So are they going back to this?

How Peruvian Myths About a God Appearing to the People Echo Events in the Book of Mormon.
Ldsliving website.

I see Denial Peterson (copyright SLCabbie ;-) is at it again. I'd love to hear them explain how the very bloody South and Central American religions square with the message of Christ: love thy neighbour but only after a bit of bloodletting - and then rip his heart out?

Also, this is as reported by the colonizers, so hardly a reliable witness - and of course, our ability to check this against other sources is hampered by the fact that the Spanish basically destroyed their culture and literature.

The formerly-called-mormons are clearly getting increasingly desperate.

I would be going after the South American civilizations. Peruvians' ancestors were much less bloodthirsty than the Aztecs and Maya.

My husband is 70% Inca and his mother is 100% Inca. She grew up in a town called Usquil, and the population is Incan. They eventually moved to Lima, and my husband attended JR high and High school there. He said he never heard of a great white god promising to come back until he moved to Utah. In his history classes in Lima, they were taught about the Inca belief in Wiracocha ( The Quechua spelling) who the Incas believed was the supreme creator. In the history books, it said that Manco Capac and Macma (Quechua for Mama)Ocllo came from Lake Titicaca. It sounded ridiculous to the students that someone would come out of the water. Recently, a sunken city has been discovered under Lake Titicaca that proved the city was flooded. Manco Capac and his people escaped from the flood and migrated to what is now known as Cuzco. Manco Capac had a staff that he used while they traveled to find a new place to live. They were looking for fertile soil. He would thrust his staff into the ground from time to time and finally, it found fertile ground. the Incas always worshipped the sun, or "Inti"; they never talked about a great white god or man. When my MIL was 14 or 15 years old, she saw a
beggar that came to her home in Usquil asking for food. She said he didn't look Incan. When she gave him some bread and clothes, he extended his hands and she saw that both of his hands and wrists were pierced. She had grown up in the Catholic church and her first impression was that this was Jesus Christ. He was passing through and they never saw him again. Interestingly, according to Inca legend, Wiracocha wandered as a beggar. The Incas were more mild mannered until they were pushed. They were amazed at how greedy the spaniards were for silver and gold. They thought the spaniards ate it, so they forced some of them to drink molten silver or gold. Of course, it didn't go well for the Incas after that. The Incas never mistook the spaniards for gods. They had never seen horses or guns before, though.

Thanks, Valkyriequeen, that 's what I thought.

Tom in Paris
Proud grandfather of 2 Peruvians :-D

Thanks, VQ. It is always nice when someone can introduce facts into a conversation.

You threw off Peterson’s groove.

Such a depiction was a post Spanish conquest invention and perpetuation of those ideas today are based on pseudoscience, which is right up Peterson's alley.

This article isn't about Peru, but it is just as applicable.

Burying the White Gods: New Perspectives on the Conquest of Mexico by Camilla Townsend
http://www.cynthiaclarke.com/anth115/115_readings/Burying_the_white_gods.pdf

"Such a depiction was a post Spanish conquest invention"

How do we know this if there are no written records? A bit of a double blind. There is a surprising amount of similarity between myths around the world which suggest their ancient provenance as much as cross-contamination.

In Mesoamerica, there is a good reason for saying Quetzalcoatl is white and that is because he represents Venus, which is the brightest "star"* in the sky other than the Sun and Moon and which is whiter than either of them.

* Yes, I know this will trigger the literalists. To primitives, Venus is a star. They would have little notion of planets.

Did you read the article I linked?

mikemitchell Wrote:
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> Did you read the article I linked?

Yes, it talks about Cortes. I'm not sure about the Cortes Legend, but his appearance (both physical and technologically) would have been alarming. When civilizations achieve primacy they often end up becoming weak due to lack of competition, as the west has to some extent.

But the linking of Q to the Morning Star, a bright object in the sky suggests whiteness - not in the Caucasian sense, but as in the coloring of Venus in the sky.

One would expect moon gods to be silvery, sun gods to be golden and earth mothers to be brown like the soil (or whatever color it is locally).

Didn't you read about Quetzalcoatl in the link? Didn't you read how the myth that Cortes was thought to be Quetzalcoatl can be determined to be false even without having pre-conquest written records?

He only read what he wanted to read. He only sees what he wants to see. I read it. Very good and informative. Thanks Mike.

Also, we shouldn't forget that the main reason why there are few pre-Hispanic written records is because... the Spanish destryoed them all ;-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2019 01:37PM by Soft Machine.

mikemitchell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Didn't you read about Quetzalcoatl in the link?
> Didn't you read how the myth that Cortes was
> thought to be Quetzalcoatl can be determined to be
> false even without having pre-conquest written
> records?

We're told it's false now. However all historical records are subjective, so who truly knows? Nowadays we write things to benefit the conquered, back then they were to benefit the conqueror.

The invaders with their horses, strange appearance and cannon would be alarming enough without invoking Quetzalcoatl. It is possible that they did not even think they were fully human or were magicians.

The article addressed those very things.

I wonder if there are two things going on here -

* In many non-African/South Asian societies, paleness was associated with nobility. This was not a race thing at all, but to do with the fact that someone was not working out all day in the sun and getting a tan but sitting in a palace away from it. This is where the phrase "blue blooded" is supposed to come from as you could see some of the blood vessels through their skin. In many parts of North East Asia, pale women were prized for their beauty for similar reasons.

* If someone is a solar deity, then we would expect them to be a golden color, or at least red/orange, reflecting the colour of the sun.

> * If someone is a solar deity, then we would
> expect them to be a golden color, or at least
> red/orange, reflecting the colour of the sun.

Or not.

There have been dozens of solar deities in the world, including YHWH and the Indo-European Sky Gods like Zeus and Jupiter and many others, not one of which id depicted as "red/orange" or otherwise reflecting the "colour" of the sun.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > * If someone is a solar deity, then we would
> > expect them to be a golden color, or at least
> > red/orange, reflecting the colour of the sun.
>
> Or not.
>
> There have been dozens of solar deities in the
> world, including YHWH and the Indo-European Sky
> Gods like Zeus and Jupiter and many others, not
> one of which id depicted as "red/orange" or
> otherwise reflecting the "colour" of the sun.

Zeus/Jupiter was king of the gods. Apollo was the solar deity.

You haven't studied very much. Zeus and Jupiter are Indo-European sky/sun/storm gods.

"Dyḗus Pḥatḗr" is the proto-Indo-European for the sun/sky god. The astute reader will notice that that is "Deos Father," not a hard bit to decypher, and indicative of the foundational role the concept played in all derivative civilizations. Note also that "Zeus" is a derivative of "Dyḗus" as are "theos" and "day."

So can you show a depiction of Zeus or Jupiter or Ahura Mazda with red skin? Of course not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2019 03:31PM by Lot's Wife.

You've cut and pasted this off whatever place you got it from (and your use of the complex diacritical marks are a DEAD giveaway, sorry).

Apollo not Zeus is the primary solar deity. Zeus/Jupiter is allied with the planet of the same name (which is visible to the naked eye. Jupiter is also allied with Thursday not Sunday. Zeus and Jupiter throw thunderbolts like Thor, rather than riding in fiery chariots.

The Sky Father is the Lord of Heaven, all of Heaven. Apollo is the Lord of the Sun.

However there was a red faced statue of Jupiter on the Capitoline Hill, where one of the main temples of Rome was situated.

Of course I cut and pasted it! I don't know how to get those marks.

The rest of your commentary is the usual uninformed bullshit. You go from later developments, refined by secondary texts, rather than following the linguistic and mythological material to its source.

You can't discuss Indo-European deities without discussing Indo-European deities. You don't understand that the god of the "day," or dios, or theos or Zeus, is not the god of the sun? You don't know that the Greek Key was an image of the god of the sun? You never read that the swastika is the same as the Greek Key, an image of the Sun God, the chief Indo-European deity, rolling through the sky?

Of course you don't get those things. You never went beyond your 8th grade mythology class. That's understandable. What isn't, is your insistence that Old Miss Gagnon wasn't sharing the whole story with you and the other pre-teens.

Ignorance is for all of us a regrettable fact. By contrast, the insistence that it is the height of understanding is a willful obscurantism. There is a world beyond the quadratic equation; there are vast realms outside of your fishbowl.

You can't the difference between the ruler of the sky and the sun god. One sends rain and lightning and the other rides the sun across the sky.

"The rest of your commentary is the usual uninformed bullshit... refined by secondary texts,"

Much better to plagiarize without attribution as you did, then.

At least you admitted to it. I'll give you that. Your Chinese material was blatantly cut 'n' pasted too.

"There is a world beyond the quadratic equation"

'Irrelevant', as you say to me. Now wash your potty mouth out with some cheap boxed tipple.

Here is another source about that myth from Peru.

'The Coming of the White People': Reflections on the Mythologisation of History in Latin America
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3339268?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

"In recent years, doubts have increasingly been voiced regarding the authenticity of this story. In particular, the Polish ethnohistorians, Marcin Mroz and Mariusz Ziolkowski, have argued that it requires serious qualification. Mroz (1991) points out that the earliest accounts of the conquest of Peru make no reference to the identification of the Spanish with Viracocha. It took some time for the confused events of the 1530s to settle into an agreed narrative, and the first version that identifies the bearded white men with Viracocha is that of Cieza de Leon (1553). Cieza mentions the myth that the god Viracocha had gone away across the sea, but is sceptical about the belief (which he also mentions) that the Spanish are called Virachcha because they came from the sea."

Mroz, M. (1991), 'Los Viracochas de la conquista: entre un mita andino y un prejuicio cristiano', in El culto estatal del imperio inca, Ziolkowski, M., pp. 91-108, Studia i Materialy 2 Cesla (Warsaw)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2019 02:04PM by mikemitchell.

All ancient religions began as cargo cults or hallucinogenic trips. When things fell from the sky, or events took place in the heavens such as comets, the ancients made religion of them. The ancient Andeans obviously awaited the return of who or what came from the sky - an ancient rock like the Muslims worship perhaps.