One opinion, shared in this Sunday's NYT,

"As the coronavirus crisis has unfolded in America, Higginbotham has noticed other parallels. “The response that I see has followed a very similar trajectory: initial public denials or reluctance to publicly admit that anything was wrong, then attempts to minimize the severity of what was happening, rooted in an institutional inability to acknowledge failure,” he said. “The initial response was hampered by a lack of equipment and a breakdown in communication that revealed that despite years of planning, the state was hopelessly ill prepared for such a catastrophe.”

Yet one crucial difference also stands out to him. Soviet officials lied about Chernobyl and tried to shift blame but accepted that remediation was the state’s responsibility. “There was a lot of disinformation and cover-up, but as far as I know nobody in the Politburo was on the phone to the party leaders in Kyiv and Minsk saying, ‘You’re on your own — sort it out yourselves,’ ” said Higginbotham.

Chernobyl is now widely seen as a signal event on the road to the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Coronavirus may someday be seen as a similar inflection point in the story of American decline. A country that could be brought to its knees this quickly was sick well before the virus arrived." Michelle Goldberg, NYT Columnist

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/25/opinion/sunday/trump-coronavirus.html?auth=login-facebook

I would take anything in the NYT with a grain of salt.

I view this as honest commentary / opinion, independent on the writer's choice of where to submit it.

Everyone knows that DT HATES THE MEDIA, are you on that train too?

Just go look at the numbers....... The USA has less than 4% of world population. BUT we have over 25% of the reported cases and deaths.

Clear case of the US Gov't getting caught with its pants down around the ankles. The beloved orange man in charge should have thought twice about shutting down the CDC team that was specifically tasked to look out for pandemics.

Also, the denials in January/February that there was even a problem here, are what has led to what we are seeing now.

It spread faster than gossip in Relief Society. You could observe American style lockdown and see that it wasn’t going to work. It only works if everyone is doing it. For some reason, it was too much to ask. But we also think freedom is worth dying for. Nobody else has to die, so this is a big improvement over war.

exactly, freedom is what's built into our American sentiment, this is why the spread was faster in America and more out of control. China did well because they barred people in their homes and welded them shut. They were forced to obey. They are communists, with a dictator. And it kept them safer (in this instance).

If people would just listen and respect the governor, it would make a difference. I always where the mask when shopping but I see a general pattern that younger people refuse to comply, parents with young kids go into the store and it's business as usual. They don't care, they are selfish.

That's our greatest downfall, America is selfish. "Give me freedom or give me death." Patrick Henry.

If you take a look at the big picture, I get the impression that there are more cases in countries that have more people that travel or countries that are,visited by travelers.

csuprovograd Wrote:
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> If you take a look at the big picture, I get the
> impression that there are more cases in countries
> that have more people that travel or countries
> that are,visited by travelers.


I read that a major contributor to America's current dilemma is the vast numbers of international flights that routinely and frequently arrived in NYC from all over the world prior, and up to, the extent of the problem being realized.

csuprovograd Wrote:
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> If you take a look at the big picture, I get the
> impression that there are more cases in countries
> that have more people that travel or countries
> that are,visited by travelers.


Yes, that's what I was thinking. Toronto has almost a 50/50 immigrant to Canadian-born ratio. The diversity makes it an amazing city, but it also means that there is a lot of travelling as people visit their homes and then come back again.

The first person who had it in the General Toronto area returned to the area after visiting Wuhan. We had everything under control until people started returning home from abroad and then it took off from there as their family members became infected.

I imagine that there is a lot of travelling in the States as well.

in retrospect, it would have been valuable if international visitors or those returning home were put into automatic isolation or quarantine. Not many countries achieved this in time to make a real difference.

oldpobot Wrote:
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> in retrospect, it would have been valuable if
> international visitors or those returning home
> were put into automatic isolation or quarantine.
> Not many countries achieved this in time to make a
> real difference.


Yes, that's the problem. They eventually did start requiring anyone travelling home to self-quarantine for 14 days after arriving, but the spread had already begun by that point.

American exceptionalism!

We made America great again!!

elderolddog Wrote:
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> American exceptionalism!
>
> We made America great again!!

We are definitely #1, in terms of Corona Deaths.

In terms of per capita deaths, Sweden and other NOrthern European Countries have higher death rates than the US, but not by much and Sweden chose to not do Social Distancing, yet their rates are about the same trajectory as in the US.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-deaths-days-since-per-million

It seems like crowded urban areas have a lot to do with it spreading and killing. This virus loves nursing homes, cruise ships and hospitals, which have crowded conditions, high humidity and old people with pre-existing underlying conditions.

I know a lot more women get it than men, but a lot more men die of it than women, because of the underlying pre-existing conditions and higher risk categories men tend to occupy, thanks to overindulging.

It also kills a much higher percentage of black and brown people and exacerbates the massive racial injustice and inequities that existed long before this plague came along.

The solution seems easy.
1. Test to identify those with antibodies, which protect them from Coronavirus.
2. Ask them to donate their plasma for a cure.
3. isolate those antibodies and reproduce them on a huge commercial scale.
4. Administer the antibodies to people by 'infecting' them (using phage capsid therapy) with motor proteins that can alter the DNA of a cell to tell it to reproduce antibodies until the corona virus is no longer overpopulating inside the human body.

According to a member of my family who is a Dr. working on a cure for Corona Virus, this is exactly what they're doing now with some successful trials.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
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> The solution seems easy.
> 1. Test to identify those with antibodies, which
> protect them from Coronavirus.

I have read that it's not certain yet that having antibodies protects one from CV. They did assume that at first as that is how many diseases work but lately I've heard that they are rethinking this. Perhaps due to reported cases of people having recovered from the virus and then later testing positive again. Of course, there are at present some testing issues such as both false positives and false negatives. This will skew the data and conclusions until more is understood.

In any case, even if it's true that contracting CV will result in developing antibodies it is thought, at present at least, that one's immunity from having antibodies may only last 2-3 years (not lifelong). Of course, this too is subject to change as more information is gathered.

This virus is not thought, at present anyway, to be like measles or chickenpox where contracting either will convey lifetime immunity. At best, we will potentially require yearly shots, as with seasonal flu, to try and avoid it.


> According to a member of my family who is a Dr.
> working on a cure for Corona Virus, this is
> exactly what they're doing now with some
> successful trials.

It's good to know there are very smart people worldwide who are staying up nights to try and find the cure for the rest of us. Here's hoping for a major breakthrough asap.

China and SK report cases of people being infected and recovering two and even three times. There truly is no guarantee that vaccines will work with COVID the way they do with most other viral pathogens.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
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> China and SK report cases of people being infected
> and recovering two and even three times.

Good point, LW. It's not only the fact that false negatives and positives occur but the finding that, indeed, re-infection is a thing.


> There truly is no guarantee that vaccines will work with
> COVID the way they do with most other viral
> pathogens.

Very scary prospect. No wonder I'm hearing many people (even in the US of A!) say that we could be in line for a prolonged, if not permanent, "new normal".

I can certainly see a certain mistrust of others becoming entrenched. Going out now has lost its sparkle as people don't interact in a shop or in passing any more like they used to. Back in the good old days when strangers would smile and greet each other and exchange pleasantries about the spring weather and such. In fact, many people don't even make eye contact with each other now.

And we scurry past each other in grocery aisles and doorways as if we're all contagious. Oh, wait...

I don't think things are going to bounce back to "normal" by any means. More like a very. slow. roll. And life may never get back to where we thought "normal" was before CV. Our loss. But meanwhile, heroes walk amongst us. And compassion abounds. At least, in my experience.

We won't go back to normal. The medical crisis will probably last into next year, and even after that is over people will probably not go back to shaking hands and kissing each other on the cheek. Meanwhile the economy will be 10% smaller, at best, in the first quarter of next year than it was in the first quarter of this year; and the unemployment rate will still be well north of 10%. There will consequently be millions of people who fall out of the workforce as well as millions more who have lost their homes and their retirement savings.

A country, a world, can't go through such trauma and not change. The aftermath will be worse, I believe, than that of the Great Recession and in some ways may resemble the Great Depression. These catastrophes change cultures. Permanently.

It has spread faster and taken hold on more lives in such a short time than the Book of Mormon ever did.

mikemitchell Wrote:
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> It has spread faster and taken hold on more lives
> in such a short time than the Book of Mormon ever
> did.

What I would have done as a missionary to make the Book of Mormon go viral!
The closest it got was on Broadway!

The silver lining of the pandemic and associated economic collapse is that it makes Mormonism seem not so bad.

I think it makes Mormonism completely feckless.

Naah, it's obvious god is punishing the US for Franklin Graham, Jerry Falwell Jr, the Family Research Council, young earth creationists, and all the TV prosperity gospel preachers & faith healers infesting the airwaves.

U failed to mention snake handlers, Why was that ???

I like that. The religious nutters are always blaming everyone else. It's time they took the hit.

Whether it's a panic or a pandemic, one thing's for sure. The best ones are still made right here in the good old U.S.A.

Aside from obvious target issues such as unpreparedness until too late, I believe one factor is the lack of a unified healthcare system. Healthcare response was fractured as states competed with each other for supplies and finances. Many countries, especially in Europe, were better able to coordinate efforts country wide.

I think the fractured system to which you refer is that between the states and between the states and the federal government. it is the lack of coordination in those relationships that rendered, and render, the policy response so abysmally ineffective.

The healthcare system is a different bundle of problems. When there is no basic system that operates nationally and includes everyone, a country cannot even deliver vaccines and rudimentary care. There are literally millions, perhaps tens of millions, of Americans who won't go to hospitals or doctors in present circumstances.

Effective national leadership can overcome some of these flaws but not when the national motto is "the buck stops somewhere over the rainbow."

Angela Merkel is a tough old East-German born scientist (I forget which variety, I think some kind of chemistry) and she has the sense to direct research efforts and containment efforts in ways that show a difference.

I tend to think of her, Emmanuel Macron, and Justin Trudeau as the new leaders of the Western World.

It doesn't help either when you toss out the pandemic playbook created with thought and expertise just because it came from the previous administration.

Indeed.

NSC infectious diseases unit? Nah, don't need it.

CDC budget for pandemic preparation? Slash that budget.

The plan for pandemic response? Throw it in the back of the closet, fire the managers.

Drills between the CDC and various state authorities? What a waste.

Oops.

And now the CDC is giving suggestions to the meat packers. Not rules, suggestions. While Trump forces them back into opening.

You can't make this stuff up.

Just make sure you punish those responsible at the next election.

Assuming those responsible don't try to postpone said election.

We just don't know what we are doing. I'm hoping next time a pandemic hits America will be better prepared with a plan.

Yup. Biden said (within the past week) that during the transition, when they tried to talk to the Trump team about pandemic preparedness and response, the new administration was uninterested in discussing it.

I'm enjoying all the time I have to read.


There's a Simon & Garfunkel song from when I was on my mission that has the phrases, "I touch no one and no one touches me" and I wonder how many people are singing that right now?

Aside from the obvious about policies that hamstrung the nation's ability to react, as well as a fragmented and capitalistic health care system which I think are real.

The statement that Coronavirus spread faster in America than elsewhere is a little deceptive. Outside of Italy the US has tested more people per capita than everyone else. Yet the deaths per capita put the US at 10th, with every other country ahead of them being in Europe.

There are other things going on here. Europe and the US have the most transparent reporting. Europe and the US have the most strict open record laws. Europe and the US have the least to lose by telling the whole story.

The data tells us one thing, I'm just not real sure that the reality is represented in the data. For example in the US, during the month of March the average number of deaths increased. Not surprising since we are in the middle of a pandemic. What was surprising was that the increase was twice as large as the reported number of Coronavirus deaths. This suggests that the pandemic is causing problems for the population that go beyond contracting the virus.

All I'm saying is that we should beware the data as much as we should beware rants from Agent Orange.

jacob Wrote:
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> Europe and the US have the most transparent reporting. Europe
> and the US have the most strict open record laws.
> Europe and the US have the least to lose by
> telling the whole story.

This is true of Canada also.

Just saying...

Do you have a source for those statements? I believe your per capita death rates are from late March and that the situation has changed. I would like to check that.

Thanks either way.

This is updated today it looks like.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/


Also I'd love to acknowledge Nightingale's statement. Canada should be included.

Thanks for the source. I'll take a look at it.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
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> Thanks for the source. I'll take a look at it.


I quoted another source above, that shows the same trends.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-deaths-days-since-per-million?time=2020-01-30..2020-04-29


What I find most interesting is that Sweeden has almost the exact trajectory as the US and they did not practice social distancing there. I'd think that their trajectory would be a lot higher than ours, if they didn't make any changes like we did here in the US, in places like WA and CA, which have managed to flatten the curve a lot more than average in the US.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2020 03:12PM by schrodingerscat.

>Outside of Italy the US has tested more people per capita than everyone else.

Not true.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ (see last column)

The US has tested 18,400 per million.

Iceland, for example, has tested 139,400 per million.

Spain, Italy, Germany, Canada, Russia, Belgium, Switzerland, Portugal, Ireland, Israel, Portugal, Austria, singapore, Qatar, UAE, Denmark, Norway, Czechia, Australia, Luxembourg, Kuwait, Bahrain, Estonia, New Zealand, Slovenia, Lithuania, Hong Kong, Latvia, Cyprus, Andorra, San Marino, Malta, Brunei Liechtenstein, Cayman Islands, even Greenland have done more per capita testing than the US.

The US has done more total tests (although numbers are not listed from China), but not more per capita.

Yes, that is the data I have been seeing. It fits with the experts’ verbal statements as well, for otherwise US testing would already be adequate.

Not that I blame New Yorkers, themselves, but the international travel there which was not initially traced, plus the dense population, crowded subways, crowded streets, apartment and office elevators, shared HVAC systems in apartment buildings in winter, etc, all contributed.

In Canada, the problem is with the densely populated urban areas, where a lot of travelling occurs. The first cases in the Toronto area were from people who had travelled here from China and Iran.

In Rural areas, or provinces where there is less travel, the problem has not been as extensive.

It's difficult to control the situation when you have several people travelling home to Canada, not being honest about not feeling well, which happened several times with people coming back from China. Somehow they were allowed on the planes and as soon as they arrived back here, they went to the hospital.

Interesting report on CNN about why Sweden has so many more deaths than their neighbors. Seems pretty obvious that their laid back attitude towards the threat of the pandemic, is causing a lot of people to die, especially the elderly in nursing homes.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2020/04/29/south-africa-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic-hiv-aids-lessons-mckenzie-pkg-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/coronavirus-intl/

Looking at cases per million population they have fared worse than Norway, yes, but better than the Netherlands, Spain, France, Belgium and the UK. Now they think they are approaching herd immunity and can truly think about getting back to their lives while most other countries have only put off the inevitable.

The Three Nephites paid me a visit today and delivered this message.

God's True Church has been abandoned by too many! America is being punished because she failed to keep her True Church together. Italy was punished because her One Untrue Church stood in the way of the True One. China was punished because of the flat nose curse that Brigham Young talked about. If they had been more loyal in the Pre-existence, they would never have been stricken with the Coronavirus. And they would have been rewarded with Anglo noses!

The best that we can do to protect ourselves now is to pay out tithes and offerings to the Mormon church again. Pay on the stimulus check if it's all you have, and throw in a fast offering to boot. Never mind your kids sniveling for food in the background; the Mormon God must be appeased at all costs!