I have spoken to a few TBM friends over the last year about the fact that I do not believe the claims of Mormonism. I try to do this respectfully and quietly for a number of reasons.

Their responses have varied. I was surprised that some have said, "You never had a testimony, did you?"

It was tough for me to understand this at first. Some of these people have worked with me for years. We have set up chairs, loaded moving trucks, and hiked with scouts together. We have sat together in seemingly endless meetings and discussed why brother so-and-so stopped attending or what we could do to make sister such-and-such feel comfortable again. We have made visits to hospitals, members homes, and non-members homes during youth missionary days. We have carpooled to the temple, cleaned church bathrooms, and sat in leadership meetings together. In at least one case, I have given the same friend a recommend interview who gave me my recommend interview a couple of years later. We have studied, prayed, sang, and cried together. I have gotten up in front of the ward and the stake over ten years and testified that I knew that the church was true.

If this was not evidence of a testimony, than what was? It actually hurt a little to hear someone say that I had never had a testimony. It made me feel like they were questioning my sincerity. If they could disqualify my testimony, then they could discount any question, criticism, or misgiving that I have with the church. It seemed almost like a personal attack.

After thinking about it for a while, I realized that there might be another explanation to my friends' reaction. They may actually have been showing kindness by offering me a graceful way out. In other words, if we agreed that, "I never really got it," then they will not feel wounded, and I can remain a good, but tricked, friend of church members.

Indeed, all of the things that I mentioned about serving probably do not demonstrate having a testimony. Over years I demonstrated that I cared about people and liked being around friends. I am at peace with the idea that I joined the church and actively served in it to satisfy my need to belong.

It seems that having a real testimony means that I must align my thoughts and actions with whatever the prophet is teaching today. I simply cannot do that. I refuse to go to the wall to defend the church's positions on gender, sex, sexuality, and patriarchy. I cannot, in good conscience, continue to look the other way while the church lies about its history. I can no longer pretend to support the supernatural or spiritual claims of knowledge and authority made by the church. I refuse to twist words to say that I "know" something that I could not possibly know.

If refusing these items means that I never had a testimony, then thank you to my good LDS friends for helping me to own up to this fact. I NEVER HAD A TESTIMONY! (Shouting intentionally.) I am glad that I never did, too. For most of the people who I think probably do have a "real" testimony, there is truly no chance of going back to reason and rational thinking.

I have come to appreciate having never had a testimony.

Myself, I think that if they can convince themselves that you never had a testimony, then they don't have to fear you may be right.

cl2 you are right on.

My thought exactly.

You're spot-on, Cl2!

Lowpriest, you are a kind person! You have figured out how to maintain tenuous "friendships" with Mormons. You are far better at compromise than I am. You care more about the people than about their cult, which is as it should be!

I can understand your hurt feelings, at first. The Mormons we have worked with and served for years never thanked us. When they don't appreciate all those years of steadfast obedience and heartfelt love, it is like they are negating all of our good deeds. But we know we were sincere, at the time.

Your good disposition and love for others comes from YOU, and is not because the cult ordered you to act that way. I think that is what makes you secure, now. Your inner peace and self-confidence allows you to be generous to others. You are not at war with the Mormons (like I am, out of anger), and you want to maintain your friendships.

Don't throw yourself under the bus, though. You were never phony! Do your TBM friends think you were a hypocrite all those years? I would never vilify myself, for the sake of someone else's feelings. You came to know the Truth, honestly, and that's what really happened. Own it.

Mormons say the silliest things to justify their beliefs & actions, often with no regard to hurting others.


Mormonism 'requires' that members do this, yet another proof of how shallow / superficial many of them are!!


Why would a believer worry about others to the point of insulting them?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2018 01:35PM by GNPE.

If you never had a testimony you're in good company.

Oliver Cowdry
Martin Harris
David Whitmer

All left the church. Guess they never "had" a testimony either.

Mormons and the LSD Church like to use the word "testimony" because it has gravitas (mostly borrowed from the legal world).

But there's nothing magic about "having a testimony."

Testimonies can be credible or not credible.

Testimonies can be false. That is why penalties of perjury may apply in certain contexts where the testimony in question is deemed so important that extra incentive needs to be given to help ensure (while still failing to guarantee) that the witness will not lie...i.e. give false testimony.

Witness testimonies must not be coached. If lawyers are caught coaching a witness's testimony, it is a serious ethical violation.

The LSD Church has always dealt with "testimony" in a frivolous, unethical way, that renders any Mormon testimony suspect. Mormon testimonies are cheap and easy to come by. They reveal no facts that can or cannot be verified or tested on cross examination. They throw around the phrase "I know" in ways that render it meaningless and makes epistemologists cringe in horror.

Mormon testimonies are coached. At virtually every F&T meeting you can see people giving coached testimonies. Even children who do not comprehend the words they are saying are coached in real time, word-for-word, in their "testimonies". (Can you imagine a courtroom scene where a lawyer stands right next to a witness on the stand and whispers into the witness's ear to prompt every word that the witness says in response to questioning?)

Leaders are constantly telling Mormons what the content of their "testimonies" are to be.

Leaders tell Mormons that sometimes the best way to get a testimony is to keep repeating words that they have given to you until you convince yourself that they're your own words.

Mormonism has always made a farce and a joke out of the "testimony" concept.

All you did was stop bearing false testimony. You used to have a joke testimony. Now you realize that's not a credible testimony. Now they're unhappy with you in the way that members of a criminal organization would be unhappy with a fellow member who insists on telling the truth instead of sticking with the phony story that the organization's corrupt lawyer gave him.

A better response from mormon friends would be "you changed your mind on what you believe." Each of us has the freedom to do just that from time to time. It's called progression.

I have had people suggest that changing my mind is flip flopping, unstable, or unpredictable.

I ask them why is it ok when people change there mind about being another religion and join the LDS church?

Mormon testimony = self hypnosis

You're right.
Neither do you.
If you maitain erroneous beliefs, despite superior evidence to the contrary, that is the very definition of delusion.
I was delusional.
So are you if you still sing the praises of a cuckold bull, knowing he raped his followers wives and teenage daughtets.

I have a testimony of working together.
Of doing the right thing. Loving others.
Helping others in need. Feeding the hungry.
Being considerate of others, even thoughtful.
A testimony of being normal, without explanation.
One of doing something simply because, without fanfare.
Of cutting to the chase, and living simply, by simply living.

That's all

If Mormon testimonies were like this, they wouldn't need to lean on them all the time. They could simply be. And be themselves.

M@t

Isn't it Oh, so wonderful and amazing that these people know your own mind and thoughts better than you yourself?

Let them meander in their make-believe world of elitism where they are trained to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if they spit out what the leaders say, all is well in Zion for them and not so much for you as now you are crowned with the title of apostate.

Name calling is also a trait they excel at.

(Yes, they are truly taught to love and care for others, aren't they?)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2018 03:11PM by presleynfactsrock.

The problem is always you. Never them.

I would tell the other person, "Many people used to have a firm testimony that the Earth is flat. They firmly believed that if you sailed to the edge of the Earth, you would fall off." [Pause and look the other person in the eye.] "Some people still firmly believe that. You can't shake them from their testimony. Because they know what they believe is true."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2018 05:18PM by summer.

It’s so much easier if they think you’re the crazy one.

There were times I thought I had a testimony, but deep inside I knew I was deluding myself. So I'd probably agree if someone said I never had a testimony. If I was in a bad mood I might retort, "No one does. It's just a trick we play on ourself."

Mormons treat their testimonies as Black/White infallible; Never to be doubted; This is another aspect of their delusion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2018 08:28PM by GNPE.

IMO it makes them feel "safe" with their testimony. You fell away because you never had one. This means they will be able to weather the storm of controversial facts.

Howzmany of us had a testimony of Santa Claus?

just another (really shoddy) attempted MORmON insult by MORmONS with the intent to humiliate and stigmatize an escaped / former MORmON back in to submission of MORmON control.

It felt like a punch in the stomach the first time someone who never knew me told me that. Realizing that everything I had believed was fake was one of the hardest things I had to do, to be honest with myself and face the truth. The testimony is self delusion. Wards are losing some of their strongest members and leaders so when someone says that, he or she has no clue what they are talking about.

This one is interesting. As one who was Seminary Prez in HS, BYU Grad, Mission, Ward and Stake Callings, EQ prez, bishopric - I spend hours and hours reading the Book of Mormon, listening to conference talks and praying for a witness of the Book of Mormon.

Never got it. Fasted for days on the mission while praying for the witness it was true - to detriment of my health.

After home did the same time after time after time - and never got it. Bore testimony of "the gospel is true" and all the normal stuff hoping..., just hoping that I would get that witness some how, some day.

It never came.

The inconsistencies came and I finally started looking into them - using church resources. Going into the full quotes and references from lessons showed too many times when the quote was taken out of context and did not say what was taught. This happened too often to be a simple mistake.

So, asked my leaders and generally got "don't question - pray for faith". Trouble is - faith does not trump reality. Reality was that the church was telling me lies to convince me they have the truth.

That, I could not take.

Then Gordon Hinckley denied Polygamy and Eternal Progression on National Television interview in the US. He actually denied both.

I asked leaders about it(Regional Rep and Qof12 member) and finally a rep who was a personal friend told me "Stop by Utah Lighthouse in SLC next time you are in town - and check out some of their re-prints of original LdS books. He encouraged talking with Gerald Tanner as well. His feeling was 'get the truth and decide for yourself" privately even as his public talks were "hold fast".

I started looking, visited the Tanners and a year later I was out.

The guy is right - I never had a Testimony - and did a lot of harm to my health fasting and praying for one - and wasted fully half my life trying for it. LDS,inc is toxic and an institution that knows what it is doing - and just does not care as long as the dollars keep coming in.

I was guilty of this during my TBM days.

I remember a conversation I had with a TBM friend years ago. We were talking about some of the people we knew on our mission who had left the church. I said "anyone who leaves the church never really got it." My friend agreed.

We both abandoned the "one true church" years ago.

Nope. Never could get that delusional. -How 'bout you?

A "testimony" is a decision you make to believe no matter what.

The fact that you no longer believe meant that the decision back
then wasn't really for "no matter what."

So, in a sense, they're right.

I've been told that by still-TBM friends as well.

My response has always been:

Well, yes, I did. I fully, sincerely, and honestly believed it was all true. As much as anyone can believe anything.

I simply realized that believing something does not mean that something is "true." That people -- myself included -- are quite capable of fully and truly believing things that are false.

And that the only way to determine if something is "true" or not is to carefully examine the evidence for and against it. As objectively as possible.

When I did that with mormonism's claims, I found that the evidence either showed the claims false, or didn't provide enough facts to reach a conclusion. Thus leaving me no good reason to believe just because I wanted to, or because it felt good to do so.

So, yes -- I had a testimony. I simply realized it was worthless when it comes to determining truth.

When I think back to my TBM days I am so embarrassed by the number of times I got up and proclaimed "I KNOW the church is true" (emphasis was always on the word know). I didn't know shit. I was basically standing up in front of the congregation trying to convince them and myself that the sky was really pink and not blue, regardless of evidence to the contrary.

I've heard church leaders refer to testimonies as very fragile things. I believe that is true. I think that members of the church are terrified by those who have left for reasons other than moral transgression. It rocks there world view. I think the typical LDS "testimony" is so tenuous that they have to have the monthly testimony meeting to try and prop them up.

The greatest threat to the testimony of the members of the church isn't exmo's, postmo's, jackmo's or nevermo's. Its just plain old critical thinking. Once that is activated the church doesn't have a chance.

2 things.

If they accept you did, you were probably one of their deceived “very elect.” They don't want to be friends with one of them.

"We are told that some of the “very elect” will be enticed and deceived. Couldn’t this “very elect” include your sons and daughters, even though through baptism they have already accepted Christ as their Savior? Wouldn’t the evil one concentrate on them if he found a weakness or an opportunity?"
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1973/07/power-of-evil?lang=eng

Also, if you never had a testimony you are more like a Mormon "non-Mormon" who got baptized, did some Mormon stuff but never really "got it" so you are like a non-threatening non-Mormon. If you were an apostate...um, well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2018 11:23AM by Elder Berry.

Until I bailed from LDS Inc., I was just following the crowd and accepted idiotic dogma to make myself feel good.

Is that a testimony or just a lack of critical thinking mixed with a need to belong and feel good.

I-never-could-abide-bullshit-ly yrs,

S