For all of the exmos who still believe in Jesus and/or God - spoiler alert - it's all bullshit. The Bible is debunked just as easily as the BoM. I don't understand how you can say you've left the mormon church because of it's inconsistencies, lies, justifications, etc because you are a reasonable thinking person and yet you still believe in jesus, god, etc. If you're a reasonable thinking person with access to the internet, etc, keep doing a little more research.

Recovery is a journey exploring all options.There is no one true way.

Actually, there is one true way. It's called reality.

Arguments over the existence or nonexistence of god are ridiculously futile. Your opinion does not matter. The opinion of Carl Sagan doesn't matter. If there is a god, then there IS a god. If there is no god, then there IS no god. It's that simple. Arguments have no effect on the reality. Your belief or lack of belief is irrelevant. And it makes no difference. Your opinions and belief can not alter the truth. If there is a god, would the world be different than a world without a god? We would remain subject to the same occurrences and calamities either way while the universe looks on with pitiless indifference. And why should I care as long as there is a Kentucky Fried Chicken down the street?

I find comfort in the studies that have shown the praying for a favorable outcome to a problem and hoping for a favorable outcome to a problem have the same rate of resolution.

It's right up there with flipping a coin: 50/50.

I have come to understand that there are those who enjoy butting their head against the stump, and are getting something out of it but so glad I gave it all up.

For me it is so freeing and fun to let go of all of it.

Life just gets better and better.

I agree with your main point.

However, whatever gets somebody through the day (and "recovered") is just fine, as long as they don't push it on me.

Mormonism is destructive enough that darn near anything is "better." Even if not "best."

I like to believe, especially in Jesus Christ. I’m an educated, reasonable, capable person. And I believe. :D

Me too! The first time I've enjoyed saying that in at least three months!!

If ya read the bible the way ya read the BoM, yep, you are right.

If ya understand how the various books and letters that make up the Tanakh and the New Testament were written (most were not to be taken literally, BTW), there is plenty of room for being ok living in "mystery" (things not understood).

Mormonism has one thinking in black and white terms, which is considered to be a cognitive distortion of viewing things.

So, don't compare all belief with how Mormonism programs one to think.

From what I saw of "dyed in the wool Catholics" in Mexico, during my mission, their religion was no more than writing on the wall that they could ignore at their pleasure, but return to gaze upon when the time was ripe.

Now this was back in the mid-1960s, so things can only have become more liberal!

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From what I saw of "dyed in the wool Catholics" in
> Mexico, during my mission, their religion was no
> more than writing on the wall that they could
> ignore at their pleasure, but return to gaze upon
> when the time was ripe.
>
> Now this was back in the mid-1960s, so things can
> only have become more liberal!

Most "dyed in the wool Catholics" have a more folksy approach to their faith, I think it's why they love Francis so much, who is very comfortable with that. Far from the hard core theologians that roam the Holy See. Or popes of the past.

The whole Coke Versus Pepsi was lost on me because I gave up the sugary drinks altogether. Everything tastes better without sugar or corn syrup because you taste the real flavors again of everything.

I strongly disbelieve in God and Jesus. But I also recognize that I'm not in a position to declare with absolute certainty that there is no God. What I do know is that can't believe in the God presented in the Bible/B of M.

As far as telling other people that they need to study more if they don't reach the same conclusion as you . . . why do they need to come to the same conclusion as you? It reminds of the admonitions that if you don't get a testimony, you need to study and pray more until you get the 'right' answer. I think that the MOST important process of leaving the church is that people need to learn to trust their OWN conclusions, and think for themselves.

People will come to different conclusions about God.

My belief is that even reasonable, thinking persons often aren't convinced by facts when those facts challenge dearly held beliefs, or if they fear the consequences of questioning them. The human mind has an incredible ability to hold two or more contradictory ideas as true, or to suppress or discredit ideas that are uncomfortable or threatening. What could be more dangerous than risking damnation because you reject Jesus/God?

I could be wrong, but I suspect that the human mind has some serious bugs in it. The thinking brain can conflict with trained emotional reactions (like fears or other strong emotional reactions) so that even the most rational-seeming person can believe absolutely ridiculous things, if required for social or physical survival (to preserve family relationships, positions of power, jobs, social standing, eternal life).

imaworkinonit Wrote:
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>
> I could be wrong, but I suspect that the human
> mind has some serious bugs in it. The thinking
> brain can conflict with trained emotional
> reactions (like fears or other strong emotional
> reactions) so that even the most rational-seeming
> person can believe absolutely ridiculous things,
> if required for social or physical survival (to
> preserve family relationships, positions of power,
> jobs, social standing, eternal life).


The human brain is quite flawed for sure. And for people who tend to have a harder time "thinking" but rather more of emotional responders, it's even harder

I agree wholeheartedly and have said it several times in other places. If someone applies the same critical analysis on Christianity/Islam/Judaism, or most other religions, as they do on Mormonism, they will come to the same conclusion about those religions as they do about Mormonism.

Patience, please!

Some of us need to take one step at a time. Finding out that your life-long, BIC religion is a hoax cult, and the holy prophets are all liars, and that it's all about money--is like having the rug pulled out from under you.

It's hard enough to think about my "famous" Mormon ancestors, that I was taught to be proud of, were polygamists and bullies. It's hard enough to grasp the idea that my own trusted parents and grandparents LIED to me. It's hard enough to work through the brainwashing and manipulations that have guided my life. It's hard enough to be accused of being "offended, lazy, and wanting to sin". It's hard enough to be shunned by all--ALL--of the Mormon friends, who weren't our friends in the first place.

I made the conscious decision that I would work my way out of Mormonism--and free my children, also--first, and cope with all of that garbage. Then, when I was ready, I would tackle the questions of the existence of God and Christ, and the truthfulness of The Bible.

I'm working through that at a slower pace, but I'm believing less and less, as I go along.

Besides, continuing to worship Christ and God, has kept some credibility in my life. I can focus on the similarities of my beliefs and my Mormon family's beliefs, and not the differences. I mean, it makes the transition easier for my family to handle. My children and I are at least not "God-less"

If you're just looking for a fun conversation over some beers with the guys, party on, dude.

If you've actually resolved some of the unanswered ultimate questions that arise from a close examination of the universe, life, existence of matter, and the creation, storage, transmission and duplication of information, please let us know where we can buy your book.

Tall Man, Short Hair Wrote:
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> If you've actually resolved some of the unanswered
> ultimate questions that arise from a close
> examination of the universe, life, existence of
> matter, and the creation, storage, transmission
> and duplication of information, please let us know
> where we can buy your book.

No religion provides answers to those questions. Well, ok, many CLAIM to provide answers, but they don't -- since their claimed answers have zero supporting evidence.

So...what's your point? That in place of "we don't know the answers," which is honest, we should make stuff up (like religions do), and just "believe" it?

That hardly seems reasonable. Or helpful in any way.

And it doesn't challenge the OP's premise one bit. :)

To essentially call theism "bullshit" and claim their adherents are ignorant while having no specific contrary evidence to the same basic questions engaged by that belief system is a self-defeating argument. This is the flaw that gets a huge pass with much of what now passes for "positive atheism."

No reasonable person can say, "I have no idea how all this stuff that makes reality came into existence, but I know that your ideas about it are wrong." The exact weakness he claims for rejecting theism is the weakness that cripples his own illusion of superior knowledge.

One of the strengths of theistic arguments is that there simply is no example ever seen of cogent information springing forth from chaos, spontaneous storage of the data that frames this information (in a reliably readable form), transmitting this data accurately, and then the spontaneous emergence of a system that can not only read the information, but duplicate it with a great level of accuracy. There's no place in human experience where this is seen outside the scope of intelligent guidance. But theism is bullshit.

If you refuse to engage this on a philosophical level, it would be better to retreat to the silly Flying Spaghetti Monster arguments. At least those don't take themselves seriously.

Tall Man, Short Hair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To essentially call theism "bullshit" and claim
> their adherents are ignorant while having no
> specific contrary evidence to the same basic
> questions engaged by that belief system is a
> self-defeating argument. This is the flaw that
> gets a huge pass with much of what now passes for
> "positive atheism."

Who are you talking about?
I didn't call anything "bullshit."
And I didn't claim anybody was ignorant.

> No reasonable person can say, "I have no idea how
> all this stuff that makes reality came into
> existence, but I know that your ideas about it are
> wrong."

Well, I'd disagree with your premise in the first place (since ideas that contradict demonstrated facts CAN be demonstrably wrong even if we have no idea what the actual answer is).

And, again, I didn't say "your ideas about it are wrong."
I said they make stuff up.
Which they do.
And I said their claims have zero supporting evidence.
Which they do.

> The exact weakness he claims for
> rejecting theism is the weakness that cripples his
> own illusion of superior knowledge.

There was no assertion of "superior knowledge" above.
In fact, quite the opposite -- I advocated for honest admission of ignorance (when that's actually the case), rather than "belief" in claims without a shred of supporting evidence.

> One of the strengths of theistic arguments is that
> there simply is no example ever seen of cogent
> information springing forth from chaos...

Actually, there are such examples.
And even if there weren't, that wouldn't give made-up "arguments" without a shred of evidence any "strength."

You're trying to claim that because we don't know something, unverifiable claims have "strength" by default.
That's just silly.

> If you refuse to engage this on a philosophical
> level, it would be better to retreat to the silly
> Flying Spaghetti Monster arguments. At least those
> don't take themselves seriously.


How about you not make up things I didn't say.
How about you address what I DID say, without resorting to ad-hominems, straw-men, and fallacies?
Or is that too much to ask?

(btw, I have never ever used an "FSM" argument, either)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2018 04:19PM by ificouldhietokolob.

I think we're talking across each other. It looked to me you were critiquing my response to the OP, so I demonstrated how my response to the OP was appropriate.

You cannot claim (as the OP does) that a belief in a god is "bullshit" and some amount of study will prove this when that's a patently false assumption. The belief that you know for a fact there is no god carries the exact same weight as "I know the church is true." There's just no data to support it.

I'm not asserting, "There's no answer to these questions, therefore, God." I am arguing there's a long history of reasoned philosophical assertion that the only real-world examples of complex systems like that we see in nature are those created by some intelligent interaction. This is certainly arguable (and likely will be for eons), but it's a philosophical and existential assertion that you just can't study away.

I correctly suggested to the OP that the claim some amount of study will result in certain atheism is best suggested to buddies at a bar after a few beers. It's the domain of an ideologue, not an academic.

I can't deny or prove the existence of "god".

Radio waves existed before man was able to detect them, so maybe we are not yet able to detect a Sky Daddy scientifically; maybe "God" is a distant memory of a visit to Earth by space aliens, maybe (probably) "God" is a construct for the unexplainable questions early humans had about death, floods, and volcanoes.

On the other hand, Joseph Smith made up a bunch of crap and a lot of people have been bamboozled by it for almost 200 years.

Noob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I don't understand how you can say you've left the
> mormon church because of it's inconsistencies,
> lies, justifications, etc because you are a
> reasonable thinking person and yet you still
> believe in jesus, god, etc.

Oh I do understand. It's very simple.

They believe in it because they don't know much about it.
Just like they believed in mormonism when they didn't know much non-church-approved-and-correlated stuff about it.
And just like Brits think buddhism is a kind, tolerant and peaceful religion while Bangladeshis know better.

in b 4 ~ Psalm 14:1 ~

Faith brother FAITH!!!

Doors are all around if you care and dare to open them.

I wish I knew.

When I know, I’ll tell you all first.

Belief requires faith....the belief in the things you hope for and things you can't see or understand. I think we all have "faith" in something, be it spiritual or not.

Am I the only one who has researched and found some evidences for the Bible? There are manuscript and archaeological evidences for parts of the Holy Scriptures. Along with that, Hebrew tradition has always loaded their literature with symbolism and metaphor. We were never meant to take it all literally. They have conclusive DNA evidence that tells them who their "scattered" people are.