Im hearing more and more about the right to lie defense when a politician and now even journalist get in trouble.
Is lying now a value to many?
Some believe “if you are not cheating you are not trying.”
Is it if you are not lying you are not loyal?
I hate the defense “everyone lies.” As if it makes it okay. A member of the stake presidency used such argument with me. The problem was that in the past when you were caught in a lie you paid a price. Now it seems not only perfectly acceptable but seen as some sort of expectation to lie and there is a reward for doing it.

I don’t want to comment on politicians or journalists, but keeping with the intent of this board: in mormonism, lying just seems to be the way things are done.

Do youth want to deal with the shame of what might be revealed in a bishop’s interview? Sometimes being less than truthful keeps things from being uncomfortable.

On my mission, I witnessed someone paying the price for being honest, while others were praised and promoted.

As a Ward clerk, I finally succumbed to the pressure from the Stake Clerk and just started reporting numbers that I knew he’d accept.

Mission presidents who want to take the next step to regional or general authority, are going to report the numbers that the GAs want to see.

By the time someone rises to general authority, stretching the truth is already second nature.

I don't know about being a value but it is completely common of course. Kind of the nature of the beast. Used in all sorts of situations. Sometimes a lie can even be kinder than the truth (depending on the situation and the motivation).

It sounds like that member of a Mormon stake presidency accepts it as a fact of life and perhaps (likely) even does it himself (I nearly said him- or her- self but obviously that wouldn't apply in the world according to Mormons, haha).

Re the defense that "everyone lies" - it is kinda true, right?

Doesn't make it right of course, just true.

Motivations could be positive in some instances but likely most often are less than that.

I don't think this reality should mean we should just accept it and start viewing lying as a good thing. But how to make it change for the better?

I do completely despise lies and those who utilise them when they are hurtful, self-serving, and worse.

For instance, church leaders knowing they're not telling the truth but interacting in such a way as to manipulate people and events in order to achieve their desired outcome. Eg: Those who will say ANYTHING to get a person baptised, or to get a young BIC to go on a mission.

Don't miss out on the best 2 years of your life.
Getting baptised will bring you so many blessings.

Etc
Etc
Etc
&
Etc

A lie is what happens when your delusion is not the same as my delusion.

Some delusions are more trouble than they are worth, so I left the church. It was called a ward for a reason.

I think it all falls under "the ends justify the means" when it comes to doing what you have to do.

Whether it is doing it for Jesus or doing it for your boss, you lie when necessary if the consequences are too great if you refuse. (Who wants to wake up with a horse head in your bed?)

If you need to convince yourself or others of a narrative you need to be true, repetition of a lie is a proven winning tactic. I think more people realize that now than ever before.

I don't think telling the truth is associated with integrity when hypocrisy overshadows it.

I love escaping consequences by responding to a question with an answer that isn't a lie but doesn't reveal the truth.

Thus, had I stayed "faithful," I would have been the church's first Brown Apostle.

Hopefully, in some other The Cat Universe, I am!

elderolddog Wrote:
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> I love escaping consequences by responding to a
> question with an answer that isn't a lie but
> doesn't reveal the truth.

I couldn't agree more.

Like that time when you asked if your cankles were unattractive and I answered enthusiastically, "Are you kidding? Cankles are the new orange!"

I'll have you know cankles are an advantage when it comes to Pioneer Women wagon pulling races.

Well, then I'd better start building mine up. After all, I want that golden bonnet trophy!

Bart Simpson said: "All lies are True in Heaven"

In Mormonism, the end justifies the means.

Faith promoting rumors, promises about treasure in heaven, and anything else that protects myths or leaders.

But if you have to lie, why?

Lying seen / understood for what it is cascades down to the Rank-and-File to get what the individuals wish when they can, the leaders have set that example and the members have caught on/followed that example.


'The Beat Goes On'

It is funny how being under oath with the penalty of perjury answers get changed from their original? If you could choose someone in the church to have to be put under oath with penalty of perjury who would it be and what would you like to ask them?

There have been times in my working life when I've told a boss what they wanted to hear, because the truth would not be an acceptable answer. I imagine it works the same way in church.