If the masks work, why the 6 feet of social distance? If the social distancing works, why the masks? If they both work, why the vaccine? if the vaccine works why do we still have to wear a mask and stay 6 feet apart?

does this confuse anyone else or is it just me?

Just you.

Well said Crispingpin.

They work "to an extent," that is why.

There is no guarantee with the mask. Just decreases the odds.

There is no guarantee with the social distancing. Just decreases the odds.

Virus transference as much as 20 feet inside a restaurant in Korea was confirmed as they can track the DNA or something like that. Forget the details.

The vaccine will stop you from dying or getting really sick but you can still get Covid 19 after being vaccinated. You can still spread it to others. This is why even after vaccine masking and distancing are necessary.

Erring on the side of caution is what we are doing. Fastest way for this to never end is to be selfish and not do that.

For a country that is used to free next day shipping of the cheapest goods, we are seeing who can be a team player and who is in it only for themselves.

“we are seeing who can be a team player and who is in it only for themselves.”

So true. If you want to know who among your friends are self centered, just check out COVID related social media posts.

One more time for the people in the back:

Masks don’t completely prevent infections, but they help.

Social distancing doesn’t completely prevent spreading the virus, but it helps.

Vaccines are never 100% effective, but in this case, they are extremely effective in preventing the most serious symptoms.

Bottom line: the more people wear masks, socially distance, and get vaccinated, the sooner we can get a bit closer to what we remember as “normal.”

There are still car accidents, even if people use turn signals.

There are still injuries and deaths, even if they wear seat belts.

Seat belts are still needed, even if the car has airbags.


See a pattern here? Just because none of them solve the entire problem doesn't mean they don't help.

But you knew that.

I wonder if she exercises her freedom to drive without wearing seatbelts?


Also, I've been wondering about the oppression we live under which makes it so hard to find a restaurant where they refuse to cave into health inspections! Aren't we all adults here?

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder if she exercises her freedom to drive
> without wearing seatbelts?
>
https://i2.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2021/03/Screen-Shot-2021-03-25-at-10.17.39-AM.png?w=982&ssl=1

I'm starting to really like wearing a mask for the following reasons:

1. No one can see me talking to myself because my mouth is covered by my mask.

2. I can make faces at people who annoy me and no one can tell because my mouth is covered.

3. My mask keeps my face warm when it is cold outside.

4. For the first time in my life I made it through an entire year without so much as a sniffle because with people wearing masks in stores, no one spread their germs and infected me.

Wearing a mask is the easiest and cheapest way we can keep covid from spreading. I don't know why people complain and won't comply.

As far as continuing to wear masks and social distance even though some have been vaccinated, until we are all vaccinated the virus can still spread and mutate.

What is really scary to me is the rapid rate at which new covid variants are occurring. One of the variants could possibly be resistant to the vaccine. Another reason for everyone to take all precautions, especially wearing masks.

I like your list.
It's perfect-

I'm blowing my bubble!

People continue to wear masks because nobody knows who has what or not (and they aren't telling).

heartbroken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is really scary to me is the rapid rate at
> which new covid variants are occurring. One of the
> variants could possibly be resistant to the
> vaccine. Another reason for everyone to take all
> precautions, especially wearing masks.

Very good point.

Also, as others say above, people who are vaccinated can still carry the virus and transmit it to non-vaccinated people. I know that seems bizarre but is apparently proven to be true.

Too, it takes up to two weeks post-vaccination before a high degree of immunity is achieved in the person who received the vaccine. During that time, continued mask-wearing can help prevent them from contracting COVID before utmost immunity is reached (it's in the 80s-90s potentially after time but is not 100% and it takes time to develop).

I see ads on TV for devices or masks that protect one's lipstick from smudging while wearing a mask. Who will see it, I wonder, if we never take our masks off in public. It makes me laugh. And I laugh at myself too if I absent-mindedly apply a touch of make-up and then cover up my face from eyes down to neck. Seems archaic or redundant or whatever word means exceptionally unnecessary. Except for the eyes, maybe. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2021 05:08PM by Nightingale.

When I was a kid, if you were spreading disease the board of health nurse would visit your house and commence to giving you a severe ass kicking. And then she would padlock you inside of your house and then burn your house down.

Tough neighborhood....

Dave couldn't stop laughing when the health nurse visited the wrong house on his street.

She went through three feet of snow to get there--uphill, both ways.

https://i0.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2021/03/IMG_4297.jpg?w=720&ssl=1

Then, there's this:

https://i2.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2021/03/Screen-Shot-2021-03-26-at-1.12.52-PM.png?w=998&ssl=1

If the vaccines actually work we will not need all these restrictions. If they keep them, you should question why.

What drivel you just posted. You are probably one of the folks that never gets an annual flu shot either, correct? Anti-vaxxer???

If we want this to end at some point and for herd immunity to be reached at some point, EVERYONE needs to follow the simple guidelines.

You're arguing against yourself. If the vaccines really work and most people get them we won't need the restrictions anymore, will we? Of course, you've just told us people need the vaccine, but you also want us to keep the restrictions as before. This is the modern version of the Milgram Experiment.

Oh and you mention "herd (sic) immunity". That is a separate issue to vaccination, but you conflate the two.

I don't need advice on vaccinations and "guidelines". I was wearing a mask a year ago before the authorities told us to. I also have a BCG scar on my left arm. I've had so many needles in my arms and butt, I might as well be a pin cushion. But forgive me when I question your logic - we have to have something to get back to. This situation is already skyrocketing suicide, bankruptcy, cardiovascular trouble and even cancer (since some people don't go to the clinic soon enough in these times.)

Get Fact Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was wearing a mask a year ago
> before the authorities told us to.

We know! The mask sets off the tinfoil very nicely!

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Get Fact Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I was wearing a mask a year ago
> > before the authorities told us to.
>
> We know! The mask sets off the tinfoil very
> nicely!

So basically you are calling yourself a tin foil hat wearer, because you love masks. Way to paint yourself into a corner with clichés.

I don't know anyone who wears these mythical tin foil hats (apart from you).

I wore a mask a year ago, because I was already aware of the fact that they reduced transmission. If there is one thing I learnt from the LDS, it was being prepared for something like this. At the time the authorities said they didn't work! That was mainly because you could barely get them anywhere. I don't think they are completely effective, or treat them as some apotropaic device like some on here, but they're better than nothing. I'm not kooky enough to wear them in the car or om a hike though.

Get Fact Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So basically you are calling yourself a tin foil
> hat wearer, because you love masks.

Nope. I hate masks. Nothing in what I said supports your misinterpretation.


---------------
> Way to paint
> yourself into a corner with clichés.

No misinterpretation, no painting oneself into a corner.


-----------
> I'm not kooky enough to wear them in the
> car or om a hike though.

That's gratifying. After the nonsense about the Milgram Experiment and your failure to comprehend the problem of mutations before herd [no sic] immunity is achieved, it's good to see the probability that you are entirely "kooky" diminish a bit.

Humans are not a herd. The fact you describe them as such speaks volumes about your attitude to your fellow humans.

This is reflected in the fact you seem to relish the situation we are in. That is a form of sadism since the aim should be a better life not a worse one. There are better, less cruel ways of dealing with this than what we have seen. Are we going to be browbeaten by every new variant? Are we ever getting back lives which are not micromanaged like a few years ago? If not, why not? Maybe people who see us all as a "herd"/flock to be led by "bell wethers".

There are 101 reasons why human disease issues operate in a different way than farm animals, let alone caribou or bison etc.

You seem to relish your hot dogs!

Many of us do.

Get Fact Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the vaccines actually work we will not need all
> these restrictions. If they keep them, you should
> question why.

The end goal is indeed to dispense with the current restrictions. They are presently in place because humans, indeed, are vulnerable to a new virus to which no-one was immune, not having encountered it previously.

Until the vaccines were available the protective measures were crucial to try and keep down the startling and tragic morbidity and mortality rates.

Now that vaccines have been developed we can see a time when "normal" is again our daily experience. However, that won't happen, health experts explain, until herd immunity is achieved. (Yes, it's '"herd" immunity - I don't know why you put 'sic' to indicate an error there. I note some people misspell it as "heard" immunity, which is an error due to the two words being homophones).

But even after a person receives their full dose/s of a vaccine they have to wait 2 weeks before relaxing their precautions because it takes that long, approximately, for highest immunity to occur.

And relaxing does not denote fully dispensing with all preventive measures even after full vaccination due to the fact that a person who is vaccinated can still carry the COVID-19 virus and infect non-vaccinated people with whom they come into contact.

That is where the herd immunity comes in. Until a majority of the population in each country is vaccinated we will have to carry on with the mask-wearing, social distancing and hygiene practices. There will be more situations in which we can gather (such as in family groups if at least the more vulnerable people are fully vaccinated) but not a total return to "normal" for the duration.

Unfortunately, it is not yet known what percentage of population needs to be vaccinated against COVID-19 to achieve herd immunity.

It is known that 95% of us need to be vaccinated against measles, for instance, before herd immunity is reached.

I don't understand the reluctance to practice these simple measures out of caution for one's own health and consideration for others. How devastating would it be to know we had infected another person through our own carelessness or reluctance to observe the measures and that that person became gravely ill, thereby suffering greatly, or even died, losing their precious life unnecessarily and bringing untold agony to their loved ones?

The bottom line with COVID, unfortunately, is that even after being vaccinated, you can still contract it. The up side there, though, is that apparently having been vaccinated makes the case less severe than it may otherwise have been.

It's not forever. Just for now while we strive to limit the damage and prevent even more enormous and unnecessary loss of life.

Is that really too much to ask?

(Too, I like people who wash their hands regularly, COVID or no COVID).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2021 03:28PM by Nightingale.

According to information from the Cleveland Clinic, what is needed for herd immunity can vary widely. As you mentioned, for measles it takes about 95%. For the seasonal flu, it can be as low as 33% to 44% to achieve herd immunity. Polio is around 80% to achieve herd immunity. The estimate from the Cleveland Clinic is that Covid will require between 50% to 80%, and the Mayo Clinic is stating that experts estimate approximately 70% vaccination to achieve herd immunity from Covid. I do recall an interview with Dr. Fauci not too long ago and if my memory is correct he estimates around 70% to 75%.

NPR has a vaccine tracker and their estimate is that the United States will reach the 50% fully vaccinated threshold around August 13, and will reach 70% fully vaccinated around November 2. So if the herd immunity estimates are correct, the window for obtaining it is late summer at the earliest, and mid to late fall for the more common estimates.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2021 10:15AM by alsd.

The one wrinkle to that story is the variants. No one knows whether mutations will endow new versions of the disease with the ability to evade the existing vaccines. If that happens, then herd immunity won't be attained for longer and perhaps forever: this could become a disease like influenza, which requires annual boosters to immunize people for a rapidly evolving virus, only with a much higher level of deaths and side effects.

Which is why having pools of people resisting vaccination is so dangerous: the more people avoiding the vaccine, the greater the opportunity for mutations to mount. Thus the US hesitancy over the last year transformed the country into basically a Third World petri dish that favored the evolution and spread of dangerous variants.

One day, when Americans come to their political senses, that will be a source of shame.

Good point re variants. I have heard as well that the annual vaccine is a distinct possibility because of them.

A majority of people here in B.C. are following public health directives. Foremost among those who aren't so much are people between 20-40 years old (many of whose large parties and other gatherings and carelessness can affect the rest of us by keeping the infection rate up as well as the potential casualty count, which prolongs the pain and inconvenience of restrictions in everyday life in general). Also in the refusenik category are a few church groups who claim freedom of religion to ignore public health guidelines and continue to have in-person meetings. Some receive tickets for the transgression fee ($2300.00 per event) but continue to hold gatherings anyway.

I do not comprehend what reasons they can provide to go against public health orders for which there is a clear need to prevent catastrophe. The Bible seems to clearly state that people should obey those in authority. If they were only shutting down churches there may be an argument to be had. But many businesses are closed by government order (eg: gyms, nightclubs, banquet halls) so it's not a move against religion but rather a general public health order in a time of potential calamity. As long as their flocks are willing to pay up for the fines they're receiving it will continue to be a problem, and a puzzler. At least to me. What is their reasoning, I wonder.

I don't like the phrase "herd immunity", because I don't consider us all cattle. Even if some of us try damn hard to act as if they are.

We can't keep this up forever. We need something to go back to other than collapse, and more and more restriction and micromanagement. This is the modern Milgram Experiment, if a man in a white coat suggests a solution which is worse than the crisis, you don't have to follow him. Find someone who suggests a solution which does the least harm. That would not be the current one, because it is inconsistent, discriminatory and destructive.

"inconsistent, discriminatory and destructive." ... how so ?

Get Fact Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Find someone
> who suggests a solution which does the least harm.
> That would not be the current one, because it is
> inconsistent, discriminatory and destructive.

Let us know when you are smarter than the man in the white coat.

He should be skipping posting here and get crackin' on sending the man in the white coat the URLs to the YouTube videos that provide all the facts!

Why the heck is he wasting time with RfM? Get the truth to the men in the white coats!!!

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why the heck is he wasting time with RfM? Get the
> truth to the men in the white coats!!!

Because people on here have misrepresented the nature of science. Many of the things that they support are not backed by basic science, let alone more advanced research.

Much of the messaging has been political, not scientific. It is also amusing to see people's binary thinking i.e. if you're not 100% obedient, you're obviously an Alex Jones fan. It reminds me of LDS thinking - either you are of God or of the Devil. That and the authority thing - you can't even have a proper baptism without the priesthood keys. The same type of thinking persists among some exmos.

Thank you for your response, but it doesn't alter the fact that basically you are just here to brag.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Get Fact Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Find someone
> > who suggests a solution which does the least
> harm.
> > That would not be the current one, because it
> is
> > inconsistent, discriminatory and destructive.
>
> Let us know when you are smarter than the man in
> the white coat.

You obviously aren't. You know nothing about the nature of real science. Wearing a lab coat doesn't make you right all the time. But if you are prepared to be cruel because someone in a uniform tells you to then that places you firmly into Milgram Experiment territory. Especially when it does unnecessary harm.

There is a reason we have peer review and scientific debate. Because science is not just one person/group's viewpoint. Suppressing debate is not science.

People who work in science do not all hold the same opinion. Fact. Scientists may also contradict one another. Fact. Data can be interpreted in more than one way. Fact. When politicians and big businesses get involved, things can be twisted. Fact. Read scientific journals not government press releases.

A lot of the measures we have now are either non-scientific or based on psychology, not virology. You cannot have effectie isolation while fast food and Amazon/eBay etc are delivering to people's doors daily.

Juries have the same situation, they can view the same evidence and draw different conclusions.

There's a lot of pretension in that post but little substance. Rather than bloviate about authoritarianism and how science is supposed to work, why don't you show us the "peer reviewed" science that supports your position?

Otherwise, you're just abusing yourself.