Aquarius123 Wrote:
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> That all aside, Elder Berry is so right. We all
> take things differently. Some victims of sexual
> abuse suffer more damage than others, and some use
> their coping skills better. (((Elder Berry))))
> You're a trooper!

Thanks! I would never deny someone is broken from abuse. Never would I tell people to get over things. We are no different than people suffering severe psychological problems. If it is a problem for someone it is a problem. We all cope the best we can with the genetic toolboxes we have. I just dislike overgeneralizations especially in the realm of abuse.

For the Mormons I love, the things Joseph Smith did don't affect them like they do me. My wife and children have to my knowledge never been subjected to much abuse and I doubt any sexual molestation. This is a good and bad thing. They don't suffer the harm but they don't understand it either.

An understanding and acute empathy for other victims is often a result of having been abused. As you note, it is a strength. It also, however, comes at a cost.

A lot of therapists, caregivers, and social leaders are themselves victims. They were "called" by their own experience and their empathy for others. They are, in the Hindu/Buddist imagery, like water lilies: plants that arise from mud and filth to bloom in stunning beauty and purity.

Lot's Wife: "...water lilies: plants that arise from mud and filth to bloom in stunning beauty and purity."

Wow, LW, that brought tears to my eyes. So beautiful.

Elder Berry: Your words on this topic are eloquent, your willingness to discuss it undoubtedly so helpful to many.

If we haven't gone through a certain experience ourselves it can be difficult to imagine it or understand its aftermath, even for trained professionals who have the book learning but not the firsthand knowledge (thankfully for them). As many have said, it's so helpful to others who have suffered abuse to know they are decidedly not alone, and to those who haven't so they can perhaps gain a bit of insight into it. Even if we can't help much at least we could perhaps empathize or at a minimum avoid putting our mouths in gear and our feet in the nasty stuff. (As in saying the dreaded words: "Just get over it"). I think it's very hard for some people to envision a situation if they haven't gone through it themselves (not that that entirely excuses them if they are ignorant about it).

On a different note, a general comment: It's unfortunate, imho, that many tend to default to indicating that somehow those who have "recovered" (whatever that looks like to an outsider) are smarter or better than those who continue to be visibly affected by negative experiences. (Can anybody know of another's internal struggles? Obviously not, as someone can seem to be "OK" but inside they're in agony and onlookers don't know it). Some have said the image of "fighting" is itself negative and maybe it would be more therapeutic to create a different image about the whole experience of going through treatment for cancer. I think there's a lot to that viewpoint.

It reminds me of an issue that has lately come to the forefront for me. Some people who have or have had cancer and/or relatives are speaking out about terminology that is often used in news reports, stories, commercials. Journalists, medical staff, charity personnel, as well as many patients and relatives speak of "fighting" cancer and especially in obits of "losing" their battle. Some are saying it seems to them as focusing on a negative. It can feel like criticism, as if the ill person had a choice and wasn't strong enough or didn't have the right spirit, when physiology itself plays a major role in outcomes (type and location of cancer, as well as other physical realities and also genetics/family history and even other unknown factors, all outside a person's direct control).

With people who experience abuse, in any form, likewise the words outsiders use,the conclusions we draw, our attitudes and expectations can help or hurt. Trying to understand is one way of indicating that we do care. Listening is a good start.

Thank you to all who put themselves out there in any way to advance understanding and to help others who struggle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2018 01:58PM by Nightingale.

Nightingale Wrote:
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> Wow, LW, that brought tears to my eyes. So
> beautiful.

I had something in my eyes earlier...

> Elder Berry: Your words on this topic are
> eloquent, your willingness to discuss it
> undoubtedly so helpful to many.

Thanks for your confidence.

> It reminds me of an issue that has lately come to
> the forefront for me. Some people who have or have
> had cancer and/or relatives are speaking out about
> terminology that is often used in news reports,
> stories, commercials. Journalists, medical staff,
> charity personnel, as well as many patients and
> relatives speak of "fighting" cancer and
> especially in obits of "losing" their battle. Some
> are saying it seems to them as focusing on a
> negative. It can feel like criticism, as if the
> ill person had a choice and wasn't strong enough
> or didn't have the right spirit, when physiology
> itself plays a major role in outcomes (type and
> location of cancer, as well as other physical
> realities and also genetics/family history and
> even other unknown factors, all outside a person's
> direct control).
>
> With people who experience abuse, in any form,
> likewise the words outsiders use,the conclusions
> we draw, our attitudes and expectations can help
> or hurt. Trying to understand is one way of
> indicating that we do care. Listening is a good
> start.

It is the best place to start. I've been attempting to cultivate this art form. Many people think it is like hearing. IT isn't.

Elder Berry: "Many people think it [listening] is like hearing. IT isn't."

Amazing insight, EB. Poignant. I am going to steal it.

WOW Lot's Wife. Beautiful. To those who are called I have much gratitude.

I was speaking of you, EB.

LW: "An understanding and acute empathy for other victims is often a result of having been abused."

How true. We see that in Elder Berry and others who reach out to help others with an understanding beyond what the rest of us can possess in this regard.

I used to console myself after unfortunate experiences by saying well at least I learned this or that. It did help me to think that way - that there was a reason for what happened, I could learn from it, and use it in my work as a nurse, a lay counsellor, a police community services volunteer, and in various (non-mo) church settings. Not to share details with others but to know a bit about how it feels to experience loss, pain, fear.

Just one eg that I value: I could recognize a church therapy group for abused women as decidedly non-therapeutic and got it shut down. It elicited accounts of rape and other sexual violence from women but provided zero knowledgeable counselling, assistance or follow up. Women raked up memories of fear, violence and injury (over coffee!) and then left on their own to go about their daily business with no support. I initially felt bad about the group being cancelled but the lessons about not wading into unknown waters and tackling major issues without proper knowledge were good ones for many and I felt that less harm was done in the long run than might otherwise have occurred. It's nothing to trifle with. And it shows how much there is to be learned from each other.

Not that I ever considered myself to be abused, not in the conventional sense. But definitely can identify with Me Too, in limited ways. So there's that.

Nightingale Wrote:
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> Not that I ever considered myself to be abused,
> not in the conventional sense. But definitely can
> identify with Me Too, in limited ways. So there's
> that.

I think few humans can not have had suffered some sort of abuse at sometime in their lives. The Buddha maybe could have before becoming The Buddha.

I often think of some victims with paralyzing empathy. When I read about the woman who's case went to the Supreme Court and it started the legislation for Sexual Harassment laws I was overwhelmed with empathy for her. A person in power who is admired required her complicity in sexually abusing her. Knowing what that feels like can trigger but also it can overwhelm a former victim with feelings of empathy which are painful. In my case sometimes it parallelizes but sometimes it calls me to action. I wish for the latter but sometimes feel the former and want to block the pain.