Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
Canada has recently seen massive demonstrations against pandemic mandates, going on for 3+ weeks now.
Elements of this ongoing protest are political - please don't go there as we don't do politics on this site.
But some parallels strike me about people in general counting on sources that turn out to be unreliable, regarding anything.
Rumours and rumours of rumours circulate and in the case of the protests this is a time to be vigilant about checking one's sources when hearing something disturbing or unsettling. It may well turn out to be an account that is exaggerated or even false or perhaps just mistaken.
For instance: The NYT recently published stories that an elderly woman had been trampled by a police horse and had subsequently died. Not true. It also reported that there were mass arrests at gunpoint. Did not occur. The most "force" displayed to date by police is today when the batons came out, used to push crowds away from the congested downtown area, around and about Parliament Hill, that demonstrators had brought to a standstill for three weeks. Also contrary to reports, no tear gas was used against protestors (they did use pepper spray if people didn't move back via lawful orders by police). And nobody was shot, again contrary to some reports.
Inaccurate and misleading information doesn't help anybody in any situation.
Listening to the national news tonight the thought reverberated in my head that it's crucial to always check one's sources. I thought about how important that would have been for me when my friend started telling me about his Mormon church. After my extremely negative experience with JWs you'd think I'd run a mile when bumping into yet another offshoot religion that is predicated on 'special' secrets given directly by God to only one man. Of course it should have sounded familiar to me, therefore alerting my spidey sense, yet instead, being familiar drew me in more easily than otherwise. Not for the first time by any means I should have known that when invited to a church away from the mainstream the correct answer is thank you but NO THANKS. At least for me.
My mistake there was accepting the source, my friend, at face value, rather than doing my own research from trustworthy sources. Just as had happened with the JWs.
My other big mistake was accepting from go that the BoM was a book of potential value and trustworthiness - I have no idea why I did that. Rather, I should have asked IF. If it could be possible. IF, in fact, it was trustworthy. JWs have their own "translation" (New World Translation) but at least it's based more on the KJV of the Bible than is the BoM. And it's the Bible, not a whole different book. Instead, I accepted that the BoM is a companion, so to speak, of the Bible. My biggest two errors were accepting without verification that (1) the BoM is a mate to the Bible and (2) the Mormon Church relies on the Bible in at least equal measure as the BoM. I assumed that all the familiar biblical teachings were accepted and practised and the BoM et al was extra over and above.
My next biggest mistake was in going with a friend to church. Again. I just haven't had much success with that in the past, even over and above the whole JW debacle and subsequently the almost equally painful Mormon thing.
At least now (better late than never?) I know enough to check sources, especially if something sounds unbelievable to me. Unbelievable at this point includes anything offshoot, too good to believe, too bad to believe or otherwise questionable. At least it's worth making the effort to verify "facts".
Good thing Google is around or I'd be wearing out my feet traipsing to the library checking encyclopedias. The old-fashioned way of learning. :)
Of course, it's equally crucial to check whatever so-called info Google throws up. Who wrote it. Who said what. When did they say it? And why?
Always ask why.
Why would God entrust His entire plan for the universe and all the silly humans to that unschooled farm boy, for instance? :)
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2022 02:26AM by Nightingale.
Elements of this ongoing protest are political - please don't go there as we don't do politics on this site.
But some parallels strike me about people in general counting on sources that turn out to be unreliable, regarding anything.
Rumours and rumours of rumours circulate and in the case of the protests this is a time to be vigilant about checking one's sources when hearing something disturbing or unsettling. It may well turn out to be an account that is exaggerated or even false or perhaps just mistaken.
For instance: The NYT recently published stories that an elderly woman had been trampled by a police horse and had subsequently died. Not true. It also reported that there were mass arrests at gunpoint. Did not occur. The most "force" displayed to date by police is today when the batons came out, used to push crowds away from the congested downtown area, around and about Parliament Hill, that demonstrators had brought to a standstill for three weeks. Also contrary to reports, no tear gas was used against protestors (they did use pepper spray if people didn't move back via lawful orders by police). And nobody was shot, again contrary to some reports.
Inaccurate and misleading information doesn't help anybody in any situation.
Listening to the national news tonight the thought reverberated in my head that it's crucial to always check one's sources. I thought about how important that would have been for me when my friend started telling me about his Mormon church. After my extremely negative experience with JWs you'd think I'd run a mile when bumping into yet another offshoot religion that is predicated on 'special' secrets given directly by God to only one man. Of course it should have sounded familiar to me, therefore alerting my spidey sense, yet instead, being familiar drew me in more easily than otherwise. Not for the first time by any means I should have known that when invited to a church away from the mainstream the correct answer is thank you but NO THANKS. At least for me.
My mistake there was accepting the source, my friend, at face value, rather than doing my own research from trustworthy sources. Just as had happened with the JWs.
My other big mistake was accepting from go that the BoM was a book of potential value and trustworthiness - I have no idea why I did that. Rather, I should have asked IF. If it could be possible. IF, in fact, it was trustworthy. JWs have their own "translation" (New World Translation) but at least it's based more on the KJV of the Bible than is the BoM. And it's the Bible, not a whole different book. Instead, I accepted that the BoM is a companion, so to speak, of the Bible. My biggest two errors were accepting without verification that (1) the BoM is a mate to the Bible and (2) the Mormon Church relies on the Bible in at least equal measure as the BoM. I assumed that all the familiar biblical teachings were accepted and practised and the BoM et al was extra over and above.
My next biggest mistake was in going with a friend to church. Again. I just haven't had much success with that in the past, even over and above the whole JW debacle and subsequently the almost equally painful Mormon thing.
At least now (better late than never?) I know enough to check sources, especially if something sounds unbelievable to me. Unbelievable at this point includes anything offshoot, too good to believe, too bad to believe or otherwise questionable. At least it's worth making the effort to verify "facts".
Good thing Google is around or I'd be wearing out my feet traipsing to the library checking encyclopedias. The old-fashioned way of learning. :)
Of course, it's equally crucial to check whatever so-called info Google throws up. Who wrote it. Who said what. When did they say it? And why?
Always ask why.
Why would God entrust His entire plan for the universe and all the silly humans to that unschooled farm boy, for instance? :)
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2022 02:26AM by Nightingale.
Excellent!
"Why would God entrust His entire plan for the universe and all the silly humans to that unschooled farm boy, for instance?"
It does seem somewhat classist. Joseph became the know-it-all who didn't need to study. God told him directly, often in conjunction with his unusually strong libido.
It does seem somewhat classist. Joseph became the know-it-all who didn't need to study. God told him directly, often in conjunction with his unusually strong libido.
Nightingale, I think you fell into both the JWs and subsequently Mormonism because you are a sincere person who believes the best of others. While many people are trustworthy, there are also those who would take advantage of you without a second thought. And there are also those sincere people who have themselves been fooled by the scammers.
I spent a lot of my life being a little too trusting, so now I am more likely to look at people's motivations when I am in doubt.
I spent a lot of my life being a little too trusting, so now I am more likely to look at people's motivations when I am in doubt.
Summer wrote in part:
"I spent a lot of my life being a little too trusting, so now I am more likely to look at people's motivations when I am in doubt."
Since human beings have no way of reading the minds of other human beings, we can only (and often do) guess at the motivation of others. What we can do, however, is observe the behaviors of others, and, if we don't like the behaviors being engaged in, we can (usually) disassociate ourselves from those others.
"I spent a lot of my life being a little too trusting, so now I am more likely to look at people's motivations when I am in doubt."
Since human beings have no way of reading the minds of other human beings, we can only (and often do) guess at the motivation of others. What we can do, however, is observe the behaviors of others, and, if we don't like the behaviors being engaged in, we can (usually) disassociate ourselves from those others.
A lot of times, it's not hard to guess. It just requires a bit of healthy cynicism.
I'll give you an example. School systems often appeal to teachers with the saying, "It's for the children" when they want more free labor out of teachers (many of whom already "donate" a dozen or two dozen hours of uncompensated overtime per week as it is.) Yes, we all want to help the kids, but we shouldn't have to sacrifice every waking hour to do so.
I'll give you an example. School systems often appeal to teachers with the saying, "It's for the children" when they want more free labor out of teachers (many of whom already "donate" a dozen or two dozen hours of uncompensated overtime per week as it is.) Yes, we all want to help the kids, but we shouldn't have to sacrifice every waking hour to do so.
I think watching the mormons in my life turned me into a child cynic. The lies and hypocrisy made a big impact on my little pea brain. I learned early not to trust. Look for the angle. Who profits. Profit isn't just money.
Adults don't pay attention to quiet children and they will say the most amazing things in front of them.
Adults don't pay attention to quiet children and they will say the most amazing things in front of them.
A most excellent analysis, Nightingale.
And a very well-written post.
Kudos.
And a very well-written post.
Kudos.
+1
If you were Soft Machine, you'd have written "+100." I'm not sure why there's the difference but perhaps Paris is experiencing more inflation than the US.
I very much echo those who say this is a great post. Unfortunately, our fellow humans cannot always be trusted, and we need to learn to both observe and research before we make any big commitments.
I just figure everybody’s a cheerful liar.
Thank you all. I appreciate your comments very much.
Clarification: Re the woman and the police horse. A female protestor is claiming that she was injured by a police horse as the mounted police officers were moving the crowd back. The incident is under review. What is false, as I stated above, is that a person was killed by a horse in the police action. She didn't die and doesn't seem likely to. If she was injured by the animal that is unfortunate, of course. It would not have been on purpose. That is for sure. Another consideration is that it is an offence to harm a police service animal. I'm not saying she tried to do so. It's just that when you're in the middle of a mob and not following stern orders by police who are trying to quell a fraught situation you're putting your own self in potential jeopardy. I do hope, though, of course, that she will recover without lasting harm.
Clarification: Re the woman and the police horse. A female protestor is claiming that she was injured by a police horse as the mounted police officers were moving the crowd back. The incident is under review. What is false, as I stated above, is that a person was killed by a horse in the police action. She didn't die and doesn't seem likely to. If she was injured by the animal that is unfortunate, of course. It would not have been on purpose. That is for sure. Another consideration is that it is an offence to harm a police service animal. I'm not saying she tried to do so. It's just that when you're in the middle of a mob and not following stern orders by police who are trying to quell a fraught situation you're putting your own self in potential jeopardy. I do hope, though, of course, that she will recover without lasting harm.
I heard that they were going to take their pets away first. Later I heard they were going to euthanize any pets.
I'd like to hear that they didn't euthanize them.
I'd like to hear that they didn't euthanize them.
No worries, cl2. Not euthanize, as far as I've heard. Not even under emergency powers, I wouldn't think. Worst case they'd be placed up for adoption if pet owners couldn't look after them.
Here's an article from an Ottawa newspaper - the only one I trust at the moment to be accurate on this. All the other articles that pop up on a search are coming from sources I wouldn't automatically trust:
https://ottawa.citynews.ca/local-news/pets-brought-to-convoy-demonstration-by-protesters-could-be-placed-in-protective-care-5074505
"Truck convoy demonstrators who brought their pets along for the ride are being warned that their animal may be placed into protective care for a period of time if they are unable to care for them when police action takes place.
"In a tweet issued on Thursday, February 17, Ottawa by-law said pets will be placed into protective care for eight days, at the cost of the owner.
"If you are unable to care of your animal as a result of enforcement actions, your animal will be placed in protective custody for [eight] days, at your cost," the tweet reads.
"After [eight] days, if arrangements are not made, your animal will be considered relinquished."
A similar warning has been given about children that parents are unable to care for if they are in jail, for instance. Not that they would be "relinquished" but that they would be placed into care if parents were not available.
Here's an article from an Ottawa newspaper - the only one I trust at the moment to be accurate on this. All the other articles that pop up on a search are coming from sources I wouldn't automatically trust:
https://ottawa.citynews.ca/local-news/pets-brought-to-convoy-demonstration-by-protesters-could-be-placed-in-protective-care-5074505
"Truck convoy demonstrators who brought their pets along for the ride are being warned that their animal may be placed into protective care for a period of time if they are unable to care for them when police action takes place.
"In a tweet issued on Thursday, February 17, Ottawa by-law said pets will be placed into protective care for eight days, at the cost of the owner.
"If you are unable to care of your animal as a result of enforcement actions, your animal will be placed in protective custody for [eight] days, at your cost," the tweet reads.
"After [eight] days, if arrangements are not made, your animal will be considered relinquished."
A similar warning has been given about children that parents are unable to care for if they are in jail, for instance. Not that they would be "relinquished" but that they would be placed into care if parents were not available.
Take my kid but don't touch my dog. Well, I would never put my dog in that kind of an environment in the first place. I bought myself a cute shirt -
Roses are Red
Violets are Blue
I love my dog, more than you.
Hubs said he already knew that lol :)
Roses are Red
Violets are Blue
I love my dog, more than you.
Hubs said he already knew that lol :)
Can't really find anything on google that helped me find out. I thought that surely there would be Canadians who would come and help with the dogs if they just asked. I would hope there would be an uprising if the euthanized the animals.
I agree, Susan, my dogs wouldn't be in a situation like that. I actually rescued them as someone left them at the side of the road and a sheriff found them, gave them to a local rescue.
I believe it was you, Susan, who asked once if our kids would be upset if they knew you love the dog as much as them, and I said, "They expect it." Our dogs have saved us during the bad years we went through. Losing our first one 9 months after he left nearly killed me. My son, who was 10 and now 36, says it was the worst day of his life. My daughter swore she couldn't get a dog of her own after she married and I get to tend her little Shuh Tzu all the time. She's had 3 miscarriages and this dog is their BABY BIG TIME.
I agree, Susan, my dogs wouldn't be in a situation like that. I actually rescued them as someone left them at the side of the road and a sheriff found them, gave them to a local rescue.
I believe it was you, Susan, who asked once if our kids would be upset if they knew you love the dog as much as them, and I said, "They expect it." Our dogs have saved us during the bad years we went through. Losing our first one 9 months after he left nearly killed me. My son, who was 10 and now 36, says it was the worst day of his life. My daughter swore she couldn't get a dog of her own after she married and I get to tend her little Shuh Tzu all the time. She's had 3 miscarriages and this dog is their BABY BIG TIME.
It's not that we like the dogs better than our kids, it's more like they like the dogs better than they like us.
I sent my son a pic of my fortune cookie that said our upcoming trip (to Utah) would be a success. He returned the photo where the fortune said, "If you bring Lumpy."
He met us at our hotel, took Lumpy and left.
I sent my son a pic of my fortune cookie that said our upcoming trip (to Utah) would be a success. He returned the photo where the fortune said, "If you bring Lumpy."
He met us at our hotel, took Lumpy and left.
One thing that has come out of the splitting of our country into highly opinionated factions is that belief (you are believing what someone tells you unless you saw it yourself) is a matter of one’s own analysis (or lack thereof) of evidence presented.
Much of the divisiveness in our country seems to be a result of “research” which consists of searching for information that confirms one’s opinion. There seems to be little appetite for seeking out opposing information and seriously considering it’s basis of existence.
Clearly, the TBM spends little, if any, time hunting down information that could erode their foundational beliefs. The small amount who actually consider another viewpoint find that their previously held sense of truth was built on information from trusted sources, but in fact were lies to recruit a faithful following that provided wealth to the group promoting those lies.
When they find they were duped, they tend to shift to another set of ‘beliefs’ as far removed from their previously held ‘truths’.
And here we are, with a new view of “truth”.
Much of the divisiveness in our country seems to be a result of “research” which consists of searching for information that confirms one’s opinion. There seems to be little appetite for seeking out opposing information and seriously considering it’s basis of existence.
Clearly, the TBM spends little, if any, time hunting down information that could erode their foundational beliefs. The small amount who actually consider another viewpoint find that their previously held sense of truth was built on information from trusted sources, but in fact were lies to recruit a faithful following that provided wealth to the group promoting those lies.
When they find they were duped, they tend to shift to another set of ‘beliefs’ as far removed from their previously held ‘truths’.
And here we are, with a new view of “truth”.
Pffft. The protests collapsed when DJs showed up and people started dancing. The Mennos (aka Mennonites) were having none of that, and went home.
<tongue-in-cheek. Mostly>
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2022 04:50PM by Brother Of Jerry.
<tongue-in-cheek. Mostly>
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2022 04:50PM by Brother Of Jerry.
I saw a video of the woman being knocked down and trampled, IMHO it looked very intentional. I'm glad she lived, she wasn't being aggressive or threatening in any way.
I haven't seen it yet. I'll look for it.
I can't believe an officer would intentionally do something so stupid and unnecessary. For one thing, s/he would know there are a million cameras out there taping every move. For another, no matter what a person is doing there is a limit to how an officer can legally react.
I know - that's in a perfect world.
I'm not going to blame either party until I get more info.
It's been a very difficult situation all 'round. True enough, some people did get caught up in events they weren't expecting. Others apparently engineered outcomes they were hoping for.
I'll have to wait for all the reports to filter through.
I too hope the woman will be okay. That had to be a scary experience.
There will definitely be a whole lot of postmortems on this entire demonstration, who did what, when, how and why, on all sides.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2022 11:47PM by Nightingale.
I can't believe an officer would intentionally do something so stupid and unnecessary. For one thing, s/he would know there are a million cameras out there taping every move. For another, no matter what a person is doing there is a limit to how an officer can legally react.
I know - that's in a perfect world.
I'm not going to blame either party until I get more info.
It's been a very difficult situation all 'round. True enough, some people did get caught up in events they weren't expecting. Others apparently engineered outcomes they were hoping for.
I'll have to wait for all the reports to filter through.
I too hope the woman will be okay. That had to be a scary experience.
There will definitely be a whole lot of postmortems on this entire demonstration, who did what, when, how and why, on all sides.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2022 11:47PM by Nightingale.
Mohawk elder. Grandmother.
Law enforcement does not roll out the cavalry to play nice. Get in their way and you see what happens.
Blogger had thousands of dollars of camera equipment confiscated for taking video of police actions.
Police not wearing body cameras.
Video still coming out anyway.
Romanian immigrant from days of Ceaușescu said "I will step out of the truck, kneel and put my hands behind my head." He does so and then starts taking knees from at least three LEOs. He was an old guy.
Other videos of same type treatment. One was dragged between two trucks before taking knees from LEO.
You need to look deeper.
Law enforcement does not roll out the cavalry to play nice. Get in their way and you see what happens.
Blogger had thousands of dollars of camera equipment confiscated for taking video of police actions.
Police not wearing body cameras.
Video still coming out anyway.
Romanian immigrant from days of Ceaușescu said "I will step out of the truck, kneel and put my hands behind my head." He does so and then starts taking knees from at least three LEOs. He was an old guy.
Other videos of same type treatment. One was dragged between two trucks before taking knees from LEO.
You need to look deeper.
Jumpin' Javelina Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Law enforcement does not roll out the cavalry to
> play nice. Get in their way and you see what
> happens.
Exactly. It makes no sense to get up in the faces of officers in riot gear and their huge marching horses.
> Blogger had thousands of dollars of camera
> equipment confiscated for taking video of police
> actions.
> Police not wearing body cameras.
I have looked all over and have not found a reputable news source that confirms these allegations.
> Romanian immigrant from days of Ceaușescu said "I
> will step out of the truck, kneel and put my hands
> behind my head." He does so and then starts taking
> knees from at least three LEOs. He was an old
> guy.
> Other videos of same type treatment. One was
> dragged between two trucks before taking knees
> from LEO.
Same comment as above. Where are you obtaining this information?
> You need to look deeper.
Yes. Always a good approach. Here is the information I see across several established reputable sources:
The CBC describes a timeline of events:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/timeline-how-police-took-back-ottawa-streets-from-protesters-1.6358994
Excerpts:
“Friday: Throughout the afternoon, witnesses say the atmosphere is tense, demonstrators are loud and animated. A wall of officers slowly moves in, pushing the crowd. Physical contact with officers leads to some arrests.
“Late in the afternoon, mounted police on Rideau Street near the Château Laurier attempt to create space between protesters and officers, according to police.
“As police continue to dismantle the convoy protest in Ottawa, mounted officers are seen riding through the crowd to push protesters backwards and away from a line of police.
“In the pushing and shoving, people are knocked down by horses, including a woman with a walker, who is reportedly injured. This incident is now being investigated by the police oversight by the police oversight body called the Special Investigations Unit.
“Social media and U.S. media outlets spread rumours the woman was trampled and killed. This is later confirmed to be untrue.
“Saturday: On Saturday morning shortly after 9 a.m, police wearing helmets and armed with batons pour out of the Château Laurier, moving quickly along Wellington Street, pressing protesters west past Elgin Street. Police clear out protesters gathered around the National War Memorial.
“At Metcalfe Street, right in front of the gates of Parliament Hill, there's a melee as police say protesters throw a gas canister.
“Police use "a device" to create a loud bang during their advance and report one protester had also "launched a gas canister" at officers.
“Officers, including those on horseback, push the protesters from the west end of Wellington Street, making more arrests.
“Some of the people arrested are in "body armour" and have smoke grenades and fireworks in their bags, according to police.
“By noon, all protesters have been corralled onto O'Connor Street, near Sparks Street. Police say protesters become "assaultive" and officers use pepper spray.
“Ottawa police also appeal to people to stop flooding its 911 line as a means to "express displeasure about the police action."
“A statement from the so-called "Freedom Convoy," one of the main organizing groups, calls out what it describes as police brutality. Social media posts allege police are using excessive force during arrests."
Ottawa Police (Tweet): “Protesters were assaulting officers with weapons warranting the deployment of mid range impact weapons (ARWEN) to stop the violent actions of the protesters.” [An investigation is automatically launched by oversight board when police deploy these weapons].
-----
I have seen mounted police (RCMP) in person. You just don't get up close and personal to those huge animals (their horses). They need room to move. Be kind to animals.
Same with troops of officers in protective gear, holding batons, moving slowly towards unlawful crowds, pushing them back away from areas they are not lawfully allowed to occupy. Yes, there is video of some frontline officers rapping demonstrators stubbornly refusing to move, getting up in their faces. What would you expect when one force is moving forward (slowly) and has the legal right to clear the decks. If you refuse to move you risk suffering negative consequences. They gave crowds prior warning to disperse. They moved slowly and used the batons to push back refuseniks who were blocking the forward progress of the police line. They didn't start by using their batons to whack people, just push them back after giving them a chance to disperse voluntarily.
That is what I saw on live news coverage and it was confirmed by various TV and written media sources.
In a melee, true enough bad stuff can happen. Get too close to the huge horses, you may be injured (not on purpose). You can read in the linked article (and many others) that the reports of an elderly female demonstrator being killed were incorrect. It sounds as though she was injured. You'll note that any time a civilian is injured by a police officer or police animal an inquiry is automatically launched, as it has been done in these cases. There is oversight. If an officer has acted against approved procedure or has committed an offence they will be disciplined.
Here's another article discussing the accusations of police brutality:
https://calgarysun.com/opinion/columnists/leong-widespread-police-brutality-at-ottawa-occupation-hardly
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2022 01:40PM by Nightingale.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Law enforcement does not roll out the cavalry to
> play nice. Get in their way and you see what
> happens.
Exactly. It makes no sense to get up in the faces of officers in riot gear and their huge marching horses.
> Blogger had thousands of dollars of camera
> equipment confiscated for taking video of police
> actions.
> Police not wearing body cameras.
I have looked all over and have not found a reputable news source that confirms these allegations.
> Romanian immigrant from days of Ceaușescu said "I
> will step out of the truck, kneel and put my hands
> behind my head." He does so and then starts taking
> knees from at least three LEOs. He was an old
> guy.
> Other videos of same type treatment. One was
> dragged between two trucks before taking knees
> from LEO.
Same comment as above. Where are you obtaining this information?
> You need to look deeper.
Yes. Always a good approach. Here is the information I see across several established reputable sources:
The CBC describes a timeline of events:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/timeline-how-police-took-back-ottawa-streets-from-protesters-1.6358994
Excerpts:
“Friday: Throughout the afternoon, witnesses say the atmosphere is tense, demonstrators are loud and animated. A wall of officers slowly moves in, pushing the crowd. Physical contact with officers leads to some arrests.
“Late in the afternoon, mounted police on Rideau Street near the Château Laurier attempt to create space between protesters and officers, according to police.
“As police continue to dismantle the convoy protest in Ottawa, mounted officers are seen riding through the crowd to push protesters backwards and away from a line of police.
“In the pushing and shoving, people are knocked down by horses, including a woman with a walker, who is reportedly injured. This incident is now being investigated by the police oversight by the police oversight body called the Special Investigations Unit.
“Social media and U.S. media outlets spread rumours the woman was trampled and killed. This is later confirmed to be untrue.
“Saturday: On Saturday morning shortly after 9 a.m, police wearing helmets and armed with batons pour out of the Château Laurier, moving quickly along Wellington Street, pressing protesters west past Elgin Street. Police clear out protesters gathered around the National War Memorial.
“At Metcalfe Street, right in front of the gates of Parliament Hill, there's a melee as police say protesters throw a gas canister.
“Police use "a device" to create a loud bang during their advance and report one protester had also "launched a gas canister" at officers.
“Officers, including those on horseback, push the protesters from the west end of Wellington Street, making more arrests.
“Some of the people arrested are in "body armour" and have smoke grenades and fireworks in their bags, according to police.
“By noon, all protesters have been corralled onto O'Connor Street, near Sparks Street. Police say protesters become "assaultive" and officers use pepper spray.
“Ottawa police also appeal to people to stop flooding its 911 line as a means to "express displeasure about the police action."
“A statement from the so-called "Freedom Convoy," one of the main organizing groups, calls out what it describes as police brutality. Social media posts allege police are using excessive force during arrests."
Ottawa Police (Tweet): “Protesters were assaulting officers with weapons warranting the deployment of mid range impact weapons (ARWEN) to stop the violent actions of the protesters.” [An investigation is automatically launched by oversight board when police deploy these weapons].
-----
I have seen mounted police (RCMP) in person. You just don't get up close and personal to those huge animals (their horses). They need room to move. Be kind to animals.
Same with troops of officers in protective gear, holding batons, moving slowly towards unlawful crowds, pushing them back away from areas they are not lawfully allowed to occupy. Yes, there is video of some frontline officers rapping demonstrators stubbornly refusing to move, getting up in their faces. What would you expect when one force is moving forward (slowly) and has the legal right to clear the decks. If you refuse to move you risk suffering negative consequences. They gave crowds prior warning to disperse. They moved slowly and used the batons to push back refuseniks who were blocking the forward progress of the police line. They didn't start by using their batons to whack people, just push them back after giving them a chance to disperse voluntarily.
That is what I saw on live news coverage and it was confirmed by various TV and written media sources.
In a melee, true enough bad stuff can happen. Get too close to the huge horses, you may be injured (not on purpose). You can read in the linked article (and many others) that the reports of an elderly female demonstrator being killed were incorrect. It sounds as though she was injured. You'll note that any time a civilian is injured by a police officer or police animal an inquiry is automatically launched, as it has been done in these cases. There is oversight. If an officer has acted against approved procedure or has committed an offence they will be disciplined.
Here's another article discussing the accusations of police brutality:
https://calgarysun.com/opinion/columnists/leong-widespread-police-brutality-at-ottawa-occupation-hardly
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2022 01:40PM by Nightingale.
Good job sourcing NG.
IMHO it is rather irresponsible for an elderly person with mobility issues to put themselves in the middle of something like that. No big shock that it wasn't a good idea. I was raised with horses so I am not afraid of them but I have a healthy respect. And RCMP horses are BIG.
IMHO it is rather irresponsible for an elderly person with mobility issues to put themselves in the middle of something like that. No big shock that it wasn't a good idea. I was raised with horses so I am not afraid of them but I have a healthy respect. And RCMP horses are BIG.
Thanks, Sus. I try not to form an opinion before checking several sources that I know are at least reasonably trustworthy. (Would that I had held to that standard before jumping into the Mormon font - twice. Sheesh).
Disclosure: I have been a volunteer for two city police departments and spent a lot of time with the dog unit at one of them. I have enormous respect and admiration for the animals and their handlers. The training process is incredible and the abilities of the dogs are almost spooky - so skilled and intuitive and trainable. The science of dogs (including how they can discover bodies) is beyond fascinating. The officers I've known are well trained, multi-skilled, dedicated and they strive to perform their job with excellence.
Therefore, I have a generally positive impression and good feelings about people in that line of work, at least in my neck of the woods. However, I know that s*** happens. Unfortunately.
As for the elderly lady, I am sorry she was injured. I too wondered about the wisdom of being part of a restless jostling crowd that heads into lines of armed officers on huge beasts, especially as she apparently uses a walker for mobility. She is bound to be vulnerable and likely slow-moving. I would find it nearly impossible to believe that a Canadian police officer would knock her down with his service animal on purpose. I would need to see confirmation from a trustworthy source or three. I also think that the police oversight bodies would weigh in and determine what happened. There is absolutely no shortage of available reliable video they could use to see every angle to uncover the truth of the situation.
I saw the RCMP Musical Ride one year. I've visited the horses in their stables. Yes. Big. Huge. Amazing. Beautiful. Skilled. Well trained. Impressive. And lovely.
But I wouldn't take one on. They outweigh me. :)
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2022 02:16PM by Nightingale.
Disclosure: I have been a volunteer for two city police departments and spent a lot of time with the dog unit at one of them. I have enormous respect and admiration for the animals and their handlers. The training process is incredible and the abilities of the dogs are almost spooky - so skilled and intuitive and trainable. The science of dogs (including how they can discover bodies) is beyond fascinating. The officers I've known are well trained, multi-skilled, dedicated and they strive to perform their job with excellence.
Therefore, I have a generally positive impression and good feelings about people in that line of work, at least in my neck of the woods. However, I know that s*** happens. Unfortunately.
As for the elderly lady, I am sorry she was injured. I too wondered about the wisdom of being part of a restless jostling crowd that heads into lines of armed officers on huge beasts, especially as she apparently uses a walker for mobility. She is bound to be vulnerable and likely slow-moving. I would find it nearly impossible to believe that a Canadian police officer would knock her down with his service animal on purpose. I would need to see confirmation from a trustworthy source or three. I also think that the police oversight bodies would weigh in and determine what happened. There is absolutely no shortage of available reliable video they could use to see every angle to uncover the truth of the situation.
I saw the RCMP Musical Ride one year. I've visited the horses in their stables. Yes. Big. Huge. Amazing. Beautiful. Skilled. Well trained. Impressive. And lovely.
But I wouldn't take one on. They outweigh me. :)
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2022 02:16PM by Nightingale.
On that first Saturday the convoy was heading down highway #4 for the Coutts, Alberta border crossing I was going into town and my entrance to that highway was blocked by cheering, flag waving convoy supporters. So they were interfering with my freedoms. I waz able to detour and take another route to get on the highway. When the hoard got to Coutts they formed their illegal blockade and for several days the citizens of Coutts could not leave the village to go to the nearby town to buy food. More "freedoms" usurped. When the mayor of the village dared to complain that the village was being held hostage protesters marched to his home and confronted him. NOT peaceful.
I don't have any sympathy for anyone who participated in the various blockades and then got injured when the police broke them up.
FYI the "gang of 4" who were arrested for bringing firearms, ammo (a lot) and body armor into the Coutts blockade were mostly Mormons from the local Moridor. People I've talked to who know them or know of them day they believe the conspiracy theories and pseudo science that is rampant in the anti vax anti government community.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2022 03:31PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.
I don't have any sympathy for anyone who participated in the various blockades and then got injured when the police broke them up.
FYI the "gang of 4" who were arrested for bringing firearms, ammo (a lot) and body armor into the Coutts blockade were mostly Mormons from the local Moridor. People I've talked to who know them or know of them day they believe the conspiracy theories and pseudo science that is rampant in the anti vax anti government community.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2022 03:31PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.
Lethbridge Reprobate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So they were interfering with
> my freedoms.
> for several days the citizens of Coutts could not
> leave the village to go to the nearby town to buy
> food. More "freedoms" usurped.
Good point. Freedom works all ways. What about families in Ottawa's residential areas (right beside the Parliament buildings) who had to put up with blasting truck horns for 3 wks, so loud they're deafening and prevented parents and children from sound sleep night after night after night? There were reports of adverse effects to people's mental health from all the noise as well as crowds around and about their homes. At least one child, who has medical issues, was reported to be seriously negatively impacted as the noise led her to self-harm (iirc; so sorry if not). What about the people who couldn't physically get out to go to work and the businesses on the most affected streets having to close because customers couldn't traverse the area, or didn't want to expose themselves to potential harm. We celebrate our free country but that freedom doesn't extend absolutely so that you are "free" to desecrate national monuments, especially the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Nor are you free to ignore police instructions to clear an area for safety or to obstruct them while performing their duties.
I didn't hear as much about the Alberta protests as those in Ontario, other than what was happening at the borders.
And I sure heard the convoy going past my house a few times, heading for the border nearby. I couldn't stand that noise for 5 minutes. If it went on for 3 weeks I would have had to relocate. My sensitive ears couldn't take it. So there goes my freedom not to be assaulted by the intrusive cacophony of thoughtless protestors intent on blocking international travel and trade.
I worried that some perilous contagion had descended upon us. I guess in reality the groundwork had already been implemented, waiting to be uncovered and put into motion.
> ... confronted him. NOT peaceful.
Yeah. No matter how many times they repeated the phrase "peaceful protest" that didn't always reflect the reality on the ground.
> I don't have any sympathy for anyone who
> participated in the various blockades and then got
> injured when the police broke them up.
I heard and read that there were ample warnings, days ahead, that according to LAW the protestors should disperse. There were warnings broadcast through every available avenue that at such and such a location, at a specified time, police would arrive to disperse recalcitrant protestors by all means needed. Nobody was tear-gassed, as they claimed. Pepper spray was used, however, as deemed necessary to clear the area, which was the objective the government and police had publicized well ahead of the time they finally moved in.
It's not that authorities were denying their right to protest but rather the issues were where the protestors were located (on residential streets, creating noise, mess, confusion and obstruction) and the exceptionally negative impact they were visiting upon residents, workers, govt employees, police and govt members and leaders. You can't obstruct traffic, blockade international borders, ignore lawful orders of govt and police. That's not protest, it's civil unrest. Of course, a government cannot ignore that, nor do a majority of citizens want them to.
> FYI the "gang of 4" who were arrested for bringing
> firearms, ammo (a lot) and body armor into the
> Coutts blockade were mostly Mormons from the local
> Moridor. People I've talked to who know them or
> know of them day they believe the conspiracy
> theories and pseudo science that is rampant in the
> anti vax anti government community.
This shocks me. I hadn't heard of it. Wow.
Silly question I guess but aren't Mormons expected by their church to be obedient to the govt and law (unless the leaders instruct otherwise, as in the outlier case of Jeffs etc)?
Pseudo science has a lot to answer for, undoubtedly.
-------------------------------------------------------
> So they were interfering with
> my freedoms.
> for several days the citizens of Coutts could not
> leave the village to go to the nearby town to buy
> food. More "freedoms" usurped.
Good point. Freedom works all ways. What about families in Ottawa's residential areas (right beside the Parliament buildings) who had to put up with blasting truck horns for 3 wks, so loud they're deafening and prevented parents and children from sound sleep night after night after night? There were reports of adverse effects to people's mental health from all the noise as well as crowds around and about their homes. At least one child, who has medical issues, was reported to be seriously negatively impacted as the noise led her to self-harm (iirc; so sorry if not). What about the people who couldn't physically get out to go to work and the businesses on the most affected streets having to close because customers couldn't traverse the area, or didn't want to expose themselves to potential harm. We celebrate our free country but that freedom doesn't extend absolutely so that you are "free" to desecrate national monuments, especially the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Nor are you free to ignore police instructions to clear an area for safety or to obstruct them while performing their duties.
I didn't hear as much about the Alberta protests as those in Ontario, other than what was happening at the borders.
And I sure heard the convoy going past my house a few times, heading for the border nearby. I couldn't stand that noise for 5 minutes. If it went on for 3 weeks I would have had to relocate. My sensitive ears couldn't take it. So there goes my freedom not to be assaulted by the intrusive cacophony of thoughtless protestors intent on blocking international travel and trade.
I worried that some perilous contagion had descended upon us. I guess in reality the groundwork had already been implemented, waiting to be uncovered and put into motion.
> ... confronted him. NOT peaceful.
Yeah. No matter how many times they repeated the phrase "peaceful protest" that didn't always reflect the reality on the ground.
> I don't have any sympathy for anyone who
> participated in the various blockades and then got
> injured when the police broke them up.
I heard and read that there were ample warnings, days ahead, that according to LAW the protestors should disperse. There were warnings broadcast through every available avenue that at such and such a location, at a specified time, police would arrive to disperse recalcitrant protestors by all means needed. Nobody was tear-gassed, as they claimed. Pepper spray was used, however, as deemed necessary to clear the area, which was the objective the government and police had publicized well ahead of the time they finally moved in.
It's not that authorities were denying their right to protest but rather the issues were where the protestors were located (on residential streets, creating noise, mess, confusion and obstruction) and the exceptionally negative impact they were visiting upon residents, workers, govt employees, police and govt members and leaders. You can't obstruct traffic, blockade international borders, ignore lawful orders of govt and police. That's not protest, it's civil unrest. Of course, a government cannot ignore that, nor do a majority of citizens want them to.
> FYI the "gang of 4" who were arrested for bringing
> firearms, ammo (a lot) and body armor into the
> Coutts blockade were mostly Mormons from the local
> Moridor. People I've talked to who know them or
> know of them day they believe the conspiracy
> theories and pseudo science that is rampant in the
> anti vax anti government community.
This shocks me. I hadn't heard of it. Wow.
Silly question I guess but aren't Mormons expected by their church to be obedient to the govt and law (unless the leaders instruct otherwise, as in the outlier case of Jeffs etc)?
Pseudo science has a lot to answer for, undoubtedly.
Tyranny of the minority. Screw everyone else's rights and freedoms. Theirs are the only ones that count.