without looking at your link, I have mixed feelings on this:

- worshiping Christ or Buddha, or Mohammad gives a personal aspect for people to focus on.


- OTOH, religion sometimes is 'off point' of basic right/wrong, Mormonism is a prime example of this!

Not really. Atheists have killed plenty of people as well and can have all the same bad faults religious people have. Everyone is greedy. The atheists just sell a different line on bullshit called communism. There might not be any God but they still promise utopia of some kind.

I'm an atheist and I'm selling free love! Communism? Yuk!!

Rubicon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The
> atheists just sell a different line on bullshit
> called communism.

That is a vast overstatement. The percentage of atheists who advocate communism is close to zero.

that could be true. the percentage of atheists promoting communism is small, There is probably lots of atheists promoting libertarian ideas.

but it's the communists that have traditionally been the big proponents of atheism.

I would say that in the last century those without religion were responsible for most of the mass murders and disregard for human life that went on. Such as Stallin and Lenin.

Atheism is ok just so long as not too many people get involved in it, cuz when they do there isn't any reason to respect the sanctity of life. The collective takes the place of the individual. And it's the individual that religion celebrates and protects. Citizen rights are granted by god, but in Atheism citizen rights are granted by the State. Humans become the property of the state, slavery results.

> Atheism is ok just so long
> as not too many people get
> involved in it, cuz when they
> do there isn't any reason to
> respect the sanctity of life.
> The collective takes the place
> of the individual. And it's
> the individual that religion
> celebrates and protects.
> Citizen rights are granted by
> god, but in Atheism citizen
> rights are granted by the State.
> Humans become the property of
> the state, slavery results.


This is seriously, seriously flawed thinking. And I have no reason to expect you to study your way out of this morass. It doesn't really bother me that you can 'think' this way, but I kinda do feel a bit sad.

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Citizen rights are granted by god...

Huh??? Is that why so many US immigrantion lawyers are making a good living helping immigrants here through the morass of USCIS paperwork and fees and waiting to become a US citizen??? Guess they didn’t get the memo that they apply to god, not the government.

>but in Atheism citizen rights are granted by the State...

Well, since the US is an atheist state, I would hope so, you have heard of the separation of church and state? Right? The government shall make no law regarding religion, and all that...

mel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Well, since the US is an atheist state, I would
> hope so, you have heard of the separation of
> church and state? Right? The government shall make
> no law regarding religion, and all that...

Laïcité is not the same as atheism.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"

Does that sound atheist? It mentions not only creation, but a specific Creator. It also mentions "unalienable rights" as if they were granted by an external force.

There are several logical errors in this statement, which is not self-evident at all. "Men are created equal" is palpable nonsense. We aren't. None of the people on this board are "created equal". Some are physically more powerful, some more intelligent, some suffer weight problems, others inherited psychological issues, some get sunburnt easily, some are more attractive to mates (sexual or otherwise) etc etc. It is a nonsense to say these are all "created equal" - that is proto-Communism. It would be more accurate to say "we believe that people should have equal treatment and unalienable political rights".

There is a much more common relationship in mass murders and other undesirables than titles like atheists or religionists. No need to point fingers at different groups since all of us have the most basic thing in common with all of them--being human.

Isn't it more honest to say, "Humans do fucked up things"? That way, whatever camp we think we're in, we can personally guard against such behaviors because we understand the human capacity to be evil.

“Citizen rights are granted by god, but in Atheism citizen rights are granted by the State. Humans become the property of the state, slavery results.”

That’s so John Birch. The myth of state tyranny was rolled out to roll back the New Deal, with disastrous results for the 99%. Who for the most part drank the Kool Aid and keep chugging no matter how many times Trickle Down Economics is proven to be a farce.

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> “Citizen rights are granted by god, but in
> Atheism citizen rights are granted by the State.
> Humans become the property of the state, slavery
> results.”
>
> That’s so John Birch. The myth of state tyranny
> was rolled out to roll back the New Deal, with
> disastrous results for the 99%. Who for the most
> part drank the Kool Aid and keep chugging no
> matter how many times Trickle Down Economics is
> proven to be a farce.

Religion or no religion, there is a disturbing tendency in modern society to think the State is the font of all goodness, when in fact the State is the tool of whoever controls it. The more power you hand to the state, the less power most individuals have. Combine this with a State which is being utilized by certain elements for social engineering, and which funds divide and conquer tactics for controlling the populace and you have a very dangerous situation overall.

Most individuals in the USA are too short sighted - they think it's all one president or the last one, or pne party or the other, but they mostly dance to the same tune.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rubicon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The
> > atheists just sell a different line on bullshit
> > called communism.
>
> That is a vast overstatement. The percentage of
> atheists who advocate communism is close to zero.

Well, that's untrue. There are still huge numbers of Communists out there, particularly in China, and if they're proper Communists, they're atheists. So Communist atheists actually number in the millions.

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Well, that's untrue. There are still huge numbers
> of Communists out there, particularly in China,
> and if they're proper Communists, they're
> atheists. So Communist atheists actually number in
> the millions.

really? Okay.

1) Tell us how you square that with the decisions of the Third Plenum in 1978.

2) Tell us how your assertion comports with the Southern Tour of 1992.

3) Name one "communist" policy imposed by Beijing in the last forty years.

This is your third chance, Jordan, after your ill-fated excursions into ancient Chinese philosophy and the history of the Community-Nationalist period, to demonstrate your grasp of China.

Perhaps you could find and reproduce a couple of Chinese characters to indicate your facility with Google. That worked so well last time.

Au contraire, you were the one who thought Hong Kong and Taiwan were not Chinese.

If you think the PRC is not Communist these days, you are what Lenin termed a "useful idiot" and/or a fellow traveler. There is no other legal party in the PRC other than the Communist Party.

The PRC is still Communist - it may wear capitalist clothing, but most of the factories and labor camps are atill state run. Even the churches are state run. Lenin instituted the NEP to help grow capital and infrastructure in the USSR, before reverting back to the old forms. The PRC is doing the same, it is outstripping the developed world, getting it into debt, to hasten the end of capitalism. The PRC is owed colossal amounts of money by the USA, which is the figurehead of capitalism. As this grows, it shall become easier to collapse the US economy.

The Chinese always take the long view, even the Red Chinese. They know they can bring down America and the west. They remember well how they were stuffed full of opium and unfair trade deals imposed on them in the past two centuries. They know America is a young country with little sense of history, with a short term view. Americans think about the next five years, Beijing is planning where it will be in fifty.

You must feel lonely now that Bruce McDonkie isn't here to substantiate your racism and misogyny and politics. But of course the fact that he was a mentally ill criminal doesn't undermine his value as a political analyst or detract from your judgment.

Seriously, Jordan, prove that you know something about China. A man of your formidable intellect and deep understanding of Asia can surely tell us what happened to economic policy at the 1978 Plenum and then during the Southern Tour.

Ni buyao jinzhang. Wo keyi deng yidiar.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2019 01:29PM by Lot's Wife.

Rubicon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not really. Atheists have killed plenty of people
> as well and can have all the same bad faults
> religious people have. Everyone is greedy. The
> atheists just sell a different line on bullshit
> called communism. There might not be any God but
> they still promise utopia of some kind.
I get your point, but is it really fair to lump Atheists together as if they are all commies?
I realize most Communists are atheists, but I wouldn't say most atheists are commies or immoral.
I mean, Stephen Hawking and Peter Higgs were atheists/pantheist/agnostic, as are most critical thinkers. Our jails are not filled with atheists, they are filled with religious zealots, who believe the Big Guy in the sky is gonna spring them one day, because they have NOTHING else.
We, the atheists/nihlists/agnostics have plenty to attract our love, from the God Particle to the Great Attractor.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2019 09:52PM by schrodingerscat.

Atheist = Communist?

That's a wide leap in reasoning.

I'm atheist, but I loathe communism.

Atheism is one descriptor and communism another for two completely different things.

William Law Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Atheist = Communist?
>
> That's a wide leap in reasoning.
>
> I'm atheist, but I loathe communism.
>
> Atheism is one descriptor and communism another
> for two completely different things.

They are not the same thing but not always completely different. All Quakers are pacifists, but not all pacifists are Quakers.

True Communists are atheist, and some non-Communist atheists have taken some of their ideas onboard. Militant atheism certainly has a heavy Communist influence, as has any plan which involves the government cracking down on religion in general. Greater state interference is a central tenet of their ideology which they try to implement by many means - revolution, entryism (infiltration), influencing education to create people with similar ideas.

Yes. Root of most of the evil in the world.

Yes. Then some folks would invent new fairy tales about how things came to be and make new ways to tell others how to live and come up with even more inventive ways to try and control them.

This is my view, as well.

Someone always feels he or she knows better. And so often, the impetus is that it's for our own good.

There is also an appetite on the part of most people for someone and some theory that can bring order and comprehensibility to their lives. That can manifest in joining a new religion or in embracing a political ideology that functions much like a religion.

An interesting - if long - article about the possible origin of religious belief.

Hopefully Henry is around.

Time for bed.


http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20190529-do-humans-have-a-religion-instinct

My heavens!

Do you realize you just linked to a BBC article? Do you expect us to take seriously a socialist publication informed by the most egregious cultural Marxism?

A communist under every bed and behind every TV.

And Trotsky in the closet.

And Orwell in the trash bin now his actual meaning is clear.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My heavens!
>
> Do you realize you just linked to a BBC article?
> Do you expect us to take seriously a socialist
> publication informed by the most egregious
> cultural Marxism?

The BBC is a nationalized, i.e. state owned corporation. Which part of that do you struggle understanding?

She was teasing you and rather than be teased, you took her remarks seriously and now people won't think of you as 'fun'.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> She was teasing you and rather than be teased, you
> took her remarks seriously and now people won't
> think of you as 'fun'.

The joke is on you two in the long run. I hope you live long enough to see where your thinking actually leads to. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The notion that my 'thinking' might actually lead to something is horrifying!!

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The notion that my 'thinking' might actually lead
> to something is horrifying!!

Yes it is. You might be joking there, but I'm not. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

We all know the old quotation - "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" - which could be rephrased as "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that some good men do nothing, and others work for that evil while thinking they are doing good." I've no idea whether you think you are good or not, but you certainly think you are "gooder" than me. Be careful who you end up being used by, it might not be who you think.

I simply don't assume that I know what's best for the rest of the world. How do you know that you aren't be 'guided' in your thoughts and actions by those who want 'evil' to triumph?

I've always been leery of those who tell me they know a better way.

Love is a better way. It’s the only way. What does that mean for the self loathing that Mormonism guilts into you?

The world would be better off without Mormonism. Would it be better off without any religion? Looking at how people are, I think sheep will be sheep.

Love that quote Jordan. I think EOD is one of the good guys, he's just having fun with you.

I'm definitely trying to have fun! And I, too, admire and give credence to the old quotation.

But I object when anyone tells me the precise steps I must take in order to protect his freedoms.

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> The road to hell is paved with
> good intentions.

Wow. Our very own Polonius!

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My heavens!
>
> Do you realize you just linked to a BBC article?
> Do you expect us to take seriously a socialist
> publication informed by the most egregious
> cultural Marxism?

Only misinformed Americans think the BBC is somehow hallowed or respectable.

Frederick Forsyth was a journalist before he became a successful novelist (Day of the Jackal).

In his memoir Forsyth wrote how he quit the BBC in protest during the Nigerian Civil War of the late 1960s. He saw first-hand how the BBC were an arm of the state who promoted sloppy and inaccurate journalism if it supported the ruling class and the prevailing political agenda.

HWint Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> Frederick Forsyth was a journalist before he
> became a successful novelist (Day of the Jackal).

Thank you for giving an example of a Forsyth novel. I personally thought the Odessa File--with its basis in World War II and its portrayal of life in the coastal areas of the Black Sea--was better than Jackal, but I do confess that the Jackal's giving that lonely middle-aged woman five orgasms to his three that night when he was establishing cover was memorable. Do you remember that passage? How about the fate of the passport forger? Wasn't that going a bit too far?

But let's act like you are the only one who reads (you did read Jackal, right? I mean, you didn't just watch the movie?).


-----------------
> In his memoir Forsyth wrote how he quit the BBC in
> protest during the Nigerian Civil War of the late
> 1960s. He saw first-hand how the BBC were an arm
> of the state who promoted sloppy and inaccurate
> journalism if it supported the ruling class and
> the prevailing political agenda.

You see? This sort of paragraph does not impress.

Forsyth wrote for the BBC; he quit when they wouldn't let him stay in Nigeria. But if he were protesting against "the ruling class and the prevailing political agenda," why did he immediately start spying for MI6 and continue in that role for the next 20 years?

The truth is Forsyth was a fully committed upper-class Briton in full support of the existing political agenda. Seriously. Watch what he has to say about it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-34101822

Confusing, too, isn't it, that someone who thought the BBC so evil, so "communist," would grant them interviews--and in fact continue working for them as a writer and a presenter for several more decades? He never stopped working for the BBC.

The views of any single reporter don't mean much in any case. But before getting to that question, one must get the views of that reporter right. And you fail on that score. He never rejected the BBC as an organization; he proudly served that company well past retirement age while also eagerly serving as an "arm of the state" you say he despised.

But hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good yarn.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2019 12:45PM by Lot's Wife.

yes !!!!

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” - Voltaire

Would the world be better off without essential oil multi-level maketing commpanies? oops, o/t (well, not really)
By the way, our daughter, who is a nurse at the big hopspital in provo, utah, usa(?), was talking with coworkers, and they asked her how she is going to be able to instill any morals in her children seeing as how she is not an ldmormoness. hmmm, so far the little grandkids seem to be just fine (the little stinkers).

Honestly, human tendencies being what they are, I think they would just find new groups to join. There could be a Society Against Democracy, or The Peoples Group Against Abortion, or The Society to End Single-Dwelling Housing. I don't know. Anything.

But I think that people will always form themselves into like-minded groups which will be in opposition to another group. Whenever people feel passionately about something, they will try to gather in other people who feel the same way.

There's safety and power in numbers, people feel.

The two largest mass-murdering regimes in history were specifically atheist: The Bolsheviks (under Lenin and Stalin) and China under Mao.

These two were also socialists who said they were fighting for social justice.

Combined they killed well over 100 million people directly, and indirectly through forced relocations and destructive policies.

now show the atheism was causative.

Yet another christer lie. The commies murdered in the name of communism, not in the name of Atheism.

Yes, the world would be better off without organized religion!

It's all about control and greed, which almost always leads to conflict and corruption. "God told me that you should or shouldn't ____." Your ultimate reward or punishment (heaven or hell) depends on obedience to religious leaders. And your obedience almost always benefits the people in control, who are supposedly speaking for "God".

Religion is based on made-up stories and people. It may have been beneficial at some point in time, but by now the human race should've outgrown it.

Governments infiltrated or unduly influenced by religion are especially dangerous.

The only way an organized group can benefit the world is when the group's leadership is held accountable by the group at large and by society in general, when the leadership doesn't have unlimited power over the group.

Do you mean better off WITHOUT this from religion:

CHOSEN PEOPLE who believe God is on THEIR side?

The concept of HERETICS-- seen as morally suspect outsiders for not conforming?

HOLY WARS -- Enough said.

The concept of BLASPHEMY? The notion that some ideas are inviolable, off limits to criticism, satire, debate, or even question. By definition, criticism of these ideas is an outrage, and it is precisely this emotion–outrage–that the crime of blasphemy evokes in believers. The Bible prescribes death for blasphemers; the Quran does not, but death-to-blasphemers became part of Shariah during medieval times. See also Dallin Oaks.

GLORIFIED SUFFERING?

GENITAL MUTILATION?

BLOOD SACRIFICE? Yes today. Even among some Hindus and some Muslims. Hindus (during the Festival of Gadhimai) and some Muslims (during Eid al Adha, Feast of the Sacrifice) continue to ritually slaughter sacrificial animals on a mass scale. Not all though and most are against it.

MALE OWNERSHIP OF FEMALE FERTILITY?

BIBLIOLATRY--worship of holy books

WORSHIP OF THAT WHICH IS NEVER SEEN?


Do we not know enough, feel enough, care enough, in 2019 that we must defer to religion as the answer rather than step up as humans and be the best we can be? Is mankind really that?

The ideas of heresy and blasphemy are alive and well in non-religious politics and the soft sciences.

So What? Because other kids are jumping off the bridge it's okay for religion to do the same?

We are talking about what religion brings to the table.

If you remember computing in the 80s and 90s, you’ll remember the “endian wars”. All of that just evaporated. So much ado about nothing, when everyone could have settled on one byte order or the other for the sake of consistent standards.

Another example is the cola wars. They got hot enough to burn Michael Jackson. All of that hubbub about phosphoric acid soft drinks.

What promotes this “us vs them” thinking? I think religion. If you believe one thing, you can’t believe its opposite. “They” have to be wrong.

They may not be the only ones, but who has contributed more to the concept of the suspect "they" more than religion? Can't think of other group to give that honor to.

Don't even get me started on AP Style punctuation.

I say no. Many people need religion to function in life. Without it, they might be erratic or even dangerous. Let them have it. I don't want it or need it.

SO . . . not much faith in people then. I don't have much either, but I just see religion stopping goodness rather than fostering it. In general. Sure there are few exceptions but they only prove the rule.

Many people rarely think about religion in our American societies today because people will think they are crazy. Many hide their beliefs behind a mask of tolerance and acceptance of all things religious or no.

Mormonism wants this freedom to grow though they need their persecutions to justify their continued existence as a protected people.

From Wikipedia....

"State atheism may refer to a government's anti-clericalism, which opposes religious institutional power and influence in all aspects of public and political life, including the involvement of religion in the everyday life of the citizen."

Communism adopted atheism as a way to rule out any competition from religion influencing the people they wanted to subjugate, rather than as an excuse to do whatever they wanted, as in, kill millions of their own people. They wanted to that anyway for political ambition, not because they were atheist.

Once they eliminated the influence of religion, they could do all the influencing, which meant killing anyone that doesn't support their ideology.

That's why they killed educated people too. They didn't want them influencing the masses.

So the mass killing was done to eliminate political enemies that could pull people from communism with their influence.

Belief in god wasn't helping them establish their politics, so they eliminated it, and in order to establish their politics, they killed millions.

Its not a case of "I'm an atheist so I can kill millions." Its a case of "I want to eliminate all forms of competition and influence, so I can set up my regime, and I'll kill millions to do it.

I have no idea. But, let's give it a try for a while and take some data.

HH =)