Although not having been raised Mormon (or BIC from what I have gathered from the vernacular), I came across this site several years ago because I worked for a Mormon boss, and was looking into getting some insight into the whole mindset.

It was clear he was mightily devout, but never once preached at our workplace, and rose through the ranks eventually becoming a Stake President. His son worked there too - decent enough kid - worked HIS way up the ranks at the company eventually becoming CFO or its equivalent. He is still an active member in the Mormon church.

Boss and I had a pretty good working relationship; he relied on me heavily for over 20 years, and even though I was a working woman, and eventually a single working woman after my divorce, I believe he had a grudging respect for me as a person, and certainly for my work ethic.

But I digress...

I came here tonight, because after several years of not looking at these posts, I've come to notice a shift in the rhetoric.

At first, it seemed that there were a lot of women posting, and bemoaning their lot in life as brood mares, having to take responsibility for the well-being of all and everything on the home front, as well as fulfill all the obligations piled on them to be active in church activities. While their husbands were free to come and go as they pleased - and mostly gone a lot fulfilling their own church duties. What a time suck!

My thoughts after reading several recent posts, is that there has been a real shift since my last visit, to wit:

- It appears that there are more submissions by men than before.

- The general age seems more mature. To cite an example, I read a gentleman's (impassioned!) post about leaving his mission back in 1979, at which time he probably was in his early 20's, if I'm not mistaken. If I do the math, that would put him in his 60's now. Other submissions include time ranges such as "I spent 20 years here, or 30 years there..." while they were working adults, putting them at or close to the same age range.

- I see much more of a tendency to address politically leaning topics, such as gay rights, voting trends, etc., leading me to believe that those who post here have, or are becoming more aware of a world that exists beyond the realm of the church.

- I also see a drift to becoming more outspoken about specific church leaders/elders/office-holders (I don't know all the lingo there, at all), but sometimes alluded to by initials or nicknames that are unfamiliar to those of us "outside the fold". Downright critical at times as to their attitudes, "Nixon-esque" denials of things they have done, flipping the script about things they have said they would do/never do...

Am I way off base here, or has the site generally become more progressive in airing grievances?

Trust me...I'm no troll, just someone who is genuinely curious. And I have the greatest respect for those of you who have chosen a life outside of this oppressive cult (my view.)

Thanks to any and all that choose to respond.

Yes, the board members do seem to be skewing older. There is now more leeway to discuss political topics, but it is not absolute. The main thing for me is that there is less discussion of the historical problems with Mormon truth claims. I think that's because most of us are already familiar with that. But when we do get a newcomer, we're happy to get them pointed in the right direction in that regard.

Are you still working, or retired, or have you moved on from that company? I'm staring down retirement myself, but will still be at it for another year at a minimum.

No, I'm no longer with that company. I was told that there was no longer a place for me, after almost 35 years. This happened when I tried to re-negotiate my hours, as I was still getting my feet under me while recovering from treatment for leukemia.

This was from the boss who promised me (underlined, bold, italics) there would always be a place for me.

And boy am I glad I'm out of there, as the ethic and moral has deteriorated to new lows.

They have expanded exponentially, and all the top brass (of which there seems to be a plethora), are Mormom.

I hear it has become a hellish place to work, from those who are bold enough to convey their opinions...but only on the QT, for fear of being overheard. Sounds like some kind of Nazi state of affairs.

I would have never lasted in that kind of environment, as I am too outspoken...as I was back in the day.

But fortunately, part of my responsibilities morphed into HR, so I stood on firm footing regarding my rights as an employee.

Thanks for your reply and questions.

I'm in my thirties, only been here since 2021, I think? So not long enough to notice any changes or trends.

Am I considered young? I don't consider myself as young. I'm not elderly either, but I look at those in their 20's and think of them as young, sometimes obnoxious, immature emotionally, etc. You know, enough for me to feel a gap in relatability with them that I can only describe with mature irritableness. ^^;;

I remember searching for "ex-Mormon forum" and finding this place. I prefer this forum style to Reddit which feels more chaotic to the other more leveled out forums I have been on. However, from what I hear, a lot of younger folks enjoy the exmo community on Reddit, so, perhaps they're opposite of me and enjoy the Reddit style threads and dislike more structured forums?

I also tend to swim in a small pool of exmos on Youtube who are close to my age. They mention and frequently cross post content from their own Tik Tok accounts, and I understand that they do this to appeal to the younger crowd as well. And younger people seem to appreciate short form video to forums as well.

Anyway, those are just some guesses I have about ages shifting from here over the years.

I notice one obvious tend. There is far less content about Mormonism, even though there is no shortage of material. No one has mentioned RM Nelson's dubious scalpel story for example. In the early days of the forum, there was a lot of satire and humor, a lot of which was genuinely funny. That's gone now.

Many people use this forum to bang their own drums. In the early days, it tended to be atheists, but more recently things have taken a turn to the hard left due to a handful of posters. Referring to these posts as "social issues" and "politically leaning topics" is a bit of a euphemism. They don't reflect moderate viewpoints.

As for the age thing... there are probably a few reasons for that. The forum doesn't allow memes to be posted and isn't social media. Young people are also wanting somewhere they are allowed to speak their minds freely. At least it's still anonymous.

I consider myself a political moderate. I was a registered Republican for more than 30 years. But when the Republican party chose to take away women's reproductive rights, that's when we parted ways. That, plus the complete disrespect for the results of the last presidential election lost me entirely.

Imagine if you lost some important rights. Perhaps you might lose the right to make private medical decisions, or to have credit in your own name, or to own property, or to vote. These are all rights that women have had to fight hard for over the years. No, many of us do not appreciate moving backward in that regard.

This is true.

Sleepy in Seattle is incorrect. It is not we, or the board, who "have taken a turn to the hard left" at all. What happened is the GOP took the country on a hard turn to the far right, where women have no rights, minorities are the enemy, foreigners are evil, constitutions are meaningless, and tyranny is good.

Today's Republican Party is not comparable to the Eisenhower Administration, whose top marginal tax rate was 92%; the Nixon Administration, which created the EPA and OSHA and cooperated with China and Russia in the interest of peace; or the Reagan Administration, led by a president who had lots of gay friends and gave a blanket amnesty to illegal immigrants. On substantive issues, today's progressive Democrats fit squarely where the GOP did in the 1950s.

The rightward jolt, for it wasn't a move or an evolution, had a direct impact on Mormonism. Captain Moroni attended the January Six riots, Ammon Bundy is a Mormon who casts himself in Mormon terms, the status of minorities is a Mormon issue, the status of the constitution is Mormon issue, women's and gay rights are Mormon issues, Mitt Romney and Jon Huntsman are Mormons, and the rift between the right- and left-wing branches of Mormonism is Mormon.

If Sleepy wants to dispute any of this, s/he is welcome to do so. But it should be done with facts, not innuendo.

Absolutely. Brilliantly said.

I was going to say something similar, because I kind of balk at folks trying to hide behind "everything is too political/extreme on the left" right now. Especially considering everything going on. I have a right to be anxious and to want to talk about it, especially when such things embolden a patriarchal religion like Mormonism.

I have a story idea in the back burner where I go back in time to 2006 and do a history report in my old social studies class. A dreadful presentation where all my old classmates and the teacher are horrified, like I'm talking about having lived through World War II and the Holocaust. Except it's just me showing slides and news clips and giving a summary of the major world events from 2008-2030(because in the story we gotta be farther along because we have time travel).

Exactly correct.

The reactionaries pulled the political spectrum far to the right and now insist that everyone be centrist. But "centrist" means no abortion, no gay rights, no minority rights, no safety on the streets, no constitution.

Sorry. Words and their meanings don't change when a new political movement is born.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sleepy in Seattle is incorrect. It is not we, or
> the board, who "have taken a turn to the hard
> left" at all.

There are political posts on here by the wagonload that have little or nothing to do with Mormonism and ⁹/¹⁰ of them come from the far left camp. That wasn't the case twenty years ago.

Just because you have redefined the center as "far left" doesn't make it so.

You still have not addressed my concern -- exactly which fundamental right are you willing to give up? -- because you sure don't care about the loss of *my* rights as a woman.

The previous 4 or 5 posts, starting with SleepyInSeattle, represent precisely why I wrote my original letter.

Bingo-bongo, things morphed into right/left, GOP/Democratic, constitutional rights...

Not that there is ANYTHING wrong with that on any forum, but it highlights what I was inferring to in the first place.

It's been a telling visit, and I've enjoyed it!

You can look at Christian Nationalism as driving the attacks on people's rights, or being used by the far right in service of those attacks.

It's all of a feather.

I haven't seen what you are describing and I haven't heard a scalpel story. I read this site every few days but I don't post a lot.

I am a born and raised Utahn and have "leaned to the left" my whole adult life. I have not seen what you are describing and I think I would have picked up on it.

I was about the only one on this board who didn't think Jodi Arias should get 1st degree murder.

Post a link to the scalpel story, I would like to read it.

From his GC talk this year - although was previously published in 2019

https://www.ldsliving.com/how-a-dangerous-encounter-with-botulism-taught-president-nelson-spiritual-self-mastery/s/90645

The problem with this story is that botulism and gas gangrene are not the same thing. They are caused by different bacteria.

Gas gangrene is usually caused by Clostridium perfringens and occasionally by a few other bacteria (but not Clostridium botulinum)

Botulism is caused by Clostridium botulinum and rarely by a couple of other Clostridium species (but not Clostridium perfringens).

Botulism is not transmissible from person to person - even from a scalpel.

So this version of the story is overly dramatic and microbiologically incorrect.

Thank you for the link, I had not read this. Wow.

A couple things that stand out (besides the totally wrong microbiology) to me.

There was not one woman in the picture of him and his classmates. I would expect to see at least one or two.

He practiced during the time of overwhelming God-Complex by many physicians and from what I read Cardiovascular Surgeons were some of the worse.

The word "notoriety" does not necessarily mean "Overwhelmingly Good." And Gary Stevenson was too young to have actually worked with him during his career.

Years ago an elderly woman I worked with at an Utah hospital told me she hated Russell Nelson, her words were impassioned and I asked her to talk to me about it....

. Her husband needed open heart surgery and both of them felt strongly about having Dr. Nelson do it. They had to wait longer to have Nelson but finally the day came and they rolled him back to the OR.

While in the waiting room a resident came out and told her that her husband had died during surgery. She asked if Dr. Nelson would come talk to her and she was told "no". There wasn't anymore to be said and it was a busy day for him. She was devastated.
Apparently the DR. had left the suite leaving undertrained people in charge. Things started to go wrong and the problems couldn't be reversed.

Surgical teams that work together in the OR are now the norm for big procedures. The survival rate has gone up drastically. Nelson probably worked before this concept was implemented.

"demanding absolute control" is now how he runs the church.

He probably reached over a sterile field and got jabbed and didn't know he could ask nicely for stronger suture. Team work is what works.

He must be a miserable bossy old man to work with.

Wow. This really deserves its own post.

Good observation...I hadn't stopped to consider all the other social media platforms available today, as I don't do Tik-Tok or any of the others except Facebook. And even that was in its infancy, if it existed at all, when I first came here.

So it's natural to assume many of the younger crowd would gravitate to using those sites, as they have a greater outreach.

Thanks!

A friend told me about this place and I came out of curiosity because I thought the idea of having to "recover" was absurd. When I figured out what the church really was back in 73 while at BYU I hit the ground running, left it in the dust. Happy as a clam to know it was out of my life. Bye, now Felicia.

Of course you land in a spot with a lot of people with something in common and can't stop reading. What hit me hard was at the center of what bluebutterfly wrote in another post. After a few years of being out of Mormonism and in SoCal I had to admit I didn't fit in anywhere else either. Took a lot more years to realize how much I had been atrophied spiritually, emotionally, and especially socially by having been raised extreme Mormon. I was "unusual"--to put it nicely.

When I skipped out of Mormonism, I just buried all of that all the way to China. It took coming here to unpack what I had shoved to the back of my mind and put it all back in a new order after letting it see the light of day. Thank you Erik.

I don't know how long I've been here, but the wit and the caring and the fact that we could all finish each other's sentences means a lot. So I still like to be here.

I don't like the trend of the forum you note away from Mormonism and the new dominance of social issues as it has become a few people's own Off Topic blog spots. I think that puts off people who really need the actual RFM part of RFM. I worry about lurkers.


For many leaving Mormonism isn't as traumatic as it was for some of us back in the day before Google and the CES. It was a personal hell when it came to TBM family for me. But for many coming from those Mormon families that are in it to win it at any cost, this place is gold.

That's part of what I was getting at when I mentioned the "shift" to other issues from what I considered the original reason for this site existing at all.

There are plenty of other outlets for expressing political views, and getting on your soapbox to expound on them.

But I'm glad you can still find some refuge here with the mutual understanding that many of you have experienced the same things.

I enjoyed your post.

I like conversation and topics that can be discussed without anybody grabbing a torch and going on the war path. Yes, most of us are older, and for me I prefer conversation at a more mature level. I despise social media, I consider it one of the worst things mankind has introduced to its social structure. But I like the internet for the real\proven information it provides. I as well think the board is leaning a little bit to far on the social issues.

As a youth growing up in Mormonism, we had tons of activities and events that made things fun. My youth leadership was relaxed and treated us well. So during my youth years, since everybody around me was a Mormon, then for the most part it went well. Of course as a teen, you always thought things were awful.

It was my mission that awakened me to alternatives. While in the mission field I encountered people who I considered great examples of Christ like behavior. I discovered life beyond Mormonism. The church had moved beyond activities, and was becoming the Corporate structure it is today. People and family stability were second to tithing demands, service to the church, and do as you are told. In the mission field all that mattered were the numbers. Mission Presidents ran things like a business.

It got worse over the years for me as the church did everything it could to turn me into a drone bee worker. Many things began to build until the final moment arrived when a Bishop ordered me to pay tithing per what he calculated and I better bring my checkbook with me. And then soon after the whistle blower announced the 100 Billion Fund the church has been hiding.

I had been betrayed, lied to, used, and when I stopped attending I was discarded. Being in Mormon country I do not fit. Many people treat me kindly, but I do not do the Mormon thing, and I do not do the party thing. Almost as if I am in a no mans land, of which I can relate to Done & Done.

Mormonism stripped me of my faith, unless it is empirical or has a real basis, I will reject it. So I do not pursue religion at all, and remain open minded as an agnostic would.

My heart aches at your experience, as it mirrors so many others here...I can't begin to fathom...

I like your comment about "more mature conversation" as people tend to communicate in full sentences sans text-speak and endless emojis. It's refreshing!

All the best to you.

I came here in my early 30s 20 years ago.

The forum is a river and it changes everytime I dip into it.

Interesting prescriptive. Yes, the median age is probably because of the medium. I still like it and not reddit.

I came here at age 64 in about 2011 after having been in active in the cult since 1971. I resigned from LDS Inc. in Sept. 2012. I have learned so much.

I still can't figure out how I put up with you guys*...





*"guys" includes all the humans, quasi-humans, demi-humans ... and Gladys

(Edited to add the asterisk)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2023 03:28PM by elderolddog.

Yeah, well at least I'm not 16% Neanderthal on my mother's side.

Which is why there is hair growing on my hair...

But hey, we all have our ox gored by the cross we bear.

You have a nose under that hair?

I think it's hair under and growing from the nose.

No wonder the ladies love you.

As others have mentioned, this forum doesn't allow memes and other visuals that younger folks crave. Ex. A big middle finger with the words: What I think of watching conference.

And part of the reason why there's more O/T topics is because many former members have recovered from Mormonism~ The Church. They have been out for decades and the lifestyle is all but a distant mirage in their personal rear view mirror. Additionally, the church has changed since many people here at RfM left. I am biased in my perception that it is easier to find info about the church, history, and policies. I also believe that the church is more accustomed to members leaving, and I think they have scaled back some of the hardness that they used to hurl at people who made the decision to leave.

". . . the church has changed since many people here at RfM left. . ."

That is true. The church doesn't "do" truth anymore: history is metaphor, the plates are in heaven, doctrine is obedience.

What is there left to debate other than sociology, the church's political interference and mistakes, the community of believers and its trends, etc?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2023 05:59PM by Lot's Wife.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------
>
> What is there left to debate
> other than sociology, the
> church's political interference
> and mistakes, the community of
> believers and its trends, etc.?


You left out Einstein, whom I consider to be the Great Attractor if not the Greatest Attractor . . .

Is it true that you would be harassed after you stopped attending? I mean to the point that months later, elders and other officials would knock on your door in the evening and give you a bad time, and try to convince you to "return to the fold", making you feel like a bad person?
If so, this is unconscionable behavior.

candlelight Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is it true that you would be harassed after you
> stopped attending? I mean to the point that months
> later, elders and other officials would knock on
> your door in the evening and give you a bad time,
> and try to convince you to "return to the fold",
> making you feel like a bad person?
> If so, this is unconscionable behavior.

My story: House burned down, went to church for help (your life goes upside down regardless of how much of your life is wrecked from fire, smoke and water). Was told that it didn't look too bad-one drove down my street at 11pm. Was told to count my blessings by stake presidency and stop bothering the leaders.

Ward clerk came by to request the church keys, I was assistant membership clerk. No leaders came by, only drippy apologetic missionaries who came to rescue my family. They thought my wife and I were stupid for feeling offended. Told them I didn't need a church to worship how my conscience dictated- sound familiar?

That's just inhumane behavior. Doesn't Christianity teach you to always help those in need? Yet they asked YOU to turn over the keys so they wouldn't be inconvenienced?

I am literally shaking my head as I wrote that.

From an outside perspective, it's clear there is an entitled me, me, me persona evidenced the higher up you get in the strata.

Shame on them.

candlelight Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is it true that you would be harassed after you
> stopped attending?

Absolutely true, candlelight.

>> Is it true that you would be harassed after you stopped attending?

Yes, there have been many, many stories shared on the board over the years regarding that. Sometimes even resigning doesn't stop the harassment. And even if adults make it clear that they are not interested, the church members have been known to go after their children.

It depends on where you live -- some people go inactive with zero problems, but being harassed is quite common as well. Even if you move out of the area, or out of state, the church will go to great lengths to track you down.

Justification for harassment: You made a covenant to become a member (at 8 yrs old). And members make covenants in the temple to be loyal to the church and go after "lost sheep".

They use both ideas to guilt people to stay in the boat. That's why many exmos have resigned because the church won't leave members alone.

Yes, but even if you get "back in the boat" in your current ward, or another one where you live now, do the other members still give you the "side-eye" for having left in the first place?

Is there any legal recourse you can pursue if the harassement becomes too intrusive? Especially if it involves minor-aged children. Like you would do against a sexual predator stalking your child.

Do the people urging you to return get special honors, or another "jewel in their crown" in heaven if you do go back?

This sounds like the Mafia, that once you're in, you're "made" for life...

I just may have been way off base when I started this thread. I poked around the site, and found messages I followed in the way-back machine.

One of which were vitriolic comments to a speech given by Ann Romney, when Mitt was running for The Big House.

Clearly, political discourse has been a part of this journey all along!

I disagree that most people here have already 'recovered', thereby explaining the increasing amount of off-topic posts. I do not care for the off-topic posts.

Even though I quit at 18, formally resigned a few years ago (I'm almost 44), I don't feel that I will EVER fully recover. It's a cult. It's a mind *&%!. My parents and many family members are still and always will be TBM. They have tried to get their hooks into my children. I have been shamed, confronted, you name it in public places by TBMs that I still see.

Unless I uprooted my family, disowned my family of origin, and never looked back, I will continue to be affected by this cult. I refuse to change my life and where I live because of it.

I agree that the younger crowd tends to like the social media that is more visually appealing, fun to use, etc. They like to consume and create 'content'. Even my 35 year old brother in law is obsessed with TikTok. So I think the 40 and up crowd is more prevalent due to the plainness of this forum (which I like) more than anything else.

To what end? Do you get a higher place in this heaven by abasing others, especiallly in public? I thought you were supposed to be shunned, and they wouldn't event acknowledge your existence...which might be a good thing, in the long haul.

I admire your strength in sticking it out in the face of such vicious encounters.

I also agree, that the discourse here is straightforward, easy to navigate, and is posted by some very well-spoken people.

Oh, I've definitely been shunned as well. See my other thread entitled, 'Am I being shunned?'

I was also harassed for YEARS by missionaries, visiting teachers, you name it. I knew that the only way to get that nonsense to stop was to formally resign. I get very triggered when I see missionaries in my neighborhood or elsewhere because they were the main offenders of harassment. I am convinced that my own father put them up to it 'for my own good'.

I'm thirty-one, so I don't know that much about the trends here, apart from browsing the archives when I first started reading this forum. I honestly wonder if older board members treat me like a kid sometimes.

As for politically leaning topics, I was told growing up that Mormonism was the way to eternal love. I grew up with two childish TBM assholes for parents and saw the opposite of people "living the gospel" being happy for eternity. And the first person I could see myself actually marrying is a bisexual transwoman, someone Mormonism would condemn for existing. Part of why I reserve the right to gush about her. Plus, she accepts me for who I am and we geek out to a lot of the same stuff; if that isn't gush-worthy, what is?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2023 11:49PM by ookami.

Oh my! I'll bet you couldn't have voiced that, or posted it on a public forum several years ago!

Follow your path!

Please tell me that wasn't sarcastic.

I don't think it was, ookami. I could be wrong, but candlelight's other posts suggest an empathy and earnestness redolent of Nightingale.

That was very kind, thank you. And I responded below. Hope it posted okay, as things sometimes don't seem to appear in the order I write them.

And I don't get what this *PROFANITY* thing is that keeps popping up.

Errrrr…it seemed like a sociology thesis gone bad, a virtual trip to the zoo, a reason to start a gripe thread about the board, a disingenuous thing wrapped in good grammar.

Oh heavens, not at all! I'm sorry if it came across like that. Not my intent.

I'm in awe of how far you have come to recognizing yourself, and being able to express it openly, when it wasn't just an easy thing to do even just a few years ago.

More power to you, and I wish you all the best.

Thanks!
ETA: I grew up with sarcasm, criticism, and backbiting as the norm, I'm still getting used to genuine compliments.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2023 05:05PM by ookami.

If it involves loud laughter or speaking evil of the Lord's anointed, I'm in.

When the he|| did that happen? I still feel like I'm 25. I lean much further to the right than I did at 25, and now I'm considered a far leftist.

I'd like to thank everyone who took time to reply to my post a couple of days ago.

I was happily surprised at the number of responses I received, all so candid and heartfelt, and at times refreshingly outspoken.

I'm saying this as someone who feels that they don't quite "belong" here on this forum having never been Mormon, or whatever the current acronym is.

Thanks again for your insight, answers to my questions, and opening my eyes even further...it's appreciated!

Not having been Mormon is no barrier to participation on RfM. Some of our most frequent and insightful posters are nevermos.

So if you want to stay, please do so. You are more than welcome.

Thank you, that's reassuring.

I know some of my questions may seem blunt to those who participate here, but there is never an intent on my part to offend, or riducule in any way what you many of you have experienced.

They stem from a bewilderment on my part, and a genuine need to understand.

You come across as straightforward and sincere. A lot of us have been through significant trauma and are consequently skeptically inclined and may suspect irony. I felt a bit that way initially but soon came to think you were as genuine as you appeared. I think ookami went through that process too.

Which is my way of saying that some may doubt you; you may have to be patient and earn some trust. But lots of people have done that and, if you want, you can too.

We frequently benefit from the nevermos. While they may not know a ton about our cult, often they bring their own baggage from similar backgrounds and hence understand us. There are others, meanwhile, whose questions invite us to address old issues in new ways.

So don't presume you have nothing to offer.