I was responding to your post when Tevai's thread closed. Here is your post, and my reply. This is not meant in anyway to rehash the last thread btw. It is simply to respond to Nightingale's post (since I don't know why Tevai's thread closed prematurely.)

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2244193,2245117#msg-2245117

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AJ: "If you see them as a tribe, when the majority
> of them are converts to the church, then they are
> 'adopted' into it until they leave by default, or
> apostasy, or resignation, or excommunication.
>
> Question: What is leaving "by default"?

That typically means when people go inactive by not attending even if not by resigning or because they stopped believing in Mormonism. They are referred to in the Morridor as "Jack Mormons," or used to be. Not sure if that is still the pejorative name used to describe inactive Mormons today in the Utah/Idaho corridor.

>
> Point of Order: I've always objected to Mormons
> calling former members "apostates". It is, by
> definition, pejorative.
>
> The objective dictionary definition may seem
> neutral:
>
> Apostate: "A person who renounces a religious or
> political belief or principle."
>
> True enough.
>
> But Mormons (and other religions - such as JW)
> imbue the term with judgement and contempt, the
> term and its consequences evoking fear in other
> members. With JWs (as I used to be) there is
> nothing worse than being branded 'apostate', a
> traitor to the true faith.
>
> Even the apparent 'neutral' definition I gave
> above lists 'heretic' as a synonym for 'apostate',
> another word full of judgement. One synonym for
> 'heretic' is given as 'renegade', which, in turn,
> is defined as a person who betrays an
> organization, country or principle. 'Turncoat' is
> also a synonym for 'renegade' and is listed
> (obviously) as a pejorative term.
>
> IOW, judgement.
>
> Which most of us have had a bellyful of from
> churches we used to belong to, merely for
> exercising our freedom to choose to leave.
>
> At least as a JW, branding someone as apostate has
> the organization's desired effect: shunning. They
> don't want to risk the leave-taker talking to
> other members, even family, in case the choice to
> quit is catching. The general membership is barred
> from even greeting the exiled former member while
> family members are restricted to only necessary
> interaction and are not allowed to discuss
> religion with the so-called apostate.
>
> Correspondingly, the judgemental term 'apostate'
> instantly conjures up exceptionally negative
> memories and thoughts for me. Using it, to me,
> means falling in with the distorted approach of
> the religious judges who seek to exert control
> over even former members by first branding them as
> evil and second by mandating that current members
> shun the so-called apostate.
>
> Talk about feeling branded. Unjustly so. And it
> ruins relationships and even lives. All to prop up
> the power and control of the "judges in Israel"
> (as JW leaders call themselves) as well as all
> church leaders who preach against former members
> just because they choose a different path.

Interesting take on apostates. Because that's a pejorative that Mormons use with a high rate of frequency to describe those who leave by choice and those who denounce it.

>
> (Sidetrack: JWs identify very strongly with
> Judaism. Long story but may be of interest if
> anyone cares to look it up. They used an elderly
> Jewish man to voice many of the films they showed
> at conferences, at least when I was a JW. I can't
> remember now why they felt the strong connection -
> something to do with their theology. The fact that
> I can't remember is Good News for me. "Good News"
> is an alternate descriptor they use for "The
> Truth" which is how they refer to their faith. For
> me, forgetting the details means I'm far, far away
> from the stranglehold that organization exerts
> over its membership. I still feel the feelings
> though, when something comes up to remind me. Such
> as that one loaded word: Apostate).

Hmm, interesting. I wonder if that had anything to do with why JW kept pestering me until I had to hand deliver a cease and desist letter to the Kingdom Hall in my neighborhood. A "No proselytizing and No soliciting" sign on my door didn't do it.

The men and women who'd show up would say they weren't soliciting. I told them they were. Then a high wind blew the darn proselytizing sign off my door one day, and two days later there they were again! I got tired of plastering my door with those signs that weren't helping enough. The man at the Kingdom Hall was nice though. He said he'd take care of it for me. And since then I haven't had a problem with them. (Hallelujah for that!)

I keep a mezuzah on my doorpost which would be an indicator to JW that I'm Jewish. I told the man at the Kingdom Hall that I do not permit any form of proselytizing because of my religion, so I expect them to honor my request. It is only JW that I've had a problem with, no other religion pesters people the way they do. Not even the Mormons are as pesky where we live here in upstate NY.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2019 03:32PM by Amyjo.

Should exmos put tapir symbols next to their doors?

They use consecrated olive oil for anointings. That's their equivalent. And well, those garment thingies.

One thing JW and Jews share in common is historically ie, they were both targeted during the Holocaust and murdered by the Nazis for their religious beliefs.

Wow! That was myopic!

Many religions were persecuted. Check out the accepted "religion" by the Nazis.

"During the war Alfred Rosenberg formulated a thirty-point program for the National Reich Church, which included:
The National Reich Church claims exclusive right and control over all Churches.
The National Church is determined to exterminate foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill-omened year 800.
The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible.
The National Church will clear away from its altars all Crucifixes, Bibles, and pictures of Saints.
On the altars there must be nothing but "Mein Kampf" and to the left of the altar a sword.[51]"
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow! That was myopic!
>
> Many religions were persecuted. Check out the
> accepted "religion" by the Nazis.
>
> "During the war Alfred Rosenberg formulated a
> thirty-point program for the National Reich
> Church, which included:
> The National Reich Church claims exclusive right
> and control over all Churches.
> The National Church is determined to exterminate
> foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in
> the ill-omened year 800.
> The National Church demands immediate cessation of
> the publishing and dissemination of the Bible.
> The National Church will clear away from its
> altars all Crucifixes, Bibles, and pictures of
> Saints.
> On the altars there must be nothing but "Mein
> Kampf" and to the left of the altar a sword.[51]"
> https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Religion_in_Nazi_Germa
> ny

Thank you Elder Berry !!!!!

It was Jehovah Witnesses though who were singled out for genocide along with the Jews because they were pacifists who did not join the Nazis in WWII.

The only other groups that were targeted were mainly the disabled, gypsies, homosexuals, and black people. Other people targeted would be executed if they were caught in the Resistance trying to save Jews or others from the genocide.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2019 08:02PM by Amyjo.

AJ said:

“It was Jehovah Witnesses though who were singled out for genocide along with the Jews because they were pacifists who did not join the Nazis in WWII.

“The only other groups that were targeted were mainly the disabled, gypsies, homosexuals, and black people. Other people targeted would be executed if they were caught in the Resistance trying to save Jews or others from the genocide.”

-----

There were other reasons why the Nazis persecuted JWs, not just because of their pacifism. Too, I would not say that JWs were singled out (in the sense of being the only other ones targeted) - in addition to six million (!) Jews, the Nazis targeted multitudes of others for their race, beliefs or actions. These include the following:

(from Huff Post):

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/holocaust-non-jewish-victims_n_6555604

“Historians estimate the total number of deaths to be 11 million, with the victims encompassing gay people, priests, gypsies, people with mental or physical disabilities, communists, trade unionists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, anarchists, Poles and other Slavic peoples, and resistance fighters.”



-----


JWs and Nazis:

From the web site of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum:

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/nazi-persecution-of-jehovahs-witnesses

Excerpts (re JWs):

“The Nazis regarded Jehovah's Witnesses as enemies of the state for their refusal to take an oath of loyalty to Adolf Hitler, or to serve in the German army.

“[Jehovah’s Witnesses] believed that military service violated the biblical commandment not to kill.

“Jehovah's Witnesses were subjected to intense persecution under the Nazi regime. Nazi leaders targeted Jehovah's Witnesses because they were unwilling to accept the authority of the state, because of their international connections, and because they were strongly opposed to both war on behalf of a temporal authority and organized government in matters of conscience.

“Within months of the Nazi takeover, regional governments, primarily those of Bavaria and Prussia, initiated aggressive steps against Jehovah's Witnesses, breaking up their meetings, ransacking and then occupying their local offices. By April 1, 1935, the Reich and Prussian Minister of the Interior ordered the responsible local officials to dissolve the Watchtower Society.

“Many actions of Jehovah's Witnesses antagonized Nazi authorities. While Witnesses contended that they were apolitical and that their actions were not anti-Nazi, their unwillingness to give the Nazi salute, to join party organizations or to let their children join the Hitler Youth, their refusal to participate in the so-called elections or plebiscites, and their unwillingness to adorn their homes with Nazi flags made them suspect. A special unit of the Gestapo (secret state police) compiled a registry of all persons believed to be Jehovah's Witnesses. Gestapo agents infiltrated Bible study meetings. While Jehovah's Witnesses as such were not banned, many of the activities which were basic to the exercise of the faith increasingly came under attack. Above all, the authorities sought to interdict the distribution of printed materials, produced locally or smuggled in from outside the country in large quantities, which in the eyes of the Nazis were clearly subversive.

“When Germany reintroduced compulsory military service in March 1935, the conflict with the Witnesses escalated. For refusing to be drafted or perform military-related work, and for continuing to meet illegally, increasing numbers of Jehovah's Witnesses were arrested, tried by judicial authorities and incarcerated in prisons and concentration camps.

“By 1939, an estimated 6,000 Witnesses (including some from Austria and Czechoslovakia) were detained in prisons or camps. Others fled Germany, continued their religious observance in private, or ceased to observe altogether. Some Witnesses were tortured in attempts to make them sign declarations renouncing their faith, but few capitulated to this pressure.

“In the concentration camps, all prisoners wore markings of various shapes and colors so that guards and camp officers could identify them by category. Jehovah's Witnesses were marked by purple triangular patches. Even in the camps, they continued to meet, pray, and seek converts. In the Buchenwald concentration camp, they set up an underground printing press and distributed religious tracts.”

-------

Snarky comment: If they refused Nazi commands to cease and desist, being told no thanks by someone whose door they knocked on would be a piece of cake by comparison, such is the power of the zealotry of many members.

I was less than thrilled to do the house to house preachifying, although I did believe that if one really believed this was The Truth (as I did at the time) they should fully participate in all the beliefs and activities. There were often mentions in the JW magazines of the JWs who were persecuted by the Nazis as well as that suffered by JWs in other countries in current times. It would give me chills as I did not consider myself to be overly courageous. I would wonder how I would have reacted to government commands to cease and desist. Likely, I thought, I would fold in the face of Nazi fervour. Standing on principle is an honourable undertaking but if it was a choice to be quiet or die I would likely shut up and live to fight back another day, in another way. But we never know until we are faced with stark choices. Undoubtedly they derived strength in numbers and helped each other stand up for their strong beliefs. Still, very unpleasant - major understatement. I just read of one JW who was sentenced to beheading. I did not even know that Nazis did that. Brutal beyond belief.

While one may at least have had the chance to hide the fact that they were a JW or even could renounce their beliefs and live, Jews did not often get those slim chances for survival. It is unimaginable to me. And it haunts me that this appalling situation occurred in our world.

Holocaust indeed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2019 09:13PM by Nightingale.

It was a horrible time for them to endure because of their beliefs. Just terrible. They were met with the same fate as the Jews. I understand there were many more targeted as well. Hitler wanted only a pure Aryan race. Well, glad that he didn't succeed!

Or we wouldn't be having this conversation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2019 09:27PM by Amyjo.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I keep a mezuzah on my doorpost which would be an
> indicator to JW that I'm Jewish.

I had no idea this thing existed. JWs would know about it? Sheesh. Maybe I should hang up a dead Jesus on my door to indicate I don't want JWs soliciting because I believe God is dead.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amyjo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I keep a mezuzah on my doorpost which would be
> an
> > indicator to JW that I'm Jewish.
>
> I had no idea this thing existed. JWs would know
> about it? Sheesh. Maybe I should hang up a dead
> Jesus on my door to indicate I don't want JWs
> soliciting because I believe God is dead.

Thats a good handy hint Elder Berry... I think I'll do that too.

Can we buy a dead Christus? One without the cross?

https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/91.26.12/

https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/petr/hd_petr.htm

I remember SusieQ#1 put something about the Mormon temple on her door to discourage Mormon missionaries? Didn't Lot's Wife take her to task for that?

about things like loud laughter and posted on the sign that her temple name was Rachel? I believe it was Rachel.

Myself, I'm an apostate and I wear the badge with pride. I read a definition for it on the fb exmo site some years back and it said that apostate has a definition of something like "free." I joke about being an adulteress apostate. I was the good girl for far too long.

I had no idea about a Mezuzah until I was back with my old boyfriend. He converted to Judaism when he married his ex-wife as she is Jewish. He has Mezuzahs at every door that goes outside. I doubt ANYONE knows what they are unless they know
Jews well. And P.S., none of them look alike.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2019 06:41PM by cl2.

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I joke
> about being an adulteress apostate. I was the
> good girl for far too long.

If you are an adulteress than I'm Satan's half sister. You go girl.

Sis, where you been? I've missed you!

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I had no idea about a Mezuzah until I was back
> with my old boyfriend. He converted to Judaism
> when he married his ex-wife as she is Jewish. He
> has Mezuzahs at every door that goes outside. I
> doubt ANYONE knows what they are unless they know
> Jews well. And P.S., none of them look alike.

Here is why mezuzahs exist:

In Deuteronomy, it says: "And you shall write them [the words of the Shema] on the doorposts of your house and on your gates."

Inside the case/container (which are highly varied; some of them are actual artworks), there is a "klaf": a small piece of parchment on which the words of Deuteronomy 6:4-9, and Deuteronomy 11:13-21 have been written, in Hebrew, by a scribe.

The case of the mezuzah is mounted on the right side of each door (does not include doors into bathrooms)....and, because of an ancient Talmudical negotiation, they are mounted diagonally. (Some authorities in ancient times said mezuzahs should be mounted vertically, while other authorities said they should be mounted horizontally, so the compromise between both sides was to mount them diagonally.)

I have mezuzahs, but I have not mounted them because I am the only Jew living here, and to me, it doesn't seem fair that I visually impose them on shared living space.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2019 07:07PM by Tevai.

They're on the doorposts of each door @ shul. I keep them on the front and side doors of my house, but haven't put them on the inner doors. That's done at shul too (inside doors as well as outer doors.)

They have the shema prayer written inside them, which is actually the mezuzah, not the ornate container they're kept inside.

"And you shall write them [the words of the Shema] on the doorposts of your house and on your gates."1 A Mezuzah is not an ornate, gilded container — it's the little parchment inside of it. ... Even if it's just a doorway with no door, like between the kitchen and dining room, it should have a mezuzah.Apr 2, 2008
MEZUZAH INSIDE - What's inside a Mezuzah? AskMoses TV ..

I may have some catching up to do if I need to put them inside my house as well as outside. I'm kind of like you though since I'm the only one here who practices at my home.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I may have some catching up to do if I need to put
> them inside my house as well as outside.

Why on earth would you need to? Insect repellents sound like a more logical thing to "need to" put inside. What do these things do? Repel demons from crossing thresholds?

Because Jewish Simon Says!

I have several religious items in my house (e.g Hindu god carving, a Buddha, a totem pole, a Greek Orthodox icon, Greek god, etc.). I have them from travel or art-ish knickknacks that I happened to like. So, I get that.

What I don't get is having religious kitsch up because some scripture tells you to. That's a bit zealous.

I think of it the same way with Mormons who somehow got told to have a copy of the Proclamation of the Family and pictures of prophets and the Mormon McJesus picture in their houses.

I definitely don't get the pictures of hanging-on-a-cross agonized Jesus in your house, unless you are in need of a daily dose of guilt and want to give your kids nightmares.

People obviously have different tastes about items they like to have around them that make them happy. It's when they have religious doo-dads to 1) show as code to other similar religious types how observant they are and 2) have been told that is the expectation by the religion so they obey what their religious Simon Says, that make me wonder about their zealousness. Sometimes it's just a tribal thing like having pictures of your favorite sport team all over the place. People like what they like.

What people do in their houses with their religion (or their décor), I'm all for since I feel their religion belongs in their homes and churches and out of everywhere else. My home is for ME and the things I want to be around too.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amyjo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I may have some catching up to do if I need to
> put
> > them inside my house as well as outside.
>
> Why on earth would you need to? Insect repellents
> sound like a more logical thing to "need to" put
> inside. What do these things do? Repel demons from
> crossing thresholds?

I would do it because I *want* to, not because I *need* to. That is the difference. So far I haven't felt a need to put them up on every doorpost in my house. I may be waiting until I retire and relocate to my "forever" home, possibly to Utah. Now there I will *need* them more than here to *repel* pesky Mormons from my doorposts and from crossing my thresholds!

As for demons, I use prayer for that and my bible, the sign of the cross over my heart (no, I'm not a Catholic, it's a carryover of a practice for me that goes along with my prayers.) And my belief that there are guardian angels who watch over and protect us from demonic forces.

If you find that silly, ask your adult missionary children what they think about divine intercession and guardian angels to see what their take is on it? I'd be interested to hear what they have to say.

I've seen angelic intervention at work in my life, so I'm not one to quibble with divine forces. I continue to pray for my family and loved ones, because I am not all seeing nor all knowing. But somebody up *there* is.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you find that silly, ask your adult missionary
> children what they think about divine intercession
> and guardian angels to see what their take is on
> it? I'd be interested to hear what they have to
> say.

Did you miss my threads about Ouija Boards? No, I saw you replied.

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Myself, I'm an apostate and I wear the badge with
> pride. I read a definition for it on the fb exmo
> site some years back and it said that apostate has
> a definition of something like "free." I joke
> about being an adulteress apostate. I was the
> good girl for far too long.

LOL cl2. That is a good way to look at it.

I'm pretty sure that would work, EB. You should go for it.

Only thing is my mezuzah wasn't hung on the doorpost to discourage JW. My point was it may be a reason why they kept coming back! If indeed they share an affinity with Judaism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2019 07:51PM by Amyjo.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If indeed
> they share an affinity with Judaism.

I've never heard Nightingale mention such an affinity.

So you don't think a pair of JWs drives to her neighborhood, knocks on her door, gets rejected, and then leaves the area, having been rejected by one resident they felt inspired to visit?

If they were tracting out the entire neighborhood, how would that make any one particular person special in their eyes?

Amyjo:
>If indeed they share an affinity with Judaism.

Elder Berry:
> I've never heard Nightingale mention such an
> affinity.

I may not have been clear. I forget exactly why JWs may feel they have some connection with Judaism so I can't explain it exactly. Perhaps because they utilize the Old Testament and they discuss it frequently. Or maybe it was just my impression as a young person unschooled in biblical history and they sounded learned to me.

They believe that the entire Bible is “inspired of God and beneficial.” That, of course, includes both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

JW's refer to the OT as the Hebrew Scriptures and to the NT as the Christian Greek Scriptures.

They believe that the OT provides information for our day (what they call "relevant history" and "practical advice").

From the OT they take the info re creation, "the fall" (of Adam and Eve) and God’s dealings with "His people".

They like Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, believing that they give advice on good living.

They call it the "Mosaic Law" and refer to the first five books of the Bible as "the Torah". They do not teach that this is "law" that applies to Christians but that it contains good principles that Christians should follow.

Using a Jewish voice to narrate the films they show at their conferences (at least they did so while I was in) may merely have been to supposedly add some degree of authenticity while they expounded on the "Hebrew Scriptures". The elderly man's beautiful voice did certainly touch my heart. (As we know with Mormonism too, if they can evoke an emotional reaction they can hook you more easily, and keep you).

They do not especially look out for Jewish households, AmyJo, in their door to door work. At least, not that I was taught. Seeing Jewish symbols around would neither encourage them to target a door nor discourage them. I don't remember any emphasis being placed on specifically trying to convert Jews. That would be even more of a major challenge than doing so with Christians. And both endeavours are most often entirely unsuccessful.

Sorry I can't be more specific as to the teachings so I can explain it more exactly. But I'm happy to see that I have forgotten a lot of their details.

The reason I have mentioned JWs quite a bit lately is that finally I can talk about it more. I never spoke of it to anyone in my life, family or friends, and certainly not a counsellor or minister of other faiths. I just pushed it into the background and didn't really process the experience, which I found far more hurtful than my relatively brief interlude with the Mormons. That's another reason why I mention it here every once in a while - there are a lot of parallels in my experiences with both. Perhaps that's why I consented to baptism relatively quickly (four months), although the missionaries told me that was very slow. Their approach (proselytizing) and realities (separation from other faiths, for instance) were familiar to me and rather than scenting danger, I was lulled.

That too is why my very bad baptism experience with the Mormons was so painful for me - I had fully believed in the JW doctrine, had made a lot of friends there (and had been in love with a JW man) and was thrilled as a young adult to be baptized into their faith. I didn't feel that my baptism was only a JW thing but that it was meaningful as something between myself and God, in whom I strongly believed. The Mormon baptism happened because there was so much pressure to do it and I felt, on an emotional level, that it would be a meaningful addition to my previous baptism. Instead, it was farcical, embarrassing, painful, to the extent that it kept me away from church for the next six weeks or more, until the missionaries convinced me to forget about that and return to the meetings. I was devastated at the time, thinking that the awful Mormon baptismal experience (where the presiding bishop, who was unknown to me, accused me of having an affair with the married friend who was baptizing me and held up proceedings while he yelled at my friend, in my hearing while I was relegated to lurking in a dark hallway alone), had literally washed away my deeply meaningful and happy JW baptism.

As my Mormon interlude was so strange and stressful and as I began to notice more and more negative factors comparable to my JW years, the two groups began to run together a bit in my head. It's helping me to talk about the JW part, which is connected, for me, with the Mormon part. Initially when I came here I felt totally embarrassed to have been a member in both groups. Now I understand more and can accept my choices in the light of my information, knowledge and experiences at the time.

As I've said before, religion hurts. Especially the kind that harshly judges you for not falling into lockstep with their tenets. The ones that seek to wipe out your individuality and freedom of choice. The ones full of self-righteousness who don't do much to help outsiders (especially JWs) in a practical way. The ones that dishonestly seek to appeal to your emotions to ensnare you. The ones that throw people away. The ones that shame and shun. That turn people off God. That cause tragic outcomes, such as being a causative factor in suicides.

I do not blame anyone at all for asking questions and arriving at harsh conclusions about various faiths.

I can understand someone's animosity towards not just churches but to the god they preach.

On a different note, it's a sunny Saturday here in Beautiful British Columbia and I am taking some little neighbourhood kids out to buy a book each at my favourite bookstore. I'm helping them learn to read. Maybe one day long in the future they'll think fondly of the neighbour lady who taught them the enormous pleasure to be found between the covers of books of all sorts. We are not adherents of the same religion. And it doesn't matter even a tiny bit.

Bliss.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2019 01:43PM by Nightingale.

It was in her post EB you must not have read it:

Nightingale wrote:
"(Sidetrack: JWs identify very strongly with
> Judaism. Long story but may be of interest if
> anyone cares to look it up. They used an elderly
> Jewish man to voice many of the films they showed
> at conferences, at least when I was a JW. I can't
> remember now why they felt the strong connection -
> something to do with their theology. "

Amyjo: I don't think I expressed that exactly right. In any case, JWs don't specifically look out for Jewish folks to try and convert. They don't identify with them in the sense of sharing religious beliefs. More, it's due to a strong belief in the OT and a lot of exposition about it in their printed materials and talks at their Kingdom Halls. As I said below in another post, they refer to the OT as the Hebrew scriptures.

Too, I was a teenager when I joined them, not learned in scripture or history. More what I'm remembering is the equal time, so to speak, that they gave to the OT along with the NT. And the Jewish voice in some of their films. It lent authenticity or so I felt. More of an emotional reaction on my part than any actual fact on either side.

They consider themselves Christians so definitely don't identify with Jews in that regard.

Of course, Christians don't regard JWs as Christians due to wide disparity in the beliefs and origins of each faith.

I feel frustrated over all the competing beliefs. I want to know facts.

Should it be this difficult?

Sharing an affinity with someone does not imply sharing an identity with them. So please don't take what I said out of context either.

:) Thanks for your clarifying where you stand on the subject.

I still don't believe JW has much in common at all with Judaism, or even Christianity for that matter. It is a stand alone religion. It's not that I don't have respect for it as a religion insofar as they respect the rights and boundaries of others.

I really don't care for proselytizing even if I weren't Jewish. That may have something to do with having been Mormon. I'm suspect of any sect trying to sell their religion and really don't like door-to-door missionaries showing up uninvited regardless of what denomination they say they're from. I've only had JW or Mormon missionaries though in my lifetime on my doorstep. Neither are welcome. Since resigning my LDS membership the Mormon mishies went away too. That was a bonus!

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sharing an affinity with someone does not imply
> sharing an identity with them. So please don't
> take what I said out of context either.

Amyjo, I don't think I took your response out of context.

I said, in part: "JWs don't specifically look out for Jewish folks to try and convert. They don't identify with them in the sense of sharing religious beliefs."

I was expanding on my previous comments to try and clarify, not intimating that you had said anything about JWs identifying with Jews, if that's what you thought.

One definition of "identifying with" another is "to feel that you are similar to someone and can understand them or their situation". I merely clarified my own words by stating that JWs don't believe that they share religious beliefs with Jews.

Sharing an affinity merely means natural liking. Synonyms include empathy, rapport, sympathy.

On another note, in terms of not liking door to door preachers, I can see that. I could see it even while I did it myself due to it being a requirement of my religion at the time (as a JW). Turnabout is fair play I guess: When I see JWs even on the street now (weirdly, prominent in my two favourite Saturday haunts; I have to pass by their magazine kiosks every week) I feel a surge of annoyance just for seeing them even if they don't speak to me. So now I really know what it's like to be on the other side. And I'm sorry for all the people I bugged, although I never stuck my foot in anybody's door. At least I managed to keep hold of my own manners.

I bought one when I was in Israel. I am not sure if it is appropriate to put it up though



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2019 07:45PM by bona dea.

How interesting. I'd probably buy one too if/when I get to visit there. :)

It's on my bucket short list of international places to visit.

I'd say it tops you list.

There and Switzerland. A woman where I worship went to Switzerland last month, with a friend - on a budget ... for an 11 day tour they planned themselves (no tour guide.) They bought the Rick Steves book and a rail pass, and traveled the country seeing the sights for themselves. She says they didn't eat at fancy restaurants or spend a lot of money at expensive hotels, so was able to save a lot that way.

They saw most of the country ie, Geneva area and as far north as Bern (where my ancestors are from.) She didn't do Zurich (no desire or something to that effect.)

If I travel to Switzerland I'd want to see the whole country. It would probably take me 15 days on the cheap. She told me to either buy the eight day rail pass or the 15 day rail pass, for what they're worth.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I bought one when I was in Israel. I am not sure
> if it is appropriate to put it up though

"Appropriate" means two different things here.

1) The "klaf" (parchment), inside of the mezuzah, is just Bible verses from Deuteronomy, so from your own personal religious standpoint, treat a mezuzah holder which contains a klaf as you would your own personal copy of the Bible. In this sense, and especially as you are not a Jew, the mezuzah does not rise to the status of a "sacred object" (as would a Torah scroll, for example). If there is no parchment inside the case (most of the time, these are sold separately, even at the point of purchase), the empty mezuzah holder is (technically, at least) just a "holder"--an object. Although Jews would not like to see it desecrated, if you treat it with social "respect," you have every right to mount it wherever you want to.

2) Even an empty mezuzah case will signal, to most anyone who knows what it is, that your household is Jewish. If you do not want this signal to apply to you, then you might consider hanging it on an inside-your-house door (such as to your bedroom....but NOT a door which leads directly into a bathroom because this is considered Jewishly inappropriate/disrespectful).

If you search for "how to hang a mezuzah" on You Tube, there are many videos. Most of these will be leaning Orthodox, as most of the Jews who are really concerned about the finer points of having, and mounting, a mezuzah tend to be more Orthodox. What these videos will clearly teach, however, is how the "diagonal" mounting process works (this is difficult to explain in words, and a filmed demonstration of the mounting process helps tremendously), including exactly where, on the uprights of the door, a mezuzah should be hung.

If you purchased a beautiful mezuzah case in Israel (and many mezuzah cases ARE artwork), then you have every right to mount it in your home if you choose to do this.

Hope this helps.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2019 01:30PM by Tevai.

Right. If Bona Dea were to hang one on her doorpost of her home for decorative purposes I don't know why that would be a problem.

The Shema prayer inside the Mezuzah casing is the actual "mezuzah." The casing is just the housing for the mezuzah itself.

A "kosher" mezuzah (is the Shema prayer,) is supposedly handwritten very precisely rather than printed, by expert scribes. Our gift shop sells the printed scripts for a dollar that fit inside most mezuzah casings rather than going to the expense of a hand scripted one that could easily cost hundreds or thousands of dollars.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/256915/jewish/What-Is-a-Mezuzah.htm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2019 01:59PM by Amyjo.

Thank you.I don't want to appropriate someone else's culture in a way to offend them.I think I will hang it though.It is lovely.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2019 03:41PM by bona dea.

Me: Question: What is leaving "by default"?

AJ:
> That typically means when people go inactive by
> not attending even if not by resigning or because
> they stopped believing in Mormonism. They are
> referred to in the Morridor as "Jack Mormons," or
> used to be.

Ah, that clears that up for me. But. I thought Jack Mormons were still believers, just that they do not regularly participate. I thought there was a distinction between them and those who formally resign or who indicate their position of disbelief, either by direct statement or by actions (not observing Mormon practices). It is the latter, I thought (lack of belief) that gets labelled apostate. For instance, they still cling to some beliefs but do not participate regularly.


NG:
>I've always objected to Mormons calling former members apostates. It is, by definition, pejorative.


AJ:
> Interesting take on apostates. Because that's a
> pejorative that Mormons use with a high rate of
> frequency to describe those who leave by choice
> and those who denounce it.

Yes, the term is not exclusive to Mormonism.


AJ:
> Hmm, interesting. I wonder if that had anything to
> do with why JW kept pestering me until I had to
> hand deliver a cease and desist letter to the
> Kingdom Hall in my neighborhood. A "No
> proselytizing and No soliciting" sign on my door
> didn't do it.

I don`t think JWs particularly single out Jewish folks to convert them. I think even they must realize that is a bit of a non-starter. Every Saturday morning in our group meeting before going out door to door we would get maps of neighbourhoods where we were supposed to go that day as well as a pep talk and prayer. I was fairly active in that way as my attitude was if you believe in it you should actively participate, and I did both for some years. (Besides, they keep track of who goes out preaching and relegated members to so-called inactive status if they did not regularly take part in the door to door preaching requirements).

As I have mentioned before, the no soliciting sign itself does not fend them off as they are specifically instructed that JWs are not soliciting!


AJ:
> I keep a mezuzah on my doorpost which would be an
> indicator to JW that I'm Jewish. I told the man at
> the Kingdom Hall that I do not permit any form of
> proselytizing because of my religion, so I expect
> them to honor my request.

I think most people would recognize the Jewish visual but it would not indicate to JWs to bypass that dwelling. You got lucky that the person you spoke to heard you as obviously they call on many people of different religious beliefs and the fact that the householder (as JWs call them) is religious can be seen to be a good thing - at least you believe in God! That is a better starting point than encountering an atheist. :)

Thanks, AJ, for answering my questions.

Nightingale,

My parents were "Jack Mormons" following their civil divorce. They didn't go to the bother of getting a temple divorce, when they each remarried to inactive Mormons. Were they considered apostates? I don't believe they were as inactives where they lived as much as referred to as simply "Jack Mormons" in the Morridor (Idaho and Utah.) Mom believed in Mormonism until the day she died, albeit she was the convert. She took up smoking again after divorcing dad, that is what kept her out of the church house as she didn't feel worthy enough to attend. Add that she lived with her second husband before they married as well. So in her eyes as the eyes of the church that made her well you understand, a "sinner." So she quit church, but she didn't stop believing in Mormonism anyway. Which she sold herself short is my belief because of the unnecessary guilt trip that made for her, and the shaming that went with it for the last chapter of her life with my step-dad. She no longer felt worthy enough to attend church. What kind of church does that? Other churches don't shame members if they smoke tobacco or violate other Mormon commandments. But she didn't consider herself an apostate either because her beliefs were still in alignment with the cult. She was too embarrassed to attend after she stopped wearing her garments and took up her cigarette habit again. My stepdad was a rogue Mormon all of his life. His mother was a TBM. I don't believe he ever was.

Now my dad was a Jack Mormon who believed in parts and rejected other parts. Same for my stepmom. They didn't consider themselves apostates either. Just inactive Mormons which in the morridor they jokingly referred to themselves and their friends as "Jack Mos." My stepmother would jokingly say that at least when she died she knew she'd be with her friends in the hereafter, and not the snooty Mormon ones in the Celestial Kingdom where reservations were required lol. She hated Fast and Testimony meetings with a passion. Thought it was a lot of nonsense and baloney. That was too much for her to take in, which was a crack in her shelf early on. All the crying and tears and the emotional wrecks up on the stand. She was a logical rational woman and nurse in life, who didn't care for all that public display of emotion.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2019 09:18PM by Amyjo.