I was sitting in Sacrament one day when one of the Stake Presidency was going on about sustaining leaders, and why we raise our arms to the square.

It suddenly dawned on me, that I had been raising my hand for years because that is what you did, and it would eventually be used against you. As I thought further on the subject, I knew that about 99% of the time I could care less who did what, as long as it was not me.

In addition, at that time I did not particularly care for the current bishop.

So I stopped raising my hand, to any calling or request.

Then within months while talking to that bishop I mentioned, he scolded me and remined me that I sustained him.

I then looked at him and said, "Really, when was the last time you saw me raise my hand in Stake Conference, or even in the ward?"

His eyes glazed over and he quietly replied, "O yea, I forgot, you don't raise your hand." And then he walked away.

So when was your moment, and what did you do?

Sadly, I think the church leadership has immense power even if their claims to divine authority are fraudulent.

When we left the church, we knew that our names would be blackened and our kids would lose some of their closest friendships. And all of that was true. The ramifications have reached as far as our relationships with family members and our careers. It has been very, very harmful.

That's the tragedy of the church. Its power in human and social terms is hardly diminished because of its falsehood.

Yes, for years my family has been badmouthing me. Of course, nothing sticks, but they do it anyway.

This phenomenon became clear to me when I met people who were by any standard, the salt of the earth, but because they weren’t Mormon, they were judged by as deficient.

That never worked for me, and caused some cognitive dissonance.

Agreed.

I will second that. Over and over in my very young childhood I heard/saw good, caring, loving people that went out of their way for others treated like crap by the "good" people. Why? Because they were not mormon. Add to that the hypocrisy I saw in the "leaders" behind closed doors and when they were not around other members. Being a small, quiet child really lets you sink into the wallpaper.

"I think the church leadership has immense power even if their claims to divine authority are fraudulent."

Jerry, it's not a lie if you believe it.

Church authority comes from the consent of its enablers. It's a codependent relationship that is unhealthy for both sides. But yes, that is a lot of power just waiting to be abused. I would say unearned power, but butt kissing is a form of labor.

Another Deacon and myself decided to raise our hands in opposition to a few votes. We were ignored and I remember a few chuckles in the crowd.

My very last church meeting was a stake conference. DW did not want to attend as she severely disliked the leaders with good reason. The stake president gave a strange talk and spent the majority of the time praising himself. He is a classic narcissist. After the meeting ended, I walked out into the foyer and a woman who I had never met before said to me, 'Isn't he wonderful' I almost said out loud that he is a nut case. I wished I had. It was freeing knowing I would never attend one of those meetings again being led by mentally ill individuals. Not all Mormon leaders are like this guy, but he was well respected by the Salt Lake boys which made it clear to us that they were not inspired in any way.

If you truly believe that you are right for raising your arm in opposition, then you can be whisked out of the room by priesthood leaders to find why you "all those opposed" voted. It is done to embarrass you and to make you appear to be a troubled soul in the ward. Then the gossip begins about both the person being sustained and the person who opposed the sustainment.

I served under an ego driven, cocky zone leader. There were 2 district leaders and only one of them openly supported him. This zone leader had really stupid ideas that the rest of us refused to support; ex. -He wanted the zone to come to his area and spend all day finding people for him to teach. It was called a "knock out" going door to door. However, we would not do the same for everyone else's area, only his area.

We had several fights, literal physical attacks. Once over playing cards on Monday night after p-day. And yet, I was called out by the mission president for being full of contention and inviting the devil to take over the mission.

A lot of crap in following leaders to conform to Mormonism.

No leader has any power except for that which sycophants bestow on them.

Raising your arm to the square translates as "What kind of sycophant would you like me to be?

HEIL NELSON!


I was at BYU in 1973 and realized SWK was a petty little man.

I grew up hating church. By 7 years old I realized that all I had to do was say "I don't believe it" and any power they thought they had quickly disappeared....and they knew it. So I did what I wanted after that and didn't care about church rules and restrictions.

I've been out of the church over nine years and I still have to remind myself that church leaders have no authority. The feeling that someone else knows more about me and what's best for me than I do is probably one of the main reasons that it took me years to leave the church after I quit believing. Mormons in my life occasionally try to exercise what they think is their rightful authority and it still takes me a minute to consciously think about it before I push back.

It took me many, many years to develop what I would call, spiritual self-confidence. I came to realize that so-called authorities, leaders, gurus, etc. in most cases did not have any more knowledge or wisdom about life that I do. I think that when you are raised in a faith, especially a Christian church, you are conditioned to think that Jesus, priests, etc. have all the answers. It takes a long time to realize that not only do they *not* have all the answers, but no one does. People are human, and some give better advice about life than others.

Next you guys will be claiming that a book’s cover doesn’t exactly forecast its content!

The members give the church leadership their power. The church isn’t going to come and arrest you or kill you for not following orders. Each individual members has the CHOICE to keep feeding the machine or not.

The thing is, it’s easier to go along to get along than to actually stand up and go your own way. Many people in the church don’t want to be there they just don’t have the WILL POWER to leave. Fear of social reprimand or laziness keeps them there.

Some people actually stay to play the church. Their church connections allow them to make money or a church school gives them a discount on education. Some people stay because they have a fetish of being in a demanding religious organization but they love living a decadent life in secret. They love to try and score sexually with other members of the church.

though I had HUGE questions as I was going through the process with several leaders over saving my gay husband. One of the huge reasons I finally married him was to get the leaders out of my life as they were destroying me.

I pretty much haven't considered a leader to have any power over me for a while, like I refused to go to many interviews. Wouldn't even go to tithing settlement or to bishopric temple nights. Husband didn't like that much, but I was never going to let them think they could tell me what to do.

The time I really finally told it like it is is when my daughter went back to church. The bishop at the time lives 2 doors down (and now is the stake president). He e-mailed me about something and bore his testimony. I replied and told him that he has no authority over me. He actually said he knew he didn't, that I had never sustained him. None of them try anything anymore. I live in the midst of many of them. Right now, the first counselor lives next door. The last bishop lives on the other side of me NEXT DOOR. The bishop before that lives 2 doors North, and the one before that lives 2 doors South of me. I find it hilarious.

I've been told my daughter starts all her talks with "my mother has a boyfriend and my father has a boyfriend."

The church leaders were able to keep me in their clutches when I was TBM because I believed the church was "true" and the only way I would go to the best part of heaven where I'd be with my family.

I dutifully subjected myself to interviews with the bishop, starting when I was 13 years old and a new convert, answering every personal and embarrassing question asked of me. It never occurred to me that I could tell the bishop I would rather not meet with him.

When I was asked to give a talk, say a prayer, attend a meeting or accept a calling, I always said yes. I couldn't disobey.

I finally stopped going to church when I was in my 30s but still, when I ran into friends from the Mormon church - especially men who were "authority" figures, I still felt obligated to answer personal questions they asked. I couldn't help myself. I'd been groomed to answer questions and it was hard to break the habit.

I have only one TBM sibling. When I talk to him and he tells me of a calling he doesn't enjoy or a meeting he has to attend, I tell him that he doesn't have to accept callings or attend meetings. The bishop and other "authority" figures in church actually have no authority and he can say "no." I wish someone, especially my mother, had told me that when I was 12 years old. It would have saved me so much anguish.

So many stories that relate to when did I realize...
I'll start with one story and continue with more later.

We had a special needs child. My son was an extreme (totally off all the charts) example of an ADHD child. How can we manage our "good LDS home?" What role should our son and our family have in the Church?

All we ever heard from Church leadership was a pipeline of expectations that our son would never be successful participating with. You know what the Church program is for all (boys): baptism (8) -> deacon (12) -> teacher (14) -> priest(16) -> elder (18) -> mission (19 - for his age).

What if your son isn't suitable for this program or its timelines? The only prescription from Mormonism is more Mormonism. Do Mormonism even more with greater intensity. When your son gets on his mission, then all will be heavenly.

How can these revelations be personal when they are so very unsuitable for us?

We attended a group for community parents with other children with our son's problems with truancy, drugs and crime. Another father shared with usthat he had reduced expectations for his son. He had wished his son could be successful, graduate college, etc. In other words, typical parental goals when raising their child. He was now grateful that his son could work part time as a custodian.

Preach all you want LDS leaders. But you don't know me or my family. I will listen and ignore whatever doesn't apply.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2023 03:47PM by idleswell.

It was while I was asleep, in a vivid dream I had, where I was meeting with Area Authority and Bishop. They were telling me I couldn’t speak about my doubts,

I yelled at them,”YOU CANT DENY ME MY FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!!”

Which woke me and my wife up because I was actually yelling out loud!

When the Bishop and Area Authority both arrived later that day at my house to talk to me about my doubts and convince me of the error of my ways, I told them in no uncertain terms that they had no power to deny my my freedom of speech or the freedom to follow the dictates of my conscience.
I told them I believed in the 11th Article of Faith more than they did otherwise they wouldn’t have threatened me with excommunication for expressing my honest opinion to my wife and kids, nor would they be there trying to convince me to ignore my conscience which compelled me to speak up, especially to my wife and kids!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2023 05:13PM by schrodingerscat.

when I was watcing Gordon BS Hinckley tell another Hinckley lie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YEMX0VooD4h
ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YEMX0VooD4

Here is a good video for people who are on the membership rolls.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-5yFY_y8oo

When and what did you do when you realized leadership had no power?

My first doubt came 2008 I was a new mom and I heard from one of my cousins that many people in Utah don't accept church callings. My cousin was living in Utah at the time and was asked to be the second counselor in bishop rick when he accepted the calling the bishop said that several people before him had not accepted the calling. At this point I was TBM and thought that every calling needed to be accepted because the calling came from god.
I did put the information "I can say no to a calling" on my shelf. Polygamy has already been on my shelf since 1995 or so.
Power of discernment was the last straw when in my ward a pedophile had gotten callings with children and youth for over 20 years. Not one priesthood leader had the "power of discernment" I resigned in 2013. Not sure when in my life I learned about the lds "helpline" that the phone call goes to a law firm. The lds church has used lawyers to protect the pedophiles and not help the victims. When Sam Young got excommunicated for "Protect every child".
The pedophile got excommunicated and was not allowed to attend any lds buildings per Stake president. When I heard that the pedophile was seen in church I send out over 100 emails to ward members and over 30 Letters addressed to lds ward buildings to the hands of the current bishop. The stake president has told me that I was to be quiet about the pedophile. What power does he have? None! I have resented in 2013 and I can send emails and letters out and the stake president can not stop me. Now I am not that naive anymore that I think that I can prevent the pedophile to go back to church and to start molesting again but I do hope that my efforts have made a few people think "can I trust every lds member with my child and just assume that he is a good person?".