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Posted by: srichardbellrock ( )
Date: March 21, 2019 08:25PM

Also published here: https://unexaminedfaith.blogspot.com/2019/03/put-paid-to-lie-equal-treatment-of-lds.html *the version in the blog contains references, footnotes, hyperlinks.
Please enjoy, comment, and if you are so inclined, please share.

(Rather than accept the terminology widely accepted by gay persons themselves, the LDS Church typically uses its own term to describe LGB persons, “Same Sex Attracted,” or (SSA). In this post I will generally eschew the label placed upon our LGB brothers and sisters by the Church, and simply use the more common “LGB,” or “gay.”)

Recently, in the midst of a conversation about gay relatives, a co-worker casually mentioned that the Church treats its “same sex attracted” members in exactly the same way it treats its heterosexual members. It is a sentiment that we have heard from LDS leaders and publications, from friends and family, and on social media. The Church, it is said, only holds its SSA members to the same standards as it does its hetero members —all are expected to be equally obedient to the law of chastity. This, according to many a sincere believer, is equal treatment for LGB and hetero members.

Let’s put paid to that lie right now.

When I attended the temple prior to doing the mission, I “covenanted” to obey the law of chastity. What I agreed to was to not “have sexual intercourse except with [my] wife to whom [I was] legally and lawfully wedded.” The most recent revisions have attendees covenanting that “the women of my kingdom and the men of my kingdom shall have no sexual relations except with those whom they have legally and lawfully wedded according to my law.” So to live the Law of Chastity, sex has to be restricted to within the confines of legal marriage.

If same sex marriage does not exist, then in a sense it is true to say that LGB and hetero members are equally expected to not have sex outside of marriage.

With the legalization of same sex marriage, holding LGB members to the same standard would imply, at minimum, accepting that same sex couples having sexual relations with their partners with whom they are “legally and lawfully wedded” are not violating the law of chastity.

Having historically been on the receiving end of persecution for practicing a form of marriage that was both not legally recognized and not accepted by society at large, one might be forgiven for tenaciously hoping (though not expecting) that the Church would be empathetic to marginalized group likewise being discriminated against for hoping to practice a form of marriage not legally recognized and not accepted by society at large.

However, instead of accepting that married LGB members are not violating the law of chastity, (at least) two salient things occurred that diminish the case for the Church’s earnestness in its ostensible equal treatment of hetero and LGB members.
First, at the behest of the First Presidency , the Church led the fight to try to ensure that same sex marriage not be legalized. In the fight to “protect marriage” in California, 80-90% of canvassers and some 50% of money raised came from the LDS.

Second, just months after the Supreme Court in the US legalized gay marriage, the Church quietly revised its Handbook of Instructions to explicate that same sex marriage is a form of apostasy requiring discipline, and made it official policy to exclude the children of same sex married parents from full participation in the Church, denying these children what it believes to be necessary saving ordinances, until the age of 18 when they could renounce their parents relationship.

In fact, The Church has gone so far as to call for a constitutional amendment defining marriage as only between opposite sex partners.

If LGB members were being held to the same standards as hetero members, with the legalization of same sex marriage, married LGB couples would not be violating the Law of Chastity. The reaction of the Church to the gay marriage issue indicates that the Church does not even want the possibility of having to hold its LGB members to an equal standard. The fact that the Church reacted the way it did, to try to block marriage equality and redefine marriage equality as apostasy is one way that the Church broadcasts its disingenuousness when it asserts that LGB members are held to the “same standard.”
The above raises an obvious question as to why the Church would be so adamant in its opposition to the legal acceptance of same sex marriage.

The answer is found in an official communication from the Church, “The Divine Institution of Marriage,” issued in response to the fight for marriage equality in California.
The communication starts by quoting the Church’s Proclamation on the Family: “Marriage is sacred and was ordained of God from before the foundation of the world.”

A majority of the piece is focused on the procreative role marriage:

"From the beginning, the sacred nature of marriage was closely linked to the power of procreation. After creating Adam and Eve, God commanded them to “be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth…” Only a man and a woman together have the natural biological capacity to conceive children. This power of procreation—to create life and bring God’s spirit children into the world—is divinely given. Misuse of this power undermines the institution of the family.
…in almost every culture marriage has been protected and endorsed by governments primarily to preserve and foster the institution most central to rearing children and teaching them the moral values that undergird civilization.
The special status granted marriage is nevertheless closely linked to the inherent powers and responsibilities of procreation and to the innate differences between the genders. By contrast, same-sex marriage is an institution no longer linked to gender—to the biological realities and complementary natures of male and female. Its effect is to decouple marriage from its central role in creating life.
…same-sex marriage…is a far-reaching redefinition of the very nature of marriage itself. It marks a fundamental change in the institution of marriage in ways that are contrary to God’s purposes for His children and detrimental to the long-term interests of society."

From the above text it ought to be self-evident that the Church’s fight was primarily concerned with their own private religious morality—“Divine Institution,” “sacred nature,” “ordained of God,” “Adam and Eve,” “God commanded,” “create life,” “God’s spirit children,” “divinely given,” “God’s purposes. The Church’s choice of language indicates that it is seeking to impose its own private supernaturally derived morality into legislation that would constrain the rights and freedoms of those who do not share its religious values.

But there is, as you read above, a second line of reasoning contained in the article. The Church is asserting that marriage equality will be “detrimental to the long-term interests of society.”

I suppose that a typical reaction to such an assertion (well, mine anyway), would be to suggest that the fact that, at least on the face of it, making the category of marriage and family a little more inclusive ought not negate the value of those already included in the category, that what happens privately in the home of my neighbor has no effect on my family. A carefully stage managed “interview” with Elders Lance B. Wickman and Dallin H. Oaks, intended to put forth the Church’s position on same sex marriage, states that the opposite is true: “What happens in somebody’s house down the street does in very deed have an effect on what happens in my house…”

So what is this detriment of which the article speaks?

On one hand I suppose that there is an alleged spiritual harm for those who are engaging in “sinful” behaviors. However, “sin,” per se, is not the province of governments, and so private religious moralities should not be grounds for legislation. There is scriptural authority for having the Church avoid interference in political matters found in D&C 134: 9.

A second harm is never explicitly stated but is implied by asserting that marriage has (i) “almost” always been about procreation, and that (ii) it is within the family that “the moral values that undergird civilization” are propagated.
Let’s briefly deal with (ii) first. It may be entirely true that the moral values that undergird society are transmitted through the family unit. For the sake of argument, let’s accept that at face value. But even if 100% true, there is a huge lacuna here. The link between the premiss that “families transmit essential values” and the conclusion that “therefore there should be no legal recognition of same sex marriages” is left for the reader to fill in. It is difficult to think how one could move from that premiss to that conclusion, unless, of course, one presumes that same sex parents are somehow less capable or willing to teach the values in question, or that the values that undergird society include the rejection of the legitimacy of same sex relationships. I think it is clear why the essay wants the reader to fill in this unstated (homophobic) assumption for themselves rather than state it explicitly.

The claim that (i) marriage has always been about procreation…

When confronted with the illegal plural “marriages” of Joseph Smith, including “marriages” to women who were already married to other living men , and to girls that were below the average age of puberty for that time, a favored response from apologists for the Church is to suggest that at least some of those “marriages” were not sexual, and were for the purposes of creating “loose dynastic bonds.” Putting aside for the moment that non-sexual plural marriages violate the very purpose of plural marriage as stated in D&C 132—to raise up righteous seed, I find it slightly hypocritical to hold that same sex marriages are immoral because they are not about procreation, while at the same time defending Joseph Smith’s “marriages” as moral by holding that they were not about procreation.

The Utah State legislature, 90% of whom are LDS, passed a law in 1996 allowing first cousins to marry if either they are over 65, or if they are over 55 provided that “either party is unable to reproduce.” The Utah Legislature is not governed by the LDS Church (*stifled snicker*), but the fact that influential Mormons would pass a law in Utah that allows a marriage only on the condition that it is not about procreation, and that the LDS Church did not fight it, at least suggests that the Church’s justification for opposing same sex marriage on the grounds that it is not about procreation is not altogether genuine.

Furthermore, if it not being about procreation really is a moral objection to same sex marriage because it “decouple[s] marriage from its central role in creating life,” then surely the Church ought to be opposed to marriage for people who are infertile, or who indicate that they intend to remain childless, or for seniors who, like President and Sister Nelson, are past their childbearing years at the time of marriage. The fact that the Church does not fight such marriages casts some doubt on the assertion that they oppose same sex marriage on the grounds that it is not about procreation.

What if the Church is correct in their description of same sex marriage, that it decouples marriage from its central procreative role? That, in and of itself does nothing to detract from the value of those couples who have chosen to have children. Exactly nothing.

The Church is advertising its biases by claiming that its opposition to same sex marriage is rooted in it not being about procreation while at the same supporting other types of marriage that no more about procreation than same sex couples.

A faithful member, when reading the above, might counter with the notion that those who marry late in life, or those who are infertile, will have perfected bodies in the resurrection, and thus be able procreate then. That’s as may be, but it is a private religious point of view, and churches ought not try to make those who do not share their privately held religious views conform to those views through legislation.

The essay goes on to state that “[a]nother purpose [for publishing the article] is to reaffirm that the Church has a single, undeviating standard of sexual morality: intimate relations are acceptable to God only between a husband and a wife who are united in the bonds of matrimony.” The Church went out of its way to try to deny marriage equality to our LGB brothers and sisters because it violated that “single, undeviating standard of morality.” If this is the real reason for the Church’s apoplectic response to marriage equality, then where is the equivalent fight to make pre-marital sex illegal? If there is, as they say, “a single, undeviating standard of morality,” then pre-marital sex is a moral and legal equivalent of same sex marriage. That conspicuous lack of a corresponding legal battle lays bare the lie that the Church only wants to hold its hetero and LGB members to the same standard of sexual morality.

The essay mentions one more potential harm: “As governments have legalized same-sex marriage as a civil right, they have also enforced a wide variety of other policies to ensure there is no discrimination against same-sex couples. These policies have placed serious burdens on individual conscience and on religious organizations.” It then lists off ways in which marriage equality requires people or organizations of faith to treat LGB’s that are contrary to said faith. If I may be so bold as to restate that in more common parlance, the essay is saying that being denied the right to discriminate against gays is itself a form of religious discrimination. Dallin H. Oaks has said so on other occasions. This principle is clearly illustrated in the LDS Church endorsed “Utah compromise” law that says that it is wrong to discriminate against LGB’s unless doing so for religious reasons.

I find myself quite unsympathetic to this final alleged harm. I find it about as harmful to religious freedom as being forced to recognize the validity of interracial marriage. Sorry. No sympathy.

Finally, I’d like to suggest that even if the Church is holding LGB and hetero members to the same Law of Chastity, the lived experience of members means that the standard being upheld is very different. “Abstinence” is the correct term for what is required of hetero members, but it doesn’t quite capture what is required of the faithful LGB member. The faithful LGB members is required to commit to lifelong “celibacy,” with no chance of ever being able to fully express their sexuality. To illustrate consider a few elements of my heterosexual experience:

When I was 12, I would have a crush on the cute girl in social studies class. In so doing, did I violate God's law? Was I engaging in "sexual" behavior?

When I was 13 I would daydream about cute girls, wonder what sex was going to be like. Was that engaging in sexual behavior? Was that violating God's law?

When I was 14 I would go to church dances. I would ask the girls to dance with me. And I would be thrilled at the prospect of the slow dances. It was fun to “bear-hug,” and it was funny if a chaperone caught us, and insisted that we stayed “Book of Mormon width apart.” Was I violating the Law of Chastity? Sinning?

At 16 I would go on the occasional date. I would love to enjoy the company of a young lady my age. I thrilled at the prospect of holding her hand. And sneaking a cheeky kiss at the end of the night! Again, was it a violation of God's law? Was I engaging in sexual behavior? If my bishop found out, would he judge me harshly?

At 18 I had a steady girlfriend. She would sometimes accompany to my ward, sometimes I’d go to hers. At church we would hold hands. Before separating for Priesthood and Relief Society, I’d give her a quick kiss. Did anybody look at us with condemnation for unnatural or sinful behaviors?

I intended to marry that girlfriend, post mission, and truth be told, I wanted to shag her senseless. The debate about whether I should give in to temptation and then repent before the mission, or to muzzle that drive and abstain until marriage was a constant internal dialogue. I waited, by the way. In my bursting desire, had I violated any of God’s commands? Was there any doubt that I would be found “worthy” to serve a mission?

After doing a two-year mission for the Church, I was at a stake conference, I saw my future bride for the first time across a crowded room, and my heart skipped a beat. The moment I met her I thought to myself "I could spend the rest of my life with this woman!" While we dated I frequently thought of how wonderful it would be to make love to that beautiful woman. We didn't, we waited. But oh my heck! We thought about it and talked about it! (And we made our marriage work for a couple of decades). Did I need to repent? Was I violating God's law? Was I engaging in sexual behavior?

To all of the above questions, I hope the answer is an unambiguous, clear and resounding "NO!"

It was OK for me to hold hands with a girl at a church dance; how OK will it be for two boys or two girls to hold hands at a church dance? Everything I described above is perfectly acceptable for a hetero member, but denied to our LGB brothers and sisters. If I had not had those experiences growing up, my life would be the poorer. Not just a little bit. My life would be considerably emptier.

If the church is telling its LGB members that it forbids them from engaging in those same behaviors that were a necessary part of the formation of my personal identity, then I take with a grain of salt the claim that it holds gay members to the same standard. The lived experiences of hetero members practicing abstinence and LGB members practicing celibacy are worlds apart.

My heart aches for my gay brothers and sisters who are being denied those wonderful growing learning experiences.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2019 07:32AM by srichardbellrock.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: March 21, 2019 09:23PM

Thank you, srichardbellrock. You have put a very human touch on a big slice of reason. Seems you have left no stone unturned. I for one appreciate the sensitivity of this post on a very deep level and wish all young gay Mormons would read it.


A while ago I wrote what it was like for me as a young gay devoutly Mormon boy. The loss. The limbo. You have captured it by telling us about the formation of your personal identity, as you put it.

For me, it was . . .

Waiting.

Waiting. Yes, I was still always waiting for my life to begin. When you grow up gay in a straight society, you are waiting. When you grow up gay in a straight Mormon society, you are hungry for your turn, and you are scared and ashamed, and you are still waiting.

When you go on a mission for the LDS church, you are waiting. The waiting does not mean that your life is on hold; the waiting is that your life has never begun. And you fear that your life will never begin because you know instinctively that the intricacies of relationships happening for others are not happening for you.

Boys. Boys planning on what to do to their girls after the dance. You. You are not thinking about after the dance, because
you are only thinking about the dance. You love to dance, and that is enough. You are not concerned with maneuvering a hand into a delicate spot on the girl you are dancing with. You are not concerned with pressing a little too hard, hoping to meet pressure returned. You are not obsessed with the breath on your neck. No. It does not even occur to you that there is more to dancing than just step, quick-quick, step, pivot.

And the other boys? They are reading the girls’ bodies with every move. Every minute flex of a muscle forms a conversation. Moving a finger a sixteenth of an inch to a new spot has more power than the most dapper Fred astaire whirl and dip. Those boys are not thinking step, quick-quick, step, pivot. They are not thinking at all about their feet.

Other boys—sharing their secrets about girls. Sometimes you hear them. You know all the words they use, but those words mean something to other boys that they do not to you. You are waiting. You are losing time waiting.

Other boys. Other girls. They are learning life’s lessons while you learn how to fake life, to pretend that you have learned those same lessons, to pretend that you even know what they are talking about. There is a sense of being in the moment to other boys, connecting with one another in their interactions. They are learning a language, a physical language. They are learning the vowels and consonants that will flesh out their lives and let their bodies speak to the girls’ bodies, even to one another. You are not.

Other boys and girls—they learn the intricacies of dating, flirting, friendship. They are building interconnectedness. While they are doing this, do you build another kind of life? Any life at all? No. You spend the same energy building your protection. You are building a wall around your secret. The focus on your secret, on your self-protection, is making you fall behind—your chance at learning the innate nuances of interconnectedness
is slipping away.

The loss of authentic human contact is leaving you in the shadows, trying to learn the body language of the others as one learns to read lips but will never know the joy of sounds that come with the words—the purrs, the whispers, the tones that can melt someone or break them to pieces. The others know things already that you may never learn, as you stand in the periphery observing, time slipping by.

A girl kisses a boy. his eyes drop and his loins rise. A girl kisses you, and you laugh. She is hurt. You are embarrassed because you have hurt her, but also because now she may suspect you. She may figure out that what you are, what you have always been, makes people sick.

I liked girls. I liked them a lot. I had felt the feeling of puppy love, innocent romantic feelings based more on the wanting of love than actually having it. I had crushes on the beautiful girls. I liked when they liked me too. I imagined myself with them—— dancing, laughing, living. I did not imagine more than that. I could not even bear to think what those things would eventually lead to, so I did not.

I hoped for blessings. I hoped for a stronger stomach. I hoped for a sign that I could be with a woman if I had to. I prayed I would never embarrass myself. I prayed just to be normal. But there were no blessings to ease this pain, no blessing of reassurance that I would ever be like...other boys. no blessings to teach me the sounds behind the moving lips, the body language that inspired novels, the craving of female flesh that drove the world.

-----------

What Oaks wishes to deny those Mormon kids is crucial to their happiness. He disgusts me. He gives me sorrow for those poor innocents that will be waiting for their lives to begin.

By the time I got out of that church at 23 I was so far behind, so lacking in any understanding of relationships or the world. The catching up was hard.

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Posted by: bringemyoung ( )
Date: March 22, 2019 03:14AM

It's so sad... how can we tell someone they should be denied love because they love differently?

The LGBT issue was one of the big reasons why I left, I hated seeing my gay friends hurt so much from Mo Inc.

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Posted by: gemini ( )
Date: March 22, 2019 10:21AM

D&D, your post nearly brought me to tears. It made me realize what my former DH must have felt like all those years ago in high school when we started dating. I was safe for him. I was his sister's best friend. He and I were close friends and dating didn't scare him. I was so attracted to him for his intellect, his musical ability on the alto sax, and his ambition. I know I pushed for more romance than he was comfortable with and even that endeared him to me because I thought he was the more righteous one in the relationship. Now I realize more than ever what he must have been wrestling with way back then. His mission was his escape from getting married to me while he tried to sort it all out.

We did get married and it worked..sorta,,,until he could no longer live the lie. He'd covered it up pretty well.

After a few years, we were able to put our relationship in the right category....best friends. He had always considered me as his best friend and that is how he still felt about me when he died.

Thank you for your perspective. Someday I hope I can share it with my TBM kids so they can understand their father a bit better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2019 03:37PM by gemini.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: March 22, 2019 10:41AM

You did make me cry. Your perception and understanding are beautiful. What a heart you have, gemini.

The life line the church threw us was the chastity thing. It was a way out. Having the girls--who wanted more when I didn't want any at all---think it was just because I was so bent on being chaste and righteous bought precious time.

I always thought when I was devout and young somehow I would have to go through with a marriage, but in the end I just couldn't. Wouldn't. No matter what. And luckily there was that beautiful day I realized it was all a lie and a billion million pounds lifted off of me in one instant. I floated in the air, I swear, the relief was so joyful.

So happy you can help your children understand.

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Posted by: S. Richard Bellrock ( )
Date: March 23, 2019 06:41AM

Thanks for sharing that D&D, very thoughtful and a great Illustration of what I was fumbling to say.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: March 23, 2019 10:41AM

There was no fumbling. You were clear concise and well reasoned and heart showed through and it made my day.

We fought hard, but having straight allies in the end was like having our fight turbo charged.

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Posted by: robinsaintcloud ( )
Date: March 21, 2019 10:21PM

I really appreciate the time and thought put into the two above treatises.

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Posted by: mel ( )
Date: March 22, 2019 12:07AM

robinsaintcloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I really appreciate the time and thought put into
> the two above treatises.

Me too! Excellent insights.

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Posted by: mel ( )
Date: March 22, 2019 12:14AM

So many people are in hiding. I am a bit on the autism scale so at church I was always pretending to be the best “normal” I could be. I’m good with written words but not so good with speaking.

There are lots of cloaked pretenders out there. Hidden handicaps or other secrets. It would be nice to live in a world where no one had to pretend. :)

Thank you for writing, Done and Richard.

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Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: March 21, 2019 10:53PM

Very good posts above with valid points being made.
.
My thoughts are that The mormon religion probably thinks that calling a person gay, or homosexual is disrespectful. Sort of like calling someone "colored." Instead the proper PC way to refer to them is "people of color." In this way first we are acknowledging them as people and then there is a description. It's more respectful.

It's the same for people with SSA. First they are people. then they have this attribute which shouldn't define them as who they are as equal human beings.

The trouble is that there is vocal minority activism who want to redefine language to their own coarse purposes which is to divide and conquer. They've done pretty well.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: March 22, 2019 10:05AM

The "SSA" is infuriatingly disrespectful. SSA as a label is intended to make being gay a condition, a diagnosis. like there should be a pill over the counter or a quick in patient surgery. Goodness knows they have tried various kinds of therapy including electro-shock.

The Mormon leaders refuse to accept the depth of innate sexuality because it does not serve their purposes. Accepting us as whole human beings is one more instance wherein they must accept that they have once again been wrong. Vocally, publicly, wrong. But even more, this is more proof that they are clearly uninspired by any Omnicient being.

So, although the truth is not very useful to Mormons, a clever relabeling of "their problem" is useful. SSA allows Bednar to claim there are no homosexuals in the Mormon church. It allows Oaks to continue his bigotry. It allows people like my own family to straddle the fence so the don't have to reject me or their church.

We used to hear all the time when I was a kid about the "fence-sitters" as they called people of color. Now the Mormons have clearly become the Fence Sitters themselves in order to keep swallowing what their leaders feed them.

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Posted by: mel ( )
Date: March 22, 2019 10:13AM

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The "SSA" is infuriatingly disrespectful.

I agree. "Attraction" so minimizes a basic person's drive. Like, I am 'attracted' to that chocolate donut, but maybe I am going to choose the sprinkle one today.

You can't choose. Choices are hard-wired, probably from birth.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: March 22, 2019 10:24AM

>>The "SSA" is infuriatingly disrespectful.

I agree with Done & Done. The term "same sex attraction" was brought to you by the same people who have historically called homosexuality a "choice" or a "lifestyle." We don't call heterosexuality a choice or a lifestyle. We don't label heterosexuals as being "opposite sex attracted."

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: March 22, 2019 11:05AM

"Choice," "Lifestyle," and "alternate lifestyle" were used by gays themselves in the early days of "gay lib," following the Stonewall "riots." As was "same-sex attraction." Those are now regarded as paleolithic times, it seems--most lesbians simply called themselves "gay." "Bi's" came later. Then "T,'", "Q's," etc.

"Qu**r" was long a derogatory term, until re-embraced by the Qu**r movement in such contexts as "Qu**r Studies."

Correct intersectional political nomenclature seems to be an ever-evolving paradigm. You can't be taken seriously if you're not woke.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2019 11:28AM by caffiend.

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: March 22, 2019 12:50PM

D&D, interesting that you mention Electroshock Therapy at BYU.

The Book, "Free Electricity," by Ryan Rhodes (published 2014) details the story of BYU student “Bernie" and the Electroshock Therapy—"Aversion Therapy," as it was called— an attempt to electrocute gay men and some women into becoming straight. This practice went on at Brigham Young University in the late 1970s. The book is written in a flowing but gripping style, and any mormon will recognize the factual account of how mormonism operates. The book earned Five Stars, and deserves every one. Easily findable on Amazon.

I’ve never read anything like this book. Some gay people committed suicide after the failed “therapy” believing that God would always hate them, and died with electrical burns still on their wrists.

Had I not read "Free Electricity," I’d never have know about this monstrous practice by a monstrous church. And I’d never have the same insights into the lives and heartbreak that gay people experience.

http://free-electricitybook.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2019 12:56PM by kathleen.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: March 23, 2019 07:09AM

This is the downside of an ideological echo chamber like the Q15. Oaks chose the LGB hill to die on and they all went along, compassion be damned. It’s irresponsible to ignore the phobia that drives Oaks, but that’s their process. They will continue to lose members and revenue over it. Members that they won’t get back.

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Posted by: a nonny mouse ( )
Date: March 22, 2019 11:28AM

SSA is almost always prefaced with "suffering from" or "struggling with" and it's meant to sound like a mental illness. It's garbage! Only Mormons and Catholics use that term because they reject the very idea of sexual orientation, because that's understood to be innate. They want to assert that you can always choose who you're attracted to and if you choose wrong, you're just sinning.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: March 22, 2019 11:48AM

I saw it used at a fundie Christian church as well.

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Posted by: xxMo0 ( )
Date: March 22, 2019 10:05AM

"Homosexual" is the correct term

Also what happened to the "T" in LGB?

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Posted by: S. Richard Bellrock ( )
Date: March 23, 2019 06:37AM

After reading that, the takeaway for you was that I left off the “t”...?

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: March 23, 2019 09:34AM

Do they all lack emotional intelligence? From my experience, they seemed to think that IF ONLY a gay man would have sex with a woman, they'd never go back as they, themselves, couldn't get enough and I think they are actually envious of gays in that they seem to get more sex than straight mormon guys do. It was bizarre what they talked to me about. So twisted. SO WRONG in so many ways. SO MANY WAYS.

Since I, myself, struggled with the idea of "waiting," mormons didn't like me. I wrote in my journal that I wondered if I was normal as no guy wanted to date me and I was NOT unattractive. I guess more antisocial. I don't know as I sure didn't have a problem finding nonmormons to date ONCE I decided I could date them. I had 3 proposals from nonmormons before I was 25. And I'd barely dated mormons.

BUT having dealt with being married to someone gay and how they treated us before we got married (and I wouldn't allow him to go to the leaders again over the issue even though he just wanted to tell them they were wrong--I didn't want them in my business), I see what damage was inflicted up on my ex. Sometimes he can be such an ass, but there is something so good in him. I've said before, I was taught he was a monster and so after I found out, I'd have this view of this evil person that would grow and grow and I'd have to call him to hear his voice, and then I'd know who he was. And another hour would go by and I'd have to call again . . .

I see the torture he still lives with at almost 62. It infuriates me. I remember not long after my daughter went back to the lds church and she was having a meltdown about everything--one being that "I" gave up on him. I didn't. I told her I HAD SEEN HIS PAIN.

Sometimes she comes through for us as when she saw "Bohemian Rhapsody," my son and I were so afraid she wouldn't SEE what we saw in that movie. Her comments were, "Being gay is a lot more complex than people understand." She still hasn't given back my CD from the movie. She has had it for 3 months. This little LDS girl of mine.

Truth is, they JUST DON'T CARE. They don't give a damn about all the gays and all the people who love them, who have found themselves in our shoes. The pain they have inflicted is a tragedy. How can anyone go to that damn religion?

I have the book "Free Electricity" and have for several years, but I never read any longer except when I work. I need to. I have a whole box of books I've purchased that I've read about on this board. Another good one is "Perfect: (something like the life of a gay mormon)."

I must add that I guess I wasn't your typical girl with all these hormones raging. I was so afraid of ever talking to a bishop about sex, that I was very, very, very careful. I really would have had to commit suicide had I ever done anything I had to tell a bishop about. Hell, I couldn't even tell my parents I was pregnant as then they'd know I had sex. My first real boyfriend--nonmormon and the one I've been with for 14 years now after being apart 27 years--told a mutual friend that he knew that if he pushed me beyond kissing, that I wouldn't be able to handle it. He knew my mormon issues. So he never tried to do anything beyond kissing until I was ready 27 years later. And I certainly wasn't going to. BUT he taught me something that carried me through all the years--that he desired me. I never forgot.

Oh, and I hate SSA, too, and I hate the word tolerance.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2019 09:43AM by cl2.

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Posted by: gemini ( )
Date: March 23, 2019 10:24AM

Oh, cl2, that sentence about being desired!!! I never knew how much that was missing in my marriage. After the divorce and subsequent relationships I had, it became so painfully obvious how lacking that had been. Too bad I was nearly 45 years old before I experienced it on a grand scale. It makes all the difference.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: March 23, 2019 11:56AM

It was horrible what they did to all of us. It is so infuriating.

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Posted by: You Too? ( )
Date: March 23, 2019 11:55AM

Frankly, I'll fuck whoever I want.

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