So with everything going on between my wife and I, one of her biggest concerns about staying married to me is the idea that I no longer have a testimony of (nor any desire to keep) the word of wisdom. Her concern is real and while I disagree with it I understand how from her TBM mindset, it may ruin our marriage and potential future kiddos.

I am fine with not drinking alcohol if that means keeping our marriage. Am I upset that it has become a sort of ultimatum? Yes. But I don't care to drink so much that it would ruin a great relationship (It's tough right now but still great).

Anyways, I'm telling her I will try my best not to drink along with the other compromises I've already made (going to church an hour with her, letting her pay tithing on half our income, letting her take our future kids to church, etc.)

I know I'm not the only one making sacrifices-- and a sacrifice to me may not be a sacrifice to you, that's fine-- but what are the sacrifices you've made to keep your marriage together? WHat sacrifices has your spouse made to stay together?

I'm particularly interested in TBM with exmo marriages but curious about everyone.

I’ve had to live in a city that I never wanted to live in.

He went along with going to church with me—even go baptized. But, he’d have helped me tremendously if he had just said NO to the whole Mormon thing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2018 02:41PM by kathleen.

I did many of the same things you are agreeing to. My now ex wife put down similar “stipulations”. What I eventually realized was that it was her way of having a “Mormon” husband in appearance if not in reality. The problem was that it was a sham, AND I was being manipulated in to living by HER rules (dictated by the cult) and not living according to the dictates of my own conscience.
Eventually the facade was not enough for her and she moved out. Probably in an attempt to manipulate me into full compliance. Needless to say, it didn’t work and after 18 months of that bullshit we got divorced.
From where I sit, your wife is playing the same game. I personally don’t think it will end well. She wants a TBM husband, and is going thru the stages of grief in losing one.
Good luck!!

do you think it was actually out of a desire for you to only "appear" to be mormon? Or was there some deeper reason for it?

I ask because I don't get the vibe-- yet-- that my wife wants me to do it out of appearance. It seems more out of fear for future kids and he ability to raise them in the gospel.

Now that I write that.... maybe she just wants me to appear TBM when that time rolls around? Who knows

I didnt pick up on it at first... only after we actually got divorced and i saw what was actually going on.

I think she thought it would “pull” me back in

My experience is similar to getinreal. You don't believe in the church but you have no problem with your "future" children living the gospel? Please don't tell me your "future" children will have a choice. You are already making promises and compromises that will effect you for the next 20 years+. If your wife really loves you, she wouldn't be putting these restrictions on you. Your thread is bringing back memories of my ex-TBM. I think I'll go have a glass of wine...

Did you have children together? Thx.

No not yet

As an ex-Mo I still have a hangup around alcohol. Alcoholism runs in my Mormon family tree; so I've pretty much have had as little to do with it as possible.

I wouldn't go out with a guy who drinks or smokes. Can't really stand to be around either. Social drinking might be easier for me to accept, but not binge drinking or drunkenness. If I were still TBM, it would be a bona fide no no.

You realize when you married her you were both on the same wavelength? You entered into a marital contract "for better or worse," but also took each other at face value. You have now bent the terms & conditions of said marital contract. It isn't just the imbibing. It is the casting aside of the WoW that you both once accepted as gospel truth.

If she can't accept the alcohol into the relationship, it would be cavalier of you to respect and honor that - especially if you want to preserve your marriage. You're making a compromise she can live with.

I just cannot agree that when a person marries they made a "contract" with someone that the party's not allowed to breach. If marriage were a real, arms-length contract, it would have an end-date. It would never be until death. Every marriage would come with a pre-nup, because any negotiator would hold some property or rights out of the contract. No one would ever turn they're entire life over to business deal. Marriage as a "contract" is a figure of speech, it's not a factual or desirable reality.

The reality is that it's a partnership of humans based on love. When formalized, it gives rise to legal rights and responsibilities, but that's not it's entire basis. Mormonism has turned marriage into a tool of coercion. Mormonism's a cult. Wives are taught that they are eternal victims--everyone in Mormonism is a victim. A wife's eternal happiness depends on the behavior of her husband. Her only recourse is to full-on-press manipulate her husband into doing what she wants him to do, because if she doesn't succeed, that's it for her idealized future.

People have got a fundamental right to believe what they want. Having to play-act for their spouse isn't right. It's right in Mormonism because Mormonism is all about what's best for Mormonism, not the people. People serve Mormonism, and not the other way around.

We should not be normalizing the behavior of a wife refusing to allow her husband his freedom to choose, and excusing her because her (childish) hopes have been disappointment. She'll either recognize that she's got no right to control other adults, or she won't. Mormonism will never free her--she'll always depend on whether a man does what she wants.

I could not have said it better myself. Exactly right.

SPOT ON!!!

as it was my job to save him. Hell. My story goes on and on, and since I'm really pissed at him right now, it just makes me remember more things. We usually get along now, but we have been 'separated' for over 22 years.

When I found out he was cheating, I told him he could have sex, but not fall in love. Then when I found out he had fallen in love, then I knew that wouldn't happen. I had 2 kids to raise. I went inactive first, though I still believed so so, but I didn't want him ex. sec. or the next bishop (as the bishop had told me he would be) while he was cheating on me and then have an audience for whatever the future brought. I quit trying to make him not fall in love. I just wanted him to stay and help raise the kids, pay the bills, etc. We finished the basement and he was supposed to live down there. Like that worked. He never did live down there at least for 17 years. He does now.

You can't control someone. When I first found out he is gay, the bishop told me to keep tabs on him. I followed him. I about lost my mind. I was supposed to ask him about his masturbation habits (per Miracle of Forgiveness) as if we could stop him masturbating, then he would become straight. I knew he wouldn't, but the bishop told me that and I was suicidal or beyond suicidal.

I had to learn to quit following him. I had to learn to realize I couldn't control him. I learned that in my marriage. I always knew when he was cheating. He would always call me just before he did. I figured it out quickly. I can read him like a book to this day.

What good did it do me to try to control him? What a joke that is.

You WILL get to a point that you rebel against her controlling you. Dr. Phil says (and I know all people don't necessarily like him), but he says that when the relationship becomes parent-child, then eventually the child leaves . . .

What changes is she willing to make? It sounds like you are the one who has to give up all your rights. She won't like what the outcome is no matter how much you try to please her even if you do stay forever. She will learn to despise you as she has that kind of control over you.

I tried to keep my marriage. I was willing to do anything and give up anything and it still didn't do any good.

I should add. As crazy as it seems, he was the one who called all the shots and I gave in. I should have called bull on it before I even married him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2018 03:47PM by cl2.

>>You WILL get to a point that you rebel against her controlling you...What changes is she willing to make?

This is my concern as well. Mightybuffalo, I have to wonder if you will one day tire of attending Sacrament Meeting every week and listening to the lies, untruths, and half-truths. We have had a lot of board members who have given that path a try and one day run away (metaphorically) screaming. They wanted to do it, but just couldn't anymore.

If your future children are raised in the faith they will be taught in their youth meetings that you are "lesser than." You are risking that they may look down on you or one day shun you. You may be the one who sits outside the temple while they are married. You may be banned by them from seeing your grandchildren. *We have heard of similar stories many, many times on this board.*

Some mixed-faith couples make it work, but there is always a huge risk. Make sure that you think it through, because if you are going to make a break from your wife, this is the time to do it -- not later after 3-4 kids and when your wife has a substantial claim on your income.

Wow. And what sacrifices/compromises is SHE making?? Is her “sacrifice” that she will stay married to you as long as you agree to her terms?

Try this. How about you “sacrifice” giving up all alcohol and keep paying tithing on half of the income. Both of you “compromise” that you alternate going to church. One week go to church with her, the next week she stays home with you. Throw that out there and see how willing she is to “compromise”.

“Future kids”?? Are you shitting me!?!?! There is NO WAY I would have “future kids” in your situation. But just for shits and giggles, throw out there that the kids will only attend church every other week as well AND that for everything they are taught you are able to present them with YOUR view of things. Offer that up as a “compromise” and see how that goes over with her.

In other words it appears that in order to keep your marriage together you will be required to live a fake life. And…as more years go by…you will most likely be required to “sacrifice” other things in your life as the threat of divorce hangs over your head constantly. Outstanding!! That has success written all over it. Do you really think you will be happy in that situation? Do you think your wife will be happy as well?

With no kids to anchor you down…you are sticking around because???? “Oh, but I love her”. That is not enough if you are not on the same page and compatible.

And to the comments that others have made that you changed and broke the contract:

No you f$#%'ing didn't! News flash people: If you think for one moment that your spouse will be the exact same person for decades on end, you're worse than a f#$%'ing deluded miscreant.

People change. And sometimes those changes are pretty significant.

The only real marital advice I'm giving my daughters is this:

If you think you have a single solitary sliver of control or influence over who the person you're intending to spend the rest of your life is going to be over the next 40-50 years boy are you in for a VERY rude awakening.

People change over time. That doesn't mean promises were broken! That kind of thinking is reserved for fairy tales we tell our children. There's no such thing as happily ever after; there's growth and change and triumphs and tragedies. There's wins and losses and milestones and catastrophes! Life is a big beautiful mess... it's rich and wonderful and dark and light and chaotic.

If you think a PERSON is going to fit in your box of expectations and hopes and ideas about what a perfect life looks like, please do the world a favor and jump off the nearest cliff. We don't need your kind around here.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2018 06:03PM by enigma.

remembering those of you who were stuck going to church, etc., and then tell him the story of you finally divorcing.

I love what you've posted here. I've followed your story. I'm so glad you've had such a great outcome.

Some marriages just HAVE TO end. I hate divorce, but there are times and I think this is the time. She is not willing to give anything it sounds like.

I always say call her bluff. You'd be shocked how they react when you say, "I just don't see this working out."

Yeah, it's still on the short topics section:

https://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon413.htm

I read it a year or so ago and thought "wow that really WAS another life!"

I agree wholeheartedly though; if there are no kids this is one of those situations where SERIOUS thought should be given to calling it - and quick.

Yeah, divorce is a meat grinder. But better to get ground up quick and then move on to healing rather than spend decades (potentially) in a torturous relationship where you KNOW you're always a disappointment to your spouse on some level.

Yeah, it's still on the short topics section:

It's number 413.

I read it a year or so ago and thought "wow that really WAS another life!"

I agree wholeheartedly though; if there are no kids this is one of those situations where SERIOUS thought should be given to calling it - and quick.

Yeah, divorce is a meat grinder. But better to get ground up quick and then move on to healing rather than spend decades (potentially) in a torturous relationship where you KNOW you're always a disappointment to your spouse on some level.

What Summer and Jaxson said, plus:

If you have to go to church with her, what will you say when asked to take a calling?

Since she is setting ultimatums but you haven't yet, may I suggest an ultimatum that she gets a norplant or other semi-permanent birth control method? Personally, I wouldn't want to be married to anyone who wouldn't agree to the conditions Jaxson mentioned above.

And I must apologize for my comment on a previous thread. I erroneously thought your wife had been married before but must have confused her for another wife in a troubled marriage.

That's what I was thinking. It sounds like you're the only one doing the compromising.
When I found out that the church was a fraud, my husband and I thought that maybe we should just keep going, just to keep the peace with family. So, we continued to go week after week, but after hearing the stuff they were teaching my kids in primary, it made me speed up our decision to leave.
Do you really want your future kids being taught the Mormon way? Do you really want to live a fake life, or live an authentic life? I couldn't take the fake life, that's why I left, even though it was the hardest thing I've done. It was sooo worth it.
Good luck to you, in whatever happens. Your wife sounds like what I would've been like, had I not seen the light.

My late wife and I went through a lot in our 47 years together (44 married). Taking on big debt right off the bat to buy our farm and then raising a child with a developmental disability and then trying to not go broke a couple times when the weather and commodity prices made life difficult. But we got through it. Both of us compromised and made it work. We were affectionate right until the end. Made a point saying we loved each other every day...or tried to. There were times when one or both of us were pissed off, but we never let it kill the marriage. Not letting religion cloud everything was a blessing. Just my experience.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2018 06:24PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

Thank you, L.P. I thought of you. I'm a little perturbed by the posts that take the stand that it's impossible to have any kind of a good or loving marriage after one spouse's doubt and/or departure. If you love each other, give it a chance. I know you're glad you did. Peace to you.

I don’t think anyone said it was impossible.
What you WILL notice are the overwhelming personal stories from those for whom it did not.
For every 100 that don’t survive, 1 does. Might be a slight exaggeration, but the evidence (even if anecdotal) speaks for itself, and it is damning.

Hmmmmm
That posted in the wrong spot :-/

I've sacrificed my male nature to (want to)have sex with every attractive female I encounter.

Other than that...nothing.

I'm not in your position, buff. I'm sorry you're in it. I can only offer the outside-the-morg perspective: in a marriage where mormonism isn't involved, and love/respect are, nobody has to make such "sacrifices." Because people who love/respect each other don't demand that their mates conform to their unreasonable demands in order to stay together. They've already figured out that two individuals can love each other massively, spend their lives together, and not be identical. They can do lots of things together, and some apart (and differently). That the differences make a life together more interesting -- they're not a threat.

Best.

When my believing wife brought up the "you make covenants to me and promises, and now you are reneging?", it made me stop and see it from my side. My argument was that I "signed" the contract under false pretenses, in other words, I was lied to (about church history etc.).

After trying to work through it all, one day she decided that it was too tough to try and make the marriage work, and she told me that she didn't see how we could make it if I was a non-believer. To her surprise, I told her that I agreed, it is too hard.

She was taken back by me agreeing, I think she had never thought that it was difficult for me too. Since that time several years ago, we have made it work--and no more talk about separating. She still believes, I don't, and we never discuss it. She is casual about the church, and hardly ever attends, but I think she always has the hope that I will come back. It works for us.

Seems ultimatum might be a Mormon thing...young guy I know got ultimatummed right into a quick marriage...I told him then if you start taking ultimatums it’ll never stop...guess what?...already good advice here...I got nuthin except it looks like she’s gotcha...if your gonna stay she’s gonna play the music...I’ll beat your metaphorical ass if you have kids till this is sorted...think of the children haha...the valleys define the peaks.....boy your having one hell of a valley...must be a peak just ahead here somewhere

Buff, i stayed in my marriage for my kids. It’s catching up with me—no shared vision for the future, no love, and no support when I’m down. I’m a big boy, I have no regrets, and I’d probably make the same decision for my children.

Boner...we love you, and support you (up or down).
But we won't have kids with you :)

No, my child producing abilities are gone. If I wanted more kids, I’d simply have you act as my donor. That way I’d get good-looking and SMART kids. I love you, wanker!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2018 09:14PM by BYU Boner.

My sacrifices:
-- She attends church 'alone' as there is no way I will unless the grandkids are on the program. I say have a good day then go to the gym, skiing, fishing, camping, etc. etc.

-- Neither, her nor I pay any tithing. How she keeps her 'tr' is a mystery to me!

-- I am much older than you and I have 'sacrificed' enough over my many years.

-- She doesn't seem to miss taking a lot of 'vacations' over the weekends.

-- I have never had the desire to smoke or drink!

You really need to think your 'sacrifices' over carefully ----- life requires enough sacrifices without 'deliberately' adding to those.

Kids usually put additional stress on a marriage, especially as they get older.

The Mormon church will also make things worse, teaching your wife/kids to disrespect you, no matter how successful you may become.

This all adds up to too much "work" and not enough enjoyment in a marriage.

My gonads.



Whoops! Did I say that out loud?

A lot of couples make their marriages work, happily, even though they are from other religions. Most of these couples are from California, where I lived for most of my life, and the marriages are long-standing. Often, one or both of the partners will change religion, from one Christian denomination to another, depending on if they have to move to another area, if they like a different Pastor better, if a church has a better youth program, or whatever reason. A lot of parings are with a Christian and an agnostic or atheist. These marriages are very stable, and the children are free to worship any way they want. Their lives have worked.

I don't know of one marriage between a Mormon and another denomination that has worked (except for Susie Q and a few others on this board).

Remember that there is a THIRD PARTY in your marriage! You and your wife are being dominated by a CULT. This makes your situation much more tricky.

My husband sacrificed being married in the temple. I had been conned into a temple marriage by an abuser, and when he began beating me, I got divorced, but was never granted a temple divorce. My husband married me in our living room, and his TBM parents never, never stopped blaming me.

When my husband found out that Mormonism is a hoax, he told me all he was learning, as he was learning it, and it made me angry, because I thought it was all "anti-Mormon lies." I did respect his integrity, and felt it was unfair for him to pay tithing to a church he didn't believe in. I never did feel in a position to "allow" my husband to spend or not to spend his hard-earned money on something. I paid tithing on my own earnings, only.

My husband made a deal with me, that he would not keep criticizing and complaining about the Mormon church--IF I would stop trying to make him to go meetings and activities. Fair enough, I thought. Also, the children would continue to go to church with me, and he wouldn't try to undermine that. We stuck to that agreement, and it worked out great!

My husband did not drink or do anything against Mormon basic beliefs, so he was not "the bad guy." You don't ever want to be the bad guy. For you to drink at this point, would not be worth it.

The Mormon cult, the third-party in our marriage, tried to break us apart. The bishop was concerned for our marriage, and constantly talked to me about it failing, predicting that it would fail, etc. My TBM in-laws blamed me for my husband's inactivity. The HT's and Elder's quorum and others constantly harassed my husband, to force him to go back.

Because my husband refused to support the cult in any way, we were soon left out of the usual couples' social life. My children and I became marginalized, as a family "without the priesthood in the home."

We lived by the ocean, and it was a tough choice for me and especially the children, to go to a church in full view of the sea, on a sunny day, knowing that Daddy was at home, waiting to take us out, afterwards--after those three long, hot, boring hours. But it was really the nastiness of the Mormons that led me to start questioning.

I promised myself that I wouldn't read any "anti-Mormon literature", and I studied my way out of the church, reading only Mormon scriptures and history, which was all lies and contradictions, and threats: Pay tithing, or else! What a hoax!

Be patient, be honest, follow your heart, and your wife might just admire you for it.

Do not have children! For obvious reasons--not!

I don't get that not drinking alcohol is a big sacrifice. Is it like sex and you've built up a horniness for booze? If you haven't been a drinker, how do you know what you're missing?

Where did you get the idea you now have to drink? Was it here? Are you now an exmo cult member trying to gain acceptance? Why not come up with your own ideas instead of being a follower?

As others said, the drinking thing is not just about religion. Drinkers can be nasty. If you were TBM and your wife started chewing tobacco, would religious reasons be your only objection?

I'm guessing you would also have a problem if your wife became 400 pounds. Would you be considered controlling if you asked her to lose weight?

The problem with marriage is there are all sorts of expectations that aren't spelled out in the vows. Works both ways.

It is also fascinating that you want to become an M.D. and can't understand that alcohol is a toxin. I've seen it cause a lot of problems, including neighbor's wife who died of liver failure. Have seen guys whose brains were shot.

Sure you can drink toxins in lower quantities, but why bother?

Not to mention people doing stupid things while drunk. Guy at work said he quit drinking after being drunk and pissing in his wife's underwear drawer.

More domestic issues while drunk, people dying on the highway, etc. I've heard guys joking about their DUI arrests.

Alcohol is a religion. Don't know why you want to swap one religion for another.

I like the LDS lifestyle, as long as I don't have to pay tithing or sit in meetings or talk to god or study scripture. Never had an urge for tattoos or nose rings, or booze or coffee or drugs or cola or hookers or whatever.

But perhaps I'm odd. Maybe the TBM's are right that people leave the church because they just want to "sin".

He did not say he wanted to get drunk.

Having a nice wine with dinner or a cold beer on a hot day in the back yard do not make him a drunk.

You can do just about anything as long as you do it in moderation.

My now ex wife told me flat out that if I ever brought alcohol in to the house she would divorce me. Apparently it’s a huge hang up for TBMs, kinda like a prostitute I guess.
Well, I never did, and she STILL divorced me. Guess it was just one more of her hyperbolic fears created by TSCC. Asshats.

BTW, there is a WORLD of difference between alcoholism (which is what you are describing) and social drinking. But if you were raised Mormon you might not know that.

Mightybuffalo

I have been thinking about you. You are graduating this week. I know that is a good thing, but it also means a lot of pressure, and you have this whole mess hanging over your head. I am sorry about that.

These discussions have been going on for a while now. You seem desperate to save this marriage. Several posters have commented on that desperation. It sounds like you are looking for what level of sacrifice is reasonable for you to make so that your wife can tolerate being married to you.

I am a lot older than you. I don't want to be tolerated in a relationship. I want to be loved, accepted and appreciated. I don't think I am unique in that. I think you want those same things. It doesn't sound like that is the case in your relationship.

You are talking about agreeing to raise children deliberately taught to disrespect you. I realize that this is all so abstract right now, but your relationship with your children in the future will be special and different from your relationship with your wife. You have no idea how angry and hurt you are going to be when your wife, your ward, your in laws and your parents tell your children not to listen to you. Not to respect you. That you are not deserving of their respect. You will be angry. You will be hurt. You will be devastated.

From where I am sitting, your marriage sounds like it is doomed. It will only go on as long as you are willing to dance to your wife's fiddle. The longer you stay in this marriage, the more collateral damage will occur. If you have children, your are just setting them up for ongoing conflict.

I am usually reluctant to suggest that someone get divorced. My advice is for you to get divorced. Your wife doesn't want to be married to you. She wants to be married to a TBM.

You should marry someone who accepts you for you. Your wife doesn't. She probably thinks that over time she is going to change you. You will change over time, but it won't be along the lines that she is thinking. You will become angry and resentful about all the sacrifices you have made for her, wondering what you are getting out of it other than contempt.

I wish you the best of luck in medical school. I hope that you have a long and happy life. I hope you find someone who loves you for you.

I have to agree with nevermojohn. You do not deserve to live with the stress and uncertainty. You deserve to be with someone who wants to be with you, and accepts you for who you are.

I tried for several years to make a marriage work with a wife who did not really love me, and made several demands on what I had to do and accept for her. Getting divorced was the greatest sense of relief I could have imagined. You do not need to live with the stress.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2018 07:44AM by alsd.

My TBM friend, Gail (70) after her Dad died:

Gail: My dad wasn’t a very good man.
Kathleen: How come?
Gail: He just wouldn’t keep the Word of Wisdom.

True story except her name.

I had to throw away the tiny used up bars of soap because she hated me sticking them to the new bar.

He has religious art iconography of symbolic importance to him nearby he's really dedicated to, said he rather die than loose it. Because he wasn't engaged in a churchgoing organization wise I failed to comprehend that he valued something tremendously , uncles monastery rosary, a few funeral crucifixes, some hand painted scenes, beading prayer beads, ceramic madonna, really basic stuff near favorite prehistoric fossilized wood rocks my singing bowl my chimes (to make the house sound good) ;)
I didn't understand him his vocabulary or metaphors from his icon structure is part of him, not some sort of ward calling you put it on and take it off when you get another one. These things matter to him if he never goes to any church unlike an old primary lesson Manuel. How come I don't feel that way about my old merrie miss bracelet come on, the mormon are lagging here. Why don't I venerate a moroni why didn't I get one of my own. It's good to hear that they're marketing Moroni action figures but I don't think it hold, I question if Moroni holds icon value/ what can he bring YOU
? Arch angel ___;a warrior archetype protects, the crucifix idea fixes what is lost as one explores inner shadows & more, the petrified tree connotes ecosystem hope sustainable eons of life -- what does Moroni bring modern seekers, he only delivered messages to one prophet how can he profit others? Who will get bishops courts if they mentioned messages Moroni sent them nowadays, no nix the action figure Moroni on a family a lk terrorist anyways. I'm glad I don't have a childhood Moroni statue or a Moroni pendant. I am no longer jealous.

I sacrificed sex with other people to stay in the marriage, and sacrificed moving to a city nearest whichever wage earner made the most all these years instead of living exactly where I worked, finishing my degree at the first college I enrolled, or sleeping with other people through as the years rolled by.

Oh I shared my tech, once we only had a desk top computer. We had to take turns it was very onerous, yeah I'm glad were past that, it'd be like having to share one book but nobody reading out loud. Rough times, we've had rough times in our marriage but now, I am happy there is enough tech.

Did I ever tell you about the time we had to share a pencil
? It's TRUE I didn't have anything to write with, my pen ran dry and he shared it with me. Now we have graphite sticks, many many pencils and we will never run out of art or writing together. But I remember when we were so poor, that we were down to our last pencil. I think we shared it with a preschool child it fit in their tiny little hand. When I look at the breakfast nook covered in art pencils and easel we now share, I see great sacrifices I made with him which he made too which he has made up to ke, which I have made up to him.

MB - Understandably, your situation raises many concerns and red flags. However, please know that all marriages - of short duration or long - are full of sacrifices and compromises! These sacrifices and compromises take various forms over the years, and are, by the very nature of marriage imposed -at times unequally - on both partners. Essentially, that is what marriage is, a partnership - hopefully a partnership centered around the joy and passion of love - but a partnership, nonetheless.

It sounds like you are deeply in love with your wife and she with you. Love is not meant to be easily, or lightly, thrown away. It might help for both you and your wife to look up the word partnership, and especially further your understanding of its full meaning through the definitions of the synonyms such as; relationship, connection, collaboration, fellowship, alliance..etc.

I waited over ten years for my love to find his way out of Mormonism. We recently celebrated our 35th anniversary. We had taken a fantastic trip together. At one elegant dinner the hostess asked us what the key was to a long and happy marriage. We both agreed: passion for life and for each other, and simply being sincerely kind to each other.

You and your wife, both, have much to consider. I"m not saying that because I waited for my love, that you two should wait until you are on the same page - it is a tremendously difficult process, and ultimately divorcing is definitely a risk - but, having come through together on the other side with a deeper, intense, mature love and respect for each other has certainly been worth the journey for us.

PollyDee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> It sounds like you are deeply in love with your
> wife and she with you.

PollyDee, upon what examples do you so confidently assert that Buffaloe's wife is 'deeply in love...with (him)'?

I've read MB's posts and his wife appears to be devastated at the personal changes he is experiencing, evidenced by her sobbing and complaining to family members about him. For a start.

Given your definitions of 'love', 'partnership', 'relationship', etc., we here at RfM appear to love the Mighty Buffalo more than his lawfully wedded wife.

We affirm him. We tell him, 'You have a bright future!', 'all the best with your upcoming graduation!', 'you deserve to be loved for your self!' On and on. We celebrate his journey, his process, his inner searching and encourage him to be his true self, whoever that is.

Contrast that with his impatient, distraught, critical, flipping out spouse. She NEEDS him to stay exactly as he was in the past. She cannot allow this man to evolve, not one iota.

We love the Mighty Buffalo.

CD - The evidence of her love is the fact that she is distraught! If she didn't love him, she would simply go for the divorce.

That they are talking of having children together is another sin of her love for him. If she felt he could not be a good father to her children in spite of his leaving Mormonism, and she didn't love him, she would likely dismiss even the thought have having children with him.

Also, MB, himself has spoken fondly of their love for each other, how things are often good between them, and appears to be looking for advice on how to keep his marriage intact.

Despite all this evidence, and more, several board members here are bound and determined to throw her under the bus in this relationship. There are many, many exmos that have been able to maintain their love for each other through the incredibly difficult transition out of the cult of Mormonism. Why are you all so eager to see MB divorce his wife?

>>Why are you all so eager to see MB divorce his wife?

Eager might be too strong a word. IMO compromise is a two way street, and I don't see the wife making substantial compromises here. MB needs to make his own decisions, but people are rightfully pointing out that what might seem palatable now (i.e. sitting in SM every week, or having future children indoctrinated,) may not be down the road, and that consequences of a marriage failure will increase exponentially with the expense of his medical school education and the addition of future children.

One thing many of you seem to be forgetting is that people can, and do, change. Those of you doing this are all for MB changing and growing, but you are not allowing time for his wife to adjust to the new dynamic, nor are you allowing her the time to change and grow herself. Many here are so sure that she will stay the same TBM mindset all her life, so, your advice is to divorce her now, and get on with his life! Have you all forgotter so easily your own transitions out of Mormonism, how difficult it is to deprogram your thinking. Why are you not allowing MB wife, the same time to process, chang, and grow! What a bunch of hypocrites you are!

Sorry for the spelling errors, I am quite passionate about this.. and I have big thumbs... :P

Alcohol is overrated you don't need it. It's worth not having if it saves a marriage and that is my input. Never been married though.

My policy was to never marry a Mormon, and I've done pretty well with that.

donbagley Wrote:
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> My policy was to never marry a Mormon, and I've
> done pretty well with that.

I have decided this as well not to even date a mormon. It would never work and cause unnecessary hardship in my life.

I haven't made significant sacrifices. My wife has cystic fibrosis, but keeping her alive is probably more important to me than it is to her, so I wouldn't count anything that's done for the benefit of her health as a sacrifice on my part. Besides, she's experiencing a rather unusual remission.

My wife and I changed our feelings (discovering it was a false dogma) about the Church at a similar time, thus I don't think I had to make that many sacrifices in our marriage. We are hitting our 50th anniversary this year with some up and downs in the relationship over the years, but we are probably closer now than ever. If I had a wife who was demanding that I not social drink, or not drink coffee or tea - it would be a deal breaker for me. Not, because of the obvious (not drinking certain beverages), but because she did not respect me as an individual being able to make my own decisions about which beverages I wish to consume. I would have to ask her what planet does she live on? What is wrong with alcohol social drinking and drinking coffee and tea? The answer is nothing - unless you are a brainwashed Mormon - trying to control the behavior of your spouse so you can feel better about yourself when you are with your Mormon friends. I tend to prefer people who know who they are and exhibit the courage to demonstrate it.

If your wife doesn't love you unconditionally just as you are with no conditions then the best thing that could happen for you and your future children is a divorce. Having just lived through leaving the tscc and the huge fall-out we had with our tbm family, your life will be better off without this toxic drama. My children currently have TBM grandparents & family that wants nothing to do with us. Its been traumatic.

Someone here on exmormon recommended the book Four Agreements to me. This quote helped me with the many people who shunned and mistreated us after leaving Mormonism. I highly recommend all of his books.

“If someone is not treating you with love and respect, it is a gift if they walk away from you. If that person doesn't walk away, you will surely endure many years of suffering with him or her. Walking away may hurt for a while, but your heart will eventually heal. Then you can choose what you really want. You will find that you don't need to trust others as much as you need to trust yourself to make the right choices.”
― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom

both Never-Mos: enduring 2.5 years of his unemployment. he goofed off, joined a gym and went hunting for antiques to add to his hoard. less and less contribution to the household workload nor his childrens' upbringing while I was bringing in the income.

now divorced

OK, so I'm not married to a Mormon. I'd still say that I've sacrificed a lot for our marriage. Like living in a foreign country and attempting to get along with in-laws that don't like me terribly much and won't accept me no matter what I do. My wife has also sacrificed a lot to keep our marriage going, mostly putting up with me in general.

My point would be that, no matter what relationship you're in, you're going to have disagreements that can't always be resolved through a compromise that makes both of you happy with the outcome, and that's not an issue of Mormonism mucking things up, although without doubt it will sometimes feel like that when your disagreements are related to Mormon issues.

I sacrificed the chance to be a mother. I sacrificed the career I went to graduate school for. I sacrificed the right to choose where I get to live.

In exchange for those sacrifices, I have a wonderful husband who loves me with all of his heart and treats me with kindness and respect. I get to write and make music to my heart's content. He mostly takes care of the bills and doesn't care that I'm addicted to Amazon and iTunes. We get to travel to beautiful places and in a few months, all of my graduate school loans will be paid off.

I would not trade what I have for the things I sacrificed. The older I get, the more I think having kids and a career are overrated. But then, I was also extraordinarily lucky. My husband and I are ridiculously compatible and, despite his drama with his ex wife and kids, we get along famously.

I don't know if my comment helps you in your situation, but I do know that my husband tried to stay in a shitty marriage and lasted almost ten years. He looks a lot younger in his early 50s than he did in his 30s, when he was with his ex wife. Life is short. You should try to please yourself; because when it comes down to it, you're the only one you truly have to live with.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2018 04:03AM by knotheadusc.

MB,

There's a book out titled "The Givers And The Takers" (1983) by Chris Evatt and Bruce Feld.

They were two guys married to "Taker" women.

Per them, it's not the *Giver" who gets fed up and gives up. No matter how much the *giver* gives, it's the Taker who generally leaves the relationship. Givers becomes a bore to Takers. They, *Takers*, find it easier to leave than to hang around and feel guilty.

I read the book 30 years ago, and it saved my marriage.

Find the oldest copy you can--hard-cover and around 186 pages. The authors changed the book to be a small paperback. (I think they offended somebody.) But, the new little paperback book is missing too much.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2018 10:53PM by kathleen.

I know there are people who would love to date you so if you do decide to just start fresh I am absolutely sure you would not be lonely. There are people who would cherish you just for the way you are right now not what their expectations for you are.