So, I never put much stock into the claims that there are Mormon spies online who report about apostasy behavior to the main church body. It always sounded paranoid to me. Like claims that the government spies on every individual person's internet history. What? Watching you post Keanu Reeves memes and how much foot p0rn you look at? You're not that interesting, Jerry.

Anyway, are there Mormons who report apostasy behavior? Is that a thing they do? I never did, as a Mormon.

I post occasionally about the flaws in Mormon history elsewhere. And I used to get occasional messages from a friend TBM. I haven't heard from them in months and sent them a recent message with some creative projects I am doing lately. They still haven't responded although the message was read. I just...I get paranoid about what other people know, especially when I'm trying to hide my exmo status from family and friends. It's not a conversation I want to have and would ruin my relationships.

Yes, there are church members who report back to the COB and also members who tattle on family members, neighbors, etc. who post here. There are people on this board who have either had to change their screen name (sometimes on multiple occasions,) or stop posting altogether due to TBMs ratting them out, or otherwise making life difficult to them.

The 11th article of faith is apparently meaningless to the tattlers -- “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2020 08:57AM by summer.

LDS worshippers don't worry with the articles of faith. They don't know what half of them mean. They think they are for kids. Plus, IF lds followed the particle of faith, they would truly learn what they mean and what they need, and follow the dictates of their conscience...

The OP is wondering about official COB lurkers who monitor this (and other) sites. Any evidence of such? Are the people you mention, Summer, victims of self-appointed karens or victims of overt Church action? How close are you to any of these people?


Of course, we're dealing with anecdotal evidence, which we usually regard with a jaundiced eye. But accumulate enough such anecdotes, and it develops some weight.

For official COB activity, see the posts below. For self-appointed Karens, you have to keep a sharp eye on who drops off suddenly after stating that their relatives, etc. are unhappy with their postings. Or watch writing styles/background stories. You've been here long enough, I'm sure that you've seen it.

I know 3 who were assigned at the stake level who did just that; monitor web sites and discussion boards with the church objective to report accounts that are untrue and hurtful to the church.

Two were assigned to visit my home to home teach my folks. They freely discussed their assigned duties. What bothered me then was their rational. "If members have nothing to hide, then it shouldn't bother them if the church is checking up on their web surfing."

One thing that can flag the attention of the church's assigned task force is the quoted information from church publications. Remember the media storm about the bishop's handbook policy regarding children of gay parents?

You can bet your bottom dollar that the church went after the source that leaked the change to the baptismal policy.

Last week someone dug a 4 year old thread that I started about church policy concerning visual aids in sacrament meetings.

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1794428


If you have the time, please watch "The Firm". There are a lot of similarities between the law firm's internal organization and the church. The church is NOT a benevolent organization run by jolly men.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2020 10:59AM by messygoop.

Does that mean my internet search for 'Second Anointing 2: The Bishop, the Blond, and the Redhead' will get me in trouble?

Oooooh, I hope so!!

P.S. Just to prove the conspiracy theory is true, my my anti-spam code for this post was "JFK--"...

Your membership is not being strengthened enough.

1960's we had Ezra Taft Benson from the Twelve and Earnie the Attorney - the head guy at BYU running a spy ring among the students. Goal was to catch and get rid of those who did not fully support the school and would break the rules.

The names may change, the behavior does not.

They are too savvy not to look for groups like us. We are free focus groups for their business.

Exactly. I'd bet the there are multiple levels here:

1) Officious members who report locals to local authorities;

2) The Strengthening the Members Committee or other agencies that follow a very small number of suspect members; and

3) One or more public relations people or groups who scan the anti sites for information--in short, your free focus groups--because the general themes are important information for the church.

We have concrete evidence for the first and second categories but only indirect (but in my view compelling) evidence for the third in the way the church sometimes reacts very quickly to topics that appear on the boards. Why wouldn't they avail themselves of the valuable insights we offer even if 99.99% of us are individually unimportant to them?

^^^ this ^^^

Exactly.

What business wouldn't kill to find out why they lose customers so they can correct and implement new practices.

Yep, on the levels

the do monitor us and adapt accordingly. Why the sudden change in policy to allow for temple sealing immediately after a civil wedding? We'd been beating them up on that one for years.

sd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

“They do monitor us and adapt accordingly. Why the sudden change in policy to allow for temple sealing immediately after a civil wedding? We'd been beating them up on that one for years.”

==What was the policy before? When did it change? You think the change is related to a discussion on this board?

I’m a nevermo. I don’t know what you are talking about and that is why I ask.

~~~~iceman9090

The policy used to be that if you were married outside of the temple, you had to wait one year before you could be sealed in the temple (unless you were married in a country that requires all weddings to be open to the public).

Last year the policy was changed to eliminate the one year wait. It is impossible to prove that the church changed it because of this board, but there have been discussions here for many years about the policy and how painful it is for family members who have to miss the wedding because they can't go to the temple.

There have been other topics discussed here where church policies were criticized, and where those policies were later changed.

We criticized the church for their policy on bishops interviewing minors alone, then they finally changed it to allow a parent to be present.

We had long suggested that they should shorten their meetings from 3 hours to 2 hours. Then they did it.

While it can't be proven that criticism from exmos influenced the changes, it is interesting how many changes occur after exmo internet sites talk about things.

True

Truer than anything I ever heard growing up in moremanism.

[|] Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

“Last year the policy was changed to eliminate the one year wait. It is impossible to prove that the church changed it because of this board, but there have been discussions here for many years about the policy and how painful it is for family members who have to miss the wedding because they can't go to the temple.”

==I understand. You have your limitations and so do all the members on this board.
It is unlikely that you would be able to enter their building and insert an emitter in their office or anything Mission Impossible style.

It would be unexpected if they just came here and told you (all the members here) that is the reason for the change.

They are aware of how people are dumping mormonism so I assume that their goal is to open their ears wide and listen to the complaints.
When they make the changes, you will be silenced. No more complainers.

“While it can't be proven that criticism from exmos influenced the changes, it is interesting how many changes occur after exmo internet sites talk about things.”

==It is logical to assume that they are listening to these boards.

I assume that their initial attitude was to ignore you, to tell people not to read anti-mormon material.
One of my sources says that they tell all members not to read anti-mormon material.
That did not work. So, now they are addressing the issue by possibly listening to you but that creates another problem: you guys notice that you are being listened to.

~~~~iceman9090

[|] Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The policy used to be that if you were married
> outside of the temple, you had to wait one year
> before you could be sealed in the temple (unless
> you were married in a country that requires all
> weddings to be open to the public).

This was not always the case, though. Back when there were only a handful of temples it was common for couples to marry wherever they lived and then be sealed in the temple when they were able to travel there. Three of my siblings did this when we lived on the East Coast in the 60s, before the Washington DC temple was built. But as the number of temples grew, the brethren decided there was no longer any excuse for getting married in the temple first, especially with how much they had been browbeating the faithful about temple attendance.

olderelder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

“But as the number of temples grew, the brethren decided there was no longer any excuse for getting married in the temple first, especially with how much they had been browbeating the faithful about temple attendance.”

==What does “browbeating the faithful about temple attendance” mean?

~~~~iceman9090

While I agree they do monitor us, I don't think we can take much credit for the policy changes. We're not the only ones complaining. I suspect they pay much more attention to what Mormon Royalty types say. Or what the attorneys say. Or what the accountants say.

I think our complaints go toward crafting their messages and figuring out better ways of defending themselves, and probably deciding which doctrines to stop preaching.

> I think our complaints go toward crafting their
> messages and figuring out better ways of defending
> themselves, and probably deciding which doctrines
> to stop preaching.

If that is correct, and I think it is, then we have considerable influence over the church and its doctrines.

The word on North Temple Street is that no one wants to be in charge of my file...

It's only rumor, but supposedly I'm not taken seriously!

Speak up a bit?

Because. . . you know.

Hm, this was not reassuring at all. Still have not gotten a reply from my TBM friend.

I don't know... I used to think it'd be the worst thing in the world to be found out by TBM family members. But I haven't talked to some of them in months, so, I can kinda do without them. My fear was that they'd treat my younger siblings like abuse victims needing to be rescued from the house where I live with them. But neither of them have actually been to church in months and they're kinda lax on attending those silly zoom meetings.

If it is suspected and that is why my TBM friend is suddenly quiet and distant, then I'll of course deny it. What are they going to do? Bring up RfM and this post and be like, "Is this you?" *looks out through the screen, deadpan* Nope. In fact, what is RfM? ...Recovery from Mormonism? Who would make such a site and why? Those poor, sinning losers. I have never seen or talked to any of them in my life.

Isn’t “TBM friend” an oxymoron? TBMs can’t even be friends with themselves. Natural man, you know. When you see the world as a problem, maybe you are the problem.

I suppose, yes. My lie has partially made me just as false as a TBM that lies to everyone including themselves. My inability to be truly honest with this person about who I really am definitely strips some of the layers of intimacy and vulnerability required by good, meaningful friendships. But if we're arguing semantics, then TBM friend is contextually referring to the Mormon definition, since they have now seen fit to not respond to any of my friendly messages without telling me why. But possibly based on the assumption that I am apostate.

It's been proven repeatedly for many years.

I know they did in the past. I have seen them on the incoming logs. I used to enjoy seeing what countries people came in from. The FAIR/FARM boys have also kept an eye because of how fast they mailed screaming about copyright.

"Tattle" characteristic is a signature of authoritarianism, regardless of form (online, in-person, etc). It is estimated 1 in 7 East Germans were occasional Stasi informants, otherwise at peak almost two percent of the population were regular Stasi. That the spy&tattle phenomenon exists at all, is but a telltale pattern. It isn't the actual disease. It's only the fin on the shark.

At the disease core is fear (vs. curiosity), and when fear is countered by attempting forceful control over others, why, that is the genesis of evil.

Not to worry, that it exists at all evidences their fear of us (and everything else)

I know for a fact that certain types will attempt to track you even down you where sleep if you let that info out. That's why I am a little more cautios these days than I used to be.

They don't understand boundaries and never respected boundaries on purpose in the first place. The people that I thought I could trust the most, (family), were actually trying to sabotage and mess with me and destroy me in every way the whole freaking time. So my brain does have to accept that they did not want the best for me at all. They wanted me to fail and end up dead or living under a bridge when all said and done.

But yes a lot types in the religion will try to track you down. It is no joke and not paranoia. I know at least one family member is trying to track me as we speak but I went total no contact so I could no longer see their attempts.

Adam the Adam Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know for a fact that certain types will attempt
> to track you even down you where sleep if you let
> that info out. That's why I am a little more
> cautios these days than I used to be.
>
> They don't understand boundaries and never
> respected boundaries on purpose in the first
> place. The people that I thought I could trust
> the most, (family), were actually trying to
> sabotage and mess with me and destroy me in every
> way the whole freaking time. So my brain does
> have to accept that they did not want the best for
> me at all. They wanted me to fail and end up dead
> or living under a bridge when all said and done.
>
> But yes a lot types in the religion will try to
> track you down. It is no joke and not paranoia.
> I know at least one family member is trying to
> track me as we speak but I went total no contact
> so I could no longer see their attempts.

They're all very much too real as former (fake) friends and brainwashed family members so be extremely prudent and carefully silent around these possible peeps.

They have a name to remember, call em "Flying Monkeys" type's straight outt'a OZ!

Adam the Adam Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

“I know for a fact that certain types will attempt to track you even down you where sleep if you let that info out. That's why I am a little more cautions these days than I used to be.”

==It’s like dating. When a girl breaks up with the guy, he gets upset, he feels hurt. He decides to blame his pain on the girl and now, the girl has a debt to pay.
In some cases, it escalates.

This video is about Jehova’s witnesses. @ 1:15 the guy says apostates and enemies of Jehova god. He basically says “I am not a disgusting terrible person. These are the things that Jehova god says. Call him and tell him that he is a disgusting terrible person. I’m an innocent nice guy. However, thank god that you will be destroyed. You will be dust. I am not going to rejoice when you are destroyed.”

@ 5:01 He says apostates that have joined the forces of evil, that have joined Satan.

It does not take much for people like this to label other people as friends of satan. It’s their way of saying that you are no longer a human being and we can do whatever we want to you.

Jehovahs Witnesses CANT STAND Critics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6siuKzie2c
By Telltale
Length = 11:58

~~~~iceman9090

Then ask for mercy...

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Then ask for mercy...

That's exactly what a bitch shouting little 4'9 Muppet might humor, tell me you didn't knit one of those?

I hurtfully lost my sister (no she's not dead) when my niece went to a youth Easter service years ago with me and had a blast.

They will cut you, cut you as deep as possible.

Damn it...

I knitted two of whatever they are ... but I meant well !!

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Damn it...
>
> I knitted two of whatever they are ... but I meant
> well !!

OIC, oujai doll manufacturing perhaps a bit of a creepy speciality hobby, but at least they're not coming out of just another China sweatshop.

Caterpillars! Those are creeping!

"Nobody expects the Mormon Inquisition!"

I used to have a blog with a Sitemeter widget. I'd send out a tweet when I wrote a new post. If the post was about Mormonism, the TSCC started lurking my blog. At one point I keeping a running tally of TSCC lurkers.

I'm sure their methods have improved, but it was pretty odd. The first person who visited had mediocre equipment. They were probably tasked with going through tweets that contained the word "Mormon." The next person had a better monitor and computer, and the next person's gear was better. Usually three different people looked at a post. I was a little weirded out by the person who lurked from a Blackwater domain.

I've participated on this site since 2007, and during that time we've all seen too much anecdotal evidence that the church monitors this site, and probably all the others that spread actually unwanted (by church leaders) information about the church.

I bet there is, but that's anecdotal evidence. Of course, there's no way to prove it unless we caught some. And yes, the government can see your search history. That's what the NSA is for!

When you see them in incoming site logs that IS evidence. You don't need the NSA, you only need to be able to read.

Too many people are leaving. Mormon Mccarthyism is probably being practiced around people who hold callings like bishops and other leaders/ ces instructors, etc. Church is probably keeping a shorter leash on those Dudes..

When I first started posting on RFM, I was somewhat concerned about who might be monitoring here and whether or not there might be some retaliation against me based on what I said. I was long past caring about what anyone in the church thought about me. I wrote enough to make it easy for anyone who knew my life stories to identify me by what I wrote. I just didn't want anyone trying to hunt me down and cut my throat open for talking publicly about "the first token of the Aarinic Priesthood and its accompanying name, sign, and PENALTY" (for example), when I mocked that god-forsaken ceremony and other bad things about Mormonism here on RFM.

But after you spend some time here, putting your thoughts in to words for others to read, you get over that. People from other religions that have dark and controlling secrets also, feel the same way and have the same fears. If you are a Muslim (for example), you might be afraid to speak out against that religion in some parts of the world where they might really kill you for doing that. But if you live in a free country, you have legal protections, regardless of whether or not there are Dantes out there who want to kill you. I decided that my desire to express my dis-satisfaction about that terrible ceremony was worth more to me than the affects it had on me to stay quiet about it. It's like facing a bully who forces you to give him your lunch money every day in school. At some point you have to face the bully and experience any kind of pain necessary to force him to respect you. I doubt that anyone from the church is going to exert physical violence against me. But regardless, I did cross the Rubicon and I am free of any kind of fear of retaliation from them now. They have no hold on me. Whatever you're afraid of about Morminism, you should write about it here, with anonymity to start.

Eventually, you'll be willing to say those same things to others whether strangers or friends, face to face and without trepidation or intimidation. I would be happy if given the opportunity, to go in to the church office building and tell the Prophet himself, that he is running an unsafe and unhealthy cult and that I particularly disapprove of the pre-1990 mormon temple blood oaths which I have renounced and of which I publicly disapprove of now. But if given that opportunity, I would make sure that a lot of people knew where I was going and where to start looking for me if I turned up missing. Any way I look at it, I am not afraid of them and I intend to do my part (using only legal means) to slow the spread of their cult in my society.

azsteve this message board has really helped me a couple of years ago when I found out the the lds church was false. I felt so alone most of my friends and family are lds. Anyway what I am trying to say is that this board saves a lot of tithing money and has opened my eyes to different point of views. I am glad to read from other exmormons how they were able to leave Mormonism. Writing down my temple name "Deborah" felt so forbidden and I was almost waiting on lightning to strike me after I posted my name online. My first cup of coffee felt forbidden too. Looking back my lds life was full of fair of loosing my eternal salvation if I sin or not follow the Mormon rules. I went to the temple after the blood oath was already gone but there was still the "give even you own life for the building up of the kingdom". I got my endowment a day before I got married and the temple felt really strange to me I was not prepared for the rituals in there.

Brigham Young University's Honor Code Problem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ee8Um_Ug7A

Years ago on this forum, Steve Benson wrote about catching someone in the act of tapping his phone lines.

FairMormon has destroyed my Mormon faith more than any other person or online website or book. Once again google "TBM spies online" and what comes up? FairMormon and once again FairMormon did more damage than good in my opinion.

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_What_is_the_Strengthening_Church_Members_Committee%3F

The Strengthening Church Members Committee has been described as a "clipping service" which kept track of public statements by Church members who openly criticized the Church in the media. Some have accused the committee of hunting down and exposing historians and intellectuals in order to subject them to Church discipline.

"Members who have questions concerning Church doctrine, policies, or procedures have been counseled to discuss those concerns confidentially with their local leaders. These leaders are deeply aware of their obligation to counsel members wisely in the spirit of love, in order to strengthen their faith in the Lord and in His great latter-day work."

Basically exmormon needs to be clipped and we all need to talk to our bishops lol :)

The good thing is the spies might learn what fools they have been made and do some investigation themselves.

I have not seen many untruths on this site but tscc is total untruthfulness.

In the early days and for about 15 years, if something objectionable such as a copyright infringement or unsubstantiated personal attack occurred, in particular against Farms or FairLDS folks, we would get a note or email in less than an hour. This site was being monitored in near real time. FARMS complained that all they heard online was "Recovery from Mormonism". I guess we drove them a bit more bonkers than they were already. The impact of people posting here has been significant.

With that as background (I hadn't known it), there is one case I have long thought may have been a church response to some things said here.

Around a decade ago several of the board regulars (including Kerry/Flattop/XYZ, Patti in Japan, KJA, Kau Kau for KauKaubeam and others) engaged in a few extensive discussions of the Japanese missions under SP Groberg and GA Kikuchi. Since I'd studied that topic beforehand, I took close notes of what was being said and participated a bit both on the board and via exchanges with some of the posters.

One poster provided a link to Groberg's Ph.D. dissertation, done of course at BYU. The subject of that document was Groberg's presidency of the Tokyo South Mission. I read the document more than once; it was essentially an explanation of what happened there, a surprisingly frank--even proud--description of a really destructive system. On this board we discussed that dissertation a bit, and then a few days later I went back to get a hard copy. But now online access was blocked, as it has been ever since.

Can I prove that it was the RfM discussion that resulted in the concealment of that dissertation? No. But the timing was suspicious. A document that had been freely available for 25 years receives critical attention here and is suddenly rendered unavailable. If I worked for the church and learned what Groberg's naively revelatory dissertation contained, I would assuredly have locked it away.

I'm tempted to think that is what happened.

Interesting. I wonder if it’s been archived on the way back machine at archive.org. Is there a dead link somewhere here to search with?

I'll find some.



ETA: Here are a couple of links. The latter one, to a Mormon website, has been de-activated.

https://www.worldcat.org/title/toward-a-synoptic-model-of-instructional-productivity/oclc/77904606

http://www.familyhist.org/meridianjapan/grobergthesis.htm

If you can locate the document online, please let us know.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2020 08:30PM by Lot's Wife.

Check this out:

https://web.archive.org/web/20070809035629/familyhist.org/meridianjapan/grobergthesis.htm

It’s an index to the doc’s sections. First couple sections seem to come up, as well as the last statistics (didn’t look at it all).

It’s the oldest snapshot of the familyhist page (some newer snapshots seem to be broken).

Usually w/archive.org I’d say relax, it’ll always be there, but the Morg does have some reach/influence in the world of technology, so if it’s of interest to you, you may want to quickly snag a copy of each section.

I will do that, Gordon. Thank you VERY much!

Thanks, Eric K!

Lots of positive impact here over the years.

And the Morg is undoubtedly watching.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2020 08:22PM by Gordon B. Stinky.