Last night I woke from a short dream where I was on a second mission to Finland. The real one was 50 years ago. How can such an event - two years of knocking on doors, have affected me so deeply? In the dream I realized I could go immediately back to the US and had the financial means to get a flight. The dream seemed only last about 30 seconds. It woke me and I had some trouble falling back asleep.
I realize the trauma of an extreme introvert trying to convert Finns to a cult is nothing compared to the real trauma of soldiers in combat, such as my son experienced in Afghanistan, yet it still troubles me 5 decades later. When I was a young men's president I did not encourage the youth to go on missions. I know many have had good experiences as missionaries, though I was not one of them. Two years of door knocking and zero converts in a culture that knew better than to associate with us still brings back some unpleasant memories.
I totally agree. Spain was a dead field for most. I'm not introverted so I didn't have the trauma you had. I have had reoccurring dreams every few years though.
It's something like school anxiety dreams, where you realize that you have not attended class and are seriously behind in your work. I'm in my mid-60s, and got those up until just about a year ago!
The nice thing, Eric, is that you realized in your dream that you could go home. That's taking back your power.
I have all kinds of dreams. Like Summer, it can be school, work, church, etc. Last night I had a dream the engine blew up in my car and I was stranded. Something triggers the dream, through an experience or something you read or heard.
My dream last night was because I have a bunch of managers who want to make our new software look just like the old software. But software is developed to work a certain way, and most software companies do not customize their package for just one company. Thus the dream of my engine blowing up, and I was stranded. Because when can you get senior managers to listen to you?
Over the weekend my wife played a video of a couple we know who's son just got his mission call. On the video everybody was screaming and shouting in joy as he read it out loud.
All I could do was cringe, that night I had a dream that I was trapped and knew how to get out, but somehow the mechanism to free me would not unlatch.
SoCal Apostate Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I would speculate that it would fit the definition > of PTSD, although quite a mild version of it.
Yes. I was going to say this too, about PTSD. Not sure of the ranking in terms of severity - mild, moderate, extreme - may fluctuate between for some, all depending on personality, beliefs and experiences.
The everybody's-got-to-go mindset of the mission system is appalling in its certainty of being exactly precisely the absolute wrong thing for some people.
I'm still appalled at some of the glimpses I got, as a con-vert, of the mission mindset held by MPs, bishops and other members.
I've mentioned before the exceptionally negative experience I had when one of the sister missionaries became ill and the MP was furious at me for trying to get her appropriate medical help. As an outsider, it's completely mind-blowing, especially as I worked in the medical field. But you don't have to be a medic to know when someone is in desperate need of prompt medical intervention. I couldn't even comprehend the MPs objections and even now am still stunned by it.
The same with missionaries being hungry. That is abuse, plain and simple. Absolutely no need for that.
Then to find out that some or even many of them don't even want to be there or, worse, (as someone they were preaching to) don't even believe what they're hawking - it's completely awful.
I can totally understand why someone would have negative flashbacks to their two mandated years of hellishness, no matter how much time has passed. The brain remembers things we would wish to forget.
I think too that it is harmful to one's inner core to be forced to go out and pretend to believe something you don't actually have faith in at all.
I was having a meal out with some missionaries one time and they were discussing an elder who had been sent home for inappropriate conduct. My eyes teared up when I heard about it and one of them asked me "Why are you crying?" For me it was because I thought of all the negativity attached to such an occurrence, especially for him for the rest of his Mormon life, as well as not having a positive opinion of the whole mission system. For them it was like oh well, another one bites the dust - a frequent occurrence.
It's too much of a major life intrusion to impose on youth, especially when the experiences and consequences that arise from those two years may taint the rest of their lives, even if they leave the church, as with exmo RMs who experience flashbacks and/or nightmares.
That is trauma.
The church system and its acolytes cause that and are responsible for the consequences but of course they will never accept that, admit it or change their system.
Their responsibility.
An ex-mishie's bad dreams.
:(
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2023 02:01PM by Nightingale.
Nightingale Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > SoCal Apostate Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > I would speculate that it would fit the > definition > > of PTSD, although quite a mild version of it. > > Yes. I was going to say this too, about PTSD. Not > sure of the ranking in terms of severity - mild, > moderate, extreme - may fluctuate between for > some, all depending on personality, beliefs and > experiences.
I am sure that you are correct about the severity of it varying by individual. For me it was only a bit of anxiety stacked on top of my already anxious nature. For others that I know, it was a bit worse. I would be quite surprised to learn that it was not a LOT worse for some others.
Those second mission nightmares plagued me for over 20 years. They've mostly stopped but sometimes one will still pop up. What I hate about those nightmares are the feelings of helplessness and dread I experienced the moment I walked into the MTC and just about everyday of my mission. Just the thought of being called on another mission will conjure up those feelings.
I had the back on the mission dreams my whole life and I've been back for over 52 years as well. I haven't had one for about 7 or 8 years now so I hope this doesn't trigger them again.
They are very unsettling as they seem to be a marker for how much the Mormonism had been burrowed into our minds. I think in order to do a mission you have to bury a lot of your natural self very deep--especially if you go at the mission "religiously" as I did. So our subconscious is still asking, "What the hell just happened?" after all these years.
The only thing for me is they weren't as bad as the Satan Coming For Me nightmares.
And I really really feel for the Veterans of Wars. I had it easy.
My wife's late mother, an incredible woman who, at 21, was deported to Ravensbrück for acts of resistance and forced to make shells for use by the German army, told me that she still dreamed of the camp every night 60 years later. Trauma will out.
When we were kids we used to have to wake my dad up from accross the room by calling him because he often woke up fighting. He was in the Battle of Leyte in WWII and was one of the first to make it to shore after thousands before him didn't.
I've never heard it put quite like that, but your formulation makes a lot of sense.
Missionaries are told their former selves were wrong and must be eradicated. We spend years trying to suppress our personalities and needs and strengths to fit into an unnatural and inhumane pattern. It's almost like a self-administered lobotomy by people who don't know how to use a metaphorical scalpel. Could that not produce PTSD that manifests for decades afterwards?
Missions aren't comparable to at least the worst of what happens to soldiers in war, but they are emotionally violent and stretch over long periods of time.
Dear Eric, having been to Finland and stayed with our wonderful Finnish friends, I'm not surprised your mission was awful. Finnish people are very aware of the need for personal space and you had to go door to door, invading everyone's personal space... I suspect I can't imagine quite HOW awful it was.
My last one was such a doozy. Instead of a letter, it was a phone call and the former MP asshat was on the phone. "Elder Goop, I want you on a plane immediately. The lord needs you to serve."
I was stuttering, But my wife...my job...
MP "Doesn't matter. I already cleared your calling with your family and employer. I hope you've been keeping up with your Spanish over the years, but this time you need to learn Portugues. This time you'll do it right (implied that I had wasted my time the first time- which was repeated to me on several occasions by the MP and stake president).
I was told that I would be paired with a former missionary companion who hated my guts.
And even my wife sold me up the river. In the dream she had packed my suitcase and threw in some of her bottom temple garments with the promise of ordering some men's temple garments later on.
I think the best part of this ordeal was how this was going to make an incredible report for RfM- Church is so desperate to call ex missionaries, even apostate ones!
The architecture and art. Temppeliaukio Church is one of the most moving buildings I have ever seen; the way it . . . exists. . . in its natural environment and brings together the earth, people, and the heavens is transportive. Of course the "church" is also about as agnostic as one can get and still claim religiosity, which may be part of its appeal.
Helsinki Cathedral and Senate Square. Not only is the building gorgeous, but there is a farmer's market/art fair held there weekly. In that square long ago I bought three hand-painted decorative vases united by a color scheme (browns, green, night sky) and the motif of wolves howling at the summer moon. The art is subtle, restrained, minimalist in the way Finland/Estonia shares with Japan.
Then a couple of years ago our family visited again and it happened to be on Saturday? Sunday?--anyway, the day when the outdoor market was open. Walking through the stalls and displays I came upon some very similar ceramic offerings and asked the proprietess if she would have been there two decades before. She smiled and answered yes and we shared a laugh as she told me that particular imagery still haunts her.
And the city itself is beautiful. There are the union domes that bring to mind St. Petersberg, the solid buildings in unusual colors that resemble Copenhagen and Stockholm, the ruins that seem to imply a connection to Upsalla and Visby, and then superimposed on it all the disciplined minimalism that I love so much.
It's a wonderful place and a wonderful culture although it must have been so very difficult to serve a mission there.
Finland is highly esteemed by educators worldwide for its excellent public schools. The country does a great job educating its students, and does so in a humane manner with frequent, outdoor breaks. Teaching there is a respected. competitive job that pays very well.
I have them only rarely anymore. As a bonus, for the last 10 years or so I am, in the dream, fully aware that the mission leaders have no power over me, and I can do what I want.
It didn't used to be like that. Those weren't dreams, they were nightmares.
and if I had been male I don't think I would have gone. I had a huge problem with homesickness.
BUT I had dreams about the fact I had two kids to raise and no husband. I'd finally realize I had my husband, but the he left. So . . . It is good we get along so well nowadays.
WHEN my son was in high school, we were working really hard to get him through. I'd have dreams about being in high school and I couldn't figure out why I hadn't graduated yet. After my son graduated, I quit having the dreams.
I have no doubt my dreams like this are from trauma. Too bad we can't control our dreams.
Some memories have the potential to be vivid, even after decades. Like you, I appreciate the fact that I never had to participate in war (like my father and brother who were both combat veterans), but my mission is a profound memory. Fortunately, I haven’t had a dream about it for many years, but I regret giving up two years of my youth, and experiencing physical, mental, and emotional damage, all to sell a lie.
Has anyone ever filed a law suit against the Mormon church for poor medical care, lack of proper nutrition, mental and physical abuse, basic slavery etc?
In today's litigious society and the thousands of possible cases there should be many outstanding cases.
A non-devout missionary (See photo of me) would not be stressing him/herself so that he/she/me would not be positioned to suffer poor medical care, lack of proper nutrition, mental & physical abuse, basic slavery, etc.
So the devout kids suffer the mental and physical damages, get home still suffering, try to pray themselves better, and then spend years being poor examples...probably thinking that it was all their fault for not being righteous enough.
If they do get around to thinking that the church has done them dirty and deserves to be forced to pay, the statute of limitations has likely run, and they are now SOL.
It's probable that there are situations in which the junior companion is completely powerless, but I don't think any such personality type is posting here on RfM; you have to have a somewhat robust psyche not to be run off this platform by the likes of Gladys Lot and her crew of Mean Girl, ne'er-do-wells... Talk about the suffering she tries to put us through! Can you say, Second Annoying?
I had two companions who became APs (probably not the caliber of our Rainbow Boy, but still...) and had no trouble keeping up with them; they were still human.
Most of us (all the elders I served with) had the money necessary to eat well. It makes zero sense to me that facing the math, X dollars for a month's food = 3/4's of a month's meals, I'd be asking SOMEONE for more money and not thinking that Jesus wants me to go hungry. Is the MP going hungry?
> . . . you have to have a somewhat robust > psyche not to be run off this platform by the > likes of Gladys Lot and her crew of Mean Girl, > ne'er-do-wells... Talk about the suffering she > tries to put us through! Can you say, Second > Annoying?
Now, now, Heather. It was your cousin who first opined that we were two aspects of the same god-forsaken entity and, as you no doubt recall, our therapist concurred, adding only that I was the more intelligent and attractive one while you, for obvious reasons, would uniquely never be in danger of chaffing.
And remember, Heather, what that woman said when obtaining the restraining order:
"Your honor, please tell Heather that a woman's got to know her limitations."
--Dollie Parton, after having attempted a full marathon
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2023 12:07AM by Lot's Wife.
I know what you mean but can't agree with invoking the S word even to describe Mormon missions.
It can be challenging and is certainly close to, if not totally mandatory for Mormon males (according to their parents' wishes even if not hammered home by bishops etc). We often read here how tough a mission can be and was for many posters.
It's appalling, and nearly unbelievable, to think of young Mormons essentially not having a choice about whether to go on a mission or not, including the accounts of not having enough to eat or enough funding in general (both of which I've personally witnessed) as well as being exposed to perhaps life-changing illnesses or circumstances (in a negative way).
But not 'slavery' - or am I being (as often) too literal?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2023 11:54PM by Nightingale.
summer Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The mission experience meets all cult > characteristics as well.
Yes, I agree with that.
I did know missionaries who broke major rules though so it's possible to get out from under the attempts at mind control. As also demonstrated by the numbers of RMs who end up leaving the church.
Not that I think it's a good situation for anybody, seemingly toeing the line but behind the scenes breaking major rules. I found that disturbing, preaching to someone in one moment, discounting the message the next by choice.
I understand that they're young, likely first time away from the close supervision and expectations of home, with years of church programming invested in them. Before they get a chance to properly differentiate themselves from their parents' nest and the church's program they're stuck in this mandatory hellishness the church calls a 'voluntary' mission, which it always seemed to me was at least as much a solidifying attempt to entrench the missionary into lifelong Mormonism as to attract converts although the more the merrier when it comes to tithes of course.
I posted pretty much this same thing years ago, similarly having had to attend classes about recognizing human trafficking (43 years combined military and Civil Service). Having worked in US embassies and consulates for 22 of those years, I learnt that it is illegal for a mission president to confiscate your passport, even under the guise of "protecting its loss." The passport is property of the US Government, in the care of the holder, not the MP. The church's reason is to prevent a missionary from bolting. There is a tool for that, but it's almost secret, or at least difficult to find out about. Number 1., a missionary has only to go to the closest embassy or consulate, and describe what happened. The embassy/consulate will have serious speaks with the MP, and will instruct him to return all the passports. This is because the laws of almost all countries giving temporary residence to a foreigner demand that the foreigners always have their passports on their person, unless they have a formal card from the host nation stating their status, purpose, and length of stay-- much like a "green card."
Number 2.), if a missionary really does want to bolt and fly home, he or she has only to report that they've lost their passport, and apply for a one-time passport waiver that will at least get them home. As I've said in another thread, this kind of strict control is a more recent thing; it wasn't like this in the 1960's and -70's. And since the church is such a narcissistic organization, they always feel that they're in the right, even while operating illegally.
I actually knew a member in Italy (back in the 1960's) who finished his mission, then applied for another one when he returned, and was accepted. I've only seen this one example of a young man going on two missions, more or less back to back.
Talking about missionary experiences and their effect on missionaries afterwards, in 1963 at the age of 16 I went on a mission for my Church. My living quarters for the first three years was a small room (we referred to them as 'cells') shared with four other 'Novices'.
We were awakened each morning at 6am by our Novice-master. He would knock on the door, uttering 'Benedicamus Domino' to which we were required to respond 'Deo Gratias!' If you failed to wake up immediately and give the response you would be in trouble. It was said that if you failed to utter 'Deo Gratias' on 3 occasions after the 'Benedicamus Domino' then you might be sent home.
The rest of the day involved labouring on the farm, spiritual reading and prayer. 'Particular'friendships' with other novices were forbidden, as one was to save such a friendship for God.
Once a month all novices went down into a cellar beneath the main building or 'Novitiate' and each novice would kneel down and confess the faults (not sins) which he had committed during the previous month. A fault would be speaking during the 'Great Silence' (9pm - 7am) or of eating anything outside the official meals (breakfast, dinner or 5pm tea). Sometimes we would only know that a novice had been sent home when we noticed that his cell was empty. One guy joined the Congregation on a Thursday and was sent home on the following Monday morning. I was witness to his dismissal. The Novicemaster entered this guy's cell who was 17 and told him that he would be getting the train at 9am. The guy (newcomers were referred to as 'Postulants') said 'why' and was simply told 'You're going home', after which the Novicemaster just walked away from him. Very harsh when you think of the expense his parents had occurred in preparing their son financially for his future.
So, LDS folk, how does this compare with the Missionary Training Center or the proselytizing? I stayed in this medieval congregation for 5 years, and apart from recurring nightmares I'm as sound as a bell - as everyone who knows me will tell you.
In mormonism, we have a situation we call "Bishop Roulette" meaning that different bishops handle the same 'sin' in what can be vastly different manners.
I had sex and confessed it and was given a complete pass (because the girl was not mormon) while a compatriot from high school had her life completely turned upside down by the loss of her chastity (not that I'd left much of it intact before we graduated...).
Is there a thing in Catholicism as knowing, and choosing, the better priest to whom one should confess?