It seems like every single one of us has the same crazy shit in our heads. Some of it very deep in the head. I can almost predict exactly what a BIC will say in conversations and what they believe. Its like we all had the same programmer and they created an army of robots on purpose that knew just enough to give their money away. And as a product of this brainwashing we are all more susceptible for other scams of life. Any BIC that has become a real person and is living a real life according to the laws of sanity of this world i am impressed. It is not easy because i know what they did to our minds kind of as i keep deprogramming.

In my early teens I repudiated Mormonism, because it creates robotic people. I didn't want to be one. They told me I had free agency, but I wasn't to practice it. Later they just changed it to agency, because there was nothing free about it.

Yep. In my house, you were free to choose to get harsh, unreasonable punishment.

Before correlation, mormonism was a lot friendlier, a lot 'looser' and there were hardly any restrictions on the type of personality you displayed, so long as you wore a suit and tie to church.

I think that was because there were no uncomfortable facts readily available to trouble the sheep. I never heard of the Tanners til after the internet arrived. I even read "No Man Knows My History" in the mission field and since there was no confirming evidence easily available, I didn't see it as a challenge to the church.

Seriously, the church was not a bad community (as long as you were White & Delightsome) back in the 60s & 70s.

But now, holy cow! The church is being challenged, HARD! And they have to work HARD to keep the sheep propped up and believing. It's not a job envy, but at least the benefits are there.

I imagine more people have caught on to the con by now. More than before atleast.

I have to agree. I had a real love/hate relationship with the church in the 60s and early 70s. I hated that I had to be weird, couldn't go swimming with my friends on Sundays, had to wear 1-piece swimsuits when you had to special order them to even find one, and that in high school I had to compete against other honor students who didn't have to get up as early in the morning as I did to spend a mind-numbing hour at church.

Most of all, I detested the stupid dress code back in the mini skirt days and before girls could wear pants to school. I was however, brainwashed enough to "know" it was all true and that somehow it was all a blessing for my valiance in the pre-existence and that it could never be proven wrong, so I needed to just go with the flow of the program.

BUT, the other side was that for a bunch of weirdos, we really did have a lot of fun most of the time (with the exception of Seminary). I can think of so so many things we did that you never hear of now and would be completely forbidden. It was about fellowshipping then, about outreach. It wasn't so much about creating a bunch of little robots. There wasn't nearly the indoctrination bullshit they have now. And people were able to be more creative and independent. You could come up with new ideas, you could fundraise for a fun activity. You didn't take your scriptures to girls' camp. The robot production line started and continues to improve with correlation. No originals allowed anymore.

I remember the no swimming on sunday thing. I forgot about, old stan controlled the waters like poseidon.

Agree with elderoldog, Correlation! Correlation killed it.

I wasn't BIC, but my parents were baptized when i was 4. The brainwashing was easy for me and I believed almost everything. It has been the most difficult thing I have ever been through, Declaring I don't believe any of it anymore. I use the word "deprogramming" also. Untangling the lies and life I lived.

Its difficult as hell to just say all your programming is false. It takes more than that to deprogram or untangle what we all took in as children.

When I say I don't believe any of it anymore, I mean the truth claims of the church.

I believe that, in general, people are good. So I do try to retain the good things my parents and leaders taught, knowing they believed it too.

To those of you blaming correlation: I can tell you that the brainwashing definitely existed before correlation. Maybe it's more apparent to me because I am not BIC and remember my brain before I joined the church (before correlation) and my brain shortly after I was baptized as a child. When you're BIC you grew up being brainwashed and didn't notice it.

I joined the Mormon church in the 70s (before correlation) when I was 12 years old and had my first interview with the bishop when I was 13. It was the first time anyone asked me if my thoughts were clean. From that moment on I had a huge guilt complex whenever my thoughts strayed and dreaded every birthday when I would be expected to reveal all to the bishop. The Mormon church now controlled my brain. When I turned 14 and took a trip abroad with a youth group not affiliated with LDS Inc., I was very uneasy about being away from the Mormon church and church members for a month. Being away from my family didn't bother me but being separated from "the church" and unable to take the sacrament, was very worrisome. The Mormon church controlled my brain. So yes, I'd say that although the church was a little freer and more fun before correlation, the brain washing ran deep.

Deeper than we know i would say. I still feel guilty about certain things. All those interviews really messed with me as well. Not sure exactly what you mean with correlation i was born in the early 80's, what is correlation exactly?

Correlation was church headquarters way of being completely in control and happened partly because of the free-thinking University ward I belonged to in California. Sunday school teachers were professors and others who were very educated. Lessons were creative and lively, and I frequently heard members joking that church headquarters wasn't pleased with the free thinking and fun we had. They were right! It seems that someone complained about the lessons. Maybe California is to blame. I remember kind of a rivalry (jealousy?) between the California Mormons and Utah Mormons. Anyway, whatever the reason, The Mormon church decided that everyone needed to be on the same page, i.e. correlation. Lessons were now strictly from the new manual and Mormons worldwide had to teach the exact same lessons each Sunday. No more freedom. And the lessons were incredibly DULL - not the interesting lessons when the teachers had more freedom with the content.

In Relief society, gone were the "cultural refinement" lessons - lessons where baroque music was discussed. Gone were the women focused lessons. Instead, with correlation, the lessons became more male focused. It felt less like a female organization. When correlation happened, an entire year of lessons was focused on the Prophets, from Joseph Smith to the current prophet. Women needed to be reminded that the men were in charge. Talk about boring and oppressive. Relief Society was also no longer allowed to hold bazaars where they previously made money for activities. Can't let those women folk make money.

Fun activities like roadshows, dance festival, Halloween parties with haunted houses (not the stupid "trunk or treat" crap today), etc. disappeared. Again, there was a little jealousy from wards that didn't have resources for fun activities hearing about activities enjoyed by other wards. Another effect of correlation was that money from all wards now went to church headquarters and was then distributed equally to all wards so that one ward wasn't having better activities than another ward. Now all activities sucked. That's my take anyway.

Correlation sucked the life out of the Mormon church and the members now felt that they answered to the big wigs in church headquarters and you'd better not step out of line!!!

Gotcha well they are control freaks that just want the money to roll in at whatever cost. We all have to be drones and kept in line.

In Sept65 I was called to the California Mission. In June of 67 I went into the Mission Home to be Editor of the mission paper, among other things. Anyhow, in the summer of 67 I was to include an article in the paper introducing the new Correlation Program to the missionaries. So, my memory is quite clear that the correlation program was instituted right around that time.....and connedvert is correct about the teachers having much more freedom of thought in Sunday school lessons prior to that. There was a lot of open discussion on some somewhat " controversial" subjects and doctrines then. I think it made Salt Lake nervous so they pulled in the strings and "correlated" everything. It was a good time to restructure the finances and have the bishops and Branch Presidents send the money to Salt Lake and get their stipends sent back to each Ward. That stifled the abilities of the local leaders to pay for activities.

Speaking of activities, when I was a kid in Chicago we had roadshows, hootenannies, dances, hayrides, Halloween parties, scout camp, basketball, bake sales, clothing drive, and more I can't remember. I don't know what they have now, cause I haven't gone for a long time, but I have picked up the idea that it's not the same. In looking back I must totally agree that the Correlation Program sucked the fun out of church.

However, as many here have mentioned, the false doctrines were always there...it just took technology to make it readily apparent.

Hey Connedvert, what University Ward were you a member of?

Correlation presumably made the Church a less fun place to be, but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was built upon a foundation of hogwash long before correlation came into play.

More hogwash then i could ever have imagined.

I remember that lessons were much more interesting in the pre-correlation days. That's why I kept visiting TSCC. Had correlation been the rule back then (in my area it didn't really hit until the mid-eighties), I probably would have walked away in boredom, being a teenager. Also the activities were fun, but the Protestant churches in my area had fun activities too. I think it was the very interesting Seminary lessons that held me the most. We had a great Seminary teacher! Sacrament talks were also much more interesting because of the lack of correlation. I was fascinated at uncorrelated Mormon stuff! If only I had known how untrue it all was.

I listened to a CBC program this afternoon on an ultra orthodox Hasidic Jewish sect in Quebec who established their own community about 15 miles north of Montreal. No TV, radio, newspapers, magazines or internet allowed. Only the study of the Talmud every waking hour. A man who left the sect and now writes about it. He was unaware of the existence of the St. Lawrence River until her "escaped". Fucking soul destroying cults.

Yep that's exactly what happens. I feel like i never got a chance to see the true sky if that makes any sense. I was completely surrounded and consumed within this fantasy that is still programmed deep within. When i am around normal and authentic people its like i am from a different universe then them.

badassadam Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yep that's exactly what happens. I feel like i
> never got a chance to see the true sky if that
> makes any sense. I was completely surrounded and
> consumed within this fantasy that is still
> programmed deep within. When i am around normal
> and authentic people its like i am from a
> different universe then them

Most of us were indoctrinated with the same nonsense, but once we learn it's false, we don't have to live by their rules anymore and they no longer own us. It's a matter of taking your life back. Sometimes life's circumstances are such that life is difficult with or without the LDS church, but we do have control over whether or not we are owned by the LDS church.

Do we? Or does the control stay with us for a while after in the mind?

I think some of us are able to flush it out faster and more completely than others. It's especially difficult if complicating factors exist. Abuse, trauma, mental illness...some days I'm just pleased to be able to breathe and type.

Yea those complicated factors make it more of a problem for sure.

Any person's circumstances may cause regaining control to be more difficult, but the church only has as much control as a person gives it. Any of us who are U.S. citizens [educated in the U.S.] older than maybe thirty or so had to study the U.S. constitution somewhat rigorously in eight grade. We can refer back to that early education in recalling what are our rights.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2017 01:10AM by scmd.

Good call the church makes you forget you even have rights.

And people like Jeffrey Holland say things like "I won't LET you leave the church," but neither he nor anyone else has the power to keep us in the church's clutches as long as we are legal adults and we are not dependent upon anyone who uses the means of support as a way to control us.

I think you're talking about the outside stuff and I'm talking about the inside stuff. I'm out 11 years, but that letter back acknowledging my resignation doesn't always cover the deep indoctrination: I'm not worthy. I have to be perfect. Other people get to be in charge of my time and what I do. I'm working on that crap. Buddhist teachings help. Some meds help. Peace to each of us on our journey.

Maybe the only good thing that happened with correlation was that they quit billing members for ward budget. First they demanded 10% and then they wanted another 1% or so for the day to day expenses of running the church.

We'd just moved to California, fresh out of school. We had literally rolled coins from the piggy bank to buy food. I was pregnant. The bishop called us in his office the first Sunday there and after a 2 minute chat he assessed us 120 dollars in ward budget and would we like to write him a check right then for the whole amount?

That same year, the wealthy ward had a Christmas party with catered food and thousands of little white twinkle lights. Why didn't I leave then--I ask myself over and over again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2017 12:21AM by Dorothy.

That was the goal-purpose of correlation, yes?

I was taught non-stop in Sunday School and Seminary to fear the outside world, to not trust it and to never succumb to it. "The natural man is an enemy to god." The one thing I like about my young self is that while the other boys were trying to score Playboy Mags to peruse, I was searching anywhere I could for LOOK and LIFE and any other magazine that gave me glimpses of the real world. I got caught by my father at 15 reading Valley of the Dolls and that did not go down well. But I had to know what the rest of the world was doing, thinking. In the end that was part of my ticket out of then church. I could never accept the world as evil or deceived or being tricked by Satan. I realized on my mission that the people of the country I was in were not lost or tricked and were for the most part much happier than I was. The day I finally kicked off the shackles and joined them was the best day of my life.

Still, a lot of the effects of the brainwashing linger to this day . . . They really get a hold on you!

Sounds like you got out a lot faster and cleaner than I did. Seminary was a big old fear festival when I went. I was in Sandy Utah. I started seminary 9th grade and 14 years old--1977. Gosh I'm old.

My 9th grade seminary teacher was the worst. EVERY damn day we talked about the second coming and how bad it was going to be. The profit (not sic) would issue the call to go to Jackson County Missouri. We might take the engine out of the car to fashion it into a push cart--there wouldn't be any gas. Then he'd throw an ugly scripture about "WOE unto the woman who gives suck." I'd have nightmares. It was abuse.

The following years weren't as bad for the second coming talk, but still, the patter was about SATAN, SATAN, and more SATAN. We talked about that dude and evil spirits ten times more than Christ. People were evil. All of them. Unless they were Mormon, but even Mormons were right on the edge. One bad thought and you were in danger of being evil as well and permanently evil because repentance was hard and since you were pretty much scum, you'd never be able to pull it off. On it goes.

Thank the heaven I don't believe in that I didn't marry a TBM or stay in Utah. The world is scary, but most people are good. Satan is a myth. I'm a decent human, imperfections and all.

That is exactly my Seminary in the sixties. But I was much further north in Utah. My teacher just could not make the end times scary enough for us. Everything was WEEPINGWAILINGANDGNASHINGOFTEETH. And, he would turn red and glow whenever he got to refer to the Catholic Church as the Great and Abominable Whore of all the Earth. I think all this was to overcome the inferiority he felt as a seminary teacher--not that there is anything wrong with being a seminary teacher--oh wait--there is!

My last semester though a miracle happened. He was replaced with this droolingly hot one--go figure--and he was not all sin/death/destruction like the other one. He was from the south with a southern drawl and we called him "swamp rat." I hope he found his way out.

Ha ha! Go Swamp Rat. You reminded me of WEEPINGANDWAILINGANDNASHINGOFTEETH! My hubby had two TBM apartment mates years ago. If one of them was whiney, the three would go into their pre-assigned roles. I'll never forget Brad doing his interpretation of nashing of teeth.

My parents, as converts, received a lot of advice about rearing children the proper Mormon way. The more my folks attempted to lay down the Mormon law, the more damage my family suffered. I got spanked, slapped and belted from my mother following others that offered good ol Mormon wisdom. I always noticed that my non member friends were rarely punished for dropping dishes, forgetting to take the trash out or for letting the dog roam free in the yard.

Heartbreaking. A church that values obedience and perfection over kindness and tolerance is toxic for children. Toxic for everyone really. Sundays were pure hell at my house. Mondays through Saturdays weren't so great either. How many lessons were taught about parenting with kindness so as not to crush a child's spirit? Yeah, I missed that week as well.

I still hate sundays to this day, absolute hell day. Did not want to gather with my whole family every seven days.

As I read some of the above posts, my mother was pretty TBM, but my dad wasn't, so we all developed different outlooks on life. I was the one who really drank the kool-aid. My family never thought I'd leave. I think personality effected how brainwashed I became. I had to have something as big as GAY come into my life to make me question my beliefs. I left kicking and screaming, but I had to to survive.

Oh, I was going to say--my mother BOUGHT us mini skirts and sewed us mini skirts. We didn't have mormon pictures hanging around the house. We never read scriptures together as a family and we had FHE about once a year under duress. It's a joke in the family now. My dad cussed like you can't believe and he never had a second thought about not keeping the sabbath day holy. We had grandparents who drank coffee and all my father's family get togethers included alcohol for the adults (until my uncle found religion--and his wife always told me he was a lot more fun before he found religion). So I had a lot of "the other side" in my life. I think it made the transition easier for me.

But I still deal with some of the programming. It gets better and better as the years go by.

Even if I went through a lot because of the gay issues I dealt with, it got me out of the lds church and I'll be forever grateful.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2017 06:25PM by cl2.