She also shut down mass murder gun industry in NZ.
Can we make her co-queen of the world?

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> She also shut down mass murder gun industry in NZ.
>
> Can we make her co-queen of the world?

Mass Murder Gun Industry?

A firearm is only as good or "bad" as the person using it.

More tan 90% of bank robbers use a car - yet we still have them.

0% of bank robbers use hand grenades because they aren't allowed to buy any. Funny how that works.

Guns are exclusively used for killing. Cars are used for transportation. A bank robber using a car is using the car for transportation. A bank robber using a gun is using the gun for killing.

Your example makes no sense.

I'm being silly, because I refuse to rein myself in:


"Countless studies have shown that people have opinions and that facts won't change them; them being both the people and the opinions."


"Everyone should think like I do!", said everyone with an opinion.


"I'm right, you're wrong!", said everyone to whomever's opinion differed.


"Oh, let's forget our differences and have sex!", said horny people to other horny people with differing opinions. "What could possibly go wrong?"

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm being silly, because I refuse to rein myself
> in:
>
>
> "Countless studies have shown that people have
> opinions and that facts won't change them; them
> being both the people and the opinions."
>
>
> "Everyone should think like I do!", said everyone
> with an opinion.
>
>
> "I'm right, you're wrong!", said everyone to
> whomever's opinion differed.
>
>
> "Oh, let's forget our differences and have sex!",
> said horny people to other horny people with
> differing opinions. "What could possibly go
> wrong?"



Sound advice.... now where did I hear that before.

"Exclusively"? Most firearm owners use to assure their own self-defense or to defend others against criminals. The main purpose is a disincentive. At 3:00am in the morning you hear your back basement door being kicked in by a criminal a warning shot will often scare them away. It beats getting robbed, beaten, murdered, or raped. It is peace of mind knowing that you have an efficient means of self-defense in case you ever need it. Remember when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

There are other purposes of guns. Collectors showcase them. The summer Olympics have a Shooting event. Many folks enjoy recreational target practice. If the only purpose of a gun was exclusively to kill, our police or armored car guards would not be allowed to use them, but they do as a disincentive to would be criminals.

By the way, criminals use cars to travel to their victims.

Why just today there was this article:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-man-fatally-shoots-home-intruder-attacking-wife-police

Ted Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why just today there was this article:
>
> https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-man-fatally-sho
> ots-home-intruder-attacking-wife-police

Anecdotal examples do not paint a full picture. If you want anecdotal examples, I had a roommate in college whose younger brother got so scared of intruders in their small, rural, Idaho farm community, that he started sleeping with a loaded gun under his pillow. One night the gun went off and the family had to plan a funeral. The best data available shows that having a gun in your home makes you far more likely to be the victim of gun violence, whether intentional or accidental. Of course real good data is hard to come by because the NRA has lobbied Congressional Republicans to ban federal funding for studying gun violence. It's almost as if the NRA doesn't want the data to come to light...

There you go again, thinking that facts bear some relation to truth. As "anybody" wrote a couple of years ago, we live in a post-reality world in which truth is transcendent and requires no foundation in anything so mundane as empirical authenticity.

You should give it a try. Make up your own reality and stick with it no matter what anybody else says, thinks, or does. The freedom is liberating!

I am not making up my own "reality." One reality that we all share is that there are mean people out there (in every country), who are criminally minded and prey on the vulnerable. Another reality, if you are a US citizen like me, is that you live in a Country that supports gun ownership under constitutional law. Those are two realities that you cannot escape if you choose to live in the US. I did make or create those two realities.

The common definition of "anecdotal" is a story based on a personal account rather than facts or research. That link is not my personal account. I don't know those people. I do not live in Florida. The facts of that situation are supported by several other news agencies in that area. I assume that the wife in that account is grateful that she is alive and that her husband was able to save her. What I "want" is for people to be happy in the country they live in. There are exmos on this board, US citizens, who do not agree with the laws of this country. What I want is for them to move to a country of their choosing where they will be happy, with the laws that they agree with (e.g. Canada, Australia, etc).

In this case the word anecdotal is meant to describe a narrow narrative of a wider discussion. The fact that there are x number of people who used a gun to protect themselves and y number of people who used a gun to inflict harm on other people is lost when you bring up one example with a positive outcome.

BTW using a gun for self defense happens in less than 1% of crimes that involve contact. And having a gun in these types of situations doesn't protect. Without a gun 4.2% of people in these types of crimes were injured and with a gun 4.1% of people were injured.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091743515001188

All the while the thing that get's ignored the most by those who claim that gun ownership for protection is valuable is suicide. Each year over 20,000 people die from self inflicted gunshots.

https://lawcenter.giffords.org/facts/gun-violence-statistics/

Anecdotes tell one story. That is the problem.

> What I "want" is for people to be happy in
> the country they live in. There are exmos on this
> board, US citizens, who do not agree with the laws
> of this country. What I want is for them to move
> to a country of their choosing where they will be
> happy, with the laws that they agree with (e.g.
> Canada, Australia, etc).

What I would like is for people who dislike dissent to move to a place where dissent is not allowed. You know, a place without democracy.

Plus, she is a really nice person :)

Isn't NZ a socialistic country?

No classifying socialism as the worst of political systems.

Well, NZ restricts access to private weaponry, implemented an aggressive lockdown to stop the transmission of COVID-19, and has a president who expresses condolences to the families of Muslims slaughtered by terrorists. . .

So yes, by American standards NZ is socialist.

Disappointed LW - Jacinda Ardern is PM, not President!

Certainly, though she has worked out how to do leadership of a small country. That's not a slur, just a recognition that NZ would be a damn sight easier to run than the US...

Right on both scores!

tumwater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Isn't NZ a socialistic country?
>
> No classifying socialism as the worst of political
> systems.

You need to learn the difference between Communism, Socialism, Democratic Socialism, Social Democracy, and Capitalism. So many Americans hear "Social Democracy" or "Democratic Socialism" and get images of Marxist revolutionaries like Stalin, Mao, and Castro. Most of us who live under a social democracy laugh when Americans draw those types of comparisons (BTW - I am American but have lived in Scandinavia for a decade now. I wouldn't trade the system I live under for anything else).

Again, that is the new American religion. The United States is capitalist (good) and everyone else is socialist (bad). China is communist, despite its unparalleled and in many ways appalling market freedom; Sweden is being torn apart by Muslims, who are at least as bad as socialists; and Putin is a good guy.

It used to be that to harbor such beliefs one had to wear a tinfoil hat, but now there is a great industry of media sites that will provide the gospel in either its American or, sotto voce, Russian forms.

It's a pity you are so happy in Denmark, alsd, for that indicates that the virus of cultural Marxism has afflicted your mind and corroded your soul. One could hope for a return to health but empirical evidence indicates that the odds of recovery for Americans in your condition are slim.

All I can say is congratulations on being an Exmo!

But seriously is this lady going to play my country is better than your country with a population of 4.8 million people and a crime rate that is probably zero except for sheep robbers?

MormonMartinLuther Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All I can say is congratulations on being an Exmo!
>
>
> But seriously is this lady going to play my
> country is better than your country with a
> population of 4.8 million people and a crime rate
> that is probably zero except for sheep robbers?

I read the linked article and failed to see anywhere that Jacinda was saying her country was better than another. She was simply reporting the facts and the facts are that NZ has almost crushed the virus.
My country of Australia is doing pretty well too..a fact, not a competition.

Our dear leader does it all the time. It's all about ratings.

MormonMartinLuther Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All I can say is congratulations on being an Exmo!
>
>
> But seriously is this lady going to play my
> country is better than your country with a
> population of 4.8 million people and a crime rate
> that is probably zero except for sheep robbers?

New Zealand is famous for its biker gangs and the Māori have a lot of the same social issues that Native Americans have. Watch "Once Were Warriors", it's fiction but it goes into this and is written by a Māori.

New Zealand cities are also falling apart socially like most of the western world - Ardern and Co. have helped speed up that process.

Be careful caffeind, you might be banned. Like youtube that is censoring contrary views.

You are threatening people's faith.

Few people can grasp the concept that there are differences in populations. Wyoming is not New York, and neither is New Zealand. Perhaps we should hire NZ to come over and work their magic in the Bronx.

The key to this whole virus thing is to twist things to fit your beliefs.

> Few people can grasp the concept that there are
> differences in populations. Wyoming is not New
> York, and neither is New Zealand.

No one, literally no one disagrees with that. So your asserting that people do is just another straw man.

Sorry. Wrong place.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2020 10:10AM by Soft Machine.

The censoring of youtube has kind of made me a little mad. I watch professional coaches that help people escape and heal from narcissm on there and its been affecting even what they put out there. Censoring videos that are helping people heal is not cool. Very not cool.

U.S. population density per square mile 92.9. UK population density per square mile 256.

I see that this thread has brought out the radical extremist right wing terrorists and their lies.

Weed tells the truth dave. Woodstock forever.

"An Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research poll finds that only about half of Americans would get a COVID-19 vaccine if it became available. About 20% said they'd refuse it outright and 31% weren't sure."

It is ridiculous to compare a country of three million surrounded by hundreds of miles of ocean with most of the rest.

Fox Rabbit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is ridiculous to compare a country of three
> million surrounded by hundreds of miles of ocean
> with most of the rest.

This is why America is #1 in Corona Virus deaths, Americans think they're so superior to other countries they can't possibly learn anything from any other (far more successful) countries.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fox Rabbit Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It is ridiculous to compare a country of three
> > million surrounded by hundreds of miles of
> ocean
> > with most of the rest.
>
> This is why America is #1 in Corona Virus deaths,
> Americans think they're so superior to other
> countries they can't possibly learn anything from
> any other (far more successful) countries.

I never said anything about other countries. All I said was that NZ is not an appropriate model for the USA.

How would you describe NZ except as an "other country?"

Fox Rabbit Wrote:
>
> I never said anything about other countries. All I
> said was that NZ is not an appropriate model for
> the USA.

Why not? Because it's successful and the richest country in the world is an abject failure?
Like an abject failure has nothing to learn from any totally successful country if they're a smaller than the losers?

Too bad Kate Smith isn't around to sing your new theme song.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fox Rabbit Wrote:
> >
> > I never said anything about other countries. All
> I
> > said was that NZ is not an appropriate model
> for
> > the USA.
>
> Why not? Because it's successful and the richest
> country in the world is an abject failure?
> Like an abject failure has nothing to learn from
> any totally successful country if they're a
> smaller than the losers?

I always love when people say stuff like "you can't compare that country to the United States". They overlook the fact that the United States is the wealthiest country in the world, awash with an abundance of resources that would make almost every other country on earth blush with embarrassment. The United States has the strongest military on earth, many of the best universities and with the brightest minds. It has one of the best climates for business innovation. The United States created the Internet, developed and perfected the airplane and air travel, sent humans to the moon (albeit with a lot of help from German rocket scientists...), and have sent probes to the far reaches of the solar system and even into interstellar space. Yet somehow the United States is unable to deal with or solve problems that so many other countries on earth can seemingly handle with ease. The United States has every single advantage in the world when it comes to handling problems, yet it seems lately the only thing the U.S. excels at is coming up with excuses as to why it can't deal with them.

The only parts of the USA that resemble New Zealand are Hawaii, maybe Guam and Puerto Rico, and some of the small islands. The continental USA is totally different.

Maybe Alaska, but that's stretching it.

Let me see:
* Geography - New Zealand has little in common with the USA geographically. No land borders. It has few roads, and if it has to, it can shut off some areas easily.
* Demography - A much lower population, with only four urban centers. Only Greater Auckland counts as a substantial urban area. Outside Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and Dunedin, the population is scattered about.
* Footfall - you only really go to NZ if you're going to NZ. It's not really somewhere to go somewhere else. There is no equivalent to JFK or LAX airport there, not even an SLC one.
* Immigration - New Zealand has a lot of immigrants from small Pacific Islands, and now from Muslim countries. There used to be a lot from Europe, but that is slowed down now. Key point here is that there aren't a lot of illegal immigrants trying to get into New Zealand, it's a hard place to reach in a boat unlike the USA. If they come in, they overstay their visa. They're not "wetbacks".
* Health - NZ's medical system is more like Canada's than the USA.
* Economy - NZ does not have overland freight from neighboring countries. It imports and exports most goods, but by sea.

This and probably a hundred other reasons I haven't remembered.

Why do you repeat what others have already said several times in this thread? And why do you focus narrowly on NZ when alsd was talking about the world in general, including countries that are much more comparable to the United States?

Because s/he was talking about NZ. You want to know why NZ is a stupid comparison? I'll tell you why. Both are rich countries but that means not much. You might as well compare Monaco with Sweden, or Iceland with India.

The USA is more like South Korea, Japan or Taiwan (maybe, but no real land border. I'm not counting the DMZ as one). Maybe the continental European countries - France, Germany, Russia, Poland, or God forbid, Spain and Italy.

Even the UK or Canada are better fits than NZ, maybe even Mexico (even if it is a lot poorer).

No, he was talking about the whole world when you were stuck on NZ. He thus said:

"I always love when people say stuff like "you can't compare that country to the United States". They overlook the fact that the United States is the wealthiest country in the world, awash with an abundance of resources that would make almost every other country on earth blush with embarrassment. . . Yet somehow the United States is unable to deal with or solve problems that so many other countries on earth can seemingly handle with ease."

NZ doesn't even show up in that passage. Your point is valid, but it's not relevant to alsd and has anyway already been made several times in this thread.

You could start an argument in an empty room...

Isolated island in the southern Pacific the size of California with a population of 6 million

Yes, others have made the same point several times.

But it is a good one. It would definitely be better to compare the American outcome with those of densely populated countries with lots of connections to China--countries like Taiwan, South Korea and, well, China, all of whom have done vastly better than the United States.

So there's that.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, others have made the same point several
> times.
>
> But it is a good one. It would definitely be
> better to compare the American outcome with those
> of densely populated countries with lots of
> connections to China--countries like Taiwan, South
> Korea and, well, China, all of whom have done
> vastly better than the United States.
>
> So there's that.

Right, and Taiwan, which did better than NZ, Kiwis are quick to point out. NZ changed tack when they saw Taiwans success, back in February.
They lifted the drawbridge, tested. Tracked and isolated infected.
IOW, they did the opposite of Arrogant Americans who figured Jesus was on their side.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2020 10:26PM by schrodingerscat.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, others have made the same point several
> times.
>
> But it is a good one. It would definitely be
> better to compare the American outcome with those
> of densely populated countries with lots of
> connections to China--countries like Taiwan, South
> Korea and, well, China, all of whom have done
> vastly better than the United States.
>
> So there's that.

Taiwan and South Korea are much better comparisons.

As for China, don't believe a word that comes out of it. There is good evidence that they are faking statistics or misreporting them.

xxMo0 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Isolated island in the southern Pacific the size
> of California with a population of 6 million

It's well under 5 million.

Pretty sure idaho has new zealand beat. We have been doing really good .

By what standard ?

Fewest deaths standard.

See below...

NZ deaths / 1 million population = 4
ID deaths / 1 million population = 46
source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

In a sense I guess Idaho has New Zealand beat. Just not in a good way.

The number was lower the last i got the stats. There was like 2 deaths. There must have been a big spike. Interesting. Oh well. Still ready. We will outlast this thing overall i'm pretty sure. No military or clunky weapons are going to win this war thats for sure.

I really thought idaho was doing better than that. Even though i have been using a mask and using hand sanitizer every day i have seen a ton of people not taking this seriously at all. I can't control people though. I can't get worked up about what others do.

It's true NZ as an isolated island has advantages over the US and most other nations.

However, don't forget, even in NZ, people live in large cities. Even Australia, which is massive, and only has 26 million people, has most of its population in large cities.

Success against the virus has not been due to population density alone - I think the key ingredients have been:

- early closure of borders
- rigorous contact detection and isolation
- compliance with social distancing directions

Of these, I think contact tracking is the most important. Every case is thoroughly investigated, using systems already established as part of pandemic readiness, so that all recent contacts deemed 'close' are put into monitored self-isolation.

This is how to get the Ro number down.

Here in Oz, people have been very compliant with social isolation requests and are only now being given more freedoms, as the number of new daily cases is almost negligible. Far from worrying about loss of liberty, a huge majority are thoroughly in favour of the approach to date.

It's not too late for some of these lessons to be adopted elsewhere in the world. This pandemic is still in its very early stages. The sooner testing and contact tracing can be brought in, the better. Large gatherings should be outlawed until the growth rate is much lower.