This is my biggest problem right now and is causing me a 10-wheeler load of anxiety. I know most of the facts about the church and its background, etc., etc. But she insists on sticking to her testimony. It all comes down to my facts vs her faith, two completely disparate things.

I'm sure others on this board have to deal with this. How do you do it? How do you maintain a loving, sustainable relationship when you can't agree on things related to the church?

Am I being too black and white about all this? If so, how do I develop the ability to allow the gray areas into my thinking? BTW, I am going to begin anxiety therapy soon. Hopefully that will help me out with this problem. But I do need real life examples from you folks.

[ I edited the subject line to make it more clear :) ]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2017 11:19AM by Tom Padley.

I love my sister but she's always trying to control me. She has a need (it appears) to control people in her life. She controls (manages) her husband (he loves being told what to do because he's weak) and her friends (who'll let her.)

When she tries to manage me or tell me what I really mean or what I really think or what I really need to do, I find it difficult to be around her. It's my life and ultimately I'm going to do what I damn well please, regardless of her opinion.
I've had conversations where I've said "I didn't choose to be your sister, so I didn't sign on to you controlling me."

When she does that, it makes it difficult to be around her. It makes me think she's insecure in her own positions/beliefs and choices if she's also trying to force others to adopt them.

wow This describes a person of my acquaintance. . I have observed this person desires to control all adult relations, starting specifically. They argued about a bed spread 23 years ago and its still on their bed, they demanded matching clothes on their first cruise. now, (they are female) they have their spouse and all their male relatives wearing matching white bobby socks, matching white leather tennis shoes with matching short shorts khaki high waisted and matching high arm top muscle round neck t shirts. It looks like a middle aged first grade field trip or school uniform, and all matching skin, all shaved legs, all shared sunscreen, all matching same shade sun glasses same shape frame.

its a wonder any of them have jobs which have stayed the same. They gather to buy every light bulb together and discuss every bodys possible purchase even of a book. And this acquaintance, weighs in, and the husband and males in the family, listen, and allow other people to guide their decision.


sigh

if you invite one to dinner, or an event, they say, I'll have to check how that works out (for ______) omg its like a cult.
same gilt/ guilt.

This person took coaching courses in their phd and practiced consciously shaping others behavior after first practicums perhaps accidently applied it to actual family before the course of ethics (*****) I don't know if they got carried away or know after they contracted live in supervising shaping institutionalized kids conduct then became a supervisor this acquaintance became peculiarly controlling lol and it really took off everyone started to copy them but they insist on how many slices of cheese or how to put mustard on bread among adults in the family, even their spouse.

it doesn't help that their family culture included references to the patriarch or the matriarch like control is their thing, expected, their game.

Oh god. Mormonism. I think I only recognize this and see the weird - everyone snapping photos from the same brand camera, standing in the same shoes, males and females with the same legs and shorts and shorty white bobby socks like they all three guys and one gal dressed out of the same box... its peculiar when one isn't running a at risk juvenile offender class with teens in hiphop regalia or 1970s cholos wearing the same pendletons in 100 degree cali weather all the females in baby doll black canvas all the cars low riders hopping sparking in the parking lots000==

fast forward you're thinking, hm middle aged, old folks, professionalism, hey- then snap attack shock stand back they're wearing a little uniform with a patriarch or matriarch making them all mind all the time.

they'd be like take those garments off dress like me baby
lol

once you leave the morg cult emotionally you don't get impressed much by other people's controlling stuff. seriously

I went through that for about three years. It took some time, but this is what I learned to do:

I learned to distinguish the difference in motivation. I was motivated by a desire to know the truth. She was motivated to keep the past in the present (tradition) and to strengthen and not weaken familial and community bonds. Also, she was motivated by a spiritual need that outstripped a need for truth.

Once I realized that our motivations were both good, I was able to concentrate on that and leave alone where the motivations led. So I supported her going to church etc.


The thing is, once I let go trying to be persuasive or even just explaining myself, things changed. She had room to come to her own conclusions. I was very ready and prepared for anytime she raised the issue. I would answer her questions and no more. Eventually she left too.

Allowing space for the other to come to their own conclusions rather than accepting someone else's conclusions is a good thing, and is the very thing the church denies to your wife.

Anyway, good luck to you.

Human

Problem in reverse. Wife left years ago. I hung on but can’t say why other than I perceived some truths that I no longer honor. She never once criticized tithing, bishopric meetings or any activity. Only foot she put down was home teachers I could meet at Burger King. I actually preferred Steak and Shake. Tom back off. Leave it alone. Do yourself and her a favor....

Gatorman
Hey we finally won a game!

What's more important to you, your wife or what she believes in?
You can't force a person to believe what you want them to.
Just love her.

Actually, when someone you love believes something that gives you the creeps, or that you know in your heart and in your conscience is just plain flat out wrong (not to mention dangerous) sometimes you have to make a choice. This is especially true when their beliefs affect YOUR everyday life and the things they may be teaching your children.

Sometimes you can't help "loving" someone. But if you absolutely cannot stand some of the things they believe--things that affect you and your life and how you are treated and how you are looked upon by the person you love---you have to make a choice.

Sometimes it really is best to "fish or cut bait." I walked away from an 18-year long marriage with a man that I loved so much I practically bled through my skin for loving him. He was truly the love of my life, and I will love him until the day I die and maybe after that, but I cannot and will not ever live with him again.

It wasn't religion that made this choice for me--it was something else. But that doesn't matter. It was simply this: he believed strongly in something that I did not, and knowing I had to be true to myself, I made myself walk away.

To thine own self be true, and do what is right for you. Nobody on this board can decide that for you, or counsel you on what is right for you. I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation, but only you can do that, and all the well-meaning advice in the world will not help if it does not make you feel right inside. Good luck to you. Hugs.

It's natural to want to save those we love from things that are harmful. Now that your eyes are open you want the cult to stop victimizing her too. It took my spouse a little bit longer than me to see the truth (I think because he was BIC it was harder to let go) but once he did, he did it completely and permanently.

All that time (about 4 months) I was so very worried. Would he divorce me over this? Would the cult take my husband from me? Would there be an argument when I spend my part of tithing on personal luxuries? I was so mad at having been duped...but could I safely vent to him about it? It was some heavy anxiety, and I hated that he was still believing and being taken advantage of but...what could I say that would prove it for him that I was right?

It turned out I didn't have to sell my point of view other than telling him the facts I'd gathered (all the usual...BOM/first vision fraud, Helen Mar Kimball, no horses/steel/silk etc in Americas, DNA). It was the cult's habit of mistreating people on top of these facts I shared that convinced him I wasn't crazy or deluded and that THEY were the ones doing all the lying.

So my advice: Take your time. It's not a house fire so the rescue doesn't have to be right now, super dramatic and immediate. Be your regular old self, except for this one thing. The boundaries you set about this one thing, though, stick to like glue, in the nicest way possible. Looking back I think I showed too much of the anxiety I felt, and that he thought I thought our relationship was way more fragile and in trouble than he thought it was, and that in turn made him think "well...maybe I should worry"...and we fed off each other and made the cult into this giant elephant in the room. It really shouldn't be that important. That's the problem, mormons put the cult in the center of their existence when religion for normal people is just a little piece of their lives together.

In the end, also, you can rely on the cult to show its true colors. If you are the same old loveable you despite doing what the cult says is very bad, the cog dis will eventually work through her determination to cling to the delusion. The cult has a way of revealing it's nasty nature especially to members whose spouse has left. Suddenly things aren't as hunky dory at the ward as they used to be and good ol friends show how unfriendly they really are. Give it enough rope and it will hang itself.

I hope it goes smoothly for you and she has the lightbulb moment soon.

Your marriage covenant included to love each other for better or worse, yes. So she's in a worse space than you. Can you write her love letters or send her a Hallmark card weekly. Express genuine appreciation and admiration for her and give small examples. Otherwise, it's just flattery. You need to increase your trust in her so she can learn to trust herself. Do not mention anything about the cult or differences. Keep your comments positive, inspirational, warm. This simple step will open the door to better communication. Let her grow at her pace. She may feel comfortable being in denial about the church. If you do small Christ like acts, she may eventually start to see the difference between the cult from Christian values. It may help her transition.

or 42 years? or 47 years?

How old is she? Does she have to change her social group to please you?

How old is she does she have to change her events, pot lucks? for you?

Women don't do that, men don't tell women where to go and eat and which women to drink and eat lunch with- that's not American
maybe a man could get confused, about what he could tell or expect his wife to do if he had worked in the middle east as a guest worker. (An aside, an lds ex husband of an old friend spent a career working in the middle east & just now came home to living in America full time, second wife not having a great time.)

Tom are you still working? Is there anyplace you could volunteer? my brother in law works 18 hours a week at a place he used to manage helping out organizing orders, its gets him a chance to hang out with former employees. A friend's spouse is managing rental properties, interviewing prospects occasionally and overseeing his former workplace occasionally drops in. What are you doing with work, what can you add to you life? if you are't working, can you volunteer or start a small business on the side consulting or selling hours of your former salaried skills? What piece is missing here. Are you home many more hours than usual? It seems like it would be wonderful to have something else to manage, perhaps oversee a department or project partime or pick up a consulting opportunity or hire to coach younger professionaly shaping their choices, maybe write and implement changes in a business you own - rewire a car for gosh sake, or build a kit car or kit plane then go to a car kit club or buy an old car and polish it up.


forcing an elderly male or female person to change their beliefs, hounding or bullying an elderly person to change their beliefs , continually stating an expectation to an elderly person to change their beliefs, even continually forcefully criticizing an elderly persons beliefs-
is elder abuse.

an elderly person has to right to be new age or catholic or Episcopalian or wiccan or republican or independent or democrat or Mormon or artsy or mathematical to be talkative or not - to crochet in any color to dance or not to dance without criticsm without attack on their identify without attack on ideas they identify with, with out attack on preferences beliefs that is part of their life.

really they do.

Simply answers: Married 47 years. Both retired. Other than beliefs we get along great. It's more my problem than hers. My issues are carried over from how I grew up in a dysfunctional home where my dad was inactive, smoked & drank. Mom didn't do church much because of my dad, but she did want to do church. When my dad died in 1975 mom went full tilt into Mormonism and became pushy toward me regarding church. I transferred that pushiness onto my wife, which caused problems. My wife and I have just recently worked that out. But I still feel compelled to inform her of all the things I've learned in that last five years or so. I know I must hold back, but it's so very hard to do.

Tom,
My parents were almost identical to yours. My mother got into the church more after my father died but she was never pushy about it. Anyway, back to you.
"Other than beliefs we get along great" . Not sure if I really understand, beliefs are a big thing. My first wife never had the same beliefs (I know , what was I thinking) and we never got on the same page. It's an issue that just hangs out there, never really being brought to conclusion.

moehoward Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tom,
> My parents were almost identical to yours. My
> mother got into the church more after my father
> died but she was never pushy about it. Anyway,
> back to you.
> "Other than beliefs we get along great" . Not sure
> if I really understand, beliefs are a big thing.
> My first wife never had the same beliefs (I know ,
> what was I thinking) and we never got on the same
> page. It's an issue that just hangs out there,
> never really being brought to conclusion.


Okay. I'll relate an event that happened in our home a while ago. Apparently the stake president was concerned about the disparity between me and my wife. He had the bishop (who I quite like as a person) call to see if they could come over for "just a social call." After a few minutes of light conversation the stake president turned to me and asked me about my testimony. I told him I didn't believe in the church (I had resigned two years earlier and he knew it). Then he immediately turned to my wife and said, "And you still love him anyway." That incident solidified the love between me and my wife regardless of the differences in our beliefs. For us love comes first and foremost. We agree to disagree about faith and belief.

Do you have children? If not you will be fine, just don't get into it. You can't argue faith. Before children, I just ignored the church stuff, Mormons quickly figured out I wasn't active or would ever be. But... once children show up, whole new ballgame.

I have a very sore tongue from repeatedly biting it.

During the first couple years married to my TBM wife (though she has become less and less active lately), I was constantly bombarded by my wife, missionaries, and ward members to convert. I did a lot of research during that time and learned much more about Mormon history than any of those trying to convert me.

In those early years, I gave into the temptation to force my wife to see the true truth about the church; but that led to a lot of arguments and my wife saying that she must choose between me or the church. I've recounted some of it on the RfM, and it wasn't pretty.

I have since learned to just ignore most of my wife's testifying to friends, missionaries, acquaintances; and to offer my honest opinions about the church in response to direct questions or unwanted demands of my time...my wife used to volunteer me to help with her callings, including serving food for young adult retreats and teaching Primary. I mean; Really, you want an atheist teaching Primary lessons to Mormon kids?

The upshot is that the less I tried to convince my wife the church is NOT true, the more she's started to acknowledge that the church is not all it's made out to be. Her questions are no longer intended to challenge my lack of faith, but to better understand how I can be a kind and compassionate man without faith.

Gregs,
Nice post, I can identify. IMHO you already are a kind and compassionate man without faith. The problem (which I had) was the anger and frustration I had with the church, gets in the way. I wanted to scream, "don't you guys get it?". I remember all the church people you described coming by and pretending to be interested in me and talking. My approach now is "I have no interest is disproving you beliefs". Of course, the rebuttal is, "do you believe in god?". My answer, "I have no interest in that hypothesis."(you may have to repeat a couple of times) You will be surprised how disarming that is and how relaxing it is to your psyche.