Homo sapiens no more have a life after death than does a chimpanzee, a ladybug, or a single celled organism. To believe so is a dumb as believing in the Book of Mormon, the Bible, and Santa Claus.

After having several months to mourn and think about the various aspects of it, by far the biggest sorrow is her having her life cut so short, tragically, in that she took her own life, which I feel partly responsible for. I would have given my life hers in the blink of an eye. It is all so heavy and unbelievable that I feel in some way I've become a somewhat jaded that I can go on somewhat normally.

Some people give me baloney stating, don't fret to much because her and I will be together again someday, which makes it hurt more.

Believe it or not there would be some comfort if the earth were destroyed in the near future in some cataclysmic event, say by an asteroid strike or nuclear war. Her death would be good in that she got to miss out on such a horrible experience.

Jack,

I wish there were something I or anyone else could say that might help. I suspect nothing any of us could possibly say will be of any real comfort. You're living my worst nightmare. Losing one of my kids is the worst thing that could ever happen to me. Having the child take her life might be the very worst form of losing a child. I'm just guessing here. I really have no idea.

I can see why you would want a cataclysmic event to occur. I would wish for the very same thing if I were in your place.

As far as life after death, not one of us can truly know. I hope so, but I don't know.

I'm assuming you have no other children. Is my assumption correct?

I wish I could help. Whether or not you have any belief in a deity, and whether or not there is or ever was a God, God did not want this to happen. It just happened. No just God would take anyone's child.

I'm so sorry and I wish I could help. I wish I had some idea of what to say. You're living everyone's worst-case scenario.

Scott



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2017 04:07AM by scmd.

'Believe it or not there would be some comfort if the earth were destroyed in the near future in some cataclysmic event, say by an asteroid strike or nuclear war. Her death would be good in that she got to miss out on such a horrible experience.'

Yeah the hell with everybody else and their kids.

not a mo no mo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Yeah the hell with everybody else and their kids.


Right now that's probably precisely as Jack Mormon feels. If my kid died (if it were my only kid or only surviving kid) I would at least for awhile be thinking "to hell with everyone else and their kids." I've (thank everything and everyone there is to thank) never lost a kid, but I suspect if I did, at least for a time, I would want everyone else to be as devastated as I was.

I can only imagine the pain anyone goes through in losing a child.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2017 03:46AM by scmd.

After my initial post I realized that by wishing for the earth to be destroyed, my love for my daughter is greater than my love for my wife. Which deep down I knew anyway. Sad.

I've always had a bit of nihilism in me, even before her death. In some ways Homo sapiens are like a cancer on earth. Millions of miles of roads, jet planes, internet web sites, a concert attended by a few hundred people to hear Beethoven, the earth would be a much more beautiful and peaceful place if humans were all gone tomorrow.

Jack Mormon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After my initial post I realized that by wishing
> for the earth to be destroyed, my love for my
> daughter is greater than my love for my wife.
> Which deep down I knew anyway. Sad.
>
>

Before my kids were born, I thought I loved my wife more than I could ever love anyone. Then the first kid was born.

I worship the ground my wife walks on and love my wife as much as I ever loved her, but my love for my babies is different. I didn't know such intense love was possible until they were born, My wife gets it because it's the same for her, exceptmaybe even stronger; it's biological for a mother in addition to being emotional. She thought she loved me more than anything or anyone, and she did until that first kid was born. It's nothing you did, and you can't do anything about it. It's how ordinary parents are wired.

Jack Mormon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After my initial post I realized that by wishing
> for the earth to be destroyed, my love for my
> daughter is greater than my love for my wife.
> Which deep down I knew anyway. Sad.
>
> I've always had a bit of nihilism in me, even
> before her death. In some ways Homo sapiens are
> like a cancer on earth. Millions of miles of
> roads, jet planes, internet web sites, a concert
> attended by a few hundred people to hear
> Beethoven, the earth would be a much more
> beautiful and peaceful place if humans were all
> gone tomorrow.

As someone who loves science, who loves mathematics, who loves to discover, I would say that you have to give meaning to your existence. I put value on human intelligence. I don't want an asteroid to destroy all humans.

It is trough science that human life expectancy has been extended to what used to be an average of 40 years (the magical number that appears a million times in the bible).

If you want to live longer than 80 years, then it will be science that will find the solution and nothing else.
If you want to experiment with consciousness, again, it will require a scientific approach.
If you want to transfer yourself to a computer (android), again, it is a matter of science and hard work.

Personally, I think there is no evidence for an afterlife or beforelife. Living forever would eventually get boring. How many times are you going to create a universe, create animals and human like lifeforms? I think most people don't know the meaning of forever.
The bible and all religions are selling an unrealistic fantasy of living forever in some fantasy land called heaven.

For an account by a father who lost 2 children to early deaths, and was able to finally come to find a new purpose in life: https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Cry-Pappa-Persistent-Heartbreaking/dp/1505426189/

Dear jack, words cannot express how sorry I am at your great loss. In the 80's, I lost a child to SIDS, and I had never felt such intense pain and sorrow. I imagine yours would be much worse as your child was older, and you knew him/her better. ((((Jackmormon)))
Be kind to yourself. Time does help to heal wounds. Feel free to keep us posted. We will give you love and support.

Wow, my friend. Really SO sorry. Got tears right now. No wisdom to offer. If I was near you I’d offer a hug.

hurt happens I find myself thinking about this quantum mystery: "Nothing matters while everything matters."

All the best to you and everyone whoever loved your daughter!

I believe in an afterlife. Having said that I also believe that today is all we're given along a time continuum for better or worse. We are living in eternity, here and now.

Whatever went so wrong for someone to take their own life is the guilt that is gifted to the survivors for the rest of ours.

You'll spend the rest of your life processing it, grieving her loss, and wondering why.

I don't believe there are any easy answers because life is too complex for that.

There is life beyond life. Of that I have some assurance that my loved ones who've passed on are on the other side of the veil between life and what comes after.

There's a physical death. And there is a spiritual death. They are not the same.

Don't ever stop loving or cherishing the memories you've shared with your girl. That is maybe the only consolation I can think of to help a grieving parent come to terms - is remembering what you shared and the extreme love you have for your child. That never dies.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2017 09:26AM by Amyjo.

As of tomorrow, 12/30, it will be 55 years since I lost my father to a now-survivable disease.

As of January 4, it will be 4 years since I lost my best friend.

Winter sucks.

Those anniversaries of a loved one's death are known as "Yahrzeits" in Judaism. It's a part of the celebration of their lives to honor them on such occasions, for the gift of having been a part of their lives.

55 years is a long time to go after losing your father. You were very young when you lost him. So sorry for your loss.

I lost both parents 17 years ago, two months apart. Each went unexpectedly. I was around 40 then, but nothing prepared me for their loss. Some months later I came across a book in a bookstore called "Mid-life Orphans." It was just what I needed to read at the time to help me come to terms with the profundity of losing my parents at almost the same time.

This is an excellent book, I read it after my Mom died. My Dad had been dead 30 years at that point. The one thing that stood out for me was that I was in a much better place to lose a parent at 53 than I had been at 23. Coming up on 40 for my Dad in the spring, I am better able to appreciate that living with cancer was not what I would have wanted for him. At 23 I just wanted him alive.

I do hope there is an afterlife though, I want a conversation with the old man about why he would not let me learn to type. No daughter of his was going to type. I took Physics. What do I do for a living? Type code all freaking day long as a systems manager.

I'm sorry that your beloved daughter died. I imagine that your pain will be raw for a very long time.

I personally found belief in an afterlife to be comforting after my mom died. I took a lot of comfort in reading ADC literature (after death communication.) That sustained me for the first few years when my mother's passing was the most painful.

I guess my question to you is, where do you expect to find your comfort? Because it is not realistic to think that you can go without. We all have to find ways to cope.

Just because JS was a liar and fraud does not mean there is no after life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You want to find out for yourself???

1. If you want to see your past lives (meaning you had many lives and continue to live). Pay for a hypnotherapist that does past live regressions.

2. If you want to communicate with the dead pay for a medium.

This is not 'rocket science' but I can assure you what you will get will not be 'scientific evidence' but 'evidence' none the less.

If you do go either route --- make sure you have a pretty clear agreement that you will get something that will give you some level of agreed to support.

You can also, study the 'millions' of near death experiences and others that support the after life! Many stories are posted on line.

Life will in fact move on ------ you need to find how you want to proceed and do so!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2017 11:11AM by spiritist.

We lost my Dad in July. One of the things which has most annoyed my Mom, me, my brother and sister have been such comments as, "Oh, I know he's watching over you." "He's in a better place." "You'll see him again."

I want to say, "You know no such thing. Shut up!" It's so annoying and makes you feel worse.

I hate the arrogance of people who think they know the truth. I don't care what they believe. They can believe whatever they like. Someone else's beliefs don't affect me, as long as they keep it to themselves.

But the authority of 'knowing' drives me nuts.

One day I couldn't get my Dad singing "The Impossible Dream" out of my head and it was making me feel really depressed at work.

A TBM friend starting saying, "Just tell him, "Daddy, I know you're trying to let me know you're there, but right now I'm at work and you need to just pull away a bit until I get home again."

I said, "Stop it."

She kept repeating it. "No, seriously. Just tell him, "Dad ..."

I just kept saying, "Stop it!" She didn't get the hint and kept at it.

I finally ended up yelling at her, "Stop it! He's DEAD!!"

Then she got mad at me and decided we should change the subject. Too late for that. She'd already worked me up into a state of anger. I hate that.

I'm very sorry for your loss. I can't even imagine such a loss. I had a grandmother who committed suicide, but that's not the same thing at all.

As far as some of you wishing the rest of us off the planet goes, I don't have the greatest life, but it's mine and it's the only one I've got and I'd like to hang onto it, thanks.

When my 2-year-old son was killed, one of the local ward bishopric authorities said that to me: "Don't worry, he's OK. He's in a better place."

I blew up that that. I said, "If you think he's in such a great place, why don't YOU go there!"

Sometimes it's satisfying to be able to say something without filters...

ragnar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When my 2-year-old son was killed, one of the
> local ward bishopric authorities said that to me:
> "Don't worry, he's OK. He's in a better place."
>
> I blew up that that. I said, "If you think he's in
> such a great place, why don't YOU go there!"
>
> Sometimes it's satisfying to be able to say
> something without filters...

That was a perfect response to the bishop, Ragnar.

A PLACE FOR MOTHER Joanne Seltzer

Platitudes

Mother is with God.
Mother is at rest.
Mother is with Dad.

Mother was ready to go.
Mother has paid her dues.
Mother is still with us.

Mother loved life.
Mother lived a full life.

Time heals all wounds.

You will mourn Mother
the rest of your life.

Fuck me. I’m so sorry. (((((Hugs bro)))))

I don't have the words to help make this better. All I can say is I'm sorry for your loss and deep personal pain.

I am faced with almost the same question right now in my life - is there an afterlife?

A couple of months ago I was diagnosed with what I was told was an aggressive form of non-Hodgkins lymphoma. I struggled for about a week about what this would mean for me. Then I accepted it.

At work a month or so later, one of my colleagues said that he thought I was taking this news and my condition remarkably well and that it didn't seem to be affecting me much (I suppose he expected me to be constantly devastated).

During that week after the diagnosis, I had developed a mindset that worked for me. I decided that there were two possibilities: 1) that there is an afterlife, or 2) there is no afterlife.

I decided that both possibilities would work for me.

1) If there is an afterlife, that would mean that I would be reunited with my two precious little children who died years ago. If that would be the case, I would be overjoyed beyond description.

2) If there is NO afterlife, then that would mean that the grief and emotional pain that I experience each and every day since the death of my children would finally end - the suffering would finally stop.

I'm a winner either way, and perhaps my cancer is a means by which I will receive an answer to this perplexing question sooner rather than later.

((((hugs, ragnar))))

I'm facing down my own mortality as I write this pending medical evaluations and upcoming surgery/ies etc.

I'm striving for the same outlook as you have found. That I am able to make peace with whatever the eventuality.

I wrote a review on amazon as "Daisy1."

Today, I am trying to get through a day that is always sad for me. I'm not sure if it was easier when I was working.

Fifty-five years ago today, my beloved father died at home of a disease that is now survivable, with dialysis and/or a transplant. He was only 42. He was a terrific guy, highly regarded both in our neighborhood, and at work. There was standing-room-only at his funeral.

Before the funeral, we were "viewing" him in a room at the undertaker's. Mother had provided the most hideous suit in his wardrobe - a singularly ugly brown number that she had picked out. She glared daggers at me and snarled that there would be no tears at the funeral, "because Daddy would be SO ashamed of you!" I remember thinking that the undertaker should not have used an orange-based makeup on him, because Dad's normal coloring had been rosy, but what did I know? Maybe "Undertaker Orange" was all they had.

So I turned off my emotions and felt nothing, for months.

Mother drowned her own grief in alcohol. She had never been easy to live with, but pickled in alcohol, she was even worse.

In the months after his death, I could not understand why she was so horrible to me. (Not that she had ever been the "warm-fuzzy" type.) Then I had a sudden insight. I said to her, as we were doing dishes, "I get it. You're angry at me because Daddy died, but I didn't."

Already swaying in an alcohol-induced buzz, she snarled, "D@mn right!"

Try living with THAT when you are an under-age teen. She took out her rage on me daily, for the crime of having outlived my father, until I was able to escape to an out-of town university. Sometimes, I chose to stay for summer classes. One in particular, I remember: two classes in Spanish literature (Golden-Age stuff other than the Quixote) and Modern Mexican Novels. And I think there was an English Lit class, too.

In those days, skin cancer wasn't a "thing" yet, so we did a lot of reading and studying alongside the campus pool, adjacent to Sunset Blvd. When we got too warm, we would dive in, swim a few laps, crawl back out and try not to drip into our textbooks.

Three Lit classes and the Sunset Pool were so much nicer than having to spend time with my mother. She died 29 1/2 years, to the day, after my Dad. Her funeral was a sad, dreary little affair. The dozen or so attendees, including my best friend and her mother, were neighbors or longtime family friends who were there more for me than because of their fondness for her.

I don't know or particularly care about an afterlife. There are some family members I would enjoy seeing again, if possible, and most certainly, my best friend. I have missed my BFF terribly.

But hey - if the curtain just falls and the show is over, that's OK too.

Hugs to you, Ragnar.

It is Ragnar who authored that book?

I look forward to reading it.

"Jack," your post is very clear. When people try to dissuade you from your grief by telling you there is indeed an after life, they only add salt to your wound because now you have your misery plus you know they simply do not understand your profound loss.
Take it one day at a time. If you can find a point in living through the next few hours, that can be as good as it gets. Reduce your expectations of life to zero and you may occasionally be pleasantly surprised.
I know you absolutely didn't mean any harm to anyone when you expressed a whimsical desire for a cataclysmic end. You're just trying to tell us how much pain you are in.
Let go of the self blame. It won't save her. You deserve love now, not guilt.
It is true that we should bear one another's burdens and that by doing so, they become lighter. Sending love to you. You have my deepest sympathy.

(((((hugs)))))))

I hope that some sort of solace comes to you, somewhere, sometime.

My condolences.

To say 'things will get less painful as time passes' is, as it would appear, the only hope when devastation inters one's life.

Thanks for sharing your grief with us--you couldn't get a more empathetic group, especially from those among us who have suffered likewise.

Best Wishes.
P

My heartfelt feelings for you for love and healing! The love you have for your daughter will always be there in your heart. (((Hugs))).

I can't even imagine your grief. If that had happened to me I've

always thought I'd just throw myself into the open grave.

It would be an unbearable sorrow like an open wound that

never heal.

My cousin died a sudden death when he had just turned 16. My aunt

never cried and I'm sure its because she believed she would see

him in heaven.

My heart goes out to you . I'm so sorry

saucie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can't even imagine your grief. If that had
> happened to me I've
>
> always thought I'd just throw myself into the open
> grave.
>
> It would be an unbearable sorrow like an open
> wound that
>
> never heal.
>


Yes, that!

So horribly sorry.

So very, very sorry for the loss of your daughter.

Just wanted to share that I attended a group made up of others who had losses which ended up being a profound help to me. At first I did not want to attend, but finally, out of desperation, gave it a try. No one was forced to talk if they did not choose to, and that was a saving grace for me. Eventually I joined in, but I just sat and listened for many meetings.

We all had different stories, but were tied by our sorrow, often our guilt, and definitely our need to realize that we were imperfect human beings who, of course, made mistakes yet did good things too.

I was finally able to write letters to those I had lost describing my feelings and thoughts.

Sending hugs and love your way.

I'm so sorry, JM.

I can't imagine any greater pain than what your daughter went through and what you are experiencing now.

You have my sincerest best wishes as you attempt to process this tragedy.

LW

Today on the way home from work, as it has who knows how many times in the last few months, the main purpose of my life no longer exists. Yes, I have considered taking my life, but the main reason (only reason) I don't is that it would disrespect my daughter.

Jack Mormon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Today on the way home from work, as it has who
> knows how many times in the last few months, the
> main purpose of my life no longer exists. Yes, I
> have considered taking my life, but the main
> reason (only reason) I don't is that it would
> disrespect my daughter.


That's a good way to look at the situation.

Again, I wish there were something I could say or do that would actually help. I'm so sorry.

An afterlife, as something to think about, doesn't necessarily make things any better.

It doesn't change whatever bad thing happened. It may or may not be "better" than the "current" life, or this judgment may differ from person to person. It may be such a huge place that you can't assume that you will meet your loved ones again.

Why should the rules of an afterlife be any better than here, or why would they be?

"Why should the rules of an afterlife be any better than here, or why would they be?"

Because that would be an eternal hell, and we don't like to think of such a possibility.

xxMMMooo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> An afterlife, as something to think about, doesn't
> necessarily make things any better.
>
> It doesn't change whatever bad thing happened. It
> may or may not be "better" than the "current"
> life, or this judgment may differ from person to
> person. It may be such a huge place that you
> can't assume that you will meet your loved ones
> again.
>
> Why should the rules of an afterlife be any better
> than here, or why would they be?
________________________________________________

The more I study what I believe the after life will be like the more I come to your same concern. I believe that is why we reincarnate periodically ----- we get bored here and we get bored there to some extent. I believe there are other positives but that is off topic.

If we are 'eternal beings' it is tough to be satisfied ---- we have plenty of time on our hands!

In spirit we have no pain, sickness, cold, heat, threats, etc. etc. and definitely will meet up again with loved ones.

However, in spirit can we cannot enjoy the warmth of a fire, or the cool breeze of spring or jumping in a lake, or frosty air of winter, etc. etc.??

I've been reading a lot of books on death, depression, etc. the last couple of years ... here's a couple of interesting ones you might want to check out if you get a chance. (Whoever's interested in the topic that is.)


Kay Jamison "An Unquiet Mind" and "Touched With Fire" (deal with bipolarity, depression and suicide, and discusses studies showing how these conditions are highly inheritable and also prevalent in artistic temperaments)

Joan Didion "Year of Magical Thinking"; Joyce Carol Oates "Widow's Story" (these deal with the sudden loss of a spouse rather than a child but they are well thought out.)

I believe in an afterlife, but I don't know any more than anyone else does about what it's going to be like.

David O. McKay told me, when I was a little girl, that no one has ever died and gone to heaven, then come back to tell all about it. He included Joseph Smith and the Mormon Prophets in this--NO ONE knows what heaven is going to be like.

I can, using my life experiences and my average intelligence and my small knowledge of various religions, promise you that the hereafter is NOT what the Mormons describe. JS is no way involved in it. If there is a heaven created by God, where God lives and rules, there is most likely no hierarchy or social stratification, no racial discrimination, no misuse of wealth or power, etc. Love, and Peace and Truth would rule. Most likely time would be different. Heaven is far away, separated by billions of light-years, making it inaccessible, or it could be the atoms in the air we breathe.

Your vision of a "hereafter" or a "not-hereafter" belongs to YOU and your daughter. Her pain is over, and you need the memory of her to help you get through your own pain, now.

You said it yourself, Jack Mormon, that the "respect" for your daughter influences you, still. Her memories live on in you. You are part of each other. Maybe the "hereafter" is closer then we know.

Whatever you choose to believe--I can tell you the Truth--your daughter's suicide was NOT your fault! Perhaps you could see a therapist, who could explain exactly what goes on inside of a suicidal mind, and how you are not to blame, and how you can deal with your anguish and sorrow.

Mormonism was never a good answer, anyway. It only made every situation worse, if you know what I mean.

(((hugs)))

I am sad for your loss.

I just read this last night:

"One of the most amazing things about elephants mourning in the wild is their ability to grieve hard, but then truly, unequivocally, let go. Humans can't seem to do that. I've always thought it's because of religion. We expect to see our loved ones again in the next life, whatever that might be. Elephants don't have that hope, only the memories of THIS life. Maybe that's why it is easier for them to move on."

I've always felt that belief in an afterlife is a form of denial and prolongs our suffering.

I don’t know how you go on. I hope you do. Back in my TBM days I was comfortably numb. But now, I don’t know if I could survive such a thing.

Mentally, I’ve been around the block. I had to, after discovering the awful truth about Mormonism. It blew me apart and I needed psychedelics to put myself back together. That kind of therapy is tough. I don’t know where the mind is, but I know for sure it’s not in the brain. It’s not in time. It’s beyond. Once I was looking at photos of my kids and saw my grandparents faces superimposed on theirs. We are our ancestors.

Somewhere along the line, we forgot the specialness of being. That the now is really where it’s at. The church sold us an illusion. Heaven is on Earth, for everyone, because the soul of God is inside all of us. That’s what holds all of this together. The truth is that love never dies. Not hers, not yours. You are forever.

I think we're getting a lot of inspiring anecdotes about loss of a parent or spouse but in truth very few people have the specific experience of having lost a child and even more specifically through suicide.

Every grief is a little bit different and losing a parent is different from losing a child (also, there's a difference between losing a parent in childhood versus losing one or both in adulthood.)

I don't know if it's been asked before, but was your (OP's) child a minor or an adult at the time of the suicide?

I lost two cousins and a middle-aged uncle to suicide (or presumed suicide) many years ago, at different times. Again not the same as losing one's own offspring.

Thanks for all the condolences and suggestions.

Upon reading about the students murdered at Virginia Tech several years ago, I remember that one victim was an only child, a female. I finally found this post by her parents, unfortunately it's mostly God & Jesus, God & Jesus, blah blah blah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_elbTBHBpJ8

Take care you all.

Yes it can help to read/view/listen to the experiences of other people who have gone through similar situations paralleling your own.

I recommend taking a look at "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor Frankl. It's quite a classic and is readily available in various cheap editions or probably in the library. Frankl was a survivor of multiple concentration camps during WW2, and a psychologist, and his insights are hugely valuable for people who have suffered any great pain in life.

As bad as losing a child is, some of the experiences described int he book are really horrendous. The amazement is that this man was not only able to survive (emotionally, psychologically) afterward but even to go back to his career and write books and try to help others.

I'm very sorry for your loss.

It's the "comfort" aspect that motivates some people to hold such beliefs.

Personally, I couldn't get any "comfort" from a belief like that. I've lost people I love (though not a child, I can barely begin to imagine how hard that would be). I know they're gone, and that there is essentially no chance I'll ever see them again. I personally think dealing with that reality, while difficult, is ultimately more productive for our own lives than NOT dealing with that reality -- like dismissing it with some comforting fiction.

I cherish the time I got to spend with people I've loved. I keep the memories of the time spent with them, and bring those memories up when I miss them the most. All any of us, ultimately, leave behind after our lives (no matter how long or short) are the memories of us in other people who continue to live. I hope your memories of your child are good ones.

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
All any of us, ultimately, leave behind
> after our lives (no matter how long or short) are
> the memories of us in other people who continue to
> live.

“To live in hearts we leave behind, is not to die.”

-- Thomas Campbell

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I know they're gone, and
> that there is essentially no chance I'll ever see
> them again. I personally think dealing with that
> reality, while difficult, is ultimately more
> productive for our own lives than NOT dealing with
> that reality -- like dismissing it with some
> comforting fiction.
>
___________________________________________________

Interesting you 'know' they're 'gone' and 'no chance I'll ever see them again' ...... (sure sounds like you have a very specific 'knowing' in this which is certainly a 'god-thing' to me!

When in another 'atheist' thread this morning you claimed: And all atheism is, is a lack of belief in claimed god-things.

Why all this BS --- can't you keep the your 'story' consistent??????

Just saying!!!!!

spiritist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know they're gone, and
> > that there is essentially no chance I'll ever
> see
> > them again.

> Interesting you 'know' they're 'gone' and 'no
> chance I'll ever see them again' ...... (sure
> sounds like you have a very specific 'knowing' in
> this which is certainly a 'god-thing' to me!

Try reading. Of course I know they're gone -- they are. It's an observed fact.
And I put "essentially no chance" -- why did you cut the 'essentially' part out of the quote above? That's not very honest.

There's no evidence to suggest I'll ever see them again, but I left open the possibility (remote and implausible though it is).

> When in another 'atheist' thread this morning you
> claimed: And all atheism is, is a lack of belief
> in claimed god-things.

It is. This has zero to do with atheism, and everything to do with a reasonable and rational examination of the evidence available to us. There is no evidence anybody ever sees anybody again (once again, your anecdotal, unverifiable claims aren't evidence).

> Why all this BS --- can't you keep the your
> 'story' consistent??????

Try reading. And honestly quoting, instead of quote-mining.

> Just saying!!!!!

Just indicating that you're not being honest about what I said.

Meanwhile everyone else on the thread is giving support and understanding which is at the heart of the matter.

When my father died my mother showed the stoic Mormon strength she felt was expected of her. I never saw her cry. I only saw resolve and a *show* of acceptance that Dad was not dead but just had gone on ahead of her. The rest of us were teary and deeply sad as she wore here testimony proudly that this was just a passage and part of God's plan, so why weep?

Several months later she confessed to me that it finally hit her. She said she spent nearly a whole day wandering the house screaming and crying, angry at everyone and everything. Furious that Dad had left her.

You can mask it all you want but the reality of the loss is still there and still must be processed. The idea of an afterlife can buy you some time if you need it I suppose. My last loss I just cried and screamed and sobbed. That is an expression of love, deep love. It is not to be dismissed as weakness.

I cannot even imagine the pain of losing any child, let alone your only one. My heart goes out to you. I hope you find your way to heal. Best to you.

My Favorite sister, the one I was closest to, killed herself in September.

The pain will be with me forever.

The only comfort I have is the knowledge that suicide is what she definitely wanted, and if I could magically bring her back to life, she would simply kill herself again.

She didn't believe in an afterlife. As it happens, I do.

We had many long, long discussions about if it was okay to kill yourself (I didn't think it was, but she thought it was okay if you were in huge pain, which she thought she was.)

I'm not going to give you any words, because there aren't any words.

Just know that you're not alone.

Lois

Jack Mormon,
Would it help you or hurt you more to tell us about her? Because you can tell us all about her here. And please tell us more about yourself.

I'm so very sorry for your loss. Your pain is palpable. I wish there was something that could be done or said to relieve the suffering.

I’m so sorry for your loss. I lost my 18 year old daughter to suicide in ‘06. How my heart hurts for you.

Having suffered a similar loss in 2003, I know that we can do no more than surround you, bear witness to your devastation, and try to comfort you as your knees buckle.

We are here, we are real people, and most of us would give much to stand next to you, be there with you as you struggle through each hour.

I also thought of the cement pillars along the highway, how simple it would be. There was no single reason I chose to survive, but I think the strongest was that I was too angry, too stubborn to allow the illness that took her to claim me as a victim also. I don't think I thought of it as disrespect to her at the time, but I agree now that you are correct. It would have been the ultimate insult.

Having her ripped so unfairly, so wrongly, from my life was a constant stream of self-blame, unrimitting flux of rage, pain and the vacuum the illness left behind. There was no note, no reason, nothing but the wish that I had that moment to live over, to be there, to stop her.

With the passage of time, reason slowly re-awakened in my brain, and I realized that most importantly, whatever my loss, her suffering was no more, and it had been her choice to end her constant pain, pain I could not take from her. That's difficult to balance against all the possibility, all the hope I had for her life, but those visions were not the reality of her life. I also realized that even if I had a do-over, would I, for my own selfish reasons, ask her to stay, knowing that her pain brought my comfort? That was such a difficult question, because there still lives in me the illusion that I could - would - somehow, find a "solution" to her pain.

She inadvertently had found one for me. For the rest of my life, I will carry the pain. I told her many times that I would take it from her if I could, and though I had no hand in her choice, she unintentionally made a way to let me carry it. I don't think that she knew what she was doing, but it was done none the less.

And I will. I will carry this. I will get my butt up every day, and stand witness to the beauty of her, the joy I found in her, and the gravity of her loss. The price has been very high, but I now see it as a cost I will bear, because she chose it. Over the years, my muscles have developed.

I have never written it out like this, so I apologize for any clumsiness. I wanted to share the burden we each carry, for our beloved children.

My heart is with you.

and others who have suffered similar pain.