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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 05:29PM

This week POtUS said Texas and Mississippi governors cancelling Covid restrictions 100% was "Neanderthal thinking".

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/mar/04/biden-mask-mandate-texas-neanderthal-thinking-greg-abbott

But recent discoveries indicate Neanderthals, one of our nearest cousins in the Hominid species, were also our cognitive equals and maybe even smarter than us. They had bigger brains than us.

https://www.sapiens.org/column/field-trips/neanderthal-brain/#:~:text=A%202018%20study%20used%20CT,than%20those%20of%20modern%20humans.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00445-x

Bernard Wood explores a claim that our nearest cousins were our cognitive equals — and that birds had a part to play in that.

he Smart Neanderthal: Bird Catching, Cave Art, and the Cognitive Revolution Clive Finlayson Oxford University Press (2019)

The stereotype of Neanderthals as uncreative and unintelligent is remarkably persistent. In The Smart Neanderthal, archaeologist Clive Finlayson challenges that view. His assessment is informed by archaeological evidence, including his own decades-long research on groups of Homo neanderthalensis that lived on and around the Rock of Gibraltar from 125,000 to just over 30,000 years ago. Intriguingly, birds form a significant part of his argument.

Finlayson, director of the Gibraltar Museum since 1991, takes aim at researchers who have interpreted the archaeological record of Neanderthals as suggesting that the species never attained the brain power of contemporary Homo sapiens. Sure, Neanderthals get marks for surviving at a time when the cold climate brought tundra conditions to most of Europe. But the conventional wisdom is that the modern humans who moved into Europe soon after leaving Africa some time in the past 50,000 to 70,000 years had already raised their cognitive game a notch or two, thus enabling them to prosper and eventually outwit their Neanderthal cousins.

Gibraltar lies at the southwestern edge of Neanderthals’ geographical range. Finlayson argues that discoveries his team has made at four main cave sites suggest that the species’ behavioural repertoire was more sophisticated than the popular caricature suggests. He says that the Neanderthals living there had access to, and took advantage of, a much wider range of resources than their northerly cousins, including rich avian biodiversity. And he posits that an archaeologist not familiar with animal behaviour would be unable to decipher the Gibraltar Neanderthals’ cognitive parity with modern humans.

When Neanderthals occupied the Gibraltar caves, sea levels were lower. The hominins shared their habitat with a much wider variety of animals, particularly birds, than is seen today. Fragile bird bones survive well in the relatively protected atmospheres of caves, and the fossils recovered sample 160 avian species. That covers 30% of the avian species known from Europe for the time, ranging from the pine grosbeak (Pinicola enucleator, a finch), to ducks, choughs, larks, gannets, eagles and vultures. Finlayson suggests that tool marks left on the bones indicate that some of the species on Gibraltar were processed for food or, more controversially, for their feathers. He reminds us that birds come in many shapes and sizes, with a variety of behaviours and responses to humans, which implies that their exploitation would have required sophisticated knowledge. But he goes further, arguing that this knowledge was comparable to that drawn on by modern birders.

Not all of Finlayson’s inferences (including this one) are logically sound, and The Smart Neanderthal would have benefited from some editorial ‘tough love’. His point about the neglect of avian evidence is well taken, however. So is his reflection that most of the humdrum things we do daily do not necessarily reflect our cognitive potential. His findings from Gibraltar — with those by anthropologist Dirk Hoffmann and his colleagues suggesting that Neanderthals decorated the walls of three caves in Spain — might have exposed a cognitively advanced side of our Neanderthal cousins.


But in the end they went extinct and we didn't, which might be what PotUS was talking about when he called something he sees as an existential threat, "Neanderthal thinking".

I wonder why they went extinct if they had bigger brains than us?

I read a book about the Neanderthals that theorized they went extinct about the same time we domesticated dogs. So it might have been our symbiotic relationship with domesticated wolves that helped us both thrive and adapt to change and out compete the Neanderthals who were apparently better friends with the birds than the wolves.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/150304-neanderthal-shipman-predmosti-wolf-dog-lionfish-jagger-pogo-ngbooktalk



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2021 05:34PM by schrodingerscat.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 05:35PM

Somebody posted that just a few minutes ago.

In fact, it was on precisely this topic: Biden's insult and an increasingly tendentious foray into pop science.

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2364763,2365327#msg-2365327

Oh yeah, that was you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2021 05:38PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 05:37PM

I wasn't talking to you.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 05:44PM

Well then, I'll just wait till you start a third thread on the same topic with the same quotation from the same source!

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 05:54PM

He needs to let us know to whom he is addressing each of his burnt offerings! I do not want to intrude on the personal space we are each allocated here on RfM.

Would you want someone whose unhallowed approach to your private section of RfM would spoil it for you? This is why I upgraded to the paid version of RfM so that I can have guards posted to escort the riff-raff from off my portion of the premises.

Oh! Maybe he's still using the free version of RfM! In which case, c'mon, that's on him! I'm sure he'll figure it out.



The day is young. He's got 11 threads on the first page. I bet he makes 15 today. I got a buck says he does!

Note: I've posted this on the free version of RfM, so that all may partake!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 06:08PM

> The day is young. He's got 11 threads on the
> first page. I bet he makes 15 today.

Well he's only used his opening post twice so far today, so there's more mileage available there if he wants to run up the score.


-----------------
> Note: I've posted this on the free version of RfM,
> so that all may partake!

I know, right?

I've been wanting to summon Ziller from the depths of Sheol to address this fascinating topic, but I guess he's in his private RfM talking to himself in peace.

Should we take up a collection to get S-Cat a priest hole of his very own?

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 05:50PM

What is the old presidential insult ?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 05:55PM

"Ike, no like!"

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Posted by: mikemitchell ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 06:17PM

What does this have to do with recovering from Mormonism? Does schrodingerscat have special priveledges to make countless off-topic posts?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 06:39PM

What does the evidence say?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 06:42PM

Evidence be damned. Full speed ahead!

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 06:45PM

I had a link to the YouTube version of the pie fight in "The Great Race" removed.

But The Cat ...

Well, to be fair, as I mentioned recently, he's had three removed. I saw no pattern as to their choices. Mine is not to question why, mine is but to go with wine.

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Posted by: Humberto ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 06:26PM

Topics related to evolution and science in general are important in recovery from a religion that includes in its doctrines young earth creationism.

It's not the subject matter, but the repetitive insistence on bastardizing the science that becomes problematic...

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Posted by: mikemitchell ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 06:32PM

I suppose. I've heard a Mormon say that the spirit in the bodies of hominids before Adam and Eve were not human, they had animal spirits.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 06:41PM

Science is great and a lot of our STEM posters introduce those topics regularly and helpfully. In OPie's case, it's the constant repetition, the refusal to learn the substance, and an arrogant rejection of anyone's attempt to question his assertions that are problematic.

The point of science and math (at least in the context of ex-Mormonism) is that those subjects teach logic and disciplined thinking. Referring to scientific subjects and disregarding the concrete thinking behind them defeats the purpose.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 06:42PM

I wish I had an animal spirit.

I'd pick one of the frugivorous primates; probably the Brown Howler...

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 06:59PM

Howler monkeys are awesome. If you've heard them in the evenings in the Amazon basin, when they all start to howl in unison the effect is eerily beautiful.

I remember once in the rainy season in the Peruvian tributaries just east of Iquitos disembarking from a boat at a little village. A handful of uniformed kids were paddling dug-out canoes back up the river to the landing, at which a slightly older kid had a baby Red Howler--no bigger than your hand--on a makeshift leash. When other people approached it, the creature puffed itself up, opened its mouth wide, and produced the cutest little howl in an attempt to frighten us. Once he'd put us in our place, though, he was more than willing to accept our stroking and scratching behind his ears.

We were six or eight in number and walked up a fairly steep slope some 25 feet to a flat clearing with a whitewashing church on one side of a big open soccer field that was more dirt and dust than grass. A relatively athletic researcher saw a few teenagers kicking a ball around and ran out to join them for half an hour. Soccer truly is the global sport.

So if you ever have occasion to visit the upper Amazon, do so in the rainy season. When it's dry, the region is overwhelmed with hungry insects of all sorts. In the wet season, by contrast, you can travel mainly by boat and don't get "bugged" much at all. It is much, much more pleasant.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 07:14PM

Since I have kin there ...

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 07:15PM

Not many in the rainy season.

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 06:42PM

mikemitchell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I suppose. I've heard a Mormon say that the spirit
> in the bodies of hominids before Adam and Eve were
> not human, they had animal spirits.


How in the hell does he know ?

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Posted by: mikemitchell ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 06:48PM

He doesn't. Like all Mormons who say they know.

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 07:49PM

They stole it from Chinese astrology.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 07:05PM

It was one of the earlier forms of apologetics. When it became clear that there was a ton of life in the world before 6,000 YA, LDS apologists started arguing that God created life through evolution. Then when everything was hunky dory, he independently stuck human souls in bodies that evolution had already produced. Thus Adam and Eve really were the first humans.

As Mike and Humberto explain, the theory still made a mockery of scripture. But at least it took some of the sting out of an evolutionary attack on Mormonism.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 08:13PM

kathleen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mikemitchell Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I suppose. I've heard a Mormon say that the
> spirit
> > in the bodies of hominids before Adam and Eve
> were
> > not human, they had animal spirits.
>
>
> How in the hell does he know ?

Humans are animals. How do you think we got 2% Neanderthal DNA in our genetic makeup when Neanderthals went extinct 40,000 years ago? When that was 36,000 years before the Bible puts Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.
Ive asked Mormons this question and the answer I mostly get is, "Gee we have no idea. But why is that important to our salvation?"
If you expect me to believe I need salvation because the first humans were Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden 6,000 years ago, I just can't believe that if humans were interbreeding 36,000 years prior to that with non-humans.
Interbreeding doesn't produce fertile offspring between different species. I believe the DNA evidence long before I believe any man made narrative.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2021 08:14PM by schrodingerscat.

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Posted by: mikemitchell ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 08:38PM

That Mormon pre-existence sure makes things complicated.

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Posted by: Humberto ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 06:57PM

D&C 77 clearly states that the earth is 6000 years old. Mormons like to prevaricate by claiming that it's really referring to the fall of Adam, not the actual age of the earth, hence the "animal spirits" claim. It's just further indication that they're making it up as they go along.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 06:58PM

Hahahaha! Making it up ahead of time did NOT work well for them!

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 09:41PM

Humberto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Topics related to evolution and science in general
> are important in recovery from a religion that
> includes in its doctrines young earth creationism.
>
>
> It's not the subject matter, but the repetitive
> insistence on bastardizing the science that
> becomes problematic...

Maybe it’s you who doesn’t get it?
I thought it was obvious.
But not to everybody I guess.
To each his own.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 09:54PM

Humberto knows the science a helluva lot better than you. Repeating your misunderstanding yet again is not going to persuade him or anyone else that you are correct.

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Posted by: Humberto ( )
Date: March 08, 2021 02:29PM

Look, I like a lot of your posts, if only because the ensuing dialogue often has interesting content. But if you're going to insist on being tediously repetitive, you're going to catch a lot of flack. Likewise, if you insist on getting the science wrong and on mixing it up with mystical musings you'll surely get substantial criticism and correction. But you know this already from experience, don't you? The question is, at what point will you be open to feedback, recognize your folly and modify your behavior?

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: March 08, 2021 02:52PM

Humberto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Look, I like a lot of your posts, if only because
> the ensuing dialogue often has interesting
> content.

Glad somebody here does.

> But if you're going to insist on being
> tediously repetitive, you're going to catch a lot
> of flack.

I'm used to it.

> Likewise, if you insist on getting the
> science wrong and on mixing it up with mystical
> musings you'll surely get substantial criticism
> and correction. But you know this already from
> experience, don't you?

I'm in good company with Sagan, who said,

“The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard, who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by 'God,' one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God.”

and Einstein who said, "I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind."

and Michio Kaku, who said, "So when Kaku asserts that the goal of string field theory is to “read the mind of God,” it’s important to remember he’s talking about Einstein’s God of Order. To “read the mind of God” would be to find that (one-inch) equation that explains everything in the cosmos. Bearing in mind the continual game of leapfrog going on between math and physics, and that the latest leap is physics' string theory, which requires a new type of math, Kaku mischievously suggests that the ultimate solution to the schism between physicists and mathematicians could be that God is a mathematician. And, he says, the mind of God — the explanation of Order — may turn out to be string field theory’s “cosmic music,” the resonating of strings through 11-dimensional hyperspace."

They all got it. So it doesn't bother me in the least when less well educate people, just don't get it.

https://bigthink.com/robby-berman/michio-kaku-believes-in-god-if-not-that-god

> The question is, at what
> point will you be open to feedback, recognize your
> folly and modify your behavior?

When I see evidence to the contrary, I change my opinion, not just because some internet rando jumps up and down screeching.

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Posted by: Humberto ( )
Date: March 09, 2021 12:36PM

You've been bombarded by evidence, going back years, provided by some very intelligent people (some of them with substantial formal training in physics) that you're routinly misinterpreting the science. You've been likewise inundated by evidence that your repetitive rants are unhelpful and irritating to many.

Is it that you don't see it, or is it that your last sentence above is a lie?

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 09:30PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2021 07:45AM by kathleen.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 07, 2021 10:53PM

> It's not the subject matter,
> but the repetitive insistence
> on bastardizing the science
> that becomes problematic...


To which The Cat responded:

> Maybe it’s you who doesn’t
> get it? I thought it was
> obvious. But not to everybody
> I guess. To each his own.


I think that "repetitive insistence" goes hand in hand with having 11 threads showing on the first page right now.

The next closest is Anybody, with four.

The bulk of RfM's traffic comes from Repeat Offenders. But The Cat has no difficulty casting aside our complaints about his recidivism by arguing that he's doing it for the new people. What would the new people do without his posts? Oh, sure, he occasionally sock-puppets his thanks for himself, but even that is skinny potatoes.

I have zero stats, but what are the odds that he could be scaring/pushing new people away?

Yes, yes, I could be doing the same thing ... Heck, we all could.

But who here believes this site DEPENDS on his participation in order to succeed? Or at least, who acts like it?

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: March 08, 2021 01:16PM

https://www.americanthinker.com/images/bucket/2021-03/227823_5_.jpg

Does that um..."cancel" out their being sexist brutes who club females and drag them into caves by their hair to mate?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 08, 2021 04:14PM

> sexist brutes who club females
> and drag them into caves by
> their hair to mate


Joke: Projecting much, Caff?


I've never liked that supposed scenario, mating by force.

How would it work, in the long run?

I see a difference between 'mating' and 'having a mate.'

Wouldn't your random caveman figure that out?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 08, 2021 04:37PM

Where'd I put that pie video?

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: March 08, 2021 11:12PM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Joke: Projecting much, Caff?

I always confuse projection with wish fulfillment.
>
>
> I've never liked that supposed scenario, mating by
> force.

It's Applied Natural Selection. What, you're not anti-science, are you? My authority: Alley Oop
>
> How would it work, in the long run?

Worked out fine for me. So far, I dominate the family gene pool. "He who dies with the most heirs, wins," as they say
>
> I see a difference between 'mating' and 'having a
> mate.'
>
> Wouldn't your random caveman figure that out?

You give us Neanderthals too much credit.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: March 08, 2021 10:35PM

I thought they sold car insurance.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: March 09, 2021 02:55AM


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