that your testimony wasn't as solid as it was supposed to be or that something was a bit off about the ChurchCo narrative?

My big tipping point was when I went through the temple for the first time and had to do those idiotic throat-slitting and disembowelment gestures.

BUT...

My first inkling was when I was around 7 or 8 years old. I remember my TBM mom was telling me about the golden plates.

For a kid, it's a pretty good story. What's not to like? A glowing angel. Buried treasure. The treasure turns out to be these really neat-o golden plates with ancient writing on them (starting to shape up like a good Indiana Jones tale).

I have to admit, as a little kid I got excited about the golden plates...

AND...

I wanted to see them for myself... [[BwwerkZonk!Clunk~! Pause the video.]]

That's where everything went wrong.

I asked my mom where the plates were and if we could go see them. (Silly me. I had been to a museum and understood that you could see stuff like that at the museum.)

Then she told me that we couldn't see them because the angel took them up to heaven.

I must've given her a really pissed-off expression because I remember that she then launched into some long, nervous explanation about faith needing to be tested and yadda yadda and if we could see the plates we wouldn't be able to have faith and faith is so important and yadda yadda....

I never forgot that disappointment.

It never stopped nagging at me. Somehow it always seemed "too convenient" that the amazing golden plates were "taken away".

It was too much like that friend who tells you about this amazing UFO gizmo that his dad has in his garage. But when you ask him if you can see it there's always some excuse as to why it's not possible to see it right now. Maybe later. Eventually you realize that maybe your friend is just full of sh*t.

...I always thought if Jesus wanted us to do certain things, he could make an appearance on top of the Empire State building, and just say; "Hey, jackasses......you gotta' do this, or I'm gonna' do some bad stuff to you....OK?"

"It's your call!"

...but I was told "No, Jesus won't do that, because we have free agency."

is pretty idiotic.

Free agency is meaningless if God is always going out of his way to deprive you of the information needed to make meaningful choices.

First you get complete amnesia when you're on earth, so you have no idea where you came from or why you're here.

Then, instead of visiting you personally and letting you know what's what, the guys who are in charge of everything and who have all the superpowers refuse to let you see them. Instead, they choose to communicate to you through idiots and untrustworthy scoundrels who never seem able to communicate anything of substance that ever transcends the quality of the flawed, inaccurate and misleading garbage that you can get from ordinary idiots and scoundrels who are not even pretending to be conveying god's messages to you.

Yeah...free agency.

Free agency...like a drunken bum telling a kid that god told the bum to tell the kid that she, the kid, can choose any number between 1 and 9 and then face the consequences of that choice.

The bum doesn't ever give any details as to why she should pick a number or what the numbers signify. Then the drunken bum says to pick an odd number instead of an even number, so the kid picks the number 5 and a door marked number 5 opens up and 5 rabid dogs come out and eat her.

"Hey, it's all mysterious," the bum mutters as he walks away. "God's ways are not our ways. But she had free agency, so she got what she deserved as the consequence of her choices."

...hell, even though we are on graveyard shift here, I think I'll sneak a drink. And, I still think a return visit to the Ward/Branch could provide hours of entertainment value....pretending to be interested, but asking the insanely tough questions.

The priesthood ban hadn't been lifted and I asked why men were punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgression except for Blacks who were punished for Cain's transgression.

Yes, I always wondered the same thing that mikemitchell did. I kept asking the same questions, over and over, for many years, and I grew up in that same California ward.

We would get a new Sunday school teacher (often a university student) every year, and the first day, one of my friends (now married to a stake president) and I would frantically raise our hands. The teacher would call on one of us, and the question would be asked, "Why can't women have the priesthood?"

Whenever any teacher asked, for anything at all, "Are there any questions?" My friend and I would raise our hands, and ask it. A few times, the lesson would be on the subject of the priesthood, and the teacher would give the lame answers from the lesson manual. I remember our favorite teacher ended that lesson, with a great deal of self-staisfaction, that he had answered our question. But, sure enough, even after an hour of explanations, he asked who would like to give the closing prayer. I raised my hand, and he called on me: "But...WHY can't women have the priesthood?"

Truly, the first question I ever asked was the same question that the OP asked, about the golden plates being "taken up into heaven." I hadn't been baptized yet. I had been raised on the Bible, and my parents had read all the Bible stories to me, plus I had read these on my own. Never had I heard of anything being "taken up into heaven." I wondered "How"? Did anyone see an angel or something come and take them away? Or were angels like Santa Claus--if you tried to spy on them, they would hide or disappear. Did they leave the plates overnight somewhere, and find them "gone" in the morning? How did they know someone didn't just steal them? Did the angel leave a receipt, to reassure JS that the plates were in the right hands? I always got the same "ya gotta develop faith" answer, and the "too sacred for human eyes" answer. There was also broader Mormon "All will be revealed in the next life" answer.

I didn't get a real "inkling", until I was at BYU, and 18-year-old adult, and I was still asking these same old questions....

I tried hard to go along with all the church stuff until the temple indoctrination came along with the it's "Sacred not Secret" speech. Once I entered the temple, the little play and the strange rituals kind of hit me over the head with it's "Silly and Secret".

When I finally realized that the presence of Jesus Christ was primarily in the church name only.

First inkling it wasn't what I thought it was, was the death oaths in the temple.....it felt really weird and creepy, but I ignored it. I was inactive all through my teens and only got active about 6 months before I went on a mission at 22 yrs old so I wasn't a die hard believer. I figured if it turned out the church was indeed true, it would be fine. If it wasn't, then I was under no obligation to the oaths I just swore to.

The first inkling that the church was not true was reading a Greek mythology story for a class at BYU. I had been reading some of the Tanner's stuff but I wasn't sure. As I read the mythology story about visitations from the gods, etc....the thought that came to mind was...why should I believe this story of godly intervention and less than the mormon story? At that moment I knew they were all mythology and no one was truer than another. I quite for good 2 years into my degree, keep low and finished up 2 years later.

Actually, my first inkling would have been at about 7 years old when my dad laid out the plan of mormonism to me and told me I had to believe it. I knew I wasn't here to be a mormon. Being faced with the life he described scared me. That's why I rebelled and pushed back until my parents eventually let me drift into inactivity at 13 years old.

Finding out JS has plural wives that were teenagers or already married.

None of the explanations for polygamy I heard remotely justified those unions. I immediately thought when I found this out that if true he was not a prophet, or at best a fallen prophet. Looking into it further revealed the stuff now found in the CES letter.

Wally Prince Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I never forgot that disappointment.
>
> It never stopped nagging at me. Somehow it always
> seemed "too convenient" that the amazing golden
> plates were "taken away".

Mormonism has to rank high in the religious scams of human history.

The organization is headed by a surgeon and a judge and they both try to pass actual history from a non-existent ancient text from a source that was both provided for and taken away by an angel. There is more credibility in citing the text of a charlatan writing about experiences in his own time than citing ancient history from The Book of Mormon yet these same people support their defenders in throwing shade on detractors quoted from their own Mormon History as "lying."


Hmmmm.

Probably reading the BoM as a kid and thinking it was a fantasy book right away and reading the bible verses in 2 Nephi made no sense either. Don't think I really believed like everyone else did from the get go.

When I was around 10, the dentist’s office had bible story books full of EXTREMELY miraculous happenings. I the thought I had at the time stayed with me.
“Why doesn’t stuff like that happen now?”
Then when I found out in college (an Institute teacher)
that there were multiple versions of the first vision story...I was done.

My mission really provided my first real WTF!?!? moments for me.

I was actually pretty happy in the church as a youth. I had some really good youth leaders (who I continue to regard very highly in spite of my disaffection from the church). I had a good group of friends, church dances, all of that. I went to seminary and bought into the whole Mormon thing all the way. I think it also helped a lot that I grew up outside of the Morridor where the Mormon kids were in the minority (grew up in Snohomish, WA)

They say that you don't ever want to see how the sausage is actually made... well that was the mission experience for me. What I expected going in were miracles, the gathering of Israel, the spirit calling out the elect, stone rolling forth, all of that crap. What it turned out to be in actuality was nothing more than a sleazy sales job where we were taught how to give evasive answers, play on emotions, we had sales targets and all of that. The best missionaries weren't the ones that were humble, obedient, honest, knowledgeable, or any of that. The best missionaries were the used car salesmen. And there was definitely a hierarchy there and missionaries shamelessly kissing the MP's ass to try to move up the ladder, etc.

As much as I hated my mission, I stuck with the church another 19 years after coming home. I have said many times that my mission planted the seeds for my eventual departure. I already had serious doubts about how the modern church is operated. But I still believed in the Book of Mormon and the historical basis of the church. Once I realized that was crap as well, leaving was easy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2018 04:19PM by Strength in the Loins.

For me it was the Missionary Training Center (MTC). Going through the temple for the first time was beyond weird - so weird that I quickly blocked most of it out and didn't even want to think about it. But for some reason the MTC experience was much more disturbing because for the first time I saw the church as a business, and that to me was more unsettling than the weirdness of the temple and the Mormon church. Weird didn't bother me but the church as a business/corporation REALLY bothered me.

In the MTC we dressed in business attire and practiced our sales pitch, i.e. discussions. I didn't see much difference between the MTC and an IBM sales conference. I was learning how to sell the church. The general authorities gave us pep talks to sell, sell, sell! It felt so wrong, and on my shelf it went.

I often wonder if I'd still be TBM if I hadn't gone on a mission.

The made-up falseness of receiving the priesthood via an angle, and even that they felt they need this "power" to be the boss--more blessed--than all women.

When I was nine or 10, I read an article in a national magazine about blacks and the priesthood. That didnt go over well with me as my parents were in favor of civil rights.

The upside down pentagrams in the temple when I went for my endowments seemed odd as hell, but my dad was okay with it all so, whatever. The pantomiming of the throat slitting and the gutting yourself didn't bother me at all. Everyone I trusted was there doing it. Besides, I was never going to reveal the secrets I was about to learn anyway.

When I finally made it through the curtain at the end my thought was that there had been nothing new except for some secret handshakes which were pretty pedestrian. Otherwise it was all like some glorified Sacrament Meeting and the Peggy Lee song "Is That All There Is?" started playing in my head. Seriously.

I never came across an inkling I couldn't "turn off like a light switch." I never doubted the church for a single second in twenty three years. I went from complete faith in the church to none at all in a matter of seconds.

I was let down, but no doubts occurred. I always blamed myself anyway for not "getting" what was going on.



I am in awe of all of those who were already questioning and considering at such young ages. I seem to have been the perfect dupe. If SWK hadn't written that awful book that tipped me off I might still be in.

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The upside-down pentagrams in the temple when I
> went for my endowments seemed odd as hell...

As well they should, since they were borrowed by Joe and his pals and handlers from a hellish tradition.

They lifted the Masonic mummery from printed and spoken stuff heard in the lodges, mostly word for word.

They even latched onto the the grips. These thumbs on various knuckles are straight out of the Order's rebungnified rites.

And, to boot, Mormons have inverted devil-stars on temple walls.

Have a go for them endowments, if you dare!

Pretty quick after baptism. Money,money,money,fast offering, tithing settlement and back then we had assessment for chapel building.

Probably one of the first things was when the building of City Creek Mall was announced and then, when it was finished, the first presidency standing there together with their giant pair of scissors to cut the ribbon and exclaiming: “Let’s go shopping!”

physically and mentally when that happened.

I only recently stumbled across a video of the event. As jaded and cynical as I am about ChurchCo, they still managed to surprise me with that stunt.

"Let's go shopping!" the Prophet and the Apostles of the Lord exclaimed in unison as the Holy Ghost prompted and inspired them.

Meanwhile, back in the Old Testament:

And, behold, Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written. And when he came upon the multitude and saw them dancing lasciviously around the golden calf that they had made to worship, he became angry. Shouting loudly to be heard above the din, he pointed at the tablets and admonished them, saying: "Do you not know that there is a big sale that doth provideth up to 50% off on high quality merchandise at the Sinai Mall, and yet ye wasteth time dancing around this calf in sin? Cease this frivolity for the Lord hath spoken through me and I to you: Let's go shopping!"

Brilliant!

The spirit of comedy and truth is really flowing through you this morning.

when I was 2 or 3 I some my parents wear the masonic underwear. I knew that would never happen to me. IT HASN'T !!!! I saw the sears catalog and saw real underwear. (we don't live in Utah) I never got too involved with the cult. That was my first inkling. I'm glad I found out when I was a toddler. Saved me from a lot crap that many exmo's have lived.

parents' big underwear.

They would look at the clothesline behind the non-Mormon neighbors' house and see pathetically small underwear. Then they would look back at the huge underwear flapping on the clothesline behind their own home and feel a surge of pride, knowing that their parents had the biggest underwear in the neighborhood. Big enough to make a parachute for a squirrel. The Mormon kids lived in a home that had the fullness of underwear. Surely it was a source of comfort for many Mormon children.

I was in tears reading this. I just read it to a couple of people in the office after explaining what garments were and they were all howling. You should know you really started the day off right for a few people.

No more Angel Chapel. Garments will now forever be known as "Squirrel Parachutes" in my vocabulary.

Masonic rituals at the temple.

President Hinckley's interview on 60 minutes. I knew he lied and denied facts about church doctrine.

Yes, that was quite deflating and disappointing, although he had already established a reputation as a manager rather than a prophet. It seemed that there was always more and more of his egotistical nonsense to explain.

On a lighter note, there was something quite comical about his amoral eagerness to impress the top media people. He didn't seem to realize that they were using him more than he was using them.

Mine happened in Relief Society. In the 70's. At a homemaking activity in our ward in St.Louis. Our "activity" was making signs against the Equal Rights Amendment. These signs were then going to be taken by us riding on a bus over to the Illinois state capitol to protest their vote to ratify the ERA amendment. I had MAJOR disagreement with this! I kept thinking, "what is wrong with women having equal rights??" I kept this all to myself. I made up some excuse and did not go to the protest.

Oh Come on !!! that did not happen!!! The (MORmON) church does NOT do political stuff!!!! Gordon BS Hinckley even said so !!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chkSWt3KiMY

and then my family gets mad at me when I tell them that their MORmON leaders LIE endlessly and continually !!!!

I didn't really look into what was going on with ERA, but I had neighbors who went to SLC for some big event about the ERA. I was probably in high school at the time. There were so many things I just ignored.

The priesthood ban always bothered me. I was working at Thiokol when they changed it. My then and now boyfriend came up to my desk to tell me about it, asked how I felt. I said, "Finally!" He was shocked (nonmormon) as he thought I was so mormon, I'd have a problem with it.

I think my first real inkling was working with nonmormons at Thiokol. I had been taught that they were heathens and if I associated with them, they would lead me into a life of depravity. Now is that the right word. I swear they said that word all the time.

Some of the best people I've ever known were these nonmormons I met at Thiokol. And the mormon men (the good guys and I mean good guys) taught me that all people are good. These mormon men were the cream of the crop and also opened my eyes up to real life. They couldn't understand why I wouldn't marry the nonmormon I'm in a long-term relationship now back then. It just took us another 27 years to get back together.

But, as usual, it took the gay thing to knock me out into left field, but it took me 23 years after I found out he is gay to finally figure it out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2018 10:23AM by cl2.

The temple was a major let down. It took me a long time to stop blaming myself for questioning myself for not feeling "edified". Very little made sense and I was never ready to covenant to give away my humor.

On to missions. Terrible! As others have said, it's a used car salesmen's ploy. Sell your charm, personality and lies to convert. Extroverts excelled and introverts struggled to figure out why god hated them. Our all time mission record was set by Elder Glory. He baptized 60+ people in a 3 week span. He could do no wrong and the rest of us could do nothing right.

Eventually, I got transferred to a closer area to where these modern day miracles occurred. That's when I realized that the church is great about omitting pesky facts that would otherwise ruin a perfect faith promoting tale. First, Elder Glory really didn't follow silly missionary rules. Tracting, going to meetings wasn't really his style. So Glory set up his own basketball league; playing hoops everyday sans P-day. Such was the cost to play in his league; get baptized and go to the branch meeting. And here I had companion that apologized to the lord for chewing gum during our companionship prayer.

The last thing was running out of the BoM supply and being told to "go easy" because the mission (stateside) wouldn't get a fresh shipment of church supplies for 2.5 months. Pretty bad for a business organization.

(I suspect every mission had several Elder Glory types.)

This guy seriously looked like a top Hollywood movie star. Like Gregory Peck in his prime, only better looking than that.

As a missionary, he should have been a total flop. It was a foreign language mission and he was horrible at learning the language.

But he was the top baptizer in the mission. Our mission was tough. Most struggled to get a total of 7 or 8 baptisms during their entire 2-year mission. But he was often getting dozens a month.

I never served in his area, but I remember one day when I was at the mission home, they were doing baptisms at the ward that was next door to the mission home and he was there doing a triple play (three baptisms on the same day). I slipped in to see the legendary baptizer...and the secret of his success was somewhat revealed to me.

The first thing that jumped out at me as I entered the area near the baptismal font was that it was jam packed with high-school girls. Then I saw him baptize three high-school girls in a row (all of whom had apparently begged, pleaded and ultimately obtained permission from their parents).

I think Donny Osmond would have been envious of this guy's success in "spreading the gospel."

I knew right then and there that prayer, fasting, pondering the scriptures, studying the language and memorizing the discussions were all completely irrelevant to being a "successful" missionary.

Actually, we had several other Elder Glory types, but they were the high-pressure, back-slapping, "let me help you write the check" salesman types. They weren't as successful as Elder Gregory Peck in total numbers (his "girls" almost baptized themselves just to make him smile), but the salesman guys had more baptizees who weren't high-school girls.

My first instinct when I was taught by the missionaries at the age of 15 was that they were nuts and what they were telling me was crazy. I should have followed that first instinct.

But I had so many adults telling me how lucky I was to be taught the truth, that I guess that instinct was eventually overrode. (Overridden? Overrode? LOL)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2018 12:16PM by Greyfort.

When my parents would have family scripture study, even as young as 9 or 10, something about the repetitiveness of the Book of Mormon with all it's "it came to pass," seemed a little fishy. I would continue to suppress doubts until I was 39.

As a convert, I noticed the other converts...

one lady only showed up when she wanted the Missionaries to help her move (time and again)

others were heavy smokers, jobless, car-less, seemed to be broken, lonely, etc.

I compared myself--is this who I am?

And yeah, the Missionary who Baptized me was gorgeous, as you say
Elder Glory" ...did that influence me?

Ouch, honesty hurts, doesn't it???



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2018 01:29PM by mel.

As a child, I remember a Sunday School lesson about following the prophet. The teacher said something along the lines that even if he told us to do something that seemed wrong, we should do it. Some other kid said, "Even if he said to jump off a cliff?" The teacher said, "Yes, obey the prophet. He knows what is best."

This seemed scary even as a clueless child. I didn't want to die, ever! Later I rationalized that was OK because the prophet would never ask us to do anything bad like that.

Everyone else was always talking about this "burning in the bosom" thing and "feeling the spirit." I was never able to experience this feeling, but not for lack of trying. I suppose a part of me followed the experiment to the conclusion and accepted the answer I got. "Pray to find out if the church is true." I prayed, and the result seemed to be telling me the church was not true. But it took me years to finally accept this conclusion that I had hidden and repressed.

at age 10 when I prayed repeatedly in selected secluded spots to ask about which church was the true one, just like Joseph Smith had (supposedly) done, and in my case NOTHING happened. THERE WAS MY ANSWER!!!!