Disclaimer: I know I'm not perfect, and I'm probably not the best wife, but I try.

I'm terribly unhappy in my marriage. Money has been tight since DH changed jobs seven months ago. Changing jobs also involved a 2,000 mile commute so I see him less than two days a week.

He's not romantic. He doesn't make me feel loved, beautiful, appreciated. He's as dense as they come. His uncle is a great husband (his dad is not), so I've suggested he get husband advice from his uncle. Nope. Maybe it's a male pride issue, but I'm love starved. He doesn't take suggestions well. He's not angry, he's just slow and dense. Too slow. Too dense.

I just don't feel like he gets "it." Any of it. I think the last seven months have just been too much. He's been gone half our marriage.

I don't hate him, but I don't say "I love you" anymore because deep down I don't know if it's true.

He has a very lucrative career, but is a green card holder. If I divorce him he's back to the other side of the world where he'll make 1/10 of what he does now. So economically, it's in our best interest to stay together. After five years, he can apply for citizenship and we can part ways.

I'd rather scream at him than go to marriage therapy. He admits he's failed in a lot of ways as a husband. Like I said, I'm not perfect either. My history of sexual abuse has made things difficult. But I try.

Right now, I'd like to stay economic partners but the idea of an open marriage sounds like a huge relief.

I just want to be loved. I'm only 31.

He may be using you to gain citizenship. If you're in a loveless marriage as you describe, what exactly is he getting from you?

Why enable him, unless he's supporting you and you aren't able to support yourself.

An open marriage is between you and your spouse. But is that really going to resolve the distance between you? It will only make it worse, not less.

You're young enough to make some bold decisions that can make or break your happiness. Why 'settle' for a loveless marriage when you are still writing the chapters to your story?

If he's using you to get his citizenship, then he'll be gone as soon as he gets it. So, ask yourself again, what is in this for you?

Unfortunately, I have bad PTSD and find it hard to support myself (and my mother) on the income I have from a small business I started about five years ago. Regular 9-5’s are emotionally too stressful. I just meltdown after about two weeks.

Short answer: he’s the bread winner and after five years I’d be entitled to a sizeable alimony.

Economically, it’s a win-win.

OP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Short answer: he’s the bread winner and after
> five years I’d be entitled to a sizeable
> alimony.
>
> Economically, it’s a win-win.

Depending upon how much time you have to make it to the magic five-year mark, it might be well worth doing so. For legal reasons (I'm not an attorney, though my wife is [she does not specialize in immigration law] and she agrees with me) it might be wise to give it several months beyond the magic green card date so that it doesn't appear that the marriage occurred for the purpose of giving him legal residence. This applies ONLY if your spouse in no way physically threatens your well-being. If he does, kick him to the curb sooner rather than later.

Thank you for your kind words and excellent legal advice. I hadn’t thought about the legal implications... I’ll definitely keep all that in mind. My husband isn’t a bad man, just not a great husband.

Since both you and your husband have something to gain economically by staying married, IMO it would be in your best interest to schedule a consult with a lawyer. He or she can lay out your options for you. I always say that when you are in a tough spot, it is best to lay all of the facts out on the table. That will help you to make a better decision. You can call your local legal society and ask for an appropriate referral.

I'll try and answer from my own experience.

I was married almost 20 years. In the beginning I'd done anything for my spouse including giving my own life.

Over time we drifted apart. One day she dragged me to see the moving picture "Titanic"

Spoiler alert. The ship sinks.

Close to the end of the movie the hero puts the girl on some floatsom and then sinks into the ocean.

At that point I said to myself. I'd have climbed on the makeshift raft. Not died.

It was then I realised how my love for my spouse had dwindled.

My spoused passed away before I made any decision about staying so I can't speak on that part.

Most marriages are loveless. Marriage is used to control the other person and get what you want from them. Like you say, money or whatever.

40 years ago my mom had the same complaints about my dad. She would go the the bishop and complain about his lack of romance, etc. Bishop ordered him to take her on dates, which didn't last long.

Perhaps you can keep trying to change him.

Better yet, I'd dump him and stay away from men. If you need love, get some dogs, or go lesbian - women are more romantic and loving. You would have much more in common with a woman.

Which brings me to my latest conclusion that generally, men and women should not live together. Too different. And fortunately, women don't really need men any more, so say the feminists.

Free Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Most marriages are loveless. Marriage is used
> to control the other person and get what you want
> from them.

Really?

I certainly hope this is not true. I know it isn't in my case. I hate to think that more people are unhappy than happy in marriage. It never occurred to me that I was an exception to the rule. I really hope mot.

Free Man, please consider that your experience is not everyone else's experience. We live in an age when not everyone HAS to marry. Most women work. I know of three women who are supporting their stay-at-home husbands. People don't have to marry, and if they do, they can walk away. My experience is that most people need the close companionship of a loving spouse.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2017 01:15AM by summer.

My marriage is 15 years old and it's definitely NOT loveless. In fact, this morning my husband told me how much he loves me and I feel the same way about him. We just flat out adore each other.

I sure hope we aren't in the minority.

It is an actual condition that therapists diagnose.

in b 4 ~ " ¿ you need a place to stay tonight bae ? " ~

Thanks, Ziller. I’m in a safe place for now. *internet hug*

ziller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> in b 4 ~ " ¿ you need a place to stay tonight bae
> ? " ~


Ziller, you're a good person. It never occurred to me to ask.

Horndogs have empathy! (Of course, it's for themselves...)

Have you tried DBT or dialectical behavioral therapy? I highly recommend that.

Marriage is very hard work. No one has the power to change another person, but you can influence him. Take a greater interest in him. Can you send him love letters or letters of appreciation or gratitude weekly? What can you do to heal yourself and your relationship with him? It's a long journey so start building a support network to help you meet your needs.

I’ve never heard of it, but I’ll look into it! That’s one of the best things about thus board - a huge spectrum of knowledge and life experience. Thank you very much!!!!

DBT is often used with people who have borderline personality disorder. It helps people to be mindful of the present and tolerant of psychological pain rather than trying to escape it.

If you have problems with PTSD, it may be helpful for you to focus on your own issues before you try to influence your husband to change. My father had PTSD, so I know how bad it can be. I'm sorry you're dealing with it.

Tell him an angel with a flaming sword has threatened you with death unless you take a second husband.

Or

Make do with what you have. It’s not who you love, but how you love. My years with a hard woman were very happy because I gave her all the love I could. It’s like the Moody Blues song. When you stop and think about it, you won’t believe it’s true, that all the love you’ve been giving has all been meant for you.

Home is where you make it. The doorways to a thousand churches are inside you. The soul of God is inside you. So, life can only be a blessing. A wonderful gift waiting to be unwrapped. Let the haters hate. You have a life. It’s not a test, it’s an experience. How you feel about your experience is up to you. You can make it anything.

Babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tell him an angel with a flaming sword has
> threatened you with death unless you take a second
> husband.


What is it about the flaming sword?

I've heard five Mormons (that I remember; there may be more who have shared with me personally, never mind the hundreds of thousands who have talked to others but not to me about it) say that either an angel or Satan showed up with a flaming sword. Why would either an angel or Satan even need a flaming sword?

To answer the flaming sword question.

First: God placed an angel wit a flaming sword to guard the tree of eternal life in the garden of eden.

Second: Joseph Smith was reported to have said an angel with a flaming sword would kill him if he didn't introduce plural marriage into mormonism.

So....some folks say "a angel with a flaming sword " told me to do such n such. A mormon way of saying the devil made me do it.

Joseph Smith told his wife Emma that he really didn’t want a second wife, but he had put off God’s commandment and now an angel with a flaming sword was threatening him with death if he didn’t comply.

This was after Emma caught Joseph in the barn with his teenage Nanny, Fanny Alger, in what his friend called “a filthy, nasty affair”. In a brilliant moment move to get what he wanted, sex with or money from other women, he invented polygamy. He married at least 30 women in secret, in the temple where they were sworn to secrecy lest they be cut open and their guts spilled out.

Joseph liked the young ones. Helen Mar Kimball was only 14 when she married the prophet at his insistence. She later confided to her friend that if she’d known it was going to be sexual she never would have married him. Joseph also raised two foster daughters as his own and then married them when they were 17 and 19. Call me weird, but I can’t imagine screwing my adopted daughter. But Joseph liked the older ones too. If he fancied a married woman, he would send her husband on a mission and marry her in his secret clubhouse. I wish I were making this up. He married a few older women for their money.

One of the apostles, William Law, became disaffected when Joseph went after his wife. Gee, I wonder why. Law rounded up enough supporters to buy a printing press. The first and last issue of the Nauvoo Expositor blew the lid off of this freak show of sex and treachery. Joseph ordered the press destroyed, confirming in the public mind that it was all true. The rest is history.

Babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Joseph Smith told his wife Emma that he really
> didn’t want a second wife, but he had put off
> God’s commandment and now an angel with a
> flaming sword was threatening him with death if he
> didn’t comply.
>
> This was after Emma caught Joseph in the barn with
> his teenage Nanny, Fanny Alger, in what his friend
> called “a filthy, nasty affair”. In a
> brilliant moment move to get what he wanted, sex
> with or money from other women, he invented
> polygamy. He married at least 30 women in secret,
> in the temple where they were sworn to secrecy
> lest they be cut open and their guts spilled out.
>
>
> Joseph liked the young ones. Helen Mar Kimball was
> only 14 when she married the prophet at his
> insistence. She later confided to her friend that
> if she’d known it was going to be sexual she
> never would have married him. Joseph also raised
> two foster daughters as his own and then married
> them when they were 17 and 19. Call me weird, but
> I can’t imagine screwing my adopted daughter.
> But Joseph liked the older ones too. If he fancied
> a married woman, he would send her husband on a
> mission and marry her in his secret clubhouse. I
> wish I were making this up. He married a few older
> women for their money.
>
> One of the apostles, William Law, became
> disaffected when Joseph went after his wife. Gee,
> I wonder why. Law rounded up enough supporters to
> buy a printing press. The first and last issue of
> the Nauvoo Expositor blew the lid off of this
> freak show of sex and treachery. Joseph ordered
> the press destroyed, confirming in the public mind
> that it was all true. The rest is history.


Thanks for the explanations, Heartless and Babyloncansuckit.

Wow, between this and your first post, you have a lot going on.

Not trying to be mean or rude, but want to gather this stuff up to package the view I have.

You have a history of SA, which has left you suffering from PTSD. Add anxiety, depression, exhaustion. From your posts, I read serious depression, which I see as a subject you minimize.

You feel disabled by the PTSD, enough so that functioning among others long term is not possible right now. I read into this that you tend to avoid meeting new people, because you also describe yourself as an empath, "too sensitive" to environments of many unknown strangers. You tend to know fewer people, but on much deeper levels.

You live with your mother, a diabetic, and your grammy, because you are closing on a house to be nearer your husband.

You haven't found (or looked?) for your new residence, your posessions are in storage, your current living conditions uncomfortably cramped.

Your foreign nevermo husband's pilot job took him 2000 miles away. He's been decent and gentle with you, but not affectionate, and mostly emotionally unavailable. You're not sure if you love him, but are planning on moving anyway, because he is your financial support. I read into this this that you are not sure he loves you, either. Right now, the relationship is at least logistically symbiotic - he keeps his green card and you both benefit from a first-world income and lfestyle. I assume your health insurance is also linked to his green card, his job.

I don't know your church attendance status, but am guessing that you are or have been going less active, or the move into your mom's place has made non-attendance easier. Since you don't mention attendance as a stressor, I'm assuming you are not still dealing with TBM harrassment on a daily basis.

----

In your marriage, it seems obvious that the deeper, primary relationship you desire in a spouse is not available in your husband, but you are dependent on each other for lifestyle support. Though he is kind, he is not very interested in you, and you want to fulfill basic emotional and physical needs outside of the marriage.

It may not have occurred to you, but even if he were to agree to an "open marriage," infidelity could be evidence of your being no more than an "anchor wife," and/or be used to reduce or eliminate any divorce settlement. I hate to suggest it, but the latter may even be part of a plan, a reason you are ignored. Pay attention to actions, not words.

He is emotionally secure enough to become a pilot, move to a foreign country, meet and greet strangers daily. Being a pilot requires a well-ordered mind, one capable of simultaneously balancing many factors. He's no mental lightweight.

You, on the other hand, are emotionally vulnerable, and sort of describe yourself like a wallflower. You are intelligent, but feel emotionally crippled, and tend to conduct your life from that position.

How did you two meet and connect? Was he much more attentive, pre-marriage? Was he always inattentive? If so, had you planned on changing him, or if not, how did that proposal go?

I'm sorry to say that I sort of see you as a target of manipulation. An American marriage increased his income tenfold, and I don't think that any attempt to stray* would be received well either by him or the courts. I'm saying that you have boxed yourself in for now, and you need to play this out in a smart way, one that puts your long-term, best self interests to the fore.

I don't think that this necessarily makes him a "bad" or dangerous person, but one who knows how to get what he wants, long term. You need to do the same. Write it out, make a plan, refer to it often, make adjustments as needed.

*If he thought you might find someone else and drop him before the five year mark, that could get really ugly. For now, legally and logistically, I would stay in my box and find a good lawyer who can help you plan for your future.

Fiddlesticks, if only I could find a therapist half as insightful as you...

Honestly, your response leaves me feeling a little naked (not in the fun way...) and exposed.

You're right that I minimize the fact that I'm depressed. I spend a lot of time in bed, but part of that has to do with the cramped living conditions (i.e. there's no other place in the house for me to hang out except the living room and my grandma's taste in TV is awful).

I do avoid large group situations and meeting lots of new people at once because it is emotionally overwhelming. I don't have casual friends, but I do have four best friends who are incredibly dear to me (unfortunately all but one is out of state).

We are actively looking for a house. We put on offer on my dream home, but it failed the building inspection terribly. That was a deep, if short term, blow.

My husband is physically affectionate (not just horny), but you're right; we do lack a deeper compatibility emotionally. He's very rational, reasoned, scientific, etc and I'm a dreamer who likes to muse on philosophy, ethics, the paranormal, etc. There's some cross over, but not a ton.

As far as emotional availability, he is available to a point. He's British so there's a culture difference there as well.

I think he loves me (if not, he's a great actor), but he's not conveying the love in a way I need. I am love starved. Very badly.

I've been LA for years, so thank goodness TBM harassment isn't an issue. The elders actually helped us pack some...

We are very dependent on each other for our lifestyles (health insurance, his job, etc), especially because we support my disabled mom.

Thank you very, very much for making the point about an open marriage if we ever divorce. That had not crossed my mind. Adultery was never something I thought I'd contemplate, but there is a huge vacuum in my heart. It's not about sex, it's about feeling seen, cared for, and treasured.

Yup, I'm a wallflower. I like to make sure people are "safe" before I jump in. My business is ecommerce so there's minimal face to face interaction. It's not that I don't like people, I just find interactions potentially exhausting - if someone is happy, I'm so happy for them. If they're sad, I'm probably crying with them.

We met online. I shouldn't have been looking to date. That was a mistake. I wasn't ready, wasn't healed and had a lot of issues to work through, which I'm sure is painfully obvious.

He was more attentive pre-marriage. We both got a little lazy after we tied the knot, e.g. I stopped cooking dinner for him every night. Nothing major, we just got complacent, I guess. The real shift occurred with the job change, the financial strain and the commuting.

I've read and re-read your post a lot. I'll continue to mull it over and if anything else comes to mind, I'll mention it.

Thank you again so very much. Being heard and understood is truly a blessing.

Long distance commuting can put a great deal of strain on even the best relationship.

Keep in mind that even if you divorced, the alimony would not last forever (unless your relationship was of very long duration.) A friend of mine who has battled severe health issues was married for ten years. I think her alimony lasted for five years, but it was no more than ten at the most. Her access to his health insurance lasted for as long as she wished, however. This is where getting all the facts from a lawyer might be helpful to you.

I've seen a book recommended elsewhere that might be of interest to you. It talks about how partners might seek and express love differently from one another. It's called "The 5 Love Languages." There may be other books in the same vein. It could be that your husband is also feeling a lack of affection in a way that is meaningful to him.

https://www.amazon.com/Love-Languages-Secret-that-Lasts/dp/080241270X

Sometimes therapists just want to get through the hour that's why posting on here sometimes helps.

I agree that you should "get it in writing", so you will benefit legally from his income which you have increased 10-fold!

Many wives are now writing up legal agreements with their husband that they are putting through medical and law school, etc. Too often, a clever sociopath will marry a woman, just to have her put him through those years of school, only to divorce her when his education is completed.

This happened to me. He was a complete sociopath, and conned me into marrying him, by pretending to be something he was not. He was NOT a scholarship student at an ivy league university, his "scholarship" was bogus, he was a close relative to a GA and he was a returned missionary, but he had been immoral, a liar, and in jail for assault and battery. He had beaten his sister so badly, that social services removed her from their home. The thug was needed at home to do farm labor. This jailbird had been allowed to go on a mission, because his GA relative pulled some strings. He had stolen some money, which he was living on when he met me and rushed me into an engagement, after dating him only a few weeks. He was extremely jealous and possesive, and immediately scared away my other boyfriends. He was physically aggressive, trying to have sex with me, but I held onto my virginity, to be married in the temple. We were engaged only 4 months, before we were married, and most of those months were spend apart. I married him without meeting his family first, because his father was a mission president in a far-away country. Does this sound like YOUR courtship, Saddo?

This is typical behavior of a man wanting to use a woman. I had money and a good career, and I put him through BYU, for as long as I could, until I had to divorce him to save my life. He beat me almost every day. Unlike Saddo, there was no doubt in my mind that he didn't love me and that he was using me. I knew I didn't love him, after the first beating, but I stayed in the marriage, because it was the temple marriage I was raised to have, for eternity. Divorce was a disgrace that ruined me, in the eyes of my family and friends. No decent man would have me.
Finally, I chose to be alone forever, rather than married to a creep that I despised.

I was beaten and tortured as a child, by my older brother, who was the school bully, and my TBM parents didn't protect me. I already had PTSD from that, and after being married for 2 years to a wife-beater (he would cry, and pray, and say he loved me, and promise to change) made my PTSD worse. I'm fine, as long as I avoid large, violent men, and the Mormon cult.

You can get help with PTSD, like I did. I was able to carry on with my career, and live a successful, happy life.

Get psychiatric help for your PTSD, while you are married.
While you don't have to work, look for a good, interesting job that pleasant, and not stressful. Find a good, clean, healthy work environment, with windows, natural light, maybe outdoors, active if possible, working with nice people. Selling real estate was ideal for me. I got my license in just a few weeks, actually during final exams at the university. My money had run out, and I needed an instant income, until I could find a job using my Bachelor's degree. I was hired by a great company, and stayed in real estate until I retired. Flexible hours. I was my own boss. I didn't have to deal with bullies who triggered my PTSD--I would just refer them to someone else, and get a nice wad of cash for doing so. It was the best of all worlds.

You are young, and you will find your way. Some people would think, your marriage would be ideal, except I would be afraid of getting a STD, because I doubt your long-distance husband is being faithful to you. Use protection, please!

Let me speak a bit from the other side, because from what I see it sounds like what you are saying about your husband is similar to what my ex-wife said about me before we got divorced.

She complained I did not make her feel appreciated, or feel loved, or beautiful. It hurt to hear her say that because I did love her, greatly. I appreciated her, I adored her, I thought she was gorgeous. But clearly the message was not getting through to her. No matter what I tried, she never responded. From my side, it felt like she was pulling away, and the harder I tried, the faster she ran away. Ultimately she found at least part of what she was looking for with (several) other men. She became so unhappy that she even decided she no longer wanted to be a mother to our children. There may have been other issues at play, and she was a victim of rape as a young teenager (not from a family member, but a childhood friend of hers), so I cannot say for certain my inability to communicate my feeling to her/her inability to receive my communications about my feelings were the root of the issue, but they certainly played a big role.

After our divorce I did a lot of soul searching. One of the things I learned was that people express and feel love in some very different ways. If my way of expressing love does not mesh with my partners way of feeling love, or vice-versa, it can lead to feelings such as what you describe. As much as I loved my ex-wife, no matter how hard I tried to show it or express it, she did not feel it. We just did not mesh in that way. Yes, she ultimately cheated on me and decided to leave. But I view that as the easy explanation of why things went awry. I think much of the root cause was the way I show love, and the way she feels love, were incompatible with each other. Perhaps if we had recognized it earlier, we could have dealt with.

All the best to you.

It seems like you got the same lesson I did. Nobody can give you the love you deny yourself.

Women are just too good at internalizing. Very difficult to un-mess-up.

Sounds to me as though you're in a marriage of convenience for the both of you.

If that is sufficient reason to stay in it, then accept that as why you are still there.

For me, I would have trust issues with such a partner, but if he isn't abusive or neglectful of you physically then only you can make that judgment. From what you describe he does sound emotionally absent. What you want from him he doesn't seem capable of giving you.

It may be wise to hold off on having children if you don't see your marriage going the distance. Unless you are prepared to be a single mom.

Things may get better yet. My maternal grandparents struggled for the first 20 years of marriage. Grandma would have divorced if that was a plausible option for her. It wasn't.

The second 20 years made up for what the first half lacked. She was glad she stuck it out to get there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2017 09:16AM by Amyjo.

If I were a 31 year old, married to someone with a green card who I didn't love and who was "slow" or "dense" and I knew the marriage was destined to fail, I certainly wouldn't be willing to trade away 5 years of my youth to wait until he can become a citizen before I divorced him.

That's crazy.

If the marriage is broken, end it.

If it isn't broken, fix it.

It appears that your perspective is that it's broken and can't be fixed although to me it seems like there are some things you could try.

But to sit for 5 years until he won't be deported? Five years of my one life? My youth? I wouldn't do it.

I’ll answer the OP: We all have expectations of marriage. Some realistic. Some not. In my opinion, being with someone where expectations are similar creates the best relationship. It sounds to me that the two of you are worlds apart regarding expectations. It’s ok to admit that and try the fork in the path.

If you do go another way, try your best to do it without hostility. Because hostility adds an extra degree of pain that eventually has to be overcome.

Can you ‘dare’ to be candid with your husband and say it’s not working out as is? Can you be logical and not emotional in the conversation?

Before you head another way, try reading about boundaries. Two books that may help you are, ‘Too Good to Leave, too Bad to Stay’ and ‘The Four Agreements.’

Be well...

You had me at "He's not angry, he's just slow and dense." IMHO, I would say the marriage is over. You are only 31 and have a lot of years to be happy. Open marriage? I"m sure it worked somewhere at sometime for a few people but its a bad idea.

When you ask this question.