order. Obviously in order to drive people out by extermination or Force is morally suspect at best.

This doesn't even begin to in any regard compare to the slaughter of millions of Jews, Romani,Russian POWS, Polish, Germans, various European peoples, homosexuals, and the disabled during the Holocaust. that you would have the temerity to compare the killing of 17 people to the killing of 6 to 14 million people? Boo-fucking-hoo, frankly. The slaughter at Haun's Mill doesn't even compare to the slaughter at the Mountain Meadows Massacre, either, where something like a hundred and twenty people were killed for absolutely no reason other than hysteria about the invasion of Mormon territory that Brigham Young and the Mormons had appropriated for themselves, even though other peoples already had claims on it.

Given the amount of death, destruction, and calamity that occurred in the Western United States in the early and middle part of the 19th century, during the Manifest Destiny period, when Americans felt like they were entitled to settle the entire United States all the way out to the Pacific, Haun's Mill seems like a blip on the radar. There were no doubt countless instances of settlements and villages being raided and looted, resulting in many deaths over a period Of decades. There were many minor Wars and skirmishes that occurred due to tensions revolving around slavery, states rights, and probably mostly, clashes between Native Americans and Pioneers looking to settle the West. The fact that Haun's Mill is not studied in depth and textbooks is not a reflection of some kind of perceived anti-mormon bias that you seem to be convinced of. I don't recall studying Haun's Mill in social studies when I was in school, although there was about a page in our textbook devoted to Mormonism in the context of Western settlement in the United States.

The audacity you have to compare Haun's Mill to the Holocaust is astounding. You need to check yourself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2017 11:31PM by midwestanon.

I don't think any Jewish snipers nearly killed Hitler in his own house, for that matter. Boggs thought the Mormons were insane for a reason.

Today Jewish snipers would do that were that tried by another Hitler.

We have Mossad these days. So hell yeah, Jewish snipers of the world unite against the Hitlers! They can and they will.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2017 05:09AM by Amyjo.

You're very welcome Don.

I have to believe that the mutilation of Samuel Tarwater by the Mormons stirred the passions that led to the HMM.

"I posted this on another exMormon thread one time and got some interesting, civil responses."

And those responses didn't mention the facts and incidents leading up to Haun's Mill?

"the government stirred up xenophobia and hatred among the non-Mormons and they reacted violently, slaughtering men, women, and children just because they were Mormon"

Yeah, that's the canned, pre-chewed church version all right. Looks like you know only what the church wants you to know.

The state did no such thing. The Mormons were quite able to do that all by themselves. Tragic as it was, Haun's Mill was retaliatory for the sacking and looting of Gallatin.

Time for your education, JJ. You may want to read this (or not). Your conditioning may cause you to be unable to believe it, but there's nothing we can do about that.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1763474

First, you should learn about Sidney Rigdon's salt sermon, the Mormon sacking of Gallatin, Millport, and Grindstone Fork in Daviess County, and the Battle of Crooked River. Maybe then you will understand what led to Haun's Mill. The Mormons as a group were not innocent victims of persecution. They caused most of their problems themselves.

here is a place to start

http://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/findingaids/rg005-01

Hasn't the glorified church version blamed the victims of the massacre for their own demise? I thought the current leaders used to brag that these settlers refused to heed the warnings to leave and thereby brought on their suffering (start singing that "follow the ______" song).

Yes, glad I'm not the only one that remembered that, they refused to leave despite being warned by j.s. of the slaughter coming their way.

Weren't they ordered to leave hauns mill before the massacre by j.s. but they refused or didn't receive the order? I could be wrong I saw it in a video clip in an institute class once. But comparing it to the holocaust is just nuts because one was a grand scale extermination and one just wasn't. And plus there is a lot of things left out of the history books I don't remember mountain meadows being taught either in school I think I'd remember that one. And speaking of history why was I not taught the true history of the church in church growing up?

I'm not a Mormon, but reading about the Haun's Mill Massacre IS horrifying.

Anyone who gives those who killed the others a pass...well...I can see why people would compare stories the Nazis did (more towards other period than the camps, such as stories when they did things similar to Haun's Mill in the Jewish encampments in Poland where VERY similar [almost identical in at least one or two stories] things occurred).

It was also done under the auspices of "War."

Haun's Mill, from what I read, is carried under the banner of what history seems to call "The Mormon War" or at least the first one (there was one in Missouri, and apparently a larger and longer one in Utah).

It started at what some term the battle at Crooked River...though that seems hilariously misnamed. The closest to a battle would be what we may term to be a Gang War. You had VERY few casualties (you may have more casualties at a Nascar race iwith one or two bad wrecks than you did at that "battle").

In it, it appeared that there was this group called the Danites who were stirring up a LOT of trouble. This resulted in their assault on some of the unhappy Non-Mormons in the area. This resulted in a Mormon assault, with a total of 5 casualties (according to wiki it was 4 fatalities among those, a majority were Mormon).

This attack led to what seems to be Mass Hysteria and perhaps the WORST order ever issued on American Soil that I can tell. It would be on par if not worse than Hitler's orders to exterminate the Jews. It WAS written in the same line, and it WAS an extermination order.

This led to Haun's Mill, which is parallel to two instances in Poland where the Nazis (remember, they had considered it somewhat of a war time as well) tracked down what they felt was some resistant Polish Jews to a building. There were Jews hiding in the Walls, so they basically stood back, and shot the walls. Then went through the buildings and shot anyone they found, including little boys. The numbers were actually NOT has large as other massacres, but seems very similar to what happened at Haun's Mill.

So, why isn't this brought up more in US history?

For one, I was never taught any of this in History class, but there is a more modern day parallel which I heard about, but which was not covered that much either.

I see there are two reasons.

1. Haun's Mill, while terrible, just isn't that big of an event. Compared to other events in US history, it is actually VERY MINOR in comparison. Let's compare to just one Slave rebellion (and those don't get much notice in US history books either) in the South where you had more people killed than Haun's Mill, and even that isn't covered in US history books. You only have so much room to cover a subject, and thus normally only the bigger and major events are covered. Haun's Mill affected Mormons and a FEW Missourians in a few counties...a very MINOR thing compared to the Kansas War, or the Missouri compromise, or basically most other major events of the 19th century.

A prime example of modern day horrors. I referred to the incidents in Poland, but almost no one hears or reads about them. They may be referred to or shown occasionally (I think there was a movie...Shindler's list? That had reference to at least one of these incidents) for the same reason. When covering the horrors of WWII, many times the larger and more well known events (the concentration camps, the death camps, the work camps, the trains, the massacres by the Nazi's on the Jews as the Allied troops made progress,etc) get noted far more often.

2. The US history books do NOT like to talk about things that do not favor the US. I agree, as a Never-Mo what I've read about the extermination order is EXCESSIVELY bothersome. I would even agree it is as bothersome as what Hitler declared towards others in multiple desires to exterminate them.

This is not something most Americans want to know about. They do not want to know the ugly side of their history, nor the terrible things that they did.

Someone mentioned the Native Americans and there treatment. There were times that they too were treated with the idea of extermination towards their tribes and people. You do not hear much of this (though it is at least discussed) in history class.

Another event and much more recent is the US comparison to Nazi Germany. The US did NOT have death camps, but they did have concentration AND work camps for a certain group of people called the Japanese in World War II. The living conditions and what they did to the Japanese was a TERRIBLE thing. However, you normally will not read about the horrors of what America did to it's own people, or the terrible things that they placed upon them in any history book.

Most don't realize that there were some German Americans that ALSO were taken prisoner and treated as such...which should also be offensive...but...YOU NEVER HEAR of that in history books or anywhere else.

The point is, Americans do not like facing the evil realities of what has happened in their past. It's not something we read in our history books.

For me, I don't think it's so much as being flippant (after reading about it, yes, I agree, it IS horrifying, and I think most americans would agree on that), as much as it is not as big an event in American history as it may be for Mormons, and secondly, we tend to avoid the nastier parts of American history in favor of things that are much happier or nicer towards what we feel being an American is about.

I'm Jewish JJ, and I get the comparison.

Both times the victims were murdered because of their religion. The assailants may have had different motives, but were evil nonetheless.

Religious persecution knows no bounds. Mormons historically have perpetrated some of their own evil atrocities on other faiths and people. Such as the Mountain Meadows Massacre where the motive for murdering 157 men, women and children can be traced back to Haun's Mill massacre as "retribution." As far as I'm concerned it was a lazy ass excuse to loot and murder those souls as they were crossing from Utah into California. The Mormons were disguised as Indians, to add cowardice to their atrocities.

There were Mormon militias from the earliest days of the church to protect Joseph from his enemies and accusers, and later Brigham. They were known to commit murder in the name of God, sometimes against other LDS. If a LDS wanted to leave the "fold," by up and moving away, it was more likely he'd be found murdered by his wife and children after the local leaders were finished with him. Then they'd confiscate his land, farm, and home - turning his family out since they no longer would be needing it.

Or a young man in love with a young maiden, in his polygamous community. If he didn't disappear quietly, it wasn't unheard of that he'd become castrated by the senior elder in the community who coveted the young maiden more than he - enough to murder for. Some of those castrated men did die from their wounds. The ones who lived? Well you do the math.

Evil is evil, no matter how you dice it.

Shooting little children between the eyes - it doesn't get much uglier than that. Whether 17 or 157, murder is still murder. The Holocaust was driven one despot's desire to rule the world, by eliminating his competition at the source. Sure Haun's Mill may pale in comparison, but the hatred fueling the carnage was the same.

Sorry, Amyjo and JJ, but the Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, resistance members, etc. were NOT murdered because of their religion.

Without going into the details of what a jew is, many Jews have nothing to do with the Jewish religion - look at the founders of communist parties all across Europe, for example. My French in-laws had to hide but they were as atheist as they come.

No, it was racism, politics and revenge which motivated their assassination, not religion.

And comparing Haun's Mill with the deportation and extermination of millions is frankly disgusting. Nothing the Mormons experienced at the hands of others can compare with the year and a half the grandmother of my children spent in Ravensbrück or the torture and death of those who didn't return.

Get real!

Tom in Paris

Jews have been historically persecuted for their religion.

That's a fact. That the Holocaust was fueled by a maniacal madman with a black hole in place of a heart, is no exception.

He started with the extermination of the Jews. It didn't end there, because it never does.

One person dying is a loss of a universe, in Judaism. The elimination of anyone because of a "defect" in choice of religion, disability, sexual orientation or whatever reason to a Jew is the same as 6 million.

You don't get that apparently. Your bad.

I had relatives at Auschwitz. And at Haun's Mill. To me their lives were the same. To be murdered because of their beliefs is no different.

Lastly, Judaism is not, nor was ever, a *race.* It was and is a religion. The people of the tribe are bound by their beliefs. Not an ethnicity, bloodline, or color of their skin.

Hitler didn't target Jews because they were a race, but a religious tribe of nomads who've survived down through the centuries. Not only have they survived, but thrived despite all the pogroms and genocides inflicted on them. What binds them together isn't a race. It is their religion.

While Hitler was every bit a racist, that wasn't directed at the Jews. He was an intolerant bigot.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2017 03:47PM by Amyjo.

He did his nasty deeds to Jewish victims because of his bias against what he considered to be a race.

Thank you Soft Machine. I am so tired of the missing information and lack of a the big picture when it comes to the holocaust. And as a gay man, I am outraged that so many believe it to be only about the Jews and their religion when in fact 5 million other people were exterminated. And when survivors were freed from the death camps, the homosexuals were often taken directly to prisons to finish their sentences.

This wasn't about religion. It was racism and bigotry and imperialism and ignorance and on and on.

Anyway. I didn't say it as well as you did. But thank you.

By all accounts I've read. The Mountain Meadows Massacre was the single factor--with the unearthing of the victims' remains in 1999--that sent me researching the subject.

A reasonable number killed from the Fancher-Baker train is, by all accounts, 120 or 121 men, women, and children with the latter two groups making up the majority, probably 2/3's, counting adolescents as children. Seventeen young children survived and were placed with Mormon families and later retrieved by Jacob Forney and James Lynch.

It's quite probable a number of apostate Mormons had joined the wagon train and met the same fate, but my take is they probably numbered less than a dozen or so.

I'm a nitpicker on this one because LDS "faith promoting history" has done its worst to distance the church and its leaders from this horror, which, until the Oklahoma City bombing, was the largest murder of white Americans by other white Americans.

Even non-Mormons aren't immune to committing historical distortions in this area. Right now I'm laughing because elsewhere on the Internet a gonzo wannabe authority accused me of being a Mormon (I'm a technical Nevermo although all my immediate family was baptized) while smearing historian David Bigler. David is a friend of mine, one of Will Bagley's "mentors," and I consult his works regularly.

Finally, events at Haun's Mill were only a somewhat minor factor in the forces that led to the mass killings. With Johnston's Army on the way, Brigham Young was ready to "make a statement" as a means of retaining political power; Parley P. Pratt had been murdered in Arkansas some months before, and then there was just plain greed. The doomed wagon train may have been the richest to cross the plains during the entire period of the Overland Migration. Their herd of cattle may have numbered over 500, and the horses with them, many of them thoroughbreds, numbered several hundred as well.

It's unthinkable to me that god-fearing Mormon men in the Cedar City militia would've committed this monstrous act without orders and sanction from Salt Lake City.

I think a huge problem is that Mormons don't teach that they drew first blood by driving out people and burning their homes. So at Haun's Mill, the locals attacked Mormons before the Mormons attacked them. It was seen as preemptive. Since that time, the Mormons have claimed so much persecution that Dallin Oaks publicly said that persecution against the Mormons was on par with that of the American Blacks before civil rights legislation. What a thing to say. That earned Oaks "the worst person of the day" on MSNBC's Keith Olberman show on October 14, 2009. Yes, killing Mormons at Haun's Mill was a bad thing, but even Mormons out-did the Missourians when they killed the Fancher Baker party at Mountain Meadows. And that action was sanctioned by Brigham Young himself.

Mormons' sense of their own persecution is hugely bloated. The persecution that did happen took place largely out of Sidney Rigdon's plan to burn out and drive away settlers from the lands that the Mormons wanted. Mormons had become a nuisance and a danger to Missourian settlers. And while Joseph Smith was busy trying to get women into bed with him, Sidney Rigdon ran the church. Rigdon WAS the church, which is why he wanted to take over after Smith's death.


EDIT: I had to edit this a second time, because Oaks didn't say that Mormons' persecution was like the Jews, but like the Blacks before civil rights legislation. (Coincidentally and ironically, the LDS church was steadfastly against the Civil Rights Amendment.)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2017 03:56PM by cludgie.

Neither do the Mormons get a pass for aiding and abetting the Nazis murder the Jews during the Holocaust.

JJ, did you know of this obscure but important piece of history?

Mormons used genealogy to smoke out Jews amongst them in Nazi Germany. Mormons served as SS guards in concentration camps. Mormons banned Jewish converts from among their meeting houses with large signs posted to keep them out.

A Mormon Resistance Fighter was excommunicated for trying to save Jews, before he was executed by the Germans for helping to save his fellow brothers and sisters from the gas chambers.

Apostle J. Reuben Clark back home in Salt Lake City was a tireless anti-Semite, who believed the Jews were getting their just rewards when Hitler murdered them.

If you would like to know more of the Mormon connection to Hitler, here's a good resource for your library:

https://www.amazon.com/Moroni-Swastika-Mormons-Nazi-Germany/dp/0806146680



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2017 06:23AM by Amyjo.

I did NOT know that piece of History. That too is also horrifying.

It is terrible what people do to each other.

Before he was killed he was tortured. They poured cold water on his legs in an unheated cell in winter. When the water froze, they beat off the ice with clubs and poured on more and more. His cell had no heat, no bed or cot, and no blankets of any kind.

The mormons who turned him in to the Nazis said they would have killed him themselves if they had a chance because by passing out fliers promoting freedom, he was putting this mormon ward at risk and giving Hitler a reason to shut them down and possibly kill some of them.

During sacrament meeting time, they sometimes played Hitler speeches and they put up signs telling Jewish mormon converts that they were not allowed to enter the building. They had a Nazi flag flying above the doorway and everyone who entered or left the chapel walked beneath it.

There are no words for such cruelty.

I have a copy of Moroni and the Swastika. That was a real eye-opener! I had never heard of Helmuth Hubener before reading this book.

It is sad what happened. I'm not sure there are many who would defend what happened. However I don't think it fair to ignore all of the events leading up to to Haun's Mill.

Now to your post.

-----------------------------------------------

"However, I've noticed some troubling downplaying of the Haun's Mill Massacre in United States history textbooks/documentaries as well as the general conversation about Mormonism/religious persecution."


Please explain. I'm not sure how you would quantify this downplaying. I grew up in Texas and we were taught about the Alamo and Goliad. One was a virtual massacre and the other was a real massacre. I'll bet we spent a week on the Alamo and about 10 mins on Goliad even though Goliad was so much worse. My guess is that since in general the Alamo is credited with turning the tide of the war it is deemed more important.



"In school, we talked about the Holocaust nonstop and about what happened to the Jews. But, Haun's Mill is the same situation: the government stirred up xenophobia and hatred among the non-Mormons and they reacted violently, slaughtering men, women, and children just because they were Mormon."


Sydney Rigdon declared war on the mob on July 4th, 1838. Did the Jews declare war against Germany?


"I had a conversation with a friend of mine. He's a Jew from out of State and he has ancestors who died in the Holocaust. I asked him if he knew about Haun's Mill and he said "no", so I told him about it. I told him it was odd that the government eliminates it from the textbooks and the downplay of Haun's Mill would be like leaving out the Holocaust from history."


Weird that he would think it odd that the government eliminates it from the textbooks. What put it in his head that the government publishes textbooks? Also, I think your friend was just being nice. Kind of like feigning agreement in an effort to end an uncomfortable conversation.


"Haun's Mill was horrific. Little kids getting shot and killed, no one was spared. In fact, the mobsters targeted the children because they didn't want them to grow up and make more Mormons. This is abhorrent and as despicable as sending Jews into gas chambers simply for being Jewish. Or enslaving Blacks."


It is estimated that slave trade had somewhere around 5 million murders. The holocaust is well documented. Only here in the US can the offended party have murdered more people and still claim the victim card. If you are going to claim persecution the least you can do is bring more to the table than a 1:6 (20 Haun's Mill:120 Mountain Meadows) discrepancy in murders. More people have died from labor disputes than Mormons being religiously persecuted.



"This religious persecution is dangerous and I wish it was talked about more so the United States won't repeat this atrocity."


Was the Mormon War primarily about religious persecution?

Looks like our friendly OP has had enough. Posing as a progressive Mormon, he showed up to complain that Haun's Mill wasn't a major topic of U.S. history, immediately segued to Hitler, then disappeared. I'd like to know where he posted before to get his "interesting, civil" responses. If it had been here or r/exmo, he would have gotten his facts straight and would not have needed to post this time. There's no prior record of "J.J." on this site. I suspect that he's just another TBM who thought he could put us in our place, and discovered that it doesn't work.


To Betty G:

"Anyone who gives those who killed the others a pass"

Who exactly is giving the perpetrators of Haun's Mill "a pass"? Can you point to any? Haun's Mill was sheer butchery, a barbaric atrocity without excuse, and if there is a hell, those who committed those acts deserve to be consigned to its deepest caverns.


"This attack led to what seems to be Mass Hysteria and perhaps the WORST order ever issued on American Soil that I can tell."

The *worst* ever? Are you serious? I guess you've never heard of the Indian Removal Act of 1830, signed into law by Asshole Andrew Jackson. It helped to provide cover for the U.S. policy of systematic enforced dispossession of tribal lands. The Trail of Tears was a direct result of legislation like this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Removal_Act
https://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/ourdocs/Indian.html


"It would be on par if not worse than Hitler's orders to exterminate the Jews. It WAS written in the same line, and it WAS an extermination order."

As bad or worse than the orders for the Final Solution? Have you no sense of perspective or proportion? Holy crap, Betty.

The Jews did nothing as a people to provoke Hitler; merely existing was all it took. In contrast, the Mormons had been bad neighbors for years. I'm not "giving a pass" here; the victims of Haun's Mill were innocent of wrongdoing.

But if you had read the link I posted upthread, you would have known that Haun's Mill was not due to Boggs' order:

"The Haun's Mill massacre was committed on October 30 by an unauthorized militia band who acted in retaliation for the Mormon Danite raids on their towns of Millport, Gallatin, and Grinder's Fork (which had been ordered directly by Joseph Smith, Jr.,) and the Danites' attack on other state militia troops at Crooked River on October 25.

"'No one knows who ordered the attack on Haun's Mill. The militia companies that participated in the assault belonged to General Parks' brigade, but he did not issue the order. The troops were organized under the command of Col. Thomas Jennings, who apparently acted on his own initiative in leading the attack. It is possible that the Missourians received word of Governor Boggs' extermination order and took it upon themselves to carry out the decree, but they never offered this as a reason for the raid.

"'(One problem with this theory is that there is no evidence indicating when Governor Boggs' order became known to the Missourians. Generals Jackson, Doniphan, and Lucas did not receive their orders from the governor until the afternoon of 30 October, and they did not receive an official copy of the extermination order until 31 October.)'

"("The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri," Stephen LeSeuer, U. of Missouri Press, pp. 163-164.)"

See? There’s a difference. Innocent Jews were targeted due to an insane and pathological ideology; innocent Mormons were targeted, not because of their religion or beliefs, but because of the acts of its leaders (like Sidney Rigdon, who first used the term "extermination" against non-Mormons in his "Salt Sermon") and other Mormons who were in rebellion against the state. No Mormons – none – are known to have been killed as a direct result of Boggs' order.

Lilburn Boggs as bad as, or worse than, Adolf Hitler? Give me a break.


To Amyjo:

"Both times the victims were murdered because of their religion… Religious persecution knows no bounds… To be murdered because of their beliefs is no different."

Again: No, the Haun's Mill victims were not murdered because of their religion or beliefs, and it wasn't religious persecution. It was retribution for prior acts committed by Mormons under the auspices of church leaders.

The church likes to make the false claim that Mormons were repeatedly driven out or killed only because they believed in current revelation and living prophets. Please don't make their argument for them. You know better than that.

"Sure Haun's Mill may pale in comparison, but the hatred fueling the carnage was the same."

I agree with you that the Holocaust was pure hatred, but Haun's Mill was driven by anger and fear. The local Missourians were enraged by the Danites' actions, and scared sh**less by the prospect of being next on the list.

Thank you. I for one appreciate the documented comments and sorely needed clarification. Especially as related to the slaughter of the Native Americans and the Indian Removal Act. There was a holocaust in the Americas and it was what was done to the Native Americans.

If you are so into history, it may be time to read the real truth of the expansion of Mormonism and not just what your church allows you to read with their approved slant.

The Mormons gave as good or better than they ever got.

None of it was right. Horrible things were done. But it wasn't as one sided as Mormons want to believe as many of the above posts point out. The Mormons are milking the persecution word for all it's worth.

^^^ Posted in the wrong spot. Should have been on the main thread.

The Holocaust didn't begin by butchering Jews. It began from propaganda started centuries before, and promulgated by Hitler ie, Martin Luther for one enflamed passions against the Jews.

And much of that hatred directed at them through propaganda was rooted in fear and anger. Anger that the Jews were successful in business and finance, law and medicine. The Jews in Germany though a tiny percentage of its population excelled in whatever professions they applied themselves. They rose to the top and the goyim scapegoated the Jews as the reason they themselves could not get ahead in business and commerce. Hitler drove that propaganda in order to incite the Germans against the Jewry of Europe.

And you can see how well that worked.

It was fear and anger that drove the mobs against Mormons too. Perhaps for differing reasons, not the least was that they were not wanted in Missouri or wherever they planted roots. They were constantly uprooted until they moved themselves west to Utah, by those who hated them - some may have been merited, I'm sure there was more that was not.

Like the Holocaust, Haun's Mill was highly politicized and steeped in fear of Mormons, like people feared the Jews.

"The unauthorized militia[9] involved in the massacre was led overall by Colonel Thomas Jennings, of Livingston County with William O. Jennings (Sheriff of Livingston County), Nehemiah Comstock, and William Gee as captains of the three companies. At the time of the attack the militia consisted of 240 men[10] from Daviess, Livingston, Ray, Carroll, and Chariton counties, and included prominent men such as Major Daniel Ashby of the Missouri state legislature and Thomas R. Bryan, Clerk of Livingston County.[11][12][13]

Although the massacre took place a few days after Missouri's governor, Lilburn Boggs, issued his infamous Missouri Executive Order 44 ("Extermination Order" of 1838 - rescinded June 25, 1976 by Governor Christopher S. Bond.), most historians have now concluded that the militia unit had neither the time nor the opportunity to have received news of the order.[14]

Militia member and state legislator Major Daniel Ashby[15] stated in the Missouri House of Representatives that reports from Mormon dissenters led to the attack of Haun's Mill.[16] Those Haun's Mill settlement dissenters were Robert White, George Miller, and Sardis Smith.[6][17][18][19][20]
Shortly before the massacre, anti-Mormon raiders confiscated gun and weapons from Mormon settlers and immigrants.[13] Some of those living in the surrounding area gathered to Haun's Mill for safety....

Captain Nehemiah Comstock's contingent of Livingston militia occupied the mill for nearly three weeks harassing and plundering the Mormons. Life during the winter of 1838-1839 became essentially that of day-to-day survival. Most of the families banded together until they could make arrangements to move along with the rest of the Saints to Illinois. Non-Mormon Harrison Severe, who had refused to join the mob, left with the Mormons.[19] By the end of February 1839, all of the Mormons had left.[36][37]

As this and other confrontations unfolded between Mormons and the people in the state of Missouri, Mormons appealed for redress from the federal government, accusing the state of Missouri with complicity in violence against Mormons for the state's failure to investigate or prosecute those involved.[38][39]" (Wikipedia)

In Judaism saving one life is tantamount to saving the world. Genocide no matter where it is, or how many is irrespective of this belief. That's why the reasons for the Holocaust that drove the mass slaughter of Jews for political and religious reasons, are on par with those of Haun's Mill, or Mountain Meadows Massacre, among others.

Don't you think all groups that claim "persecution" are those that in fact started stirring up trouble in the first place?

Look what's happening in Russia with JWs. The Morg wisely is choosing not to antagonize the people and the laws they help create, that's why they'll remain unscathed.

I happened to come across that place last year, and nearly got my car stuck in the mud. I had a hard time finding the stone marker before I did. Even Missourians do not regard TSCC highly. There's a reason the Community of Christ is more welcomed by Missourians today; they saw first-hand that agitation doesn't work. The Mormon terrorists and agitators aligned with Brigham Dung right after the death of the Dreamer of Dreams, and went on their merry way.

The seemingly-brainwashed behavior of the curators of the Liberty Jail museum and other TSCC-run attractions in Illinois was not evident visiting the CoC temple, the Temple Lot building, or meeting their people.

Morgbots are meant to be extremist; they are possessed with converting the world to their theological ideals. The alternative to vigilantism is for government to take charge and deal with these religious extremists. That's what Lilburn Boggs and Thomas Ford stepped up to the plate to do.

That may be "flippant" to you but to me that's just reality. The two things which cause almost all of the world's wars and civil strife are nationalism and religion. The fact that Utahns are not as aggressive reflects the lessons they learned.

I have a bigger issue with school textbooks and history classes in American schools downplaying or even ignoring Joseph Smith.

You wrote,"the government stirred up xenophobia and hatred among the non-Mormons and they reacted violently, slaughtering men, women, and children just because they were Mormon"

Where do you get this? In reality, Mormons had done their share of "stirring up" by arriving en mass into an area and trying to dominate those settlers who preceded them.

Did you ever here of "mobs" attacking Methodists, Baptists, or Lutherans in the Midwest and Plains? No, because they acted civilly toward others.

So how many Mormons were killed in Haun's Hill skirmish? 17? How many in the Mountain Meadows Massacre? 129. The Mountain Meadows Massacre was the largest act of terrorism in the United States prior to the 1995 OKC Murrah Building bombing. Why is the Mountain Meadows Massacre not emphasized in history books?

Went to watch this movie tonight. It's based on the Armenian genocide by Turkey during WWI.

1.5 million Armenians were slaughtered by the Turkish government. To this day Turkey denies it ever happened.

What a compelling story.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2017 10:15PM by Amyjo.

A US ambassador to Turkey during the Armenian genocide was asked by a Turkish official if Turkey could cash in the American life insurance policies of the deceased Armenians?

The American ambassador looked at him in shock and disbelief and answered Turkey would not profit from their massacre by American insurance companies, as he turned and walked away.

How ruthless and calculating could he have been?

Genocide is possible anywhere. The conditions that were in place for the Holocaust could happen again. That's why it is important to understand the motivations that drive the agendas of those responsible from history. There are parallels between these events, however disparate they are by region, or numbers.

Yikes! That's almost unbelievable.

Anyway, insurance policies stipulate who the beneficiaries are, and it's certainly not the government that murders the insured.

The Turkish officials reasoning was that because the murdered Armenians left no survivors (and hence beneficiaries,) their insurance proceeds would rightfully revert to the state.

Pretty brazen, right?

Officially Turkey denied the genocide. Unofficially there can be no denying it was responsible.

The producer who made the movie "The Promise," also made Hotel Rwanda. Both are powerful historical docudramas of two fairly recent genocides in world history.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2017 02:10PM by Amyjo.

I don't know if it's an equal comparison.

6,000,000 Jews murdered by the president of their country

Or

13 Mormons killed by a mob/militia of a county in some backwoods state

Btw, more Mormons killed non-Mormons than Mormons were killed by non-Mormons. Mormons killed around 120 men, women and children in the Mountain Meadows Massacre, nearly 10 times as many Mormons killed in Hauns Mill.

Btw, you rarely hear about the Mountain Meadows Massacre either.

We might hear about it more if the LDS church hadn't been so successful at squashing the story, whilst successfully maintaining that it was caused by Native Americans, and not white Mormons.

Not hardly. There were 17 murdered, including women and children. The men of the Mormon community were disarmed beforehand by the militia, so they weren't able to defend themselves. They were slaughtered like animals.

14 were non-fatally injured. At least a couple succumbed after the massacre to their injuries.

"The Massacre:

On October 30 at approximately 4 p.m., the militia rode into the community. David Evans, a leader in the community, ran towards the militia, waving his hat and calling for peace. Alerted to the militia's approach, most of the Latter-day Saint women and children fled into the woods to the south, while most of the men headed to the blacksmith shop. Unfortunately, the building was a particularly vulnerable structure as the widely spaced logs made it easy for the attackers to fire inside. The shop became a deathtrap, since the militia gave no quarter, discharging about 100 rifles into the building.[12] Grand River Township Justice of the Peace Thomas McBride, wounded while escaping the blacksmith shop, surrendered his gun to Jacob S Rogers Jr. who shot him, then hacked his body with a corn knife (scythe blade). According to their own account they fired seven rounds making upwards of 1,600 shot during the attack of Haun's Mill.[24] The attack lasted 30 to 60 minutes. The sun set at 5:16 p.m.[25]

After the initial attack, several of those who had been wounded or had surrendered were shot dead. Members of the militia entered the shop and found 10-year-old Sardius Smith, 7-year-old Alma Smith (sons of Amanda Barnes Smith), and 9-year-old Charles Merrick hiding under the blacksmith's bellows. Alma and Charles were shot (Charles later died), and a militia man known as "Glaze, of Carroll county", killed Sardius when he "put his musket against Sardius's skull and blew off the top of his head."[26] Later, a William Reynolds would justify the killing by saying, "Nits will make lice, and if he had lived he would have become a Mormon."[8] William Champlin who was "playing possum" heard the conversations, was discovered, held captive a few days, then released.

Several other bodies were mutilated, while many women were assaulted. Houses were robbed, wagons, tents, and clothing were stolen, and horses and livestock were driven off, leaving the surviving women and children destitute.

As a result of the massacre 17 Mormons died: Hiram Abbott (25), Elias Benner (43), John Byers, Alexander Campbell, Simon Cox, Josiah Fuller (35), Austin Hammer (34), John Lee, Benjamin Lewis (35), Thomas McBride (62), Charles Merrick (9), Levi Merrick (30), William Napier (43), George S. Richards (15), Sardius Smith (10), Warren Smith (44), and John York (62). Fourteen more had been injured: Jacob Foutz (38), Jacob Hawn (34), Charles Jimison (35), Nathan K. Knight (36), Tarlton Lewis (33), Gilmon Merrill (30), George Myers (29), Jacob Myers Jr.(23), Jacob Potts (25), Hiram Rathbun, Alma Smith (7), Mary Stedwell, John Walker (44), and William Yokum (33). There were a few uninjured men, including William Champlin (44), Ellis Eames (48), Rial Eames (25), David Lewis (24), and David Evans (34).

In the morning after the 7:42 a.m. sunrise, fourteen of the dead were slid from a plank into a large unfinished dry well[13] and covered with straw and a thin layer of dirt.[27] The other three - Benjamin Lewis (33), originally buried on the David Lewis farm, was later exhumed and moved to a local cemetery; Charles Merrick (9) died later and was buried elsewhere; and Hiram Abbott (25) was later removed to his father's place where he died.[28]

Four of the 240 militiamen were wounded, but none fatally. John Hart, a Livingston resident, was wounded in the arm. John Renfrow had his thumb shot off. Allen England, a citizen of Daviess, was severely wounded in the thigh.[29] Jacob S. Rogers Jr., a Daviess resident, was shot in the hip by Nathan Kinsman Knight.[30]" (Wikipedia)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2017 09:48AM by Amyjo.

JJ,

For lots of historical detail and sources, so of which others have eluded to, check out the posting by steve benson, "Mormon Efforts to Exterminate the Truth about the "Extermination Order"

It's a long read, but it thorough and lists sources for more information.

This whole thread is a red herring.

Of course, there's been a lot of good discussion:

-Haun's Mill isn't even a blip on the radar when you consider the magnitude of "history" that's shoveled into kid's minds.

-And the noted disproportionality between Haun's Mill and Meadow Mountain Massacre--a full order of magnitude--yet a skirmish within the same series of events, going without the OP's notice or demand for more recognition, let alone the gargantuan difference in magnitude and motivation for all those noted WWII atrocities, make this an outrageous "debate."

"Society" decides what history students learn, though, and there's way too much of it to begin with. History students in college begin to focus on specialized areas of interest. By the way, my TBM brother has a degree in History, and says he'd never heard of the Meadow Mountain Massacre.

Anyway, that returns me to the point-of-view that this entire post is a red herring of some sort. Ex-Mormons do not decide what's taught in History classes. So why is the OP targeting Ex-Mormon websites to pose his question (supposedly more than this one)?

As the discussion shows, people on this site are very attuned to the topic, and certainly not "flippant" about it. Ex-Mormons aren't "hiding" the Haun's Mill Massacre, and neither did they perpetrate it. So why pose the question here?

They are flippant? What people?

I was thoroughly indoctrinated on the Haun's Mill massacre and it's Mormon victims. What I was never taught about, not in thousands of Sunday School classes, four years of seminary classes, four years of BYU religion classes, and a two year LDS mission, was the massacre at Mountain Meadows. Learning about it finally at age 40 began my journey out of Mormonism. I'm not flip about Haun's Mill but I now doubt its authenticity. If the Church would lie about Mountain Meadows it would lie about anything.

Seems that you all chased poor JJ away. How dare you speak the facts like that.