It’s time to replace the air conditioners… There’s so many smart folks here, that I’m sure some of you have some experience with this.

Our upstairs AC has been dying for a few years now. We've been here since 2008, and about every other year it's needed to be recharged with refrigerant, about a pound each time. In the last couple years it's needed it each year. And one year twice when I had it recharged too early in the Spring. Also, it's started vibrating a lot, which can be felt on the 2nd floor (the unit is in the attic), and sometimes vibrations and things clicking even on the first floor! 

Late last summer, the downstairs unit needed to be recharged too, for the first time ever. Same symptom as upstairs, freezing up because the refrigerant was low. And it already needed more this Spring, as did the upstairs unit.

The units are original, 1999, so nearly 20 years old. I think it's time to replace them.

I got an estimate yesterday. My conscience is saying to get some more, but thought I'd ask around to see what people think because I really don’t want the hassle (see below).

The estimate is for two complete systems:
- 2.5 ton AC (Trane XR-14),
- Trane cased coil,
- Gas furnace (Trane XR-80),
- New pads and emergency drain pans
- new thermostat,
- media filter,
- installation & line flush
- 10 year warranty from Trane
- 1 year warranty on labor

$6750 per system (up and downstairs) for a total of $13500

We’re in the Washington DC suburbs, if that makes a difference re. price.

Anyway, I'm just wondering what people think of the numbers, and Trane equipment in general.

I'd appreciate any insight you guys can give me! 



Re. the hassle:

I’m also having to hunt someone down to put a new roof on the house. We had some minor damage in a recent wind storm, but there’s damage on every surface of the roof (a number of gables and such). The roofers are all so busy that I can’t find anyone…

More backstory:

The first couple times we had it charged up, it was pretty expensive, and the technicians spent more time trying to sell us a new system than working on the unit. Then we were referred to a nice mom and pop HVAC company, and they’ve been very good to us. Reasonable price, and no hassle about replacement. In fact, when I mentioned it, the “mom” said “as long as it’s running ok, better $200 a year than paying for replacement.” BTW, the estimate above is from the mom and pop company.

At that point, we hadn’t planned to stay here too long, the system was running ok other than needing a recharge every 24 months or so, and we had planned not to live here too long. Well, one thing led to another and we’ve been here ten years, and likely two more. At this point, I have no choice about the roof, and little choice but to redo the ACs, but I figure that when we list the house in 18 months or so, it will be a nice selling point that the house has a new roof and HVAC.

One last thing: when it reached the point where it needed refrigerant each year, my conscience got to me and I felt bad about the refrigerant leaking, but my mom had taken ill and moved in with us. She was essentially bed-ridden for almost three years, the unit was in the attic and the access to it was through her room. TBH, I was just hoping it would outlast her, and it did (rest her soul).

Anyway, it’s beyond needing replacement, and the downstairs unit has started the same death cycle, so it’s time to replace them.

Sorry this got so long. :)

My buddy is a GC and his HVAC uses Trane exclusively. Good units, but those prices seem high. Also, look into the 90 & 95% efficient furnaces, they'll save you money on your heating costs in about 1-2 years. The 2.5 ton AC may also be a little small. Once your AC units start leaking, just adding freon is chasing your tail. If you got 20 years, you've got your money's worth, especially in DC where you get harsh winters and hot and humid summers. I'd spend sometime online and compare prices and unit sizes and efficiency rating. Lastly, spend a couple hundred bucks on a smart thermostat system. You'll make that back in your first year and have a much better balanced up and down stairs. Hope this helps. Good luck.

Thanks for the feedback, StillAnon, and the vote of confidence in Trane (if that's what I end up with).

Curious why you think the prices are a bit high.

Please see my response to nuuvox below re. square footage.

Those prices strike me as reasonable. Quality in all these units is getting poorer all the time though in a misguided effort to keep them affordable, for particular values of affordable.

While less invisible, the ductless mini split systems that are the norm in Europe and Asia can offer big savings over their life by only heating and cooling rooms as you use them. Double the up front cost though.

Thanks for the feedback.

“Quality in all these units is getting poorer all the time though in a misguided effort to keep them affordable, for particular values of affordable.”

The realities of manufacturing in an offshore economy. Get the extended warranty. Here in AZ, you can’t even buy parts to fix your A/C. I thought crawling up on the roof in 120 degree heat was just a fact of life. Turns out there are service contracts, warranties, all kinds of stuff you can get. It doesn’t have to be that the installer gets your cash and you never see them again. Chinese workmanship is good, but not that good.

Does this bid include R&R of the condenser (outside unit)or just the attic bits (furnace and evaporator)?

If possible, attic units transmit less vibration if they are suspended from the rafters, rather than sitting on pads that rest on ceiling joists. Recommend checking into feasibility in your situation. It will significantly reduce vibration.

Price is not a fire sale, but not over priced, either.

ETA—have you investigated heat pumps?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2018 09:25PM by csuprovograd.

Thanks for the feedback, Csuprovograd

The bid includes the outside components too. I believe it's the "caged coils" and new pads for both units part of the quote.

Suspending the attic unit does sound intriguing, but I don't really think vibration will be an issue with new machines. It wasn't when we first moved in, and has been steadily getting worse in the last couple years.

At one point, I poked around the ductwork quite a bit, wondering about efficiency, leaks, etc, and discovered that the ductwork near the unit on the return/supply side was full of gaps and openings! I closed them all up with duct tape, but suspect that a lot of stuff went through over the years that shouldn't have, and suspect that this contributed to the attic unit's demise.

How about just fixing the refrigerant leaks.
Gee, what a novel concept.

Chasing leaks can get real spendy, real quick, especially if most of the lines are inside walls.

How often have you seen a line inside of a wall ?

As a general contractor, I have built hundreds (literally) of home with refrigerant lines inside the walls—- 2nd floor attic evaporator to ground floor condenser. Sometimes routing between floors laterally.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2018 12:18AM by csuprovograd.

Very spendy, no guarantee that the solution will be permanent, and certain refrigerants will be outdated within the next few years.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2018 12:32AM by summer.

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How about just fixing the refrigerant leaks.
> Gee, what a novel concept.

Well, I did consider that when I first realized that we had a serious leak (read my other comments about poking around the attic and sealing up duct leaks).

Anyone and everyone I asked about it, including reading online, said that no one does this kind of work, and it's cost prohibitive to pay someone by the hour to try to find leaks.

Furthermore, as I've mentioned, the upstairs unit has multiple issues going on, and is dying even beyond leaking.

I think these units have outlived their life expectancy, and I'm happy enough with that.

If your roof was damaged in a storm, I'm thinking Insurance...

Yes! The HVAC is on me, but insurance is picking up the tab for the roof. They've already sent me a sizable check, and it's larger than the numbers I've heard thrown around for whole roofs in the neighborhood. The problem is getting someone to do it. Our area is festooned with blue tarps since the last big storm.

I'm actually an HVAC engineer so I was surprised and delighted to see your post. Trane units have gone downhill recently for some reason, as someone else pointed out. There are always bad parts when my company installs Trane until! That being said they'll do the trick once they get going. 2.5 tons does seem a bit small as someone else said. What is your square footage? Two story or single?

I would recommend Lennox or carrier if you can afford it. And I would HIGHLY recommend getting at least 3 quotes.

Thanks, nuuvox! I’m equally pleased to see an HVAC engineer responding. :)

What’s the frequency of bad parts in Trane units, in your recent experience? 100%? 50%? 10%? I hope that doesn’t sound argumentative. I just wonder what to expect.

SQFT was originally about 2800, roughly 1200 upstairs, and 1600 downstairs. There’s also a partially finished basement, and it’s about 400 additional sqft (don't know exactly, but done before we moved in).

I’m surprised to hear a couple of people say that 2.5 ton may be too small, w/o knowing the square footage.

Anyway, the “pop” says the original units are 2.5 tons each, both upstairs and downstairs (Comfort Maker).

I asked about going up to the next size, because on really hot days the upstairs unit can run continuously and the temp still climbs. He attributes that to the upstairs unit not running at it best, since by July and August a sizable amount of refrigerant will have leaked out (and that is likely true, since I didn’t notice that phenomenon in the first years we lived here…only after it started leaking faster. He also advises against going “too big” because he says that although it will run “stronger” the shorter durations will result in less dehumidifying (or something like that).

He did say that if we wanted to go up to the next size up, it would only be a couple hundred dollars per unit.

In addition to looking them over the other day, he’s serviced both units multiple times now. But he also factored in having re-done our neighbor three doors down (like all modern subdivisions, this is look-alike-heights, for the most part—there are only about three floor plans in the neighborhood, and double that with facade variations. This neighbor is identical to us, except mirror image). This will be their 2nd summer with the new units.

Anyway, I think he threw in the last part so that I’d ask the neighbor (but they’re on vacation). My next-door neighbor, who knows everyone and everything in the neighborhood, says they’ve been happy with it.

You mentioned Lennox and Carrier if I can afford them. How much more should I expect to pay for them? I can afford them if they’re worth the difference. At the same time, I’m looking to move out in 18 to 24 months, so kind of want to keep things as bread-and-butter as possible, unless I’ll recoup the investment.

Plan to follow through with more quotes. Perhaps for different brands too.

Thanks again.

Oversizing the AC unit is a very bad idea. The motors don't run right they don't cycle right and things burn out and die fast because they're not running at right cycle time.

Don't do it.

This^^^^^

Oversized units will not run long enough to dehumidify the air properly--a big factor in DC.

I think that "the District" (what natives call it,) is one of America's truly great, but often overlooked cities. It easily rivals New York, San Francisco, and New Orleans in terms of interest and charm. But there is a reason why some call it "the swamp" (a political term, but not an entirely inappropriate one.) It is bloody humid in the summer! Good and reliable A/C is a necessity here.

I was thinking the same thing.
And being grateful to live in the desert of SoCal -- it gets hot, but it's rarely humid. And a considerably simpler (and cheaper) central AC unit works just great for my home.

OP, for what it's worth: I put in a Carrier heat pump system when I bought my house (2000). Eighteen years later, nary a problem nor a recharge. As I noted above, we don't have nearly the humidity issue you do, but we do have more sq. ft. (~4000), all on one level, and the Carrier has run like a champ for 18 years.

Good luck.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm going with the recommended size. He just said that if the next one up was better--after he verified all the dimensions, etc, that it wouldn't be much more. He also discouraged going arbitrarily larger.

Honestly, I complained about the Trane units having bad parts but as a purchaser you don't really need to worry about that, the installer does (which is why I was complaining lol) Once they get it going, even if they have to replace parts, it should run just fine.

I honestly couldn't say how much more cost there is between manufacturers unfortunately because we buy these buy the dozens usually. However, we usually end up going with Trane so it's most often the lowest.

I have to apologize for misreading your original post, it sounds like you are getting two 2.5 ton units, not just one 2.5 ton unit like I was thinking. Without doing load calculations, I would say you should be well covered with a total of 5 tons. It would be better to have 3 tons upstairs and 2 tons downstairs but that's just me being nitpicky.

If you're moving out you should probably just go with the cheapest honestly. I doubt the appraiser looks at the manufacturer of the AC and furnace. Maybe though.

Thanks for the clarifications! I thought you meant that the parts were wrong and would break down after it was installed and running. "Pop" is coming tomorrow to measure the existing ductwork, to see what they'll need to connect it all up. Then they'll install it next week.

Regarding 3 tons upstairs and 2 down, about a third of the first floor has two story ceilings, and the main return for the upstairs unit (20"x20") is in that space (smaller 12"x12" return in the largest bedroom), so the two zones are interchanging air, and the downstairs unit is actually sharing much of the upstairs load in the two-story tall areas.

For what it's worth, Consumer Reports says that surveyed members were happiest with Carrier or Trane. Members gave a thumbs down to York, Rheem, and Ruud.

I live in Maryland and selected a small mom-and-pop HVAC company as well. I've been very satisfied with them for more than a decade now. They told me to do what you've been doing -- replace the refrigerant every year. But my day of reckoning is coming as well.

I was told that to replace the furnace and outside unit for my 11,000 sq. ft. condo would run somewhere between $7-8K. So your estimate does not seem unreasonable to me. But I would do as Nuuvox suggested and get three quotes.

I found my mom-and-pop through the BBB. The company had zero complaints, although the BBB considers a few resolved complaints to not be a big deal. The company with the biggest ad in the phone book had tons of complaints. You could also try online review sites such as Angie's List or ask neighbors for recommendations.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

Thanks, Summer. Yes, we are probably not too far apart.

11,000 sqft is a pretty big condo! Did you mean 1100?

Yes, I will provide progress reports along the way. :)

Ha! Yes, I meant 1,100 sq. ft. :)

Just replaced the ancient a.c. unit at my rental property. 835 square foot home. Bought a 2 ton Lennox unit from the biggest HVAC dealer in the area. 10 year warranty and the install was done in 7 hours. They installed new lines as I didn't trust the old ones.

Did you replace the furnace at the same time, LR? How much did it run you for the job, if you don't mind saying?

Furnace was replaced 10 years ago. Still in good condition. The AC job cost me C$4300.

Lethbridge Reprobate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just replaced the ancient a.c. unit at my rental
> property. 835 square foot home. Bought a 2 ton
> Lennox unit from the biggest HVAC dealer in the
> area. 10 year warranty and the install was done in
> 7 hours. They installed new lines as I didn't
> trust the old ones.

Interesting. If you went with 2 ton for 835 sqft, maybe two 2.5 tons isn't big enough for me... ?

Also depends on where you are. Up here we don't get into the high 90's F many times each summer.

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I wish I could reply to everyone individually.

I want to add a few general comments though.

Several people have mentioned different kinds of AC and heating equipment. I want to keep it as basic but reliable as possible. As I've mentioned, I'm going to be moving in the next couple years, and I'd just like it all to be reasonable quality, and in good working order, and relatively "new" when I put the house on the market.


I would like to get some more estimates. At the same time, if I could get a "green light" that would make it easier. I mentioned "hassle," and, I posted anonymously (although in retrospect I don't know that it was necessary), and been a bit vague because of that.

Here's the thing: in the last 12 months I not only lost my mom, but my wife too (to cancer). I'm dealing with not one, but two estates. I'm grieving not one loss, but two. I spent the last 8 months alone in this house, because my kids were away at college (although they're home for the summer, for which I'm very glad). I'm trying to get caught up on a few years of neglected stuff around the house, and get back on track professionally. On top of that I have the HVAC to replace, and the roof...

This may sound trite, but I just don't have the mental energy to deal with all this, and if I can streamline some decisions, that'd be great.

If I were going to be in this house long term, I'd love to investigate all newer more efficient types of equipment, etc, but I'm not, and I don't have the energy at this point anyway.

Oh, and I probably don't even have to mention this, but I'm also dealing with the antagonism of the TBMs in my family, half of whom believe we got what we deserved for denying "the gospel" and the other half trying to exploit our grief and love bomb us (and a couple truly wretched people with a foot in each camp).

Thanks again, everyone, for the feedback and help. :)

I would strongly advise NOT having your A/C unit in the attic. Its efficiency is compromised by doing so. It's terribly hot in the attic and your trunks that send out coolant get hot and have to work against the heat in the attic.

Is it possible to have your central heat & A/C coils in the basement, with compressor unit in the backyard? That would be much more efficient.

You clearly did not read the OP's response about exotic change suggestions.

Tranes are pretty good i used to help install them back in the day.

Thanks, Adam! I'm hoping to get some bad ass equipment! ;)

Thanks again, everybody.

I'm going with the estimate above. I got a couple more, and they were competitive. Most wanted to know what I'd already been bid, but I didn't tell anyone until after they bid first. Each one was higher, initially, but was willing to come down or price match. I'm still getting calls from aggressive sales folks... :(

I also found some online listings of prices, for the units and units with installation. They were fairly close too.

I like the folks I've been dealing with over the years.

I also remembered that an old friend of mine teaches HVAC at my hometown technical college. He said Trane makes good stuff (as do others). His son has an active HVAC business, and said the quote was very reasonable (although he's in a different metro area: Atlanta).


QUESTION:
What's the norm for paying for a job like this? Half up front, half when done? I've learned over the years that when I pay in full up front, it always takes longer to get the job done.

Where I live you can get work like this done on a signature, and pay after its completed. If you've had these people do work for you in the past and you've paid as promised, I'd think they'd not ask for payment up front. I would never pay 100% up-front for HVAC work, or the roof, for that matter.

NEVER EVER pay a contractor up front. EVER! Larger HVAC guys will do the work and require payment upon completion. Smaller, mom and pop outfits usually will ask for 50% for parts and materials with a contract that demands payment when the job is done. Anything more should be a red flag. Your payment is your leverage. Do not pay 100% upfront- you're just begging to get ripped off.