Hi,

This is gonna seem depressing, so if you are not the type to show compassion, heads up. Also, I still believe in God. I am open to athiest responses, I just want people to know that when reading my post.

I came here because this last week I have felt so low. I am in so much emotional pain. I feel weak for holding onto a church I don't even know if I believe in anymore, but I feel so lost without it. I was born and raised in the church and was very faithful and border line unhealthily obedient, to a level of perfectionism.

I came across the CES letter and this website about 4 years ago(age 25). I just stopped going to church and really just ignored religion in general not knowing how to process it. However, I suffered from alcoholism and gambling addiction as a result, because I felt I had lost my identity and was worried that maybe, just maybe, it was all a lie. But, I just had that "testimony" that I would read something and still ask myself if I was being deceived by Satan.

Fast forward to several months ago, I was doing okay. I had a good job and was successful in it. I had a boyfriend who loved me and we were just having fun. When he said I love you and asked me to move in, I wouldn't know what to say. Then my Mormon upbringing and some family comments started to creep in. Am I okay with living with someone before marriage? What if I get married outside the temple and regret it? What if I learn the church is true later on and our marriage fails and I ruin his life and mine?

I started having anxiety and assumed the anxiety was God saying ya, you know what you should be doing, remember your patriarchal blessing and how you are to marry a faithful priesthood holder! So just in case it was God, I broke up with him because my gut told me to.(I also asked God for a sign and I opened the bible to a verse that confirmed it, yes, I know that will make a few of you laugh).I still argue with myself if that was my self projection, coincidence, God, or Satan.

SO, here I am...in tears, alone, feeling guilt, fear, and hopeless because I am afraid to take any huge steps in my life without the church; such as a serious relationship. I believe everything I feel is personal revelation from God (such as the need to break up with my boyfriend).

I feel weak because I read things like Joseph Smith's polyandry and I STILL justify it to myself. I just can't seem to let it go even though I don't know if I can be happy in it anymore anyways. Problem is, I am not happy out of it either.

This was not a religion to me, this was my life and my guide. I don't know what my purpose is anymore. More than anything, I am FILLED with fear of what to do next. What does God want me to do? How do I trust myself? The worst part of religion for me is that I no longer trust any emotion or thought. Cause your taught its Satan or God or lust, or desire to sin etc.

Reading your post from an observers view I think you traded a religion addiction for another. This happens a lot. Also you don’t give yourself credit for the changes you have made. You were groomed in a cult so all your thought and norms had to be given to you. No free thinking in the church.

Have you tried therapy. A good therapist can teach you why you chose another addiction and how to make positive changes. Many have a sliding scale.

Don’t go back to where your life is controlled and monitored by others. That is a miserable way to live.

You can’t expect to change a life time of cult patterns to disappear overnight. List every good thing that happened since you walked away.

But consider a therapist who is trained to guide you into a healthier and happier life.

Just my opinion been there done that.

You're far from alone on here. The Church was everything to me and when I realized that it wasn't true my world collapsed and it was absolutely terrifying. I was no longer grounded, I had to find new meaning in my life, and I had to rethink my stance on every issue.

On my own personal journey, I lost all faith in God at all. But even still, when my boyfriend said that he wouldn't want to get married without first living together it brought back a lot of the teachings I'd grown up with. It felt scary and wrong. In the end I agreed to it because I didn't want to lose him just because we'd been brought up with different values and my hesitations were more instinct than morals. I'm actually glad now that I did.

If you genuinely believe that living together would have been sinful or against God's will, then maybe you made the right decision for you. It's natural for your beliefs and values to change over time as distance yourself from mormonism and form new ideas about the world and about God. But I don't think that actively going against your current beliefs will make you happy.

I am one of RfM's nevermos, but I do have a suggestion that might help:

It has been my long-time opinion (going back to my beginnings here on RfM a lot of years ago, when I wandered in here as the result of a random Google search), that those who were raised as ultra-Orthodox Jews, and those who were raised as True Believing Mormons, have a number of fundamental commonalities.

Both cultures depend on top-down organizations, both require a considerable amount of obedience and willfully blind faith in order to meet the considerable requirements of daily life, and both are reflexively adverse to outside viewpoints.

If you go to YouTube and search for "leaving ultra-Orthodox Judaism," you will find many videos, and much learned and experienced wisdom, about the challenges you are facing now....so much so that, if you lived in the New York City area, I would recommend that you visit Footsteps (an organization devoted to helping those who have left ultra-Orthodox Judaism) because--regardless of the considerable belief and cultural differences between ultra-Orthodox Judaism and Mormonism--the practical means of overcoming those challenges can be quite similar.

I think that you seeing some of those videos can give you both practical tips which may well be useful to you, and also the inner knowledge that the process you are going through now IS do-able (step by step), and that a new, and much more satisfying, life is waiting for you to arrive, once you get to that part of the process.

I wish you the very best.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2020 11:27AM by Tevai.

I think a lot of us have experienced what you are going through. I was older than you when it hit me.

The church has dominated every aspect of your life and how you are supposed to think about everything. All that repetition and fear mongering is ingrained in your brain, because your brain has not incorporated anything else about how to live.

It feels like the church was our parachute and when the strings were cut (usually through studying) we feel like we are free falling. All the memes that were ingrained in us start going off.

First of all, let me point out that you are just as capable of deciding what you would like God to be like as the Mormon church. They don't know any more than anyone else regardless of how they want you to think they do. You can get comfort realizing that the god you love is guiding you and wants you to live life to the fullest.

The fear and guilt lasts for quite a while for many of us. Our brains go on autopilot repeating over and over all it has heard because it is easiest. It is hard to develop new views. It is hard to stop and analyze why you are responding the way are about everything.

As an older person now, the things I regret most are the opportunities I didn't explore because Mormonism kept me afraid. I patterned my life for Mormonism, not for myself until I was 40.

Sometimes it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. You get one life. You are lucky to be taking charge and going through this early. I suggest you take some time to explore some things that interest you, like hobbies, nature, music, volunteering, or work. Invest in being selfish for a time. The ideal situation is to be able to make yourself happy and not depend on someone else for happiness. Then you can be with someone because you want to and not because you have to.

Be aware the pandemic is behind a lot of general depression too. Be kind to yourself.

I don't have a lot of advice but know others went through what you are describing. Keep studying and know your brain will eventually stop spewing Mormon memes about everything. I believe you will be fine. Someday you will look back at this time and be glad you took the road leading to your own self fulfillment and not the one being a drone for the church.

One of my favorite quotes: "In the midst of winter, I learned, there was, within me, an invincible summer."
Albert Camus

After 42 years of believing that I was one sin away from pure evilness, I said, "ENOUGH!" Deep down, I'm a good person and I always will be a good person.

The church didn't give it to me and it can't take it away.

I am.

You are.

Trust yourself. Make your own decisions.

Read what you want. Think what you want. Do what you want. You are okay right now--even anxious or depressed.

You are not a collection of problems to be solved.

I've been listening to a LOT of Eckhart Tolle videos on YouTube. Ha ha. I wish you the same.

Peace to you on your journey.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2020 12:32AM by Dorothy.

Great quote. I wanted more...

"My dear, in the midst of hate, I found there was, within me, an invincible love.
In the midst of tears, I found there was, within me, an invincible smile.
In the midst of chaos, I found there was, within me, an invincible calm.
I realized, through it all, that…
In the midst of winter, I found there was, within me, an invincible summer.
And that makes me happy.
For it says that no matter how hard the world pushes against me,
within me, there’s something stronger-
something better, pushing right back."
https://lazywmarie.com/in-the-midst-of-winter-an-albert-camus-poem/

It's hard to overcome a lifetime of intensive programming. The church burrows deep into your brain like some kind of slimy tropical parasite and then dares you to pull it out without destroying yourself in the process.

This was one of your earlier threads, the one regarding your patriarchal blessing:

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1837794

---

"I also asked God for a sign and I opened the bible to a verse that confirmed it"

Confirmation bias at work. You could have opened to literally any verse and your mind would have found a way to interpret it as a confirmation. That's why mormon indoctrination is so insidious.

Hi tmg,
I'm maybe one of the original fear, guilt and shame (FGS) Mormon escapees, out before it was cool to go and get your name removed.

You really are smack dab, right in the middle of a pandemic and that timing thing alone deserves at least some possible acknowledgment. The poser dagny above said it well, "Be aware the pandemic is behind a lot of general depression too. Be kind to yourself." So yeah go ahead and be sure to cut yourself a break.

My belief in God maybe changed a little bit after mormo-ism, I think what happened was that I took over control and gave up what the LDS once had taken control of. Wow, does that make any sense at all? I wasn't any longer gonna let some stupid Jo Smith (joseph's myth) country bumpkin dude mess me up any longer.
That's what probably became my purpose, stupid people were not controlling me anymore.

Gosh I hope this helps! Get your nutrition, this whole pandemic has us wanting in that area more than ever. Stay strong.

I was lucky in another way too, Bill Morgan was a guy that was an older man that became a lot like a real grandpa to me and I was wise-ing up fast. He went to a Church called Willow Creek with Jim Defner* and I have no sure memory any of those spellings are right. The only reason I'm mentioning all of this is because that's where it happened. I first let go of everything and anything LDS right there before it was cool to do such a thing. It hasn't been easy but it has been worth it.

I'll lift a prayer for you.

*maybe a link to some fantastic history, heh
https://www.worldcat.org/title/15-commitments-of-conscious-leadership-a-new-paradigm-for-sustainable-success/oclc/900828317



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2020 02:03AM by josephssmmyth.

Like Tevai, I am a nevermo. But I grew up in the Catholic church, which has its own control systems, and I've been hanging out on this board for many years.

Your personal identity was consumed by the Mormon church, and you are at the point where you are just trying to find yourself. Don't feel too badly about the alcohol and gambling -- it's entirely normal as you are trying to establish your own identity to lurch around a bit and make mistakes (most nevermos do this in their late teens to early or mid 20s, often in college.) Bear in mind that most mistakes are fixable.

Here's the thing -- you are a good person, with good intentions. When you are that way, you assume that everyone else has good intentions as well. This is what makes it so difficult to understand people who are willing to lie to you and con you for their own personal gain. You realize, of course, that I'm talking about Joseph Smith and his closest followers. JS was not a good man, and his closest followers were not good people. Just because JS said that God talked to him doesn't make it true.

I think it would help you to read a non-apologist biography of JS, perhaps something like, "No Man Knows My History" by Fawn Brodie. People here can give you other suggestions. Perhaps that would help you to have the scales fall from your eyes.

You might also benefit by reading, "The Sociopath Next Door" by Dr. Martha Stout. This would help you to better understand the mentality behind people who would lie to you without compunction. I'm not saying that JS was a sociopath, although he might have been (I think most people tend to go with pathological narcissist.) But again, you need to understand that there are a certain number of people in this world who do not have your best welfare at heart. And those people may have smiling, earnest, polished exteriors. They may even be church people.

One thing that I would strongly caution you against is in looking for "signs." Instead, please start to trust your own good common sense. In a partner, you want someone who is kind, thoughtful, reasonable, and responsible. You are perfectly capable of picking out a good person. Don't feel that you need guidance from some otherworldly source to do that. As you start to rely on your own reasoning, you will gain confidence in yourself, and start the hard work of building your identity.

You can decide for yourself when you are ready to be physically intimate in a close relationship. Some nevermos are virgins at marriage, some have sex with their fiances, and some have sex whenever they feel the time is right. All are valid options. It is necessary for you to be in close touch with your feelings so that your actions are in alignment with what would make you feel most comfortable, safe, and secure.

I think counseling would help you. Most insurances allow for a certain number of counseling sessions each year. Please consider doing this for yourself.

Post whenever you need to. We are here for you!

I empathize greatly with the process you're going through, in particular your thoughts of doubt, "Wait...what if I'm just being led away by Satan? Am I being too prideful?" I had the same worries even several months into my faith crisis. The only cure for that is doing enough research into the truth claims of the church where the hypocrisy, manipulation , and deceit of the church becomes too great to allow them the authority to command the truth anymore. Like, when you have that doubtful thought, another thought pops up, "Ehhhhh... Yeah but, the church leaders have said this, this, and this. If they lied about that, then they probably lied about how my relationship with God works."

I would recommend looking into mostly church resources or anti- and ex-Mormon information that actually quotes church leaders and official church websites. The church contradicts itself so much and cannot stand up to scrutiny and logic. So, let them hang themselves in your mind, Read through FAIR Mormon a few times. They'll throw everything at you to try to convince you and if you're seriously analyzing it, you'll either feel the defensive tone(if it's the truth, it should be easy to defend; why do you need to twist yourself in mental knots just to "get" it?) or you'll see that the different points they make from one moment to the next do not coexist peacefully.

I know for a fact that the LDS church is a cult and that their manipulation is self-serving and has nothing to do with improving the lives of the members. You have been programmed to believe that you need them through systems of reward and punishment and guilt and love bombing. You have been taught not to trust yourself and it's something they have taken from you, your ability to connect with your most real and personal friend: yourself.

I am atheist but I too had the desire to have faith in something and to keep my relationship with God. If you're having trouble knowing where to turn as far as religion, I'd recommend going to a site like Christianforums where they allow all different Christian sects to come together and connect as a community. They have different sections just for certain churches, they have community scripture study, and they have sections where you can simply chat about non-religious stuff. It was very valuable to me during my time trying to explore what I believe, to find comfort in others who were dedicated to faith. Research other religions if you find that Christianity doesn't feel right. There are a couple websites out there for ex-Mormon Christians providing support and help to other Mormons leaving the church and having faith crisis.

I strongly recommend you leave Mormonism completely behind. There is nothing healthy or helpful about the LDS system of controlling your every thought. If faith is important to you, you deserve to feel worthy of God's love without having to pay a fee.

I feel for you. A lot. What I identify in your raw post are several things.

First." . . .borderline unhealthily obedient." I can tell you need to drop the "borderline" out of that phrase. That was me too. In spades. It was an UNHEALTHY way to be raised, indoctrinated from youth---like we were. Some have the personality to stand that. I did not. You did not.

Second. The church " . . . was my life and my guide." OMG Yes. Me too. I came from an extreme TBM family in a 100% Mormon community and 97% at the time Mormon county. Mormonism was EVERYTHING.

When I realized that Mormonism was a lie, the knee jerk reaction to justify it was still there, and I mean still there as in deep deep deep.


Pavolov's dogs. That is what we were. You know Pavlov? Rang a bell every time he fed the dogs. Then the dog's started salivating every time he rang the bell. Even if he wasn't going to feed them.

All dog trainers know this. They use clickers not bells now. Give a dog a click along with a treat and they will to the trick for you. Pretty soon you only need the click to get the trick.

The Mormon church is still ringing your bell and clicking at you. You have been trained to respond as they wish. I was trained to respond that way. The knee jerk reaction that you were trained as a child to have is herculean.

What made the difference for me was to become very angry that they had done that to me. Don't worry about the doctrine that doesn't make sense. Take a good look at those smug arrogant old men who are clicking at you. Get really angry and tell them where they can shove their "clickers."



Do not pass up a beautiful relationship with real love for the hollow sound of Mormonism.

Keep coming here. There is love, understanding, and some damn good advice like the posts above.

It can always be worse. I recommend Todd Compton's "In Sacred Loneliness." Read about the Mormon women who came before you. If that book doesn't help a bit with your concerns about the church I don't know what will.

My polygamist sister reads it for comfort. She is a glutton for Mormonism.

I can't imagine anyone reading that book for comfort. It's one of the saddest books I've ever read (although it gives an interesting picture of early mormonism).

Right? I actually recommended it to her and then she told me she had read it many many times.

How very strange that is. . .

It is maturation I'm convinced. There is a semblance of it in communal living but there is an inherent dependence created and In Sacred Loneliness it shows through.

For someone looking for independence from Mormonism ISL is an eyeopener. For someone looking to become more dependent on Mormonism is a solace? I can't read about polygamy and find much comfort especially the fake kind Joseph Smith perpetrated on these victims.

CHEER UP
YOU ARE ON THE RIGHT PATH
STAND YOUR GROUND
WE ALL SUPPORT YOU

because fearful people are easy to control.
So yeah, you are not alone. We have all been there.

We were taught the universe is a very dangerous place; that we are perpetually unsafe.
And being "good students" we believed it. Learned it well.

But what is learned, may be unlearned.
We can become free of it.

Unlearning begins by first seeing.

We see clearly the assumptions we have been taught (and unknowingly accepted).
Then we start questioning these.
Then they start to fade.
And I start to realize that really, things are okay.
And I can rely on myself. And it is no sin to do so.
Else how is it we have been gifted with reason?

It's like panicking being chased down a dark alley, believing harm is about to come, then awakening and realizing it was only a dream.

So no, this is not a comforting answer, but rather a paper map.

> It's like panicking being chased down a dark
> alley, believing harm is about to come, then
> awakening and realizing it was only a dream.

We find there are no assailants. There never were.

Dr. No Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So no, this is not a comforting answer, but rather
> a paper map.

Just don't confuse it with the new territory post-Mormonism is.

The guilty feelings that you experience are a result of emotional and mental brainwashing and indoctrination by this cult. I know exactly what you mean. Those feelings are deeply entrenched.

This cult is "not true" to put it in mormonese. You will never find actual evidence to support it. There is none. The BOM is pure fabrication. It is all fraud. When you 2nd guess yourself, reread the CES letter.

As far as moving in with your BF...YOU SHOULD move in. Test him out. Later marriage is a huge risk. There is nothing wrong with it. He may be a great guy to marry someday...moving in with him, experiencing the day to day life experiences is the only way you will truly get to know him. Stay on birth control during this learning phase. My two cents.

Hi tmg, I can’t really add anything to the massive outpouring of empathy seen in this thread. Try to get that from Mormons. It’s proof that the flowers will bloom again.

Mormonism is the joke whose punchline packs a bigger punch than Mike Tyson. When it connects, you know it.

The average amount of time to “get over it” is 5 to 10 years. Sometimes shorter, sometimes never, but I was in that range.

You feel like you need to hold on to church but actually the danger is only within the church you feel you must embrace.

It's like being in a dream thinking you must fly or fall. No, all you need to do is know you are strong and you're not in any real or present danger.

trust Jesus OPie ~



you are now on the right track ~



that is what God wants ~



https://youtu.be/HMzZYkEGywI



remember OPie ~



Joseph's Myth is a big lie ~



never forget that ~

OP should listen to “God Only Knows” by Dolly Parton.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UFiyEFmIXvA

making life choices outside of religious pressure and family pressure is hard. I am in the same boat of having to make my own choices for myself constantly now. I used to just shut my brain off and let the the religion and parents and God do all the thinking for me. But you have no identity of your own when you do this.


I am quite certain now that God or mr. Jesus or Mr. Universe or even Buddha wants me to think for myself and make my own choices and not be a literal slave to family and religion as a whipping boy.

Lord knows that I wish dressing up like a baker and chanting like a monkey would solve all my life problems but I know that it will not.

Surrendering over your brain to someone or an organization never ends well. I know from experience.

I found life made more sense and that I made better decisions if I left the church and supernatural things out of it. And I felt better about myself after I stopped seeking approval from those who wouldn't or couldn't give it.

Jesus hung and died to save wayward churches, too. If the Mormon faith ever confesses every sin of which it is guilty, the church can obtain a remission of sins.

Frightful, yes.. But true.

8

Screen Name Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jesus hung and died to save wayward churches, too.
> If the Mormon faith ever confesses every sin of
> which it is guilty, the church can obtain a
> remission of sins.
>
> Frightful, yes.. But true.
>
> 8

It truly was a sad sad realization that Nelson, Romney, and even the LDS church is completely incapable of becoming transparent (in this lifetime) and not only can come clean, it won't, he won't and they won't. LOL, dumb me for thinking they might.

So now you know where "I Must!" Maybe came from.

Corporations are not people regardless of the law.

You've been given some rich guidance and encouragement. Let me just add an additional perspective.

Look around. Notice all the wonderful things that have happened and been done without mormonism.

Art, music, literature, public service, acts of incredible kindness. There is wonder and beauty and joy that do not depend on a one-size-fits-all mentality.

Consider people like Abraham Lincoln, Mahatma Gandhi, Jonas Salk, Dolly Parton, Carl Sagan, Martin Luther King, Bill Gates, Mother Theresa, Paul Newman, Thomas Jefferson. Did they need Mormonism's "fear and guilt" trip to accomplish their humanitarian contributions to the world?

Mormonism wants to take credit for goodness and happiness but it is responsible for plenty of unhappiness and evil masquerading as God's will.

What good has the Church done that didn't depend on the kindness and labor of its members? All that money - bazillions - but any good they accomplish is the by the sweat and blood and good will of its members.

Twinker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What good has the Church done that didn't depend
> on the kindness and labor of its members? All that
> money - bazillions - but any good they accomplish
> is the by the sweat and blood and good will of its
> members.
===============================

And one wonders why the TSCC dictum is "endure to the end."


Exploitation and inhumanity have many faces

Exploitation in humanity have many feces.

What a great way to look at it, Twinker!

When I was a kid we were not allowed to see Marilyn Monroe movies because she was, well . . .

I read recently in a biography of Ella Fitzgerald how Monroe boosted Fitzgeralds career. They were very close friends. The Mocambo would not book Ella because she was not glamorous enough. A black entertainer had to be really glamorous to make the cut and only two others had. Monroe told the club owner she would sit on the front row every night and bring her celebrity friends. And that is how Ella got a big boost to the 'fancy' clubs.

Contrast this with Mormonism at the same time banning people of color from the priesthood and from acceptance across the board. And never think for a second it was only about the priesthood. That was just the excuse.

Mormonism is not now and has never been nice. It serves a purpose only as a past that can teach you how not to be.

It isn't enough to reject Mormonism. Really opening your eyes to so many wonderful people who have never given Mormonism a second thought. You don't want to miss out on all the good stuff going on in this globe currently hosting 8 billion people.