"A horse is a horse, of course, of course

No one should take drugs for a horse, of course.

That is of course, unless the horse is the Famous Dr. Rand."

Granddad used horse lineament for his arthritis.

That's funny. I just inject my painful joints with the Pfizer vaccine.

Not sure that was in jest.

With the remoteness of their ranches, the Veterinarian was often the only person some ranchers would see. Granddad said the Vet was far better a doctor than any regular doctor he visited.

Many medications work on animals and people. My local pharmacy fills scripts for critters right alongside ones for people.

At one time the dog and I took the same meds. Different doses, his was in s blue bottle mine in the standard brown.

Of course not all meds are safe for both people and critters.

Only a complete fool takes the wrong drug for the wrong bug.

Yes, it was a joke.

Granddad said the Vet was far better a doctor than any regular doctor he visited.

Note to self, change primary care physician to a veterinarian.

Aren't we all animals?

Heartless Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Many medications work on animals and people.

> not all meds are safe for both people
> and critters.

> Only a complete fool takes the wrong drug for the
> wrong bug.

Yes. A thousand times. And then a thousand times more. (I think that's a song).


> Different doses

This would be the #1 major concept for people to wrap their heads around. It's what some people are getting wrong and ending up in ER or the morgue.

Hint: Many animals are larger than humans - they need bigger doses than we do. Taking too much of a good thing (if it's indeed a good thing for what ails ya) is an overdose - overdoses are dangerous.

Again. Basic science/medicine.

Applied as an ointment is probably a lot safer than ingesting. Also there's the CDC's warning that the drug won't help with COVID, making any dosage a bad idea for that ailment.

Excellent point re not effective for COVID.

I think we've covered the timeline for when that was first mentioned, tested, rejected for this use, but somehow all too many people only heard the first part, when it was being tested, and didn't take note of the follow up - the conclusion that it's not recommended for prevention or treatment of COVID.

It's the same story with the vaccines. The anti-vaxxers kept whining that the vaccines had not received "full approval," by which they meant normal legal "authorization." But when the treatments received that approval, nary a one of them embraced the vaccines. They merely moved the goalposts and kept complaining.

When an opinion is impervious to facts, it should be disregarded.

Yes. I stand all amazed. As the song says.

First time I've had a use for that!

   Who was it who was bragging about having to use horse condoms?

*Zap



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2021 02:10AM by Lot's Wife.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>    Who was it who was bragging about having to
> use horse condoms?

Dave's the mare though

Just don't have sex with them. It is inhumane.

"The 4 stages of COVID denial:

1. It's a hoax.

2. Don't be a sheep.

3. Prayers needed.

4. Visit our GoFund Me.."

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "The 4 stages of COVID denial:
>
> 1. It's a hoax.
>
> 2. Don't be a sheep.
>
> 3. Prayers needed.
>
> 4. Visit our GoFund Me.."


3. Ivermectin
4. Prayers
5. GoFund

Fixed it!

Worked for Joe Rogan. One of many things he chugged down and swallowed. I'm sure it helped that he is a very health conscious person anyway and has a good immune system. Likely had to get the vaccine but not sure.

He's very health conscious but he consumes pharmaceuticals not recommended for use by humans for this virus?

Doesn't compute.

Newsflash
There are doctors for humans and animals.

Doctors prescribe different doses for both species.

I know the Mississippi horse dewormer story is fresh on many minds here at rfm. Those folks in MS have not paid attention to dosage calculations apparently.

India state GOA prescribes ivermectin to entire adult population back on May 2021.
Decision based on expert panels testing in UK, Italy, Spain, and Japan.

"Ivermectin loses favour in India’s Covid treatment protocol"

(June 8, 2021)

"India's new guidelines for treating Covid has finally dropped the use of controversial Ivermectin, HCQ, and Favipiravir- but they may not disappear from Covid prescriptions just yet, fear some"

https://www.asiafinancial.com/ivermectin-loses-favour-in-indias-covid-treatment-protocol

I said, in part, "... pharmaceuticals not recommended for use by humans for this virus".

That was phrased awkwardly. The point I intended to convey is that ivermectin is NOT RECOMMENDED as a treatment for COVID-19.

Because. Ivermectin is an anti-parasitic medication. COVID-19 is caused by a virus (SARS-CoV-2) not a parasite.

An anti-parasitic medication does not kill a virus.

An anti-viral medication does not kill a parasite.

See how that works?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2021 04:56PM by Nightingale.

> Decision based on expert panels
> testing in UK, Italy, Spain,
> and Japan.

    I recall reading an attempt to explain India's use of Ivermectin as the result of having ZERO other remedies and the appropriate authorities saying to themselves, "Well, Shiva help us, we've got to look like we are trying to help!  If we don't do something now, Vishnu only knows what will happen to our careers!  Let's try Ivermectin, for Brahma's sake!  Or else we're going to be fed to Yama!!"

    In other words, they had literally nothing, so Ivermectin was just a palliative, both for their careers and the billion-plus citizens of India.

    Yes, yes, I know I'm wrong, but what the Naraka can a guy do?

I don't think Phazer is going to point us to any actual present sources. He's claimed that India is using Ivermectin and that's no longer true; he's referred to a study in Japan that is probably the study I read, dating to 2011 and not touching on viruses at all.

A good rule of thumb: evidence or it didn't happen.

Its corollary: if a poster won't provide evidence, it probably didn't happen.

Google around and you'll find the story.

In any case, Ivermectin is not the solution however it appears to be more helpful than not being helpful.

I saw a graph comparing vaccinations and ivermectin usage between highly vaccinated countries like Israel compared to low vaccination rate counties such as India and the graph is quite revealing.

Very low case covid19 case counts in India vs Israel.

Nope. You vaguely refer to several studies and we chased a couple down, showing them discredited. You can assert that we didn't find the right ones, but I don't think you'll bother to expose your sources to the disinfecting light of day.

Bottom line: that which is asserted without sources can be dismissed without sources.

Dave, you always make me laugh

Ivermectin works as an alternate lyric for the Hallelujah Chorus. That could be turned into one of the greatest Super Bowl tv ads ever.

I’m sure Handel wouldn’t mind.

Snap. We both posted ivermectin at the same time.

Great minds 'n all that.

It works for this Schoolhouse Rock too. It's ripe for parody.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkAX7Vk3JEw

Ivermectin!

Now Amazon is touting it..good grief. I guess it is something about their algorithims or something but still...

Are drugs involved if you think your donkey is talking to you?

Only if a snake walks by during the conversation.

Snake walks. LOL

The Egyptian papyri Joseph had included a snake with legs. Joseph used that picture to say the papyri contained the story of the garden of eden.

The notion of a snake that walks and talks in Eden is far older than JS's exposure to the papyrus. It's even in the Torah and has continued to arise in Jewish and Christian sources episodically ever since.

All believers had to deal with the same myth: a snake that God cursed to slither on its belly, implying it had previously not slithered on its belly. I'm confident JS knew of the occult idea of a walking snake before he ever encountered the Egyptian exhibit.

A snake with legs - apt.

   The funeral I went to in Orem was of a TBM, who was a believer/non-believer.  He believed in Ivermectin, but didn't believe in the Covid vaccine.

   Smart guy in so many other ways.  Life insurance up the wazoo, so no need for a GoFuņdMe page.  That was nice to learn...

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He believed in
> Ivermectin, but didn't believe in the Covid
> vaccine.


How very unfortunate. It's surprising how many people can reject as faith-based a treatment with nearly unanimous expert opinion behind it and simultaneously imbibing the most factitious of Kool-Aid concoctions.

in this thred ~


atheistic emxos display they self-rightous glorification of the human form ~


derogatoring exmos with actual experience in animal husbandry ~


while these exmos equate humans with animals ~


they delegate non-human animal health science as being beneath them ~


and take pride in they adopted moral high-ground ~


and in they unfeigned faith in the wisdom of humankind ~

So you take ivermectin to prevent COVID infection or just for scabies?

Moo!

CZ (moo)

ziller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> they delegate non-human animal health science as
> being beneath them ~

Not being beneath. But one branch of health science is for humans and another is for animals. Doctors in both fields are giving heartfelt warnings about the dangers of people consuming medication tested and formulated for animals. Animal dosages are far too high for humans, especially in meds intended for use for horses and cows. They are bigger, much bigger, weightier, than humans. There's a clue there with regards to safety in types and dosages of medications.


> and in they unfeigned faith in the wisdom of
> humankind ~

Not faith. Knowledge. The vaccines have been tested and approved (many people said they were waiting for said approval so it's their move now). Too, meds being used to treat patients with COVID-19 have already been in use for many years, with good safety records and known mechanisms of action. Their precise effect on specific symptoms are the reason they are prescribed for patients who have those symptoms (and some are used for preventive action, iow to forestall said symptoms).

The principles are actually really basic and familiar science.

Nightingale Wrote:
----------------------------------------------
>
> Not being beneath. But one branch of health
> science is for humans and another is for animals.
> Doctors in both fields are giving heartfelt
> warnings about the dangers of people consuming
> medication tested and formulated for animals.
> Animal dosages are far too high for humans,
> especially in meds intended for use for horses and
> cows. They are bigger, much bigger, weightier,
> than humans. There's a clue there with regards to
> safety in types and dosages of medications.

Yes everyone knows that. Ivermectin has been specifically prescribed for humans by human doctors for certain conditions over the years. It's a simple matter (in this case) of division. 1000 lb horse dosage divided by five (for example) gets you a dosage for a 200 lb human (standard exmo size)

But even if you get the dose right, there's still the question whether it works against COVID.

Besides the huge dose size issue that would need to be studied, we need to consider how the drug works at a molecular level. I looked up ivermectin (Sklice) in the PDR. This is the summary of how it kills parasites:

---
MECHANISM OF ACTION
Avermectins, including ivermectin, are broad-spectrum antiparasitic agents. They bind selectively and with high affinity to glutamate-gated chloride ion channels present in invertebrate nerve and muscle cells. This binding leads to an increase in the permeability of the cell membrane to chloride ions with hyperpolarization of the nerve or muscle cell, resulting in paralysis and death of the parasite. This class of compounds may also bind with other ligand-gated chloride channels, such as those gated by the neurotransmitter gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA). The avermectins' selectivity is due to the fact that some mammals do not have glutamate-gated chloride channels and that the avermectins have a low affinity for mammalian ligand-gated chloride channels. Ivermectin does not cross the blood-brain barrier in humans.

---

I do not know if the virus has anything similar to the type of parasitic cell membranes or ligand-gated chloride channels. I don't think it does. The virus obviously does not have muscle or nerve cells. I'd like to know what mechanism people are claiming at a molecular level that this drug deploys against the COVID virus. Drugs actually do things that need to be applicable to the target.

"Ivermectin binds to and destabilises the Impα/β1 heterodimer thereby preventing Impα/β1 from binding to the viral protein (bottom) and preventing it from entering the nucleus. This likely results in reduced inhibition of the antiviral responses, leading to a normal, more efficient antiviral response."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220302011

There is in vitro evidence tht Ivermectin can decrease replication of Covid-19, but...

https://ebm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/05/26/bmjebm-2021-111678

"An important controversial point to consider in any rationale is the 5 µM required concentration to reach the anti-SARS-CoV-2 action of ivermectin observed in vitro,17 which is much higher than 0.28 µM, the maximum reported plasma concentration achieved in vivo with a dose of approximately 1700 µg/kg (about nine times the FDA-approved dosification). In this sense, basic fundamentals for assessing ivermectin in COVID-19 at a clinical level appear to be insufficient. Among other reasons, we believe this might have led WHO to exclude ivermectin from its Solidarity Trial for repurposed drugs for COVID-19,12 which raises questions about the pertinence of conducting clinical studies on ivermectin."

And then:
"Concluding, research related to ivermectin in COVID-19 has serious methodological limitations resulting in very low certainty of the evidence, and continues to grow.37–39 The use of ivermectin, among others repurposed drugs for prophylaxis or treatment for COVID-19, should be done based on trustable evidence, without conflicts of interest, with proven safety and efficacy in patient-consented, ethically approved, randomised clinical trials."

Finally, the proper dose is not as simple as dividing the weight of a horse or cow by the weight of a human and decreasing the amount of the drug by that result.

Humans, cows, and horses may not have the same pharmacokinetics. The absorption, metabolism, and excretion may not be similar in humans and livestock which would affect the appropriate dosage.

anonyXmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes everyone knows that.

Apparently not.


>Ivermectin has been
> specifically prescribed for humans by human
> doctors for certain conditions over the years.
> It's a simple matter (in this case) of division.
> 1000 lb horse dosage divided by five (for example)
> gets you a dosage for a 200 lb human (standard
> exmo size)

It's simple if (1) a qualified MD prescribed it and (2) if the human takes it in the prescribed dosage

As for 1000 lbs divided by 5 etc, apparently some of those self-prescribing are about as good at math as I am. Which is not very. If they'd even know which numbers to divide.

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> It's simple if (1) a qualified MD prescribed it
> and (2) if the human takes it in the prescribed
> dosage
>

You forgot (3) that ivermectin is used for parasites and is not an anti-viral. Trying to use ivermectin to treat the coronavirus is about as effective and stupid as using a dog's worm medicine to treat smallpox.

Oh yeah. Good one.

That's where the science part comes in. :)

2020 Australian study titled, “The FDA-approved Drug Ivermectin inhibits the replication of SARS-CoV-2 in vitro,” which found the anti-parasitic drug “could impede the replication of the SARS-CoV-2 virus in a laboratory setting in under 48 hours,” according to TechTimes.com.

“The test conducted by the Australian researchers showed that even a single dose of the anti-parasitic drug was enough to significantly reduce viral RNA during the first 28 hours, then wiping out 99.8% by 48 hours,” reports Tech Times.

“On the third day, coronavirus was eliminated entirely.”

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220302011#!

Article is from last year.

Do you know the difference between "in vitro" and "in vivo?" Probably not.

Suffice it to say that if I added Campbell's Cream of Mushroom soup to an in vitro solution it would dramatically curtail the volume of RNA viruses. The problem is that the treatment would also kill the human.

Animal husbandry is far preferable to animal wifery.

(nod toward a certain S. Kimball, who inexplicably raised the subject of bestiality in Miracle of Forgiveness)

I think it a good bet that Kimball was a deeply damaged person.

If I worship Gary Larsen and "The Far Side" is my bible, can I be forgiven?

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/--i_UFe4lnOw/YFjSgext8PI/AAAAAAAABhM/uXWEUhi5z2gYfydsDOEEtats_FVHLxfoQCLcBGAsYHQ/s732/far%2Bside%2Bmock%2Bat%2Bevolution.jpg

You might want to talk to SC about that...

So Joe Rogan has it and OF COURSE has taken Ivermectin.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/01/media/joe-rogan-covid/index.html

While he isn't an "anti-vaxer" per se, he did tell his zillions of fans that if they are healthy, they probably don't need it. Encouraging everyone to be that damn selfish is disgusting.

A friend of mine rides dressage, and she is worried that supplies will be short for those who really need it -- the horses.

Is it true that those horses ridden in Cross-Dressage events are often the focus of rumormongering?

Ivermectin is reported tonight to now be sold out across B.C.!

People. Parasite medication is not effective for an infection caused by a virus.

Re the dosage, as we've already mentioned, horses and cattle need dosages of 60, 100, 200 (based on mL if given by injection and calculated per lb of body weight) while humans only require 3 or 6 mg, depending on an Rx prescribed by a human MD for a health condition that requires that medication for a specific problem (which is not COVID-19).

People are reportedly ingesting huge doses, which are toxic to humans and may be fatal. Why die for taking the wrong medication in the wrong dosage, an easily preventable situation - Just Say No!

I have to ask: If you're choosing horse medicine to treat a viral illness in a human who may or may not even have it, are you mentally capable of determining a safe dose?

I hope so but think not.

Stainless steel particles discovered in the vials.

" Moderna Inc and Takeda Pharmaceutical Co Ltd on Wednesday said they are working with Japanese authorities to recall three batches of COVID-19 vaccine after an investigation found stainless steel contaminants in some vials.

How vile!

"Abundance of caution" and all that, I'm sure.

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/japan-finds-stainless-steel-particles-suspended-doses-moderna-vaccine-2021-09-01/