If we threw out lying would any religions survive ?

   

You most assuredly would.

This is an interesting question.

I think it would depend on the definition of superstition, because many of the older religions (in an attempt to explain the unexplainable) invented stories to explain reality, but (depending on the culture involved) were aware, or at least semi-aware, that the explanations were knowingly substitutes for what were, in fact, realities. (Life and death, weather events and patterns, etc. Easy example: the ancient use of honey as a wound dressing to reduce subsequent death from injuries or war. Externally-applied honey actually does work to reduce infection, but different groups of peoples may have invented stories about spirits or something to explain what was then unexplainable.)

I, personally, do not think Judaism depends on superstition--instead, Judaism primarily depends on conscious, connected, peoplehood.

Which is not to say that there is no superstition in Judaism. (If you ever see a simple outline of a hand, often in the color blue, this is often used as an amulet in certain global Jewish communities, but belief in this amulet is not a central teaching or part of Judaism as a whole--it is more like a cultural artifact of a particular sub-set of Jews who share a common history.)

Even in the foundational stories of the Bible (Adam and Eve, etc.), these are mostly understood as symbolic of deeper and different natural phenomena which are a universal part of all human lives: good and evil, etc.

A very interesting question which I will be thinking about.

Thank you!

[EDITED TO ADD: In direct answer to your question, I think Judaism would survive.]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2020 08:43PM by Tevai.

I don't know. Having two sets of plates for fleishich and milchich (I hope I didn't botch the spelling too badly) and programming elevators to run continuously and stop at every floor on Saturday because God disapproves of pushing elevator buttons from Friday night until Saturday night, that kind of strikes me as a superstition. Not that there aren't a lot of Jewish people who have moved beyond that, but still....

I do have some new appliances, and the owner's manual still discusses the Sabbath settings. This still exists.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't know. Having two sets of plates for
> fleishich and milchich (I hope I didn't botch the
> spelling too badly) and programming elevators to
> run continuously and stop at every floor on
> Saturday because God disapproves of pushing
> elevator buttons from Friday night until Saturday
> night, that kind of strikes me as a superstition.
> Not that there aren't a lot of Jewish people who
> have moved beyond that, but still....
>
> I do have some new appliances, and the owner's
> manual still discusses the Sabbath settings. This
> still exists.

Oh, of course these practices still exist--but they're not superstitions, they are direct rules (albeit subject to interpretation, not only by historical sages/learned persons/experts, but also by each person who makes these decisions, one by one, for him/herself).

It is not the elevator buttons that count, it is "making fire." There is a prohibition against "making fire" (lots of sub-interpretations here, depending on all kinds of possibilities) on Shabbat and some specific other Jewish holidays. Electricity has been interpreted as a form of fire, and (absent a life-endangering situation, when all laws of observance instantly cease until the emergency is over) an observant Jew cannot "make fire" on Shabbat (or some of the other holidays), but that observant Jew can USE fire that has already (past tense) been created. It is the same thing as sticking the stew pot over the pilot light on the stove: you can keep the contents hot or warm, but once Shabbat (etc.) begins, you don't have to "make" fire to do it.

A superstition is a BELIEF. The rules of kashrut, etc. (whether a given person adheres to them or not), are RULES, definitely not beliefs. If I have to use a Shabbat elevator on Shabbat, I am not "believing" that what I am stepping into is an elevator, it IS an elevator. Period. Whether I choose to use it or not is another thing, but its existence is totally, three-dimensionally, REAL, regardless of any beliefs I may, or may not, have.

Not eating meat and milk at the same meal is following the biblical RULE [which is interpreted in somewhat different ways by different Jewish groups] which which says: "it is prohibited to cook [an animal] in its mother's milk."

Every Jew decides for him/herself whether they are going to follow this rule, but the rule itself, and the meat, and the milk, are definitely not "beliefs," they actually exist, as a rule, a piece of meat, and a given quantity of milk.

So far as your appliance instruction book goes: Mine are frequently written in English, Spanish, and two or three Asian languages. I just use the English-language instructions, and I may skim over the Spanish instructions to try to keep my Spanish up, and then I ignore the rest of the possible selections. Doesn't everyone automatically do something like this with appliance instructions?

Superstitions are BELIEFS, which is a whole lot different than what you are citing here, which are actual, often three-dimensional, facts and potential actions.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2020 09:39PM by Tevai.

Thanks for the clarification on "making fire". I was not aware of that. One time when I visited NYC, I ran into the elevator thing, and was pretty gobsmacked. Fortunately, I think it was only a six story building. :)

My grandfather was a train conductor, mostly to NYC, and he told me of Jewish passengers on Saturday who would put a bottle of water under their seat. Travel by rail was not permitted, but travel over water was, because the wind did the work. Traveling over water and rail simultaneously was apparently close enough, thought I don't know if there was rabbinical buy-in

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My grandfather was a train conductor, mostly to
> NYC, and he told me of Jewish passengers on
> Saturday who would put a bottle of water under
> their seat. Travel by rail was not permitted, but
> travel over water was, because the wind did the
> work.

What tricks "Our Crowd" will not invent to dodge around their Talmud.

normdeplume Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > My grandfather was a train conductor, mostly to
> > NYC, and he told me of Jewish passengers on
> > Saturday who would put a bottle of water under
> > their seat. Travel by rail was not permitted,
> but
> > travel over water was, because the wind did the
> > work.
>
> What tricks "Our Crowd" will not invent to dodge
> around their Talmud.

First of all: I have never heard of his prohibition on traveling by rail before--nor this practical way to be within Jewish law when travel by rail would be necessary. (Absent a life-threatening situation: when life is in danger, all laws of observance are instantly suspended until the danger is past.)

This is not "dodging around."

Observant Jews are not allowed to "carry" on Shabbat, so door keys are taken to a jeweler, a clasp is permanently welded to the key, and the key is "worn," as a pin, on Shabbat.

Often in Jewish homes, lights in hallways are left on during Shabbat (etc.) nights so people can go into the hallway and read after dark.

People go to restaurants and pre-pay their Shabbat order before Shabbat, so they do not have to touch money on Shabbat.

This is just normal Jewish life for observant Jews.

The intellectual skills necessary to figure out how to keep the law, and still do what you feel you must do, are the same skills that are used in, for example, law schools. It is the same thing.

I should have made it more clear that I don't know if the story from my grandfather was true, or exaggerated, or a one-off, or simply urban legend. I was about 5, and thought it was pretty funny.

I wonder if rules get constitutional protection? If there is no belief involved—

It depends how broadly one defines superstition. Some people include all religion as superstition, I don't.

It is an unfashionable view but I think some aspects of religion are positive. Much of our finest art, music, literature and architecture is religious in origin, no matter where we are in the world. I also admire the charitable aspects. But the other side, of course, is control especially in the bedroom.

BoJ mentions Judaism above. I must admit I take against strict Judaism. I have nothing against its practitioners, I just find the whole thing too complex for my liking. I couldn't live like that. And the ultra-orthodox make it even more complex and bring in hair splitting rules and exceptions. I'm not even sure how the milk and meat thing (I'm not going to try and spell the Yiddish) is supposed to relate to the Torah - it says nothing like that in there. It says something about cooking a lamb or kid in its mother's milk. How that relates to chicken, I think, is pure superstition. No offense to Jewish board posters... I admire many things about Judaism but the extreme legalism is not one.

A fourth name in 24 hours??

I though the name G Salviati at least showed a little erudition. :)

Tru dat.

No one is suggesting you ought to become a Jew.

Judaism is obviously not in sync with who you are.

That is fine.

For me, it took me forty years to figure out "how" to become a Jew. When I was growing up (among many Jewish students in my various schools), the Holocaust was still within the living memories of countless people (Jews and non-Jews alike). The losses were still felt acutely, because the victims who never came back were parents, siblings, cousins, grandparents, best friends, etc. (A few days ago I mentioned the twin brothers I went to junior high school with, and their younger sister, who was lost, and presumably murdered, in the Holocaust.)

I didn't know a person COULD become a Jew (I grew up thinking everyone had to be born a Jew) until I was in high school, when I read a novel at my maternal grandparents' house which was about the stereotypical non-Jewish American female and the stereotypical American Jewish male, and how their apparently star-crossed relationship was [initially] felt to be doomed because she had not been born a Jew.

The book resolved with her conversion to Judaism, and for me--as I read how it happened in the novel--that was one of the most intense moments of my life when I realized that it WAS possible to become a Jew if you had not been born one.

So I came up with this GREAT IDEA [I thought]: If I fall in love with a Jew, and if he falls in love with me, and then we get married (like in the novel), I will HAVE to be allowed to become a Jew!

I was around tenth grade at the time I came up with this, what I thought back then was a STUPENDOUS idea! I didn't know that a good percentage of non-Jewish females in the United States were coming up with this very same idea, and I also did not realize how protective Jewish parents (particularly Jewish mothers) were when it came to the idea of their kids marrying non-Jews. [Because of the Holocaust, and because of the losses which were extremely close and personal to those parents.]

A few decades later Jewish families had relaxed enough for conversion-to-Judaism programs to exist (either one-on-one with a usually local rabbi, or an actual educational/Jewishly-legal program given at a Jewish institution like a synagogue or Jewish university), and one day I learned (from a passing reference on a local classical radio station) where to go (I thought: I still wasn't sure this was possible). I went up to the U.J. (University of Judaism; now: American Jewish University) and signed up for their "Introduction to Judaism" program--and I didn't tell ANYONE I was married because I was petrified they would kick me out (because my conversion would create an intermarriage).

A few months later, and according to Jewish law, I became a Jew.

Everyone in our conversion class (including one ex-Mormon woman) had a compelling story to tell of how, and how long, it took before they found the U.J. "Intro" program--and for most of us, our stories began: "When I was in elementary school...."

It took, literally, several decades of living my life to make it happen, but for me, I was, at last, finally "home."



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2020 10:31PM by Tevai.