After all, if Mormons believe that you get ancient Hebrew DNA after baptism, or that your eternal spirit is downloaded from Kolob into a "worthy" (i.e. "white and delightsome") infant human body, or that the spirits of "fence sitters" in The War In Heaven were downloaded into dark-skinned human bodies as "punishment," no matter if you agree or not, you should be able to get the concept of being given the wrong gendered human body.

anybody Wrote:
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> After all, if Mormons believe that you get ancient
> Hebrew DNA after baptism, or that your eternal
> spirit is downloaded from Kolob into a "worthy"
> (i.e. "white and delightsome") infant human body,
> or that the spirits of "fence sitters" in The War
> In Heaven were downloaded into dark-skinned human
> bodies as "punishment," no matter if you agree or
> not, you should be able to get the concept of
> being given the wrong gendered human body.

This makes a great deal of sense.

Thank you, anybody!

Hmmm. Good point.

The great block to understanding is their inability/reluctance to comprehend anything outside their experience, compounded by certainty there's only one proper way for things to be (which is their way, of course).

olderelder Wrote:
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> The great block to understanding is their
> inability/reluctance to comprehend anything
> outside their experience, compounded by certainty
> there's only one proper way for things to be
> (which is their way, of course).

Reminds me of a conversation I had with a co-worker who was adamant that racism did not exist. He was an upper middle class white guy, from a predominantly white neighborhood, whose parents paid for everything for him, college, first car, etc. He flat out stated "In my experience, racism doesn't exist". So I asked him if his experience encompassed all human experience. He gave me a blank look, so I said "You say you haven't experienced it, but other people say they have. Unless your experience encompasses the entirety of human experience, you have seen and experienced everything every thing there is to possibly see and experience, your stating in your experience there is no such thing as racism is a worthless statement. By your own admission, you haven't seen and experienced everything. Unless you have first hand knowledge of all experiences, your claim to have not seen it is in no way a refutation of people who say they have experienced it". He called me a "fucking libtard" and walked away.

Some people have zero ability to recognize the fact that there is a world, and countless different experiences, that exist outside of their own immediate bubble.

Interestingly there are many people who now accept that people can choose their gender, it's the accepted view of the progressives. But strangely even within that group (progressives) they can't quite agree on gender. I'm thinking of JK Rolling (the most beloved author of children's books of the 20th century) she becomes the villain because she said that being female isn't something people choose to be, your born in your body. Now she's hated.

On a positive note,.. It's an interesting world and the debate gives us all something to think about :)

macaRomney Wrote:
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> Interestingly there are many people who now accept
> that people can choose their gender, it's the
> accepted view of the progressives.

Is it? Provide examples or you are just jousting with imaginary friends again.

is that people were forever telling me God doesn't make mistakes so my "husband" couldn't possibly be gay. In the past few years, I've had 3 women who I know really well in this neighborhood (ward) tell me that it is a choice. I kept a journal of my experiences before I married him and after. Just an old blue notebook. I wrote in it that my logical brain told me that if he is gay, he can't just CHANGE to straight. It didn't make sense to me. If God doesn't make mistakes, then that makes him GAY. It is who he is. My biggest fear for him was society and the church. All I wanted was to know he was okay, that he'd be able to find someone to be with and live out his life happy. That obviously isn't what they told me. I just told my "friend" and I do consider him my friend, confused as hell about gays, what I needed from them all back 38+ years ago and they couldn't/wouldn't do that for me. I had to figure it out MYSELF. So much for their spirituality, discernment, speaking with God, blah blah blah.

IF my husband changed from gay to straight, he would no longer be the person he is. As angry as he has made me sometimes, it is not something I would want to happen.

I do worry about transgenders because I saw a piece by Leslie Stahl on 60 minutes. I worry they start them on drugs too soon or do sex change operations too soon. With gays, they are gay. No chemicals to stop puberty, etc. That scares me. But I accept that if there is a God, and I tend to wonder about that everyday, then he does make mistakes now, doesn't he!

And I'm so sick of seeing anything saying God answers prayers. Well, if there is a God, I guess he did answer my prayers in a roundabout way, but my prayer that he would be straight was never answered. So quit telling me about prayers being answered. I have deaf grandparents. I have a brother who is mentally and physically disabled, had a stroke at birth. The rest were human issues. Another brother had a stroke at age 42. I can't imagine the prayers my mother said in her life (her parents were the deaf ones and she was their voice as she was the oldest--she learned to sign before she learned to speak). Now tell me again, God doesn't make mistakes.

What makes you think that they don't?

>>After all, if Mormons believe that you get ancient Hebrew DNA after baptism, or that your eternal spirit is downloaded from Kolob into a "worthy" (i.e. "white and delightsome") infant human body, or that the spirits of "fence sitters" in The War In Heaven were downloaded into dark-skinned human bodies as "punishment," no matter if you agree or not, you should be able to get the concept of being given the wrong gendered human body.

All that stuff is on the church conveyer belt to go down the memory hole. The younger members probably never heard or got taught any of that crap. They don't care about problematic gibberish from the past, IMO.

But they SHOULD be able to understand multiple components that contribute to how a person identifies themselves in the spectrum of human sexuality. It's far more than just XX or XY. Anti-science and anti-education movements are partially fueled to keep the status quo for religious views. Religion always looks stupid when they have to keep burying what they taught with no accountability.

I think many Mormons get it. It is similar to Pre-1978 I think. There are the haters and the sympathetic Mormons. It is the same in my opinion to Mormonism's problem with homosexuality. There are Mormons who think it is a curse and others a special blessing. I know a couple of single gay/bisexual Mormons who will never stop believing and think that their sexuality is a trial that they need in their lives.

There is a huge generational gap in Mormonism that I see. Younger Mormons are accepting and older are intolerant by and large. But I haven't heard that the leaders are preaching intolerance from their bully pulpits as much of late.

>I know a couple of single gay/bisexual Mormons who will never stop believing and think that their sexuality is a trial that they need in their lives.

What a sad and unnecessary way to live!

dagny Wrote:
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>
> All that stuff is on the church conveyer belt to
> go down the memory hole. The younger members
> probably never heard or got taught any of that
> crap. They don't care about problematic gibberish
> from the past, IMO.
>

That's why there are no Mormon theologians.

The shell game can't work if someone tries to come up with a codified, logically consistent version of the "rules."

They just make them up as they go along.