Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: April 05, 2021 08:25AM

I mean, I know that lots of things are objectively true, but are those basically stories inside my skull? The story sounds plausible so I go with it. If I test it and get the expected results, it reinforces the belief in my head.

But, given my limited sensory input, what is the difference between the truth and a lie other than the teller’s belief? It seems everyone wants a story. They want something to believe. You can’t just present raw facts because you either hit a wall or they can’t connect the dots. This is because humans are intrinsically irrational beings. Evolution made us this way. It’s all Maya. We needed a story and Joseph Smith told us one. Because God is a story and inside the story we found our truth. Or what we thought was truth until it wasn’t.

The church lied to me big time. But who hasn’t? I went to college, back when it was less of a scam. Learned lots of useful truths. But, they also taught me lies. Some of them egregious whoppers, although probably not as harmful as Mormon lies. Purveyors of culture aren’t exactly bulwarks of truth. It took me many years to extricate myself from that insanity. Or did I? When you’re born into an asylum, maybe death is the only escape.

By the same token, Mormonism taught me some useful truths. It had to, or I wouldn’t have believed the lies. The truth is inside me. Seek and ye shall find. Useful stuff. I could be a cafeteria Mormon, the only kind there should be, if that were accepted. Or not, judging from the kind of people the religion produces.

But anyway, I’m recovered. It only took 10 years.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: thegoodman ( )
Date: April 05, 2021 09:26AM

What is truth? Sensory input is a story in my head? Someone's been in lockdown for too long.

What truths does Mormonism provide that you couldn't also have while remaining outside of it?

I don't think it is useful or productive to support or validate what they are doing to people. Even if you yourself are able to go to the cafeteria and end up just fine. By going, you're letting others know that this is okay. That a little deception is okay because "everybody everywhere does it."

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: April 07, 2021 08:22AM

These explorations are kind of obligatory when one’s identity has been upended multiple times. Who am I, really?

We are all beyond time and space. I am. I am the truth, the light and the way, and so are you.

And yet I am me. Or what I imagine to be me. What’s the difference? Or does one make the other?

There’s no bad religion, only bad domain mapping*. I think the topological landscape of the eternal realm is at least somewhat understood by religions.

You would think the physical non-existence of time, in both modern Physics and esoteric terms, would break the conceptual models of time-bound doctrines such as the after life and the preexistence. Those are myths that overlay a deeper reality.

But if you consider biblical cosmology from a no-time perspective, it still works. Original sin is in the psyche. It’s not your ancestors then, it’s you now. Now is all there is. The Babylonian captivity, the exodus, the promised land, that’s all the story of you. Your journey, what it’s like to be you, because how else can you explain it? How can you explain what it’s like to be you? You can’t. So it might be a bit much to ask of a religion.

* of course we know there are bad religions and cults, but in general.

Options: ReplyQuote
Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Human ( )
Date: April 05, 2021 10:15AM

“Purveyors of culture aren’t exactly bulwarks of truth.”

Many RfMers want to know things. Many students go to College to know things. Knowledge is the thing that is sought.

What’s wanted are things for the mind to hold onto, solid things that won’t change, that are permanent. Facts, facts are what is wanted. And they better be true facts, facts that can’t change, facts that don’t reveal themselves to be anything but as time ticks on.

But what of experience? That’s a different thing. For one, experience is ephemeral. It’s a fact that I once jumped out of a aeroplane (tandem), but the experience of that fact will always remain in that moment, no matter how many times I remember that moment. The remembering is a different experience, an ephemeral moment all of its own.

Culture should be understood as experience. It’s a bulwark for the possibilities and varieties of human experience. It enlarges the possibilities of human life, our ways of being, with ourselves, others, and our environment. Quite simply, a poem isn’t true or false, it is a valued experience or it is not. The same goes for whatever it is people are watching on Netflix.

In contrasting Virginia Woolf’s aestheticism to her father’s empiricism, Harold Bloom wrote:

“Religion, science, philosophy, politics, social movements: are these live birds in our hands or dead, stuffed birds on the shelf? When our conceptual modes abandon us, we return to literature, where cognition, perception, and sensation cannot be wholly disentangled. The flight from the aesthetic is another symptom of our society's unconscious but purposeful forgetting of its dilemma, its slide into another Theological Age.

--Harold Bloom--
--The Western Canon--

Today, in College, you are more likely to be taught a feminist, a political, a this-is-what-we-know version of Virginia Woolf, with her aestheticism, her affinity with her mentor Walter Pater, whom her father hated, completely ignored. College teachers would rather hand down to their students dead, stuffed birds “about” Woolf, labelled and slotted with all the proper -isms, rather than teach a student how to experience To the Lighthouse, Orlando, or The Waves. It’s much easier to teach ideologies, a pretence of knowing, than it is to teach experience, which must be got out of the student himself or herself or themself or etc. The “flight from the aesthetic” is a tragedy.

Culture as experience rather than as knowing is about asking a simple question:

“What is this song or picture, this engaging personality presented in life or in a book, to me? What effect does it really produce on me.”

--Walter Pater--
--The Renaissance--

Human, here for the experience, knowing that knowing ain’t nothin’ but a hero sandwich.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: April 07, 2021 04:07AM

Thanks for playing. I swear I wrote that post sober.

There’s no fool like an old fool. I can toss my marbles around like this because I’m sure I’ll gather them up in the end. Isn’t that what they all say?

Ultimate truth is a paradox. If we had it, how could we function here? You have to buy into the illusion to exist in it. The act of being is an act of faith. We humans are faith incarnate. That’s what the Christ story is, in mystical form. It’s the story of us.

That’s not to give the Mormon church a free pass. These law abusers will get what’s coming to them because the IRS has a particular view of the law and the church has thrown away too much goodwill. Or, and I hope I’m wrong, the totalitarian tide will sweep away such “problems”.

Maybe I’m too quick to forgive my past abusers, but no matter what I do, they won’t change. Because they can’t. All I’m left with is armchair psychoanalysis of a worldwide cultish perversion of Christianity.

Would I have traded this for anything else? What, are you kidding? No, always follow your heart. Follow it into the depths of Hell and out the other side, because isn’t the other side what it’s all about? That’s what I love about this community. You get it. You get what love is because Mormonism bent you over and gave you some luvin’ you’d never forget.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2021 04:26AM by bradley.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: csuprovograd ( )
Date: April 05, 2021 10:27AM

Easy access to information gives people the notion that they are well informed and thus they derive satisfaction in their belief that this wealth of information bestows truth upon them.

Information is not always truth.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 07, 2021 12:26PM

Isn't that why in some circles, in-coming data is called noise?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 07, 2021 12:34PM

How many 600 page volumes would be required to ID the lies and the liars who lie?

It isn't hard to notice at how early an age a human can lie.

Lies are extremely useful...

Lies have been certified by esteemed entities and governments as being preferable to the Truth.

We use lies to protect people for whom the Truth would be needlessly damaging/hurtful.

We use lies to motivate and sustain people involved in both drudgery and/or danger.

Lies! Where would humanity be without them?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: April 05, 2021 10:35AM

What is true or what is a lie is an irrelevant notion.

We live in a world where what is useful is what counts. Even BKP knew that. The ego wants what the ego wants.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: summer ( )
Date: April 05, 2021 10:53AM

SusieQ#1 used to refer to these as "god stories." For whatever reason, there seems to be a deep-seated human need for them.

In my youth I studied world religions. That helped me to realize that people and cultures had come up with many different solutions to the fundamental questions of life. And many of those solutions were radically different from what I had been raised with.

Years later, I was reading a fictional story set in ancient Pompeii. The wife in the story had gone to the temple to make supplications to one of her gods (Jupiter, perhaps.) It dawned on me that she believed in that god as sincerely as modern people believe in the Abrahamic god. Who is to say that she was mistaken?

And I finally put it together reading about the itinerant preacher, Joseph of Nazareth. I came to realize that traveling preachers and healers were not at all unusual for that time. Also, that while he was well regarded in both roles, he was perhaps not the best regarded. And finally, that his mission was to the Jews, and he had a weak regard for gentiles at best. The people who most ardently follow him now would not have held more than momentary interest for him while he was alive. The gentiles were not his people. They were never his mission.

I think it was then that I was most clearly able to see the myth, the "god story" in the religion in which I had been raised to believe was the truth. There are good things in Christianity. I like the emphasis on helping others, and on forgiving where you are able. But Christianity is also used as a blunt instrument by people who are no better (and maybe worse) than I am.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: April 07, 2021 05:01AM

There’s the rub. It’s so easily hijacked by emotional players like Joseph Smith and Donald Trump. The evangelical lunacy of the latter movement baffles me. Sinner Donald has seen the light, pay no attention to his ways. They know he’s lying to them but they believe the lies because they want to. They are complicit. So now we are back to the storytellers. But life isn’t about their story. It’s about yours. Who can tell your story but you? And, like Johnny Depp’s “Rango”, who is really the hero of your story?

This emotional hijacking I think is what angers Exmos the most. It’s that we allowed all of this. This travesty of being masquerading as some higher understanding. It was only a superior understanding of the con. The tragedy in this is not seeing it through. You knew the Christ, you lived it, yet they turned your goodness against you. No Virginia, these are not good men.

In an age when cartoon lizards are acting out the story of Exodus, maybe the time of religions has passed. George Lucas gave Christianity its archaic revival so masterfully that the pope might as well hang up his hat. Stan Lee’s cosmology, or the Bible as a comic book, is so much more engaging than the old versions.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: April 05, 2021 12:25PM

Only if you are alone or with somebody

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Eric K ( )
Date: April 05, 2021 12:53PM

An excellent book on the myths we create for ourselves is - Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari. You will look at the world a bit differently after reading that book. I cannot recommend it enough.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 05, 2021 06:11PM

Would we all be better off if Schrodinger's Cat read it?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: April 07, 2021 05:32AM

I’ll get the dice.

Let me guess: Human civilization is the end result of a mind game the monkeys would play because, well, monkeys. Where would we be if we hadn’t learned to lie? There would be no civilization. No modern world. That was the price. The lie, the fall from grace, tell the lie to make the world what you want, not simply what arises from being. Because if the miracle of being isn’t enough for you then the world of lies must do until love finds a way. But like I said, your story, your way, your truth.

I’d take EOD’s truth over Wendy’s anytime.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2021 05:35AM by bradley.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: April 07, 2021 01:19PM

I’ve read it.
It leaves a lot to be desired.
Says nothing about our predecessor, Homo Sapiens Idaltu.
What history of Sapiens is complete without including the fist Homo Sapiens, Idaltu, First Wise Man, Elder. Adam.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 07, 2021 02:06PM

> What history of Sapiens is
> complete without including
> the fist Homo Sapiens, Idaltu,
> First Wise Man, Elder. Adam.

Could you expand on this theme?

And why wouldn't it be fair to say that the collective 'we' will never have a complete history of where our species came from?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: April 11, 2021 12:08AM

Eric K Wrote:
> An excellent book on the myths we create for
> ourselves is - Sapiens: A Brief History of
> Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari. You will look at
> the world a bit differently after reading that
> book. I cannot recommend it enough.

I received my copy today, but all I have had time to do is some miscellaneous initial searching--subjects in the Index I am most personally interested in.

From the bits I have had time to read, it seems like a fascinating and really worthwhile book.

I will return and report when I have finished reading the entire book in its normal order. :)

Thank you, Eric!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: April 13, 2021 02:11PM


"Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind" is one of the best and most valuable books I have ever read (or, to be more accurate at this moment, kept on reading--since I am largely still reading it in out-of-order segments, which is the way I read many of my most intellectually valuable books).

Deep, broad, amazing right after another. These are insights I would have had no ability to "see" or to describe myself without this book--yet once they are pointed out by this author, are immediately "so" obvious! [I could never have done myself what this author does so seemingly easily.]

My perspective on world history and human history will never again be the same.

Thank you, once again, for this very most important recommendation!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Eric K ( )
Date: April 13, 2021 04:09PM

It will definitely change your perspectives on many topics. I am glad you are enjoying it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: anonculus ( )
Date: April 06, 2021 12:33AM

You'll never understand "Casey at the Bat" unless you've stood at the plate and struck out.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 06, 2021 12:45AM

I heard somewhere that ever since his baseball failure, Casey's been driving that train. . .

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 06, 2021 01:31AM

John Casey was a steel driving train?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: April 06, 2021 02:33AM

He drove it until the wreck in which he met his demise at the end of the poem, anyway.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 06, 2021 02:51AM

All that Coca Cola finally did him in?


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: April 06, 2021 03:59AM

Yep. The WOW is the real deal . . . except that the current interpretation is that Coke isn't, nor was it ever, against the WOW. *

It was ALMOST a faith-promoting literary allusion.

*despite a thousand or more temple recommends having been denied issuance or renewal over that very issue

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2021 04:01AM by scmd1.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: April 07, 2021 05:50AM

I thought it was Tommy’s Diet Pepsi that did him in. It’s hard to tell since it doubles as embalming fluid.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: April 07, 2021 05:47AM

Make enough kids read Moby Dick, maybe some of them will get creative.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Cold-Dodger ( )
Date: April 06, 2021 02:12AM

Some people believe that we're simulations, like a dream, and one day the dreamer will wake up and nothing that happened here will have ever mattered.

Some people believe that nothing is more real that God's creation and there is a purpose and an eternal, perfect, and objective truth hiding behind every upturned stone.

I believe that the human mind is what the human brain does. It has many pitfalls, but it works well enough most of the time, at least for everyday purposes.

For example, you have gaps your vision right in the middle of your eyesight. You brain fills it in or filters it out, but you're holding something directly in front of you and just the right angle it will disappear. You can notice this when you're star gazing.

The mind is an advanced simulation computer running the most advanced simulation software that Mother Nature ever made herself. Your dreams are the brain de-fragmenting itself and condensing memories while it also cleans out toxins built up from being awake and conscious and active all day. The images and feelings and narrative structure are all the same mechanisms that fire during the day firing in all the same ways at night just divorced from sensory input.

When someone does DMT, they are experiencing their brain in new ways they never felt before. Everything has a new texture or feeling, and the ways that things connect are different. A lot of the boundaries between "things" are completely arbitrary, we come to realize. We're taking a prolonged peek under the hood of the mind when we trip by changing the way that it works just slightly.

The mind is truly what the brain does, and you can train it to do amazing things. I wouldn't say everything is a lie. Lies themselves have no meaning outside of human perception. Lies are, well... speech evolved because it was a useful way to convey meaning to other minds, and being deliberately given defective intel through speech is annoying, to say the least, so we call those minds liars and refuse our affections if they don't stop. It's a human thing.

Many animals evolve deceptive tactics to avoid predators. Evolution never stops. It shapes insects into stick-analogs, makes owl feathers look like tree bark, shapes caterpillars into something resembling a diamondback snake head complete with a forked tongue if you startle it, and it can even shape crab shells to resemble a Japanese warrior with crazy face paint on - look up the Haike Crab. It's amazing what natural selection plus descent with modification can do. Life lies to other forms of life in any way that they can, usually unconsciously, in order to survive. If you can hoodwink or otherwise take advantage of a gap in another species' sensual perception or cognitive awareness, someone in your species will happen to find a way just by accidental mutation, and their offspring will be safe from that predator and yours won't. Until the predator adapts too. It's a constant arms race.

Our minds are the result of 3.8 billion years of an evolutionary arms race. We don't often think about how long it took to get just a basic eukaryotic cell, the highly active kind of cell that forms the basis of all multicellular life. And then complex multicellular life had to be around for another 550 million years before it made anything with a nervous system like us. We are a happy accident, a way for the Universe to perceive and know itself.

All of that meaning is subjective. Color doesn't exist. Things are not "red," the light waves that some matters reflects falls in a wavelength 780 - 622 nanometers, and your brain has found a useful way to tell that wavelength from others that it can perceive.

Red 780 - 622
Orange 622 - 597
Yellow 597 - 577
Green 577 - 492
Blue 492 - 455
Violet 455 - 390

There are wavelengths longer than 780 nanometers, but you can't see them. Those are inrared waves, which is just some arbitrary distintion we made. Think of it like a color your brain hasn't evolved yet that your eyes cannot see. Maybe someday our descendents will have that capacity, but for now it has not been necessary and no mutation of the kind has happened to anybody. Perhaps there is someone out there who can see a little into the infrared and a little into the ultraviolet and they just don't know that it isn't typical. Maybe their brains interpret that in colors that their fellows do not see. We can track evolutionary changes in our ability to see various colors through lingual evolution. Not every language has a word for blue, for example. Food for thought. People who can't see blue, it could be said, are living a lie. We tend to think of such basic things as the foundation of how any conscious creature sees the universe, but not necessarily. You have no idea what strategies another sapient species has developed for cognition. There's no guarantee anything of it works the same way. It's all arbitary based on whatever mechanisms evolution has happened to bequeath upon you in the billion-year struggle for survival.

I'm happy to know that my consciousness it a product of the micro-doings of my neurons and the ways they're all connected. Someday it will cease, and I will cease. I'm fine with this. "I" doesn't really mean anything anyways. My brain has many different regions all vying for my attention at any given moment and "I" don't really decide which one drives. Scientists can predict how you will think in response to a stimulus by observing your brain activity and they can tell you up to ten seconds in advance what you will say. It's not perfect, but if they can predict your thoughts with B-level accuracy, that's a sign that our brains are biological machines that work in predictable ways.

It's all about helping us to survive, and sometimes the adaptations only work just well enough, but sometimes mother nature endows us with so much more than we ever needed. I think of the human mind like that. We are capable of so much more cognition than we ever needed just to survive. Happy accident, but also accidents only make sense in a human brain. The universe doesn't "intend" anything or "neglect" anything. These are human concepts. Just think about how cool it is that matter on one planet formed itself into complex enough configurations that they are capable of advanced cognition and speech and can look at the world around them and make sense of it in an internal simulation and ask themselves, "why the actual fuck is any of this here?" There's no why. That's a human concept. I guess everything is a lie from a certain point of view, but it's close enough to what your senses are getting from the universe around you. It is a way to cognicize it. There are other ways. The only thing that matters is that your simulation machine tucked away in your skull makes simulations that work well enough to survive.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 06, 2021 07:08PM

According to people who type on the internet, purple isn't a real color and doesn't have a wavelength of its own.

I know! I'm sad, too.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: April 07, 2021 05:54AM

Prince GAVE it a real color!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: April 06, 2021 08:28AM

Several years ago, I read about colors and how the eyes and brain process them. There are indeed colors that most of us never see but that a very select few people see in their every day lives. It's not mystical in any way. The cones in the eyes that sence colors are far more developed in just these very few individuals. The article said something about this occurring almost exclusively in cases where certain other members of the same family have color blindness issues. I forget what the relationships are. But they are very consistent in family relationships where this occurs. I can't remember if it is always siblings, or something else consistent relationship wise where it occurs (color blindness in some and super color abilities in related others).

I also saw a documentary where they explained that our eyes only see an area of the world about the size of a quarter (coin) at any one time (think of looking through a tube). The rest of the world that we see is painted by our minds, from memory. Esentially, the refresh rate is very low and our brain fills-in the gaps, sometimes causing errors in our perception.

These differences in perception from one individual to the next, and even within ourselves seem to only be incidental when it comes to the truth itself. Whatever color the speed limit sign is, we'll all get the same speeding ticket if we're speeding at the right time and place that is being closely monitored to catch people who are speeding. I believe that there are common truths, and that only our perception differs.

This brings us to lies and truth. Some things are issues of perception and others are absolutes. How we spend our money is based on our personal perception of value. That typically differs from one person to the next based on what is important to us. But other things are absolutes. How much money you have is a fixed value, a truth. But the value of that money is based heavily on perception.

Some people lie routinely about critical things. Some people call it "truth in advance" or may have other names for it. Whatever they call it, it's all just lying. The Mormon church does a lot of lying to get people to join and to remain in it. And that's the truth.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2021 08:39AM by azsteve.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: April 07, 2021 06:35AM

I counted on mom to get it right. I really did. So when she raised me Mormon, I thought that Mormonism was my ideal. The Mormons were supposed to have it all figured out. It turns out they were just an overpriced social club.

But in Mom’s defense, she was a rabid Bircher and G. Gordon Liddy fan, which when combined with other family adversities gave me the exact mental toughness I needed to survive the looney bin society I was born into. Transcending the hate, that’s the trick. Maybe Mormonism was just the attitude adjustment I needed. Now if I can just pick up all my teeth from the sidewalk.

And, in a weird kind of way, strengthened my faith. Faith in Christ, not faith in the church. The church can go to Hell. Fuck the church and its faithless do-nothings. No, I’ve been forced to completely re-evaluate what I thought I knew about reality.

I understand why Joseph Smith did what he did. What a terrible burden to be “that guy”, so despised. To conjure up a sect that’s by its very nature (justly) faces persecution is pure religious genius. It produced a very intense and loyal faith.

Brigham Young understood the game, perhaps all too well, when he took his followers west. He didn’t “exterminate the injuns” all by himself, he just had his followers treat other human beings, their professed “brothers” in the most Un-Christlike ways imaginable. It’s no stretch to call Brother Brigham a mass murderer, baby killer, and general man whore. It’s no wonder there is a University named after him. Why aren’t there more?

More to the point, where are the reparations for the church sponsored genocide? Is that the rainy day? Because if it’ll be a cold day in Hell, they might want to rethink the Hell part.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2021 06:51AM by bradley.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: dogbloggernli ( )
Date: April 06, 2021 10:31AM

Because of limitations of our senses and systems, it is more useful to think of all knowledge as provisional pending higher quality data.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 06, 2021 02:11PM

Yep. Truth is out there but for us approaching it is a trial-and-error process, like science when it's done right: refinement of ideas as new information becomes available.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: April 06, 2021 01:42PM

Everything I say is a lie, including this sentence.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: April 06, 2021 07:28PM

Mormon leaders have Sold Their Souls,

at least those above your friendly neighborhood SP;

even my daughter buys the lies bc 'it's good for the kids' (BARF-A-RONI!)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: April 07, 2021 01:23PM

Lies We Tell Kids


Some parents feel a strong adherence to an ethnic or religious group and want their kids to feel it too. This usually requires two different kinds of lying: the first is to tell the child that he or she is an X, and the second is whatever specific lies Xes differentiate themselves by believing. [5]

Telling a child they have a particular ethnic or religious identity is one of the stickiest things you can tell them. Almost anything else you tell a kid, they can change their mind about later when they start to think for themselves. But if you tell a kid they're a member of a certain group, that seems nearly impossible to shake.

This despite the fact that it can be one of the most premeditated lies parents tell. When parents are of different religions, they'll often agree between themselves that their children will be "raised as Xes." And it works. The kids obligingly grow up considering themselves as Xes, despite the fact that if their parents had chosen the other way, they'd have grown up considering themselves as Ys.

One reason this works so well is the second kind of lie involved. The truth is common property. You can't distinguish your group by doing things that are rational, and believing things that are true. If you want to set yourself apart from other people, you have to do things that are arbitrary, and believe things that are false. And after having spent their whole lives doing things that are arbitrary and believing things that are false, and being regarded as odd by "outsiders" on that account, the cognitive dissonance pushing children to regard themselves as Xes must be enormous. If they aren't an X, why are they attached to all these arbitrary beliefs and customs? If they aren't an X, why do all the non-Xes call them one?

This form of lie is not without its uses. You can use it to carry a payload of beneficial beliefs, and they will also become part of the child's identity. You can tell the child that in addition to never wearing the color yellow, believing the world was created by a giant rabbit, and always snapping their fingers before eating fish, Xes are also particularly honest and industrious. Then X children will grow up feeling it's part of their identity to be honest and industrious.

This probably accounts for a lot of the spread of modern religions, and explains why their doctrines are a combination of the useful and the bizarre. The bizarre half is what makes the religion stick, and the useful half is the payload. [6]

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Just Saying ( )
Date: April 07, 2021 03:32PM

Parents who sincerely believe in a set of values, or the truth of some religious dogma, are not lying to their children when they share, teach, encourage, or even demand the same allegiance. That includes Mormon parents. "Lying" requires a knowing (intentional) misrepresentation of facts. Thus, regardless of how irrational or ill informed a religious (or other) belief might be, if a parent believes it, or "knows" it to be true, it is not a lie to attempt to instill such beliefs in their children. (Of course, that does not make it good parenting! Good parenting requires more than not lying!)

Thus, it seems to me that parental lying to children is rare; and it is usually innocuous. (e.g. encouraging belief in Santa Claus) What is damaging is when parents just get the "facts" wrong, and through their teaching, the child incorporates such false "facts" into their own worldview, only to become confused and disoriented when the true facts are later discovered.

On the other hand, a parent that knows Mormonism (for example) is false, or suspects the same, yet for personal convenience and to avoid controversy allows his children to continue to believe and be taught such falsities, either by silent acquiescence, or affirmative participation, *is* lying to them; and causing even greater potential harm!

In short, the *moral* indictment (if there is one) as related to Mormon parents is NOT in sincerely believing what is false; it is in not fully disengaging after one becomes aware that it is false.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: April 07, 2021 03:18PM

Who is telling you it is lie?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: April 10, 2021 07:24PM

All the world is a stage and life is just a game. In short you say or do what is required to get what you want from others.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 10, 2021 07:25PM

What if, like Gladys Lot, all you want to do is give?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Cauda ( )
Date: April 11, 2021 02:52AM

The lie is in the quality and level of social or psychological enmeshment with manipulative people that are wrong and want control in a world of multilevel scarcity.

Concrete Example, Wrong = There is no difference when it comes down to nutritional value between a bottle of vodka or fresh-pressed orange juice. If someone say there is a difference that person is a liar witholding you the beneficial truth. You can drink a bottle of vodka before an olympic race and win the gold medal and break the both the WR and Olympic Record. If thou drink a glass of orange juice thou will collapse because of sugar spike.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Dr. No ( )
Date: April 11, 2021 09:43AM

So -- one who navigates life purely through Belief really better hope they latch onto something approaching near-real

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 11, 2021 01:13PM

It won't matter in 50 years what your "everything" is/was.

Which leaves the bigger, more sustained ripples, love or hate?

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In

Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 **     **   *******   **        **     **  **     ** 
 **     **  **     **  **        **     **  **     ** 
 **     **  **     **  **        **     **  **     ** 
 **     **   ********  **        **     **  **     ** 
  **   **          **  **         **   **    **   **  
   ** **    **     **  **          ** **      ** **   
    ***      *******   ********     ***        ***