After reading a bunch of stuff on the Recovery Board, I was reminded of someone I used to go to church with. I've been out for a few years and recall one evening when I was living alone and still not 100% out of the church (now live with semi-active mom, but she's cool and am out of the church) when all of a sudden, the missionaries and a dude I used to go to church with popped in on me. They were obviously trying to get me to go back to church, so they sent the super intelligent mathematician that worked at the local college. I guess they thought I could bond with or him possibly not be able to out argue (Socratic style, not by yelling) him.
In any event, it was probably around 5-5:30 pm, so I was eating dinner. They showed up at my studio apartment and tried say that I told the bishop I wanted to take the missionary discussions. I told them that I told the bishop I would have to think about it. I guess that means yes to a Mormon bishop.
In any event, they eventually decided to just bear their testimonies. I was already annoyed that they interrupted my quiet dinner at home, so I let the old dude bear his to me. I more or less told him that his reasoning for believing in the church was flawed. It involved his kids, so that was probably a mistake. I basically told him that he assigned a miracle to god after he had made a bad career move. His problem was easy enough to solve, he just needed to see a different doctor, anyone could tell that.
So of course he god pissed. I was probably supposed to be intimidated by an older dude and his posse, or just go along and say yes to everything. They didn't really know what to do when I said no. So after he was visibly upset (REALLY FREAKING PISSED OFF) he insisted that the church was real because his life worked out, and that meant that god wanted him to make a bad career move so he could raise a family and be nearly dirt poor doing it. Heck, he moved to the worst place with the lowest paying job on his list of offers, and even passed up one in New York. Where is he now? Dumpy ol' Oshkosh Wisconsin.
So I'm just wondering, anyone else have a similar experience? I'm sure I'm not unique.
I don't mean to sou d like a jerk, I just can't understand how such a smart guy can get duped by his religion. Plus, unmentioned above, I felt bad afterwards, knowing that the dude was probably gonna go home and tell his wife and then they'd be upset. What I actualy said wasn't something I'm proud of, I was simply telling the story and was wondering if anyone else had a similar experience.
Absolutely can relate. Wife is a inactive. I resigned over 10 years ago. All my adult kids resigned. Because the wife is still on their rolls, they come by 2 and 3's to tag team the apostate and the Mrs. I have conversations with them like yours all the time. They get heated because in their protective bubble of mormondumb at church they're not used to having anyone challenge them with facts and logic. Well done sir..you did good my friend. Stood your ground. No, they were not expecting that. Well done. Enjoyed your story. Keep up the good work. Welcome to the forum. Please come back. I don't think you are a jerk at all.
I use to go behind the fence and play with my uncles bull. It would come charging and then I'd step aside. It was great fun, I never got gored either! But finally stopped when my g-dad told me to quit it.
Another antidote that may relate is that I see lots of young people who literally give up decent jobs here in Utah because it doesn't suit their Mormon image. They would rather be unemployed than accept a job that may have a schedule on Sunday. It's considered the righteous thing to be jobless. Their attitude is something I don't understand. They are usually also the ones that only accept white collar kind of work. And wouldn't be caught dead in a factory.
And welcome to the forum five.o.charlie, we look forward to reading your posts!
I think a lot of us have had similar experiences, of varying intensities of bluntness/frankness. The "rules" depend a lot on context and (here) ENVIRONMENT.
They came to your place unannounced and uninvited, I'd say you don't owe them any politeness or hospitality. As uninvited guests (whatever their motivation) they at least owe YOU the politeness of not impinging even more on you by switching into missionary mode.
In regards to your story, I think if I was feeling in a prankish mood that evening I might've invited them in to share some dinner with me or whatever, and give them an earful of my own testimony or experiences.
In some encounters I've just asked the mishies outright, "if you just want to talk normal and have a normal person conversation about this thing, fine, but let's try to talk like normal people please?"
"He insisted that the church was real because his life worked out, and that meant that god wanted him to make a bad career move so he could raise a family and be nearly dirt poor doing it."
In reply, "Hey great, guy, you know, we all need to tell stories to ourselves to make our lives seem meaningful in retrospect, with the help of conscious or unconscious cherry-picking and selective memory! I'm glad that your story works for you."
You really don't have to listen to strangers who interrupt you at home. You could say something like, "I'm in the middle of dinner and I'm not interested. Please do not come again without an appointment. And I will not be making an appointment."
Or you could just refuse to answer the door. Or keep the door shut while saying, "Not interested."
On accepting a job offer in New York: If it's NYC that you are talking about, housing can run up to 2-3 times there compared to what you would pay elsewhere. Food, entertainment, etc. are also costly. Personal safety is an issue as well. People don't always make employment decisions based on pay alone.
If I remember correctly, it was a research job at NYU, so most likely he would have been fine. I'm just perplexed that he chose to work at GEEK SQUAD fixing computers instead of using his PhD. It just seems so illogical and unnecessary. to me. The problem he and his family were having would've been solved if he moved ANYWHERE, and that was the point I was making. He didn't have to take a low paying job just to figure out what was wrong.
You don't know anyone's personal reasons for doing something. Could be they didn't want to leave a sick or needy relative. You assuming things about people's personal decisions is just as bad as mormons making judgments and assumptions about you.
You're not obligated to let anyone in your domaine; it took me forever to realize that fact. When we had just found out the truth about TSCC, we had an interesting event happen with the missionaries.
It was a Saturday afternoon, and my husband, myself, and our son were having lunch and talking about some of the things we had found out about the church.
My husband said that he wished he could have just 5 minutes talking with the missionaries and nicely tell them some facts.
With no exaggeration, not more than 10 or 15 seconds later, while eating our lunch, our son who was looking out towards the street, said:"wait a minute! Who's that coming over towards our house?!"
It was the missionaries! They had parked across the street and walked across directly to our house.
We answered the door, invited them in, and invited them to join us for lunch. While we were eating, they listened to us as we told them that they were good people who didn't need an organization telling them to lengthen their stride or raise the bar. We asked them how well they thought they knew JS, and informed them of a few things about them.
The junior companion was quiet and looked confused; his wheels were turning in his mind. The senior comp didn't argue, but tried to vaguely explain JS. Our conversation ended friendly and hopefully, got them to do some thinking. We never saw them again; hmmm...wonder why? :)
After I stop attending, I became the target. I foolishly allowed the missionaries to return over and over and they used manipulation, guilt and shame to try to coerce me into returning. Finally, I came to my senses and told them to take a hike. I am sure that dropping the f-bomb infuriated them and hurt their tender feelings.