Hi everyone, I just came across this website and forum, and good thing I found it too because I am in need of some advice.

Im a student at BYU (male) and I just started as a freshman for summer term. Never served a mission and don’t intend to.

A little background- I graduated high school about 1.5 months ago and thought I would like BYU. I don’t. My parents essentially pressured me into going here, and I want to transfer to the U of U for the fall. I also don’t believe in the church and have broken just about every temple recommend interview rule. I just never have had the balls to tell my parents.

The one thing keeping me here is the promise of a good paying job after college and cheap tuition

Is it worth staying here another 4 years playing 2 face for more money and cheap tuition, or transferring?

I'm afraid you'll be miserable, but there are lots of people there who stay under the radar. They have worthiness interviews and a lot of pressure to play along though. It's not for everyone.

Religion classes are required and not all of them transfer. BYU would be on your diploma forever and you will be judged and embarrassed sometimes because of it.

OTOH, low tuition is a huge factor. I wouldn't blame you. Back in the 70s, BYU was basically the only option my parents would pay for. I was happy to get away from home. I was a good Mormon back then and it was a bit creepy even for me.

My advice is to do whatever you need to do, but work hard and get an education if you can. U of U would be a good option if you can swing it.

You can always come here and complain! Good luck in your life choices.

I would say since you are at the very beginning that the transfer to the U of U is the way to go. Making the change if you decide later will get harder and harder.

I realized the church was a lie when I was a couple of years in at BYU and faking it was pretty much the only reasonable option. I had the extra problem of not being caught being gay. Flying under the radar is an art that will aid you in many parts of your life, though if you stay. If you are like me you will get good and sick of pretending. Having to go to church got really old. Speaking in Sacrament Mtg as a non-believer was weird. This was early 70's. maybe you are not obligated to attend church now?

If you stay at the Y you will find a lot in your position and some great camaraderie can come from that underground.

I would say make your decision based on your goals for your major and who has the best education to offer. If it's the UofU then bite the bullet, tell your parents, and do what you have to do to make it on your own. We were dirt poor so I was used to making it on my own anyway so that is easy for me to say. I always worked at least 30 hours a week to support myself and 60 hour weeks in summer for the next go round. It was tough watching those who got the money from parents.

When your parents finally find out will they feel they have been deceived by you going to the Y as a non-believer? Also if you tell them you don't believe and still go to the Y they will maintain hope that you will finally get a testimony. It's all complicated.

That's all I got for considerations. Good luck.

From my perspective, it depends on "who" you are and where you are on the 'lying' spectrum.

Lying scumbag that I am, I had no problem doing a mission and then attending the Y as a PIMO. This was before the ecclesiastical endorsement, but since I got called to be an EQP, I likely wouldn't have had any problem with that.

If you're not addicted to coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco, or the truth, lying your way through the Y is a piece of cake.

There are people on this board with principles, so you're probably going to hear opinions completely at odds with mine.

I hope that you'll be able to confirm a position on this issue before this topic closes (60 response limit) so that the bet I have with Gladys Lot on which you'll go can be settled...

Sedond that!

What a great reminder that truth is on a need to know basis and no one needs to know. An innocent expression will always be your friend.

The one good thing I got out of Mormonism was a true talent for manipulation. One of the best tools for life, and, can be used for good as well as evil.

> I hope that you'll be able to confirm a position
> on this issue before this topic closes (60
> response limit) so that the bet I have with Gladys
> Lot on which you'll go can be settled...

What Jesus doesn't know is that I used inexpensive options to create a straddle position and go long volatility. So I'll just close out my bet when it's far enough in the money and then head to the Bahamas while he tries to collect, or not, given AS's decision.

Lot's Wife Wrote:

>
> What Jesus doesn't know is that I used inexpensive
> options to create a straddle position and go long
> volatility. So I'll just close out my bet when
> it's far enough in the money


Goddamn I love it when people talk smut here!

Haha. As I said once before, the party doesn't start till the Greeks show up!

Incidentally, one of the great things about option theory is it gives you a framework to evaluate the majority of everyday questions.

It helps make decisions more rational.

What on earth makes you think UofU grads don't get good paying jobs? There are some specialty majors at the Y like animation and some related media fields that are better offerings than the U might have, but overall, the U is at least as good, and for a lot of fields, better.

Plus you don't waste the equivalent of an entire semester taking BYU religion classes. Figure that in to the cost of tuition. You will have to take a bunch of religion classes, which both cost you money for no goods received, and will likely prevent you from taking other useful courses because there are only so many hours in a day.

I stuck it out my last 2 years as a non-believer. I do not recommend it for the whole 4 years. After I walked out of graduation, I have never been back to an LDS chapel except to attend a few funerals.

And I graduated from Weber State and I got a good paying job

Yes, the tuition is inexpensive, but you will pay a price in other respects for that. Let's look at tuition and fees per semester:

BYU (church member): $3,248 for 12 credits or more. There are fees for certain classes beyond that, but those fees won't add to much to your cost.

U of U (resident): 15 credits = $5,143 for freshman and sophomores. Juniors on up pay $5,196. Additional credits will cost you.

Salt Lake City Community College (resident): $2,128.25 for 12-18 credits.

Fifteen credits per semester is a typical load that will get you to graduation (normally you need 120 credits to graduate, which translates to 30 per year, or 15 per semester. I normally liked to take in the 15-18 range. If you keep attending BYU, you will need to take a religion class each semester, which will not transfer. So if you think you might want to transfer, I would advise taking 18 credits.

One idea would be to take as many credits as you are able at your local community college, and then transfer to the U of U. Your community college may partner with the U for transfer purposes. The total cost over four years would still be somewhat more expensive than the Y, but would bring it more into range. You only need to take your last 40 credits at the U, although depending on your major, it might be more than that.

Conversely, you could stay at the Y for as long as you can stand it, and then transfer to the U. Plenty of PIMO (physically in, mentally out) students either do all four years at the Y, or stay there as long as possible and then transfer. Keep in mind that you will likely need to "play the game" to a large extent, i.e. church attendance, etc. depending on your bishop.

Another factor to consider is that you may not want BYU on your resume one day. Also if you ever get kicked out mid-term, you will lose those credits.

Lots to think about. But if you are already tired of BYU in your first summer term, you might want to make your exit sooner rather than later.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2023 01:07PM by summer.

If you get kicked out of any school midterm, you lose the credits for that term, though it is easier to get kicked out of BYU, especially if you are a non-believer, and don't work to hide it.

Transferring is not always easy. The religion credits are useless from the get-go for transferring, but other credits may or may not transfer. For example a course may be a different number of credits at the other school, or their course is sufficiently different that they basically require that you take their course anyway.

So, you might lose a few other credits when transferring, and if you parachute into a major at another school, some of the emphasis in that new department may be different, and they will expect knowledge of material they cover in previous courses and you didn't get the same material in your course. That's not an insurmountable problem by any means, but it is a hurdle.

There is also a drawback with community college in that some majors have very long prerequisite chains for some of their upper division courses, and you need to get started working on that chain your freshman year if you hope to graduate in 4 years. This is particularly true in STEM fields. Engineering is highly regimented all 4 years. In math, calculus is a prerequisite for most other math courses, and calculus itself is a 3 or (more commonly) 4 semester sequence itself.

So, depending on your planned major, you will need to plan and take some major courses if you go to a community college, You can't just take all you general ed courses those first two years.


Side note - the U charges extra if you take over 15 credits? Ouch. Never heard of that practice before. Not that I have paid much attention to tuition practices since I graduated.

>> Side note - the U charges extra if you take over 15 credits? Ouch. Never heard of that practice before. Not that I have paid much attention to tuition practices since I graduated.

I know, right? 18 credits at the U (for freshman and sophomores) brings tuition & fees up to $5,923.72 per semester.

Yes, I agree, if you are planning on transferring schools, you need to keep a close eye on what will likely transfer vs. what won't. From just glancing a the U's website, they have a cool looking online tool that can assist with that. And I know where I live, my community college partners with state schools for a seamless transfer process. Perhaps Utah has something similar in place.

Are you a Utah resident?

It shouldn't be wallet breaking to go to another Utah School. I wouldn't even say you have to tell your parents anything more than...

"I just don't enjoy the campus here and am not having a good experience at BYU. I want to go somewhere else. There's not much for me to do here and I want to go someplace where there is more activities that I may enjoy such as a large city downtown experience and an association with a large hospital and medical community."

Or, something to that effect.

If you are NOT a Utah resident, there are many states that have great schools and if you are an in state resident offer tuition that may be comparable to what you find at BYU. Take a look at your own state's colleges and universities and what the cost is and you may be pleasantly surprised.

Good advice. I assumed that the OP is a Utah resident, but that may not be the case. So four years at an in-state school, or a 2 and 2 arrangement (2 years + of community college, and 2 at a state school,) are also good options.

And there are scholarships, Pell Grants, opportunities to work as a grader or other job opportunities on or off campus. All that makes it difficult to compare costs.

I wanted to add a few thoughts. If your parents are paying, they want to help you. They are doing what they think is best. If you are living at home or not legal age, I recommend you work with them the best you can. You can gradually fade out of the church when you are away from their support and expectations.

Remember that your parents have been taught that they are failures if they have children who leave the church. It's manipulative of the church to do that to families, but they do.

Only you can decide what is best for you, but don't burn any bridges along the way. Work hard and try to find a career that will bring you happiness. Remember that treating your parents well can possibly help with your relationship with them later. Maybe your family would like to help you at U of U or another school. I'm sure they want you to succeed on your life journey and so do we!

"Unto thine own self be true and it must follow, as night follows day, that thou canst not then be false to any man." A mantra of life for me as far as possible but you must be willing to let the chips fall where they may. Family pressures, and tuition checks, might make that hard.

These responses above are all what I'd call true Words of Wisdom, Anon Student, especially to treat your parents well and to be true to yourself. Try to make the best decisions possible in light of that and hopefully you won't feel too pressured to make them too quickly. Take some time, if possible, to work it out.

I hope you won't, in the shorter term and especially in the long run, feel pressured to live less than what is true for you.

Good luck with your studies. Spread your wings. Learn all you can. Check your sources. The world can be an open book to you. Don't cloister yourself, as some would likely advise. That's no way to learn or to arrive at the best choices for oneself.

Keep posting here if you feel like it. A lot of people here have been exactly where you are and reading the experiences of others can be of great help to you.

You may feel pressured at times as things arise, especially major choices you must make, but take a few deep breaths in those moments and clear your head and take enough time to consider all options.

In the end, hopefully you'll make the best choices for your own life. Some of them you won't be able to tell ahead of time how they'll work out, obviously, but glean as much information as possible and then make the wisest choice possible.

Integrity counts for a lot.

Good luck!

I went to both BYU and UofU

In summary this is what I found:

1. BYU, Ensign College, Ricks, BYU Idaho, and others do not transfer well to the UofU. You will end up having to redo classes if you transfer after a couple of years. I had to redo 5 of my classes, even though I had the associates in hand.

2. State Community College credits transfer much better to the UofU. To save money, get a associates (basic) at community college. Take Upper Division at the UoU.

3. You will meet great people at BYU and the UofU. But BYU is stifling when it comes to the religious side. Those religious classes will test your sanity. And I can assure you everyday on the BYU campus you will be saying "what the hell". But I have to admit, for the short time I attended BYU, I had tons of fun, and got many lectures from Bishops and my TBM ward members.

4. I loved the UofU, but I went there with an associates degree in hand. So I was ready for the U's politics and rules. Be assured that State run schools live and die by rules and politics since technically it is a governmental agency.

This seems such good advice. There is tremendous teaching at community colleges, and you will be left to be your own person. I cannot imagine dissembling for four years just to get a badly-thought-of Bachelor's degree. It WILL warp you.

amiable Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I cannot imagine
> dissembling for four years . . . It WILL warp
> you.

My heavens, this resonates. I realize that money--the numbers are frightening--is a major issue, but my first impulse was exactly the same sentiment.

Put simply, I could not conceal my true self for four years. The emotional burden would be unbearable.

Community College classes are small. For a large state university, you are going to be stuck in a large lecture hall for the foundational classes that many students take, i.e. Biology 101/102, Psychology 101/102, etc. And you will have more interaction with the TAs than you will with the professor of the course.

I got my degree from a respected, large state university, but when I later took classes at my local community college that were needed for my teaching certificate, I thought the quality of the CC classes was as good or better than my alma mater.

If you are sponging off mom and dad, I say keep doing it. They pay you to "act Mormon". Why not return the favor by playing along? It's a win-win.

One more thing, young friend.

Be careful of taking on too much student loan debt. What seems manageable while you are a student can quickly become unmanageable once you graduate. When you graduate, you will be paying rent (probably with roommates,) have bills, possibly be paying on a car loan, etc. The several hundred dollars that you will be paying for a monthly student loan payment can become agonzing. And it doesn't go away. In my case, it kept me from getting a better used car and from buying a home for many years. It was crippling.

If you are heading towards a lower paying profession (teaching, nursing, social work, etc.,) then keep it cheap. For business, accounting, law, medicine, or engineering, you will have more of a capacity to pay it off, but I still would advise not letting it get out of control. Also be mindful that you may need graduate school depending on your career path, which can add to your debt woes.

Keep student loans to a minimum! You will be thankful one day that you did.

Super advice!!!!!!!!

Cold hard fact confirmed several times.

Many employers see BYU on your resume and toss it. They're not interested in a BYU graduate.

Remember you need your bishops constant approval to attend.

No mission and he'll probably not approve you at some point.

Good luck to you.

Lots of good advice here but I will add DO NOT TRUST OTHERS with your doubts. Even if they talk and talk about their own disbelief and break rules. Just because they can, or because they feel guilty, people will rat others out. It thrives in mormon culture on every level. It is magnified and glorified at YBU. Keep your cards close so you keep your options open.

Very, very important.

It's a sacred duty for my fellow apologists to royally screw you over in the name of Jesus so you will be super humble and thus you will entrench yourself into being obedient to how the Correlation program works on your mind to think this wondrous way. Then once you've been screwed over and hit rock bottom then you'll be lovingly in the chains of how this wondrous program works and eventually see no way out but to be an obedient servant whose mission in life is to endure to the end. Some fellow apologists might try to sugar coat how they'll screw you over. But they are being deceptive. So, I'm here to just say it to you honestly.

So you might go see the Bishop, tell them everything, and be ready to be screwed over royally. But, those "helping" you will feel good about doing this because it's being done in the name of Jesus. So, if you run into any trouble then remember Jesus's love in the Church is wondrous.

Oh yes. There are horror stories from my day of people who got ratted out by fellow students. I know one who had to sue for his diploma in the end as he was reported right at the end of his four years and they weren't giving it to him. He got press or he wouldn't have caved.

You have to have some good proof of where you were if you didn't go to your campus ward on Sunday. I always said I had gone home to see my parents. But even that is risky. Luckily there is nothing more easy to fake than a testimony.

I was reported once for my hair being too long--touching my collar when I tried to get into the campus movie. Chitty Chitty Bang Bang of all things. Had to see the dean. But I was scared to death as I didn't know what it was about until I got there and there was plenty to be worried about being a heathen and all.

Susan gives good advice here. All mine is from the olden days but I doubt that much has changed.

I seem to recall (from what others have written in the past) that the Honor Code *requires* students to rat out other students who are not following the code. Of course, not all students are going to do that, but you never know who will.

I have several relatives (2 male, 4 female) from one family who graduated from BYU because it was all their family could afford. There were too many kids in that family, and there were no resources to share. I don't think that a BYU education served them well at all. My feeling is that whatever potential they had to grow and achieve was squelched. This was especially true for the girls.

My feeling is get out when you can, and find a way to afford it later on. You will.

BYU is full of two facers. All the world is a stage. If you want to stay at the Y to save money just find some friends who are like you. The place is full of them.

The real world is just one big game. It’s all bullshit. Don’t feel bad about being a hypocrite. Everyone is one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2023 04:18PM by Maude.

I am so jealous of you. When I was 18 I would not allow myself to question Mormonism. Yes, I never liked polygamy but we will find out in the after life. After being married in the temple with 3 children at age 34 I finally resigned from Mormonism because I couldn't do it anymore. Here you are researching the pros and cons of BYU. Most of my life was led by "feelings" because I felt that the church was true. I like your logical approach. How much tithing money could I have saved had I reached the lds church earlier?

My late Mormon father used his money to control his offspring. The stick was the church, and financial help was the carrot. I planted my own carrots.

Anonstudent -- lots of thought-provoking responses here. As a corporate staffer and then long-time community college employee (who has supported many step-children in degree programs), a couple of observations: First, a four-year college degree is no longer a ticket to guaranteed good jobs. Avoid GenEd degree paths (English/communications, history, social studies) like the plague, no matter where you decide to pursue your education. "Business" is marginal. If you want a good-paying job upon graduation, bite the bullet and do accounting, engineering, computer science, or statistics. Don't get an undergrad degree in anything that requires a master's or above for actual employment (i.e. chemistry, biology). Don't incur debt if you can help it. Make a plan (including where you might attend and how much it costs) and then discuss with parents (respectfully and with empathy about their feelings about their heartfelt convictions). I do not think four years of dissembling about your actual beliefs while attending BYU will be emotionally or spiritually healthy for you. However, I think it's OK to not open up to anyone at this point about your doubts. You are still exploring what is right for you, and you do not know where your spiritual path will lead. Best wishes for your future!

If you go to a junior college and live at home, you can kill a couple birds at the same time.

You could get the basics classes covered in smallest classes, knowing they transfer to other state school, Living at home would be less costly, a possible savings point for your parents.

Some draw backs are living with your parents and by their rules and expectations. Though not much different than what life has been.

Good luck, play the game to your strengths.

Most majors are difficult to complete in just two years. Many majors are impossible to complete in two years. Engineering majors are difficult to complete in four years, and there are schools that state outright that engineering is a five year program.

That being the case you need to start taking courses in your major at the CC if that is where you choose to attend the first two years. You need to find out if the CC major courses will give you the needed foundation when you transfer. I would ask about specific CC courses at the school you plan to transfer to.