Since I am out of the church I now look at all the stake and ward buildings in Utah and consider them multi million dollar businesses, each and every one.

Any of you men who served in bishoprics able to recall the amount of tithing a solid, high attendance Utah ward would pull in during a year? I'm sure the figures are larger than most would expect.

I was a ward clerk and the bishop I worked with really wasn't all that concerned about finances. I had to constantly get on him to have the receipts, invoices and leases we needed filed so I wouldn't catch hell from the stake auditors. Also I had to get on the bishop constantly to sign paperwork.

From my perspective as a ward clerk bishops deal with the people of the ward. Interviews take up a huge amount of the bishop's time and he's the go to man for everything at the ward level.

As far as how much tithing comes through a ward I was financial clerk for a year and then I became ward clerk and then I became executive secretary. I dealt with donations of all sorts including tithing and the fast offerings.

Not all tithing came through the ward. Many members would pay their tithing directly to Salt Lake especially the higher income members. I would say on average we would see $5,000 a week come through the clerk's office for tithing, fast offerings, missionary fund ect. I was amazed at how many members donated to the Perpetual Education Fund.

I can also say the fast offerings helped many non-members in the ward boundaries with rent, medical expenses and utilities.

The church believes in keeping good records and having everything in good order. I was pretty impressed with the church financial people I dealt with. They were as competent and professional as anyone I worked with in the corporate world if not more so.

All I can say is the church runs a tight ship as far as the financial side of things. I can't tell you what happens with the tithing money.

Yes, i considered that it would be difficult to really calculate the total tithe numbers considering how many people directly transfer funds to LDS HQ or send a check direct to LDS HQ.

Thanks for the information.

Rubicon Wrote,
>
> I can also say the fast offerings helped many non-members in the ward boundaries with rent, medical expenses and utilities.

I’m surprised they help non-members, I do know of one couple in our ward who told me they were receiving $600 per month in rent support and had been for years. They weren’t even active and only came every third week or so. So I guess there aren’t many strings attached to these gifts if you can either be a non member or pretty inactive to receive this help.

A lot of members here report receiving zero help when they really needed it. Lots of variation apparently.

Wards differ a lot. Our ward was a mix of upper middle class, middle class, and poor areas. Who get's assistance is up to the discretion of the bishop. We had very generous members so we always had plenty of money in the fast offerings account to help people with.

Maybe in some wards the money is tight or the bishop is less willing to help people.

I did get help and I was inactive for years. I went to the bishop because my brother's MIL was getting help. She was an alcoholic, hadn't been to church in years, had burned through a $100,000 inheritance in a short amount of time, and was in jail for beating up her boyfriend, but she was getting help.

One of my ex's nonmember boyfriends was getting help.

The bishop was not kind when I went to ask for help. He lightened up a bit later.

So I told the single mothers I worked with to ask for help, at the very least food. Not one of them got help.

It seems that they take care of the nonmembers more than members. I believe it is a missionary tool. These aren't my only examples.

cl2 Wrote:

> So I told the single mothers I worked with to ask for help, at the very least food. Not one of them got help.

Maybe it is only women who don't get help (the bishop thinks you should be married) and if a guy needs help he deserves it but if a woman needs help it is because she "should" have a husband?

I never asked for help but I think it is very unfair if you are a tithing member and then sometime need help, you won't get it but a non-member who has never even paid into the church, might.

It's all up to the bishop. Some can be real jerks. Other's can be more empathetic. Not everything is micromanaged in the church. In fact I found how each ward in our stake managed their clerk offices widely differed.

I was a finance clerk for at least 2 years, the very last church job I had before I left in 1997.
It was at least 2 hours every Sunday and I couldn't do it alone; there was always someone there to watch me and help count.

We'd make the totals and then after the paperwork was done, we called "Wells Fargo", some kind of finance section with a live person who was there on Sundays to take the information. All we gave them was a grand total which was reported to "headquarters".

This was before the days of personal computers, although we backed up the information on a large size floppy disk and I had to keep that with me until the next time. It stayed in the back cover slot of my Triple Combination. About the only thing I used it for, god knows it didn't read it.

Then my helper and I would take the deposit to the local bank (in my case, it was Draper Bank on 7th East about 9000 So. in Sandy.)

I don't remember the annual totals although it always surprised me the amount that people gave each week/month etc. Some weeks were very busy, some less so.

I worked with one of the counselors in the bishopric. I would always pop into the clerk's office right after sacrament meeting and start working on the reimbursements and then the counselor would come in with the tithing. Everyone wanted to get the heck out of the church building ASAP. Haha! Sometimes we were really busy on Sundays and we would be there several hours after.

Then of course were the audits. I remember I had a anal retentive auditor who wasted three hours of my time going over stuff he really didn't need to. He didn't like how we filed things and he didn't like our forms we used. Just a guy looking for something to write down.

There are some real assholes in the church.

Rubicon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> There are some real assholes in the church.

Got that right.

Here you have a clerk job that involves endless work and then there is some stake auditor that pride himself in being so picky about the smallest details. Nobody, but nobody ever puts these guys in their place.

messygoop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rubicon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > There are some real assholes in the church.
>
> Got that right.
>
> Here you have a clerk job that involves endless
> work and then there is some stake auditor that
> pride himself in being so picky about the smallest
> details. Nobody, but nobody ever puts these guys
> in their place.

He was just a type A dweeb who got off on his authority. Not only was he running me through the wringer he was enjoying running our bishop through the wringer.

The other auditors didn't do this.

Let me say this about the LDS Church. If you put as much time and money into another organization you would get more appreciation and thank you's. In the LDS Church you are never good enough. You never get a thank you from the organization. You might from and individual member but the church itself wants you to sacrifice more and more and more!

The ward I was in, one year sent something like $235,000.00 to SLC. We got back about $3500 for our Ward programs

Almostgoneone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The ward I was in, one year sent something like
> $235,000.00 to SLC. We got back about $3500 for
> our Ward programs

This right here is what’s wrong and why if you’re going to be in a church at all, any other will have more fun activities and actual nice social things that are community building. Not even a 10% return.

between the amount of God tax that a ward pays to SLC versus what they get back.

When the Church owns the building and land, there is no monthly rent to pay.

At the ward level, everything is free/volunteer label, so no salary or labor costs are incurred.

It boils down to routine utility (gas, electric, water) fees and maintenance fees (replacing a burnt out air conditioning unit).

If there are around a couple dozen middle-middle-class families and/or individuals paying 10% of their gross income as tithing, it seems like that amount typically would be waaaaaaay more than the annual upkeep expenses for the church-owned building.

No wonder they're so busy apparently laundering tithed money through the temple construction program. And who knows what else, since there is close to zero transparency.

But, hey....as President Monson admonished us all: "Let's go shopping!"

The whole annual ward budget of about $12,000 came from the equivalent of one guy's tithing from a $120,000 income. All the other tithing in the ward, maybe $750,000, went to Salt Lake. There was never enough money for the ward, and leaders often had to use their own money. It was a complete rip-off of the local people in the ward. I was the ward clerk.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2019 10:17PM by wmellerychanning.

Omg is all I can say. I figured they took a lot but that is ridiculous.

And that explains why they make the richest men the bishops if they use their own money to help the hard up ward!

and ask them to itemize what they actually get in exchange for their annual tithing payment, and separate the items into two categories: (i) things that you can see and touch; (ii) things that entirely abstract.

For example, for $12,000 this year, Mr. Morgbot, you obtained the following:

(1) The opportunity to sit on benches and chairs in a church-owned building (usually air-conditioned or heated, as appropriate).
(2) The opportunity to read aloud selected passages from scriptures (separately paid for by you) in groups of people.
(3) A small piece of bread and a thimble of water each week.
(4) The opportunity to go into another church-owned building to dress up in a weird costume and do strange handshakes.
(5) The opportunity to watch on TV some overpaid guys in suits (whom you've never met personally) pat themselves on the back for being especially favored servants of God.

Those are the most tangible items.

Less tangible benefits:

(1) Trite and boring platitudes about "correct living" from guys who claim to be morally superior to you and claim to be your leader.
(2) Occasional dissertations by self-proclaimed leaders/authorities about the meaning of life and the nature of the hereafter that may or may not be true and may or may not be disclaimed and rejected by future leaders/authorities.

++++++

I think I could think of much better ways to use $12,000.

above, I'll arrange for you to do it all at my house and I'll do it for 50% of the amount you would ordinarily pay to the LSD Church.

For example, if you would otherwise be paying $18,000 to the LSD Church for those items, you can come to my house and substantially get the same items (roughly speaking) for only $9,000.

I will sit down with you and read passages from the scriptures. I will sit down with you and read from old lesson manuals.
I will give you a piece of bread and a thimble of water...and I'll even pray over it before giving it to you.

But wait! There's more!

I will dress up in weird costumes with you and join you in doing some goofy handshakes, after which I will pull you through the shower curtain into the main bath area, which we will call the "Celestial Room". I will also scold you for being too loud.

But wait! There's even more!!

I will sit you down on a comfortable folding chair and then I will climb up on a step stool, look down on you, and scold you for an hour about how you need to do more to please god.

So...what do you have to lose?? I'm offering you all the same crap at half the price! Plus, if you act now, I will throw in a "patriarchal blessing" for no additional charge. Will you have a good life? Meet a good husband or wife? Will you be from the tribe of Ephraim or Woody or Pee Wee. Be sure to lock in your free PB by acting now!! NOW!

It's what you need. It's what you want. It's what you should get NOW!

*Unemployed people are not eligible to participate in this promotion, unless they are willing to pay the minimum annual sign-up fee of $5,000.

**Eternal salvation is not guaranteed. But will be discussed.

***The EZ-Boy recliner chair is reserved for premium customers ($20,000 or greater annual fee payers). All others use sturdy and reasonably comfortable folding chairs.

Was the ward clerk (not in Utah though) and had to cover the financial clerk when he was out of town. The ward collected somewhere between 150k-200k+. Ward probably got back 8k, but there was an attendance stipulation that my bishop constantly dreaded (which explains why he fought me over my honest attendance count). Ward budget was tight. Scouts and YW always had to request for donations.

Attendance stipulation? Too many absent and they’d cut the budget???

Yup. A ward's budget is determined by the percentage of the members who attend meetings.

Here is a link of attendance.

http://tech.lds.org/wiki/Quarterly_Report

Interesting question - so I looked ours up.


2018 Tithing: ~$495,000

That does not include several members paying directly to HQ. So, that number would be closer to ~$600,000 - $650,000. We have a lot of high money makers in the Ward...

Fast Offerings: ~$33,000
Budget: ~$13,000.

During Tithing Settlement, we don't even print off their form; it's a good time to meet with the members and see how they are doing. If they come or pay 1 cent - we record them as full-tithe payers. It does make my stomach turn over when I see how much is sent back to HQ and how much we retain...

Long time no post...
Blot

Blot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That does not include several members paying directly to HQ.

I tithed online only but my ward always gave me an accounting of that amount so somehow they do get counted to the ward as far as I could tell.

> Fast Offerings: ~$33,000
> Budget: ~$13,000.

This is really strange because when I joined I was told that the fast offering remains in the Ward for the Bishop's discretionary use. Looks like that was a lie along with everything else.

> If they come or pay 1 cent - we record them as full-tithe
> payers.

Interesting. That explains why I wasn't given the third degree over my (fairly obvious) failure to pay 10% (I paid every month but not 10%, more like 3% on (net) income.

Very interesting, Blot, thanks for your comment!

attended including the singles' ward. He never told me how much they took in.

I did work with guys who earned a lot of money at Thiokol (space shuttle solid rocket motors). They had stocks that they contributed to the lds church for their tithing. That money never went through the ward clerks.

Just a little interesting note. I met my boyfriend at Thiokol in 1978 and dated him then, too. He was just telling me last night that Israel just sent something to the moon. I don't know what they call them now. It was built by ATK, which used to be Thiokol.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2019 08:41AM by cl2.

Tithing was one of the topics on my shelf. Rather than pay tithing I could take care of my families needs instead of giving it to the church and then begging the bishop for help. Why beg. Just pay a $100 a year or near zero. If the Lord heard my prayers then surely the inspired Bishop would be informed about his flock. No such luck. Some relative of mine thought for sure I'd become doomed to hell if I didn't pay up. Years have gone by and this hell's angel is doing just fine keeping all of my paycheck for my needs.

Middle income ward in southeast Idaho. Early 2000's. $500,000 to SLC.

Three wards in our building. So $1.5 to $2 million from our building is my estimate.

snowednomore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Three wards in our building. So $1.5 to $2 million from our building is my estimate.

So all that money sent in and you still had to 'triple-use' your building, they couldn't built another ward? Ridiculous much?

I was always amazed at what fast offerings would be used for. I agree with what many have already said, that those on the fringes or outright non-members stood to benefit the most from fast offerings.

I was financial clerk in a singles ward for a while. I found it a little frustrating how people’s fast offerings were being used. I remember one guy whose cell phone bill we paid almost every month. Not a basic cell service mind you, this one had all the bells and whistles, a very pricy option at the time. There was another guy who’s rent was paid in full every month for as long as I can remember, probably at least 2 years that I know of. At the time, many of the singles in the ward lived in shared apartments to reduce costs. Not this guy though, it was an upper middle cost apartment all to himself. He was one of the fringe members, and I think the bishop was just trying to keep him attending on a semi-regular basis. The problem was there was no plan for him to ever become self sufficient, and no attempt from him either. It was around this time that I stopped with LDS fast offerings, and looked into other charitable programs.

Can think of many reasons the bishop personally would want to keep someone quiet, er uh, I mean supported.

Anonymous989 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was always amazed at what fast offerings would be used for. I agree with what many have already said, that those on the fringes or outright non-members stood to benefit the most from fast offerings.

Yes, it does make you wonder if they were someone's relatives, or 'being kept quiet' or just had some magic charisma to get this support? While other regular and non-fringe members are left to beg, apparently.

I never asked for anything but it annoyed me when I saw the support going to people who, as you say, did not even attempt to become self-sufficient, content to ride on minimal employment or government support and keep collecting from the church. And probably if this church stopped paying they would just go to another. Now I only contribute to charities for animals and wildlife protection. And RfM naturally!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2019 10:19PM by mel.

I was a Ward Clerk for ~20 of my ~30 years as a member of the Church.

I was always the Clerk because I was one of the few literate members of many wards.

A Clerk can hide in plain sight. I could serve at my own pace without promoting Church doctrine or practices I didn't support. Sure, the Ward Clerk should attend the temple... but don't press Brother Idleswell on it too much because a really reliable Clerk is irreplaceable.

A Clerk learns what the Church's true priority is: money (if we all didn't know that already). How often is anyone below a Stake President called from SLC about his calling? Just miss a tithing deposit because of a snow date to become suddenly popular with Financial Services at Church Headquarters.

Tithing surprises:

1. A brother brought in a tithing cheque for more money than I had earned in my entire life to that point. I suspect he was given the ultimatum "If you want to attend afamily event at the temple, then you need to bring your tithing up to date."

"Will $100k cover it?" (Yep.)

2. A sister brought in vegetables from her garden as her tithing. Tithing in kind is not accepted now.

Ward budgets:

Many posters here lament about the "trivial amounts" returned to wards from tithing collected. There was a time when wards received NOTHING from SLC.

Ward budgets are based on sacrament meeting attendance. Hence, bishops desire to get everybody as near to sacrament meeting as possible. Wards receive a bonus for children, youth, single adults and other auxiliaries. However, the bonus amounts are insignificant (say $1/month for a youth) too actually do anything within the ward.

Building maintenance is handled by the Stake. Since those funds come from tithing, the Stake budget should be considered as well as funds for activities.

Stakes used to pay for building custodians. Now members are expected to maintain buildings. When members clean their own mess petty vandalism diminishes.

If this were my decision, I would send enough funds to wards to hire a custodian but give the option to handle the tasks within the ward and use the funds for activities.

Fast offerings:

Bishops' discretion over fast offerings vary widely - too widely to even qualify as "inconsistent." My experience is that as many members, less actives or people from the community reject the Church as any bishop refuses.

People expecting money from the Church will be disappointed. The most anyone can expect is to be reimbursed for expenses, never cash.

A needs assessment is supposed to precede any assistance. Many people find the interviews intrusive.

Former Bishopric Member. Outside Mordor. 125-130 sacrament meeting attendance. 400+ members on books.
$400-500,000 Tithes and offerings to TSCC per ward. This is with 10-12 families carrying most of the freight- tithes and callings.
2 wards in building.
About 10% back to ward to run the whole show soup to nuts. Building, maintenance, ward budgets and all. And that might be high. So about $1 million revenue per building.
I expect Mordor wards are higher.

And guess who's at the top of the pyramid.

Hint: It's not me and it's probably not you.

Instead of being built around the sale of some hyped-up cosmetic or skin-care "product" while actually being nothing more than bringing in more and more people to pay sign-up fees that flow to the top, the LSD Church is built around some hyped-up religious product (consisting of nothing but hot air).

The key difference is that in an MLM scheme, some of the people below the top of the pyramid, but relatively high compared to other levels can have some hope of benefiting. In the LSD church all of the benefits pretty much stay right at the top and get distributed to the friends and relatives of the guys at the top.

Wally Prince Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Instead of being built around the sale of some hyped-up cosmetic or skin-care "product" ....

Interesting analogy, Wally, thank you.

Made me remember what I heard about some cosmetic company which gave out pink cadillacs to the highest earning salesladies...in big conferences where other rewards would also be given out, with much fanfare and hoopla.

Whereas all LSD gives is the old white suit-wearing men sitting soberly listening to boring speeches with the occasional female thrown in....no rewards here!