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Posted by: Concerned ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 10:26AM

My wife and I attended a 3 ward Easter Day Program in Texas. It was all youth. Youth choir, youth musical numbers and youth speakers. It was the worst and I mean the worst Easter Program I have attended in the Mormon Church. No spirit except Bishopric said at end "the spirit was there." We were late so had to sit in culture hall and watched members. Most talking to each other, lots on cell phones and others looking like they wished they were eating an Easter Egg.

Here is what was the problem for me. I grew up in the Church and have been active except for about last 20 years. But I still attend. I know what I was taught.

3 Youth speakers had assigned talks about how Jesus helps them everyday. One had the problem of choosing classes at high school. She bore testimony that Jesus indeed helped her in choosing classes. Another had some sort of problem, dad gave her a blessing and yes Jesús was there to help her. The third had some family issues and yes she could feel Jesus helping her and guiding her. They were all sincere teenagers.

Can you see the problem with the old and the new teachings?

When I was a teenager, were were taught to pray and ask Heavenly Father to guide and direct us. With the aid of the Holy Ghost that was the process and it seemed to work. The role of Jesus was to assist us when we went to the Father. In those days we talked about the spirit being with us when we made our decisions. Fast forward to last weekend. Nothing about going to Heavenly Father. It was about looking towards Jesus to be with them and help them and they knew He was there helping then. This is very troubling to me.

I was a high school counselor for many years. These problems that were expressed were problems I had to deal with everyday in my office. And kids got inspiration by problem solving and looking for solutions. What I heard on Sunday was they approached an imaginary friend and felt the spirit of an imaginary friend. That is very scary that we have a generation of LDS youth being raised this way. But it makes sense as it fits what Dusty is doing bring the Mormon Church in line with Christian Churches that are loosing members and closing Christian Churches everywhere. On Sunday the three ward members looked like they were lost and they were not getting solutions.

There was no talk about Jesus last days, no talks about the crucifixion, no talks about the atonement, no doctrinal talks about what Jesus was doing. But Jesus is definitely around today.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 10:52AM

Mormons have never been able to wrap their heads around Jesus. For eons they had the Book of Mormon instead and that allowed them to skip Jesus and talk about Joseph and his novel or worship their prophet du jour and leave Jesus on the back burner. Funny thing is that they were calling the BoM another testament of Christ but really it was just all about war and killing and curses with as much ugliness as the Bible. Cutting off everyone's arms?

Now Rusty has thrown them a curve and it's Jesus 24/7. The wheels have come off the bus. Mormons are virtually wandering the desert. Actually being herded.

The world has as big of issues as we have ever had and their Jesus helps them choose classes? This is a horrible thing to do to a child to make them believe that is happening. Jesus dumbed down. Personal Jesus. And it's not just Mormons that have dumbed him down. And I'm talking about Jesus the concept, Jesus the myth--that could serve a purpose as myths do, except, Jesus is just a dumbed down social weapon at this point.

What would Jesus really do? Probably take John the Beloved on a picnic. Well, when he's done deciding who will win the football game.

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Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 10:57AM

A major change woulkd be if, as you said, they used the name Jesus rather than the title Christ.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 11:25AM

Yes it's been changing since Nelson took over. I attended my former home ward in 2019.

I'm not being a smartass here, but if not talks about Jesus influencing young people's lives, what sort of message were you expecting to hear?

Joseph Smith, celestial marriage, the courage of Nephi, blessings from tithing?

I am not defending LDS Corp, but they are modifying their message and doctrine because sticking to their unique and peculiar doctrine isn't working. And maybe changing "becoming your own god" isn't going to work either. I still think they should invest in the youth~ they offer few activities, they still push invasive youth interviews.

I recently attended church in Texas (BT church, you can look it up if you want to) a few weeks ago. People are freely attending because they want to be there; the youth too! I'm not a church person, but every week they have a Jesus message and lots of young people choose to come to the front/stage and testify how they have accepted Jesus into their hearts and lives. The sermon was supposed to be 90 min but the pastor extended it an extra half an hour. Must have worked its magic as a 2nd round of donations rolled in.

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Posted by: nonmo_1 ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 07:12PM

"And maybe changing "becoming your own god" isn't going to work either."

Just thinking about it...WHO wants to be a 'high-level-CEO' of their own planet...f.o.r.ev.e.r..?? Eternity should be like retirement...just doing what you want.. Whoever is THIS planet's God (Adam maybe??), just shows how much WORK is involved...

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Posted by: lapsed2 ( )
Date: April 16, 2023 10:48AM

I can’t even keep my bedroom picked up. Why would I want to be a god?

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: April 16, 2023 12:16PM

That's why you have all us lowlifes in the terrestrial kingdom around to clean up after all the gods in the celestial kingdom.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 11:52AM

Those kinds of talks might plant questions in some young minds eventually:

Why did Jesus help me pick a high school class while ignoring the prayers of people being killed in tornadoes and children being abused?

Why am I sooooo special that Jesus helps me with trivia while so many suffer?


It makes it hard to think of Jesus as a helper. He's someone who has seriously messed up priorities.

I was watching some video of stations of the cross that I happened to run across this week. I don't have any idea where the church was. They had some weird guy carrying a cross and a bunch of kids were beating him. Why they like to act out the violence of the snuffing of Jesus is beyond me. These are probably the people who can't bear for their kid to hear about diversity. If you can make sense of any of this, you're ahead of me.

Like you, I always thought "the spirit" (which I assumed was Holy Casper) was inspiring me. It is a newer thing for sure to be imagining Jesus hovering around helping you look for car keys.

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Posted by: Concerned ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 12:51PM

On Sunday I came home and watched Jesus Christ Superstar. To me it really explains what the bible teaches about Jesus and his trial, etc. When it came out the Church told us to not watch it. Of course I did. When the Last Temptations of Christ came out again we were told by the Church to not watch it. Of course I did. There was another one also but I forgot the title.

These movies cause me to do some deep reflection about my beliefs and what I have been taught. They are well directed and in many ways present Jesus as a real person who lived in that time period. The fact that the Church does not have new coverts study the book "Jesus the Christ" is a dead give away that the top leaders really have no clue about Jesus. It was required reading in the 50 and 60's before members joined the Church. The more I study the life of Jesus both with Church and non Church materials I have come to realize that our Church leaders really have very little knowledge about the life of Christ. So it was disappointing to hear young people say they have a friend who assists them but they really have not really studied the life of Christ.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 01:35PM

Concerned Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So it was disappointing
> to hear young people say they have a friend who
> assists them but they really have not really
> studied the life of Christ.

In the churches I've attended this is what is taught from the pulpit by the trained minister. Congregants are free, of course, to do their own searching and reading as well.

I wouldn't really expect Mormons to do extra study outside of the many hours they already spend in church meetings and various related activities. It's unfortunate that in all that time they don't hear an uplifting or at least informative message from a trained, knowledgeable person. Rather, it's a period of long silence in a Sunday meeting, punctuated by the occasional member who stands up to give their testimony, or a halting good-bye or hello again speech from a departing or returning young missionary who has followed or is planning to follow the church mandate for its young men to go out and preach.

That was my experience and my lasting impression of the Mormon Sunday meetings.

As for studying the life of Jesus, again, you'd think that this would be covered in the many years of church-going before they set out on their mission.

My experience of Jesus in the Mormon Church during my brief foray into Mormonism was that as I pursued my "calling" of bulletin board monitor (my snarky name for it) I decided to put up a series of pictures (postcard style) of Jesus on the board, all the ones that are familiar in the Christian world, including some that illustrated the Mormon versions (White guy, white robe, red coat) and some with Mormon temples included. The bishop felt for reasons unknown to me at the time that he had to monitor me as, I guess, I was a new member and maybe I'd go wild and do something offensive (?) I really don't know why, and he ended up taking down some of the cards I had included. I was shocked that he would think I would do something unseemly and even more so that he would think I would use questionable pictures. Or whatever it was he was thinking - I never did find out. It just made me feel very uncomfortable and totally alone in a strange, strange place. My fault for not knowing more about Mormonism before I joined. I have thought since that maybe it was seen as a danger that I was focusing on Jesus and not Joseph Smith? I'll never know. But the display wasn't about JS so it never entered my head to include him. Besides, like there aren't enough images of him around the place already?

Also, in my assignment as a primary teacher (when I knew nothing about Mormonism or the BoM), a member used to hang around the classroom checking to see what I was teaching (or that's how it seemed). It was creepy. Why did they pressure me so much to get baptized and then make me a Primary teacher if they then didn't trust that I wouldn't inculcate the kids in some non-Mormon version of religion? One time on a summer day I took the kids outside to talk about nature, or something like that - I kind of forget now - and we were abruptly shuffled back inside by the guy watching me that day. Not allowed to go outside. Weird.

It's a definite sea-change if young Mormons are suddenly talking about their friend Jesus. It seems it could be a case of the church officials figuring they have to implement a more evangelical-type program so they parrot the words to try and fit in but don't really get the more mainstream teachings so it's strained and empty (at least for Christians in comparison with their meetings and beliefs that are more deeply centered on Jesus - understatement).

If the top guys are talking about Jesus now in their presentations then perhaps they might think about changing the sacrament meeting in that direction too, as that might be more inspiring or thought-provoking and interesting than the SMs we're all familiar with. Just too repetitious and deadly dull.


I'm writing these comments as a Christian who in a moment of insanity (it must have been) joined the Mormon Church for a nanosecond and didn't find anything inspiring at all anywhere ever. Ever since, I've quit going to church with "friends" because that has never ended well. I'm writing this post in response to the comments of Concerned so my remarks are meant to be in context with his.

I'm just trying to say I'm not intending to be preaching here, as it's against the rules, and out of respect for board readers and participants, whose opinions I've enjoyed reading for a good long while now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2023 01:37PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: April 16, 2023 02:32PM

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why did Jesus help me pick a high school class
> while ignoring the prayers of people being killed
> in tornadoes and children being abused?

> Why am I sooooo special that Jesus helps me with
> trivia while so many suffer?

Yeah. I've often mulled this over too. I mean, for all believers of every stripe, not just Mormons.

Including myself.

It's a tough one.

Because of this very thing I never pray for minutiae. Especially for myself.

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Posted by: Villager ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 01:03PM

I remember in the 70s and 80's. the wards would combine have an Easter Cantata, This was a program where the choir had practiced several times and the talks were given by adults and were specifically planned to be a meaningful part of the program or there would be scriptures read from the New Testament. The relief society would bring flowers for each side of the pulpit. It was an "Easter Program. And it was a nice change from regular sacrament meeting. We didn't have classes that day. I remember specifically there were songs from Handel's "The Messiah". It all made Easter feel like a special day.

Another thing I was specifically taught was that our prayer's are to GOD THE FATHER in Jesus's name and we learned to pray like...Our Father which art in Heaven, etc. We asked God to help us make decisions NOT to make decisions for us. That is the reason for our time on earth---to learn and grow. We ended prayers IN THE NAME of Jesus Christ. This is one way we were distinct from the Catholics. Palm Sunday was not talked about.but the Easter Bunny was. The resurrection and new life was discussed.

Our family would spend time together and have a special Easter dinner. Usually a baked ham. The nice place settings were also used.My dad would usually make us kneel. At the end of the day we would look for our car keys in order to get home--no praying needed. My own kids remember Easter as a special day and celebration.

One new tradition I do like is buying some Palm plants for the porch. I bought a Buddha this year instead of a chocolate Bunny. If the church is going off course so far, I am changing traditions too. Going to church is not one of our family traditions anymore.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 04:43PM

>> We ended prayers IN THE NAME of Jesus Christ. This is one way we were distinct from the Catholics.

Catholics do that as well. Or they might say, "through Jesus Christ, amen" which carries the same meaning.

I know of some Catholics who privately pray to Jesus, but it's not all of them. Catholics also pray to Mary and the saints.

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Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 01:08PM

Those who were members in California in the earlky seventies might remember a publication called the California Messenger. The church long wanted California members to only read the Church News. They had the perfect excuse to shut down the CM when it ran a positive review of Jesus Christ Superstar.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 01:45PM

How could ChurchCo shut down a non-sponsored publication?

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 01:45PM

How could ChurchCo shut down a non-sponsored publication?

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Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 02:33PM

I believe it was published by a group of stakes. Pressure, pressure, and more pressure.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 03:10PM

Too bad that doesn't work so well with masturbation...

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 03:17PM


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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 08:41PM

Jesus is like a personal genie who appears when you rub a lamp and disappears when you rub something else.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 01:48PM

This started long before Rusty came along. He just kicked it up a notch.

Remember back in the 1960s or 70s, when they started embedding concrete name placards in the walls of ward buildings that had JESUS CHRIST in much larger font size than the rest of the church name?

The "we are too Christian" push goes back at least that far.

The current push about not using the word "Mormon" also includes "don't call us LDS." One of the goals is to force the rest of the world to say Jesus Christ every single time they refer to LDS Inc.


But as OP points out, Mormonism was always about Heavenly Father, and Jesus was clearly second fiddle. And Mary of course wasn't even allowed on the Mormon stage.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: April 16, 2023 02:51PM

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The current push about not using the word "Mormon"
> also includes "don't call us LDS." One of the
> goals is to force the rest of the world to say
> Jesus Christ every single time they refer to LDS
> Inc.

I still say 'Mormon' as that's what they were known as when they invited me into their temple.

As a nod to their New Name (while seeking to ditch their original one) I also use LDS as a short form.

I was always turned off by their frequent use of the term 'Christ' which to me is stark and startling even at times. Christians I know never just utter 'Christ' but always say 'Jesus Christ' or just 'Jesus'.

Likewise, I don't like their insistence on now saying 'Jesus Christ' all the time. As if using those two words all over the place magically transforms them from Mormons to mainstream Christians. It does not. If I changed my name to Petra it wouldn't make me Greek.

I don't like it when fundamentalist Christian pastors say Jesus all the time either, with their peculiar pronunciation, prolonging it to about 17 syllables.

I think my sensitivity to it in any setting comes partly from my dad's superior swearage capacity and 'Jesus Christ' being one of his all-time favourite epithets. When he just said 'Christ' that really kicked it up a couple of notches.

One day when we were little kids he was breaking up a concrete pathway running through our back yard and he hit his hand with a sledgehammer. Yowch. I was waiting for his usual go-to 'Jesus Christ' which would have been understandable and forgivable in the circumstances but for once he said nothing at all, just knelt there waiting for the pain to subside. I was pretty impressed that he was silent on that occasion.

The Great Mormon Transformation is happening quickly rather than generally morphing with time which is why it's so obvious and so tempting to distrust and criticize. I guess in a few years they'll be saying we were never Mormon. Or something like that. And who's Joe Smith?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2023 02:53PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 02:35PM


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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 02:52PM

Very interesting.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 04:02PM

They are not, not really, anybody.

The Mormon leadership is politically conservative, not politically populist. They are pro-immigration, pro-personal virtue, pro-constitution; they have fastidiously avoided endorsing Trump and have not openly embraced Mike Lee and that Stewart idiot.

Sure, they are moving towards Protestant Christianity but not the white nationalist version. They are Mitt Romney, not Donald Trump.

It's an important distinction.

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Posted by: blindguy ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 05:03PM

I would agree with your summation with one caveat. While the LDS leadership may be trying to steer clear of political populism. some of their paying followers most certainly are not.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 05:04PM

Absolutely true.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 05:08PM


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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 05:06PM

Well, I didn't say they *are* -- just moving towards.

Here's my position.

The Brethren want their own "fiefdom" so to speak in white "christian" America, and fly under the radar as being thought of as "just another church" by people who aren't paying a lot of attention -- which is why I don't try to warn people about Mormonism any longer. The uninformed don't know it's a cult based on Joseph Smith's sex fantasies and Brigham Young's murders and greed. You can't tell people about magic underwear and crazy warped stuff in the temple copied from Masons. They don't believe you and think you are crazy instead.

Mainline EV Protestants, Southern Baptists, etc. had/have major doctrinal issues with Mormonism, but they've turned that down now for political purposes.

There's also the bait-and-switch angle.

Mormonism is a swindle, and the only way they are going to get any new people in the Information Age is by passing themselves off as "just another church" in the current far right milleu.

So perhaps a better way of saying it would be "Mormonism is masquerading or pretending to be more like EV fundies."


Agree about the membership becoming/acting like EV fundie xtians -- just with a Mormon spin on it -- which makes no difference what direction it's coming from if they are spouting the same nonsense about the Constitution being "divinely" inspired, God gave America as the "promised" land from Genesis 26 or Lehi, Nephi, we need guns for the Apocalypse because of the black and brown hordes, makes no difference.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2023 05:12PM by anybody.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 05:20PM

Yeah, I don't agree with that.

Mormonism is only growing in non-white areas like Latin America and Africa. The church is opposed to laws against illegal immigration. The last thing they want to do is go "white." What they want is to go towards established Protestantism that is pro-establishment and downplays race and ethnicity.

Now blindguy is correct about Mormons: roughly half are Mitt Romney traditionalists like the church leadership, somewhere around a third are white nationalists. The upshot is that the church must be quiet in its opposition to the extremists like Ammon Bundy. But you'll never find any authoritative approval of Trump or of white nationalism.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 05:26PM

some of membership is -- which is problematic for a top down organisation like LD$, Inc.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 05:23PM

Your edit puts a point on the issue. What I think you are missing is that the church does NOT teach that "black and brown hordes" are a threat to the church or the country.

That is a huge difference between Mormonism and white nationalist evangelicals.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 05:28PM

And some of the membership most certainly does.

Think it was Steve Benson that mentioned some of the horrible racist books his grandfather or someone else close to him put out.

Another Issue:

What Is Mormonism?

Is it what is "officially taught" or is it what people actually believe?

I think that's the crux of the matter, pun intended.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2023 05:32PM by anybody.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 05:39PM

Two issues.

1) Racism. In the 1950s and 1960s Mormonism was immensely racist. Since the 1970s the church has moved in the opposite direction to the point where they revised the scriptures to take out the overtly racist bits and shelve the BoA; stated frequently that racism has no place in the religion; and support pro-immigrant legislation. In short, this is not your (grand)father's church.

2) Mormon leadership versus Mormon culture. In a hierarchical and dictatorial religion, the leadership matters more than the members. That said, there is a rift between the two camps in the membership and the church is doing its best not to let that grow more prominent.

I would say there are three Mormonisms: the leadership, the traditional conservatives (Salt Lake City, symbolically), and the white nationalists (Idaho, symbolically). It's important, I think, to distinguish between them.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 05:39PM

https://muse.jhu.edu/article/836118

Mormonism and White Supremacy: American Religion and The Problem of Racial Innocence. By Joanna Brooks. Oxford University Press, 2020. 240 pages. $34.95 cloth; ebook available.

Over the past ten years scholars have published a profusion of books about institutional racism. Richard Rothstein's The Color of Law (2017) examines how federal, state, and local governments imposed racial segregation in various cities throughout the United States, creating zoning laws meant to stifle African American mobility. In The Color of Money (2019), Mehrsa Baradaran probes how banking policies affected [End Page 141] African Americans and kept them mired in poverty. Michelle Alexander's The New Jim Crow (2012) evaluates the racial inequities in the criminal justice system, particularly among African American men, who were often stripped of their rights by the courts. Now we have Joanna Brooks' book Mormonism and White Supremacy, which explores institutional racism within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—a faith with which Brooks affiliates. She provides a penetrating case study demonstrating how the Mormon church created a racist theology that continues to persist well into the twenty-first century. As Brooks states, her purpose is to "identify how anti-Black racism took hold in Mormonism" (13).

Part history and part cultural analysis, Brooks provides a sweeping overview of Mormon racial theology. She defines white supremacy as "the entire system of ideas, beliefs, and practices that give white people better chances based on perceived skin color and ancestry" (1) and argues that Mormon leaders instituted a number of policies aimed to discriminate against persons of black African ancestry. In 1852, Mormon prophetpresident Brigham Young instituted a priesthood and temple ban, which denied black people access to the faith's most cherished rituals. Then, even after the ban was lifted in 1978 by Mormon church president Spencer W. Kimball, Brooks writes that black people continued to suffer because the Mormon hierarchy failed to reckon with the church's racial theology. The governing hierarchy neither condemned its racist teaching, which alleged that God had cursed black people, nor sanctioned interracial marriage, thereby giving the impression that it was still sinful and wrong.

Like many Protestant and evangelical Christians, Mormons privileged whiteness, creating an inhospitable environment for persons of color to flourish within the church. An underlying theme in Mormonism and White Supremacy is that Mormons suffered from "racial innocence," blithely unaware of the harm the church has done to people of color (3). Brooks convincingly argues that rather than confront its history of white supremacy, the governing church hierarchy looked to the future rather than correct the mistakes of the past. It was only recently, Brooks writes, when LDS church leaders repudiated Mormon racial teachings. Prompted by Mormon Mitt Romney's 2012 presidential run and a spate of bad publicity in the national news media assailing Mormon racial teachings, the church hierarchy published an essay on "Race and Priesthood" in which it explicitly repudiated the notion that blacks were cursed. The essay also expressed support for interracial marriage and condemned the decadesold teaching that black people lacked moral purity in a pre-earth life.

One of the strengths of the book is that Brooks succeeds in demonstrating the ways in which Mormons created a racial hierarchy favoring white people and how, in turn, that privilege poisoned the church [End Page 142] body. She is less successful narrating the history of Mormon racial theology. There is very little historical context in her analysis—ideas are static and relationships and influences are assumed, not probed. Nevertheless, this book is a stark reminder that institutional racism plagues even the best of churches.

Finally, the book is a call to action for Mormon leaders to do more to confront the pernicious effects of racism in the church. Scholars of Mormonism and religious studies will find this book both informative and engaging.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 12, 2023 05:47PM

I don't disagree with that summary.

The antepenultimate paragraph is key. Starting in the late 1960s most of the leadership tried to de-emphasize the white supremacist history and were blocked by Harold Lee, Joseph Fielding Smith, Packer and Benson. But by the 1990s the "liberals" were dominant and racism was increasingly suppressed, resulting in the 2000s with a consistent policy of resisting anti-immigrant government policies. The Romney campaign forced the church to formalize its new anti-racist attitude.

But of course white nationalism really peaked in the years immediately after that, and the LDS leadership and the bulk of the church did not embrace the movement. White supremacy is thus today a minority school of thought--an important one that deserves attention, but it doesn't really define the religion.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: April 13, 2023 11:01AM

Will jesus help them find their car keys ?

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Posted by: matt ( )
Date: April 16, 2023 01:04AM

Attended Church of England Holy Week Services every day, but each was different and meaningful, very spiritual in a genuine way. I participated in readings, etc.

At one point I thought "So THIS is what Mormonism deprived me of, all those years?"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2023 01:05AM by matt.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: April 16, 2023 02:19AM

The church has always changed. I have my 2nd great grandfather’s journal and at Stake Conference they were talking in tongues and one talk was about the return of the star of Bethlehem. It sounds like a crazy revival meeting.

We all grew up in the correlated church David O McKay created. Now it’s going into more of a mainstream Christian church. At least on the surface.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 16, 2023 11:50AM

"Yaba daba doo!" is Adamic for something, but I forget exactly what...

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