"...from what ... was described as a yet-to-be-determined medical condition."

The missionary became "unresponsive early Saturday morning and attempts to revive him were unsuccessful."

I saw this on my phone, credited to Deseret.com.

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2024/03/03/19-year-old-lds-missionary-dies/

19 years old. Not what you hope for, or expect, when you set off on your church mission.

So young. So sad.

    If only "The Faithful" knew that he'd been complaining of 'symptoms' and had been following the routine orders to pray and be faithful rather than being seen by someone competent, we may never know that this was another situation that reached an unfavorable result because of, basically, a cheap, uncaring church doing as little as financially possible for their free labor pool.

Don't cheap out on the Extra Virgin olive oil and try to get old Beehive Clothing garments that were made in USA.

I realize this is not going to play well here, but it is likely safer going on a mission than not, if for no other reason, it keeps young men out of cars for a couple years.

The death rates for US males 15-24 is 122 per 100,000 per year. For females, it is 45 per 100,000 per year. The difference I assume is basically testosterone poisoning. Men do stupid stuff.

So, 70,000 missionaries, mostly male, let's say there are 50,000 young male missionaries. There should be 60 male deaths a year, 8 or 9 female deaths, or more than 1 per week. The number of missionaries dying is nowhere near that high.

Yes, death rate also varies by ethnicity. The Black death rate is about a third higher than the white rate, but white is still the largest single group in the US, so correcting for ethnicity, the white male death rate for that age group is probably around 100 per 100,000. That would still be 50 male missionaries per year dying, to have an average death rate for white male 20 year olds.

Whatever medical deficiencies there are in the missionary program, statistically, it is pretty obviously safer than not going.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/241572/death-rate-by-age-and-sex-in-the-us/
the CDC has enough similar charts and tables to stun an ox, if you're interested in going down that rabbit hole.


On a related note, I had to hunt up a new doctor 2 years ago because mine is serving an LDS medical mission in Thailand, providing medical service/consulting to missionaries in several missions in SE Asia. He had a nice Jewish name. Who knew he was LDS? Oy.

> Whatever medical deficiencies
> there are in the missionary
> program, statistically, it is
> pretty obviously safer than
> not going.

Imagine how safe it would be if they got 'normal' medical attention!

I agree with EOD. First, many times missionaries are in third world countries with sub-par living conditions and medical care. Plus we've heard so many stories of missionary medical problems that were overlooked.

And young people not on missions don't have medical problems that are overlooked?

Fewer kids on missions die than similar age group in the general population. That makes it kind of hard to claim kids shouldn't go on missions because it is too dangerous. Too dangerous compared to what? There is no idyllic world where people don't die from either stupid or preventable causes.

Can the church do better? Sure. Are missions excessively dangerous? Not that I can see, Not having a car to drive, and having a permanent chaperone tied to you are pretty good safety features preventing you from doing stupid stuff. Most of the life-threatening things that have happened in my life did not happen on my mission. There was that one case of food poisoning that put me in the ER overnight in Brazil. Two liters of glucose and a bed all night. $35. If you are going to get sick, try to do it overseas.

misplaced



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2024 12:22AM by Brother Of Jerry.

> Can the church do better?  Sure.


Now how hard was that!?



I went to one ER, one optometrist and one dentist during my two years in Mexico.

I never had the slightest notion regarding 'mission rules' pertaining to our health.

I had one junior companion who got in a fight with a machete-wielding truck driver and required stitches and because I knew of no rules, I never bothered to mention it to the anyone, other than the police officer who wanted to know what happened, before he took a bribe (una mordida) from the truck driver to let him go...

>> And young people not on missions don't have medical problems that are overlooked?

When I was in college, my student health center was a three minute walk from my dorm. I was over there as much as I wanted. Compare that with missionaries who were far from home, and who were denied appropriate medical care by those in charge. We've heard a number of stories of RMs who suffered for years after their return home due to neglect on their missions.

While one of my kids was on their mission, they were in a missionary vehicle struck by a tractor-trailer. He was lucky and got away with minor injuries. From the photos, it looked like the truck driver had tried veering away as the tractor-trailer flipped over in a field next to the accident scene. I did not receive a call from the mission and only found out about this several days later in an email from my son. No call from the mission. They got a call from me. My son was due to come home several weeks later and asked me not to pursue it further. He had two other injuries before that on his mission, like a knee injury that made it almost impossible for him to get around, and he was told to work through them. We found out about those months after they had happened.

I would take exception to your postulate. I paid for my mission president's fear of raising red flags in Salt Lake and not sending me home when the doctors told him I needed rest and medical care. My doctor in Salt Lake eventually found the right General Authority to get me a dishonorable illness discharge. The lack of care I got caused me problems for several years afterward. My doctor in US ( who was the personal doctor of several GAs) said I was very lucky they got me out of the mission. Statistically it may be safer but you don't want to be one of the unlucky statistics where their priesthood discernment is involved.

>Statistically it may be safer but you don't want to be one of the unlucky statistics where their priesthood discernment is involved.

No, statistically you don't want to be that unlucky person. On the other hand, you do want to be the missionary who didn't get mugged because he was not out at night (or even daytime) alone, or who didn't fall asleep and drove into a tree, or who didn't have a drug overdose and die. Those are the people who were saved from death because they were on a mission. The catch is you will never know who those people are, because you can only tabulate deaths that didn't happen statistically. The unfortunate missionaries that did die, we know exactly who they are.

You can't just count one side of the equation. There are people who died because of decisions made by the mission hierarchy. And there are people who didn't die because of that same mission hierarchy, who would have died had they stayed home.

So, are you saying, “Go on a mission - it keeps you out of trouble”?

ETA: I guess my point is that serving a mission can be harmful in unquantifiable ways. There’s got to be a better way to keep young adults (using the term “adult” verrrrrry loosely) safe. And I’ve seen missionaries driving in Auburn, WA, so, I dunno how many are actually kept off the road.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2024 12:53AM by Beth.

I got chased through a train station, jumping over the tracks and platforms by a looney drunk with a knife who was going to slit my throat. I kind of doubt that would have happened if I had stayed at Utah State studying.

I got rescued by a very tough Roma guy who used to pan handle at the train station, he came up behind the guy with a knife and took him out with some punches to the back of his head. When we were questioned about this by our Mission President, my companion said the Roma guy who we talked to a lot was obviously one of the Three Nephites.

When they say don't reveal the signs and tokens, they mean it.

The stake had an assigned doctor to perform missionary physicals. I didn't know and my mom had set one up through her HMO (Kaiser Permanente). Back then it was a major royal PITA to set up an appointment because they had some 7 or 8 phone lines for some 15K patients. You would wait on the phone for an hour or more just to be transferred to a person to access their early computerized patient management. Someone in the ward asked my mom if she had contacted Dr Duenothin as he was considered to be the ideal missionary doctor to perform a physical for young people serving a mission.

I had never been to his medical office before. He had a homemade sign in the window because he moved frequently from leased office space. His physical consisted of the following:

Walking the length of hallway and being asked if my feet or hips hurt. I was asked if I could run away if being chased by dogs.

My eye exam. He led me to a closet and asked me to go inside. It was dark and he closed the door behind me. He let me stay inside for a minute. He then opened the door and watched me walk out of the closet. He asked two questions: What did you see in the dark? What did you see when I opened the door?

He asked me if I had suffered a heart attack or stroke.

And that was it for 5 dollars.

I have no words.

You have been through the wringer, darling. You really have.

I have long advocated that missionaries should be screened while in the mission field twice. One about 6 months in and another 1 year later.

I had a companion who went home to die less than a month upon arriving home~ pancreatic cancer. There was a bishop who knew of the elder and his only comment was that it was a shame that the elder would forever remain a servant because he died single. I personally resented his comments and wanted to tell him to fuck off. (And I was a believing member who disagreed with McConkie and his Mormon Doctrine). A simple health screening with proper labs would have detected that his organs were not functioning.

Instead, he likely had a quack sign off on his physical~ this young man suffered gran mal seizures as an epileptic. He was ALWAYS assigned to ride a bicycle (with predictable bike crashes) until a good thinking district leader and myself cornered the mission president to place him in a mission vehicle (he was a non-driver and I was the permanent junior companion driver).

I still lament his passing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2024 03:23PM by messygoop.

That's truly awful, messy.

I don't know the stats re age but your companion seems very young to be struck by such a serious illness. If he died of pancreatic cancer so soon after the completion of his mission he must have had symptoms during his mission, as you surmise.

The top risk factors for developing ca pancreas include smoking, alcohol use, physical inactivity, obesity, hypertension and high cholesterol levels.

Highly likely that as a Mormon missionary he didn't smoke or drink and young to have blood pressure or cholesterol issues.

Another risk factor is genetics. Maybe it was a medical issue within his family.

Still, there would likely have been symptoms and, as you say, a relatively basic medical evaluation should have detected that he needed further investigation and a ticket home to be assessed and treated by the appropriate medical practitioners.

It is a very tough diagnosis and at some point he likely would still have succumbed but at least he would have had whatever comfort and time that proper medical treatment could offer.

It was the strangest of strange things to me when as a "convert" who knew a lot of missionaries I noted that church leaders were surprisingly, and mystifyingly, reluctant to access medical treatment for those in need of it. I've told the story here before (a few times) about a sister missionary who seemed deathly ill to me who was just left to suffer needlessly with her symptoms that obviously indicated medical treatment was required. I ended up taking her to my own GP who wanted to admit her to hospital but she was reluctant to go because of ... - I knew not why - but later I surmised it must be some kind of mission rule ??? At least my MD could give her an Rx that warded off whatever dread infection she had developed. She would likely have needlessly had way worse health issues without the Rx. I was mystified at the reluctance of the sis mish, her comps, the elders and the MP to get her to a physician.

I'm so sorry you lost your friend in that way. Fortunately for this sis mish, she did recover but man - Just. Plain. Weird.

Is it some misguided unknown doctrine that suffering begets godliness or something?

Ridiculous!

NG

I think the reluctance to seek medical attention stems from the belief that one is never closer to god than when serving a church mission. Many of them truly believe that they are giving into the natural man, which is an enemy to god. It's a lack of faith.

I served with another missionary (a genuine prick) who jumped over a fence and was bitten in the ass from the dog. A sign was posted "Beware of dog. No Trespassing." He didn't seek medical help. Eventually, he couldn't get his butt out of bed and do his daily body building (This was Elder Studd who I wrote about hauling his personal weights and gym equipment).

I had no choice to call the mission office (and Studd told me from his bed that he would personally kick my ass for calling the mission president). I was considered untrustworthy, so they sent the zone leader to verify my claim that Studd needed immediate medical attention. Studd recovered but I had been transferred by the time he was released from the hospital.

I had other companions who were extremely sick and bedridden for days. They thought it would be lack of faith to seek medical help.

Oh forgot to mention that the MP was upset with me for not giving Elder Studd a priesthood blessing.

This is back in the late 70s. A guy who lived in the dorms on the same floor as I did visited his girlfriend the following summer as he was getting ready to leave on his mission. He was not feeling well, and since his girlfriend had a doctor's appointment, he went along to get looked at. It turned out he had lymphoma. What I learned later from mutual friends is that he did manage to go on his mission, returned early, and died shortly after that. I don't know the treatment details he may or may not have received or if his departure date was delayed. Some held up his story as being an example of great faith. F__k this church.

I can't imagine how painful it would be to have a child or loved one die while "serving" a mission.

I wonder what the statics show for the mental health trauma of serving a mission compared to not serving a mission (for 18- 20 year olds). I'm pretty sure that those who serve missions suffer more psychological trauma than if they hadn't served a full-time mission. I suffered from night terrors on my mission, along with the depression that came from knocking on doors all day long. My mission president sent me to a doctor who recommended that I take two weeks off. That wasn't an option. I continued knocking on doors and endured to the end.

One of the elders in my mission was sent home early for having a girlfriend. He committed suicide shortly after returning home in disgrace. I wonder how many suicides are the result of missions.

As far as non-fatal physical trauma, I'm sure staying home would result in fewer parasites, etc. I and 8 other missionaries were sick for months from contracting a parasite while "serving" in a safe European country. The mission president heard about what happened to us but didn't send us to a doctor for antibiotics. My companion fell off a curb and broke her ankle and then was bitten by a dog that required a painful shot. One of the APs broke his ankle playing soccer on a P-Day.

"In 2023, seven Latter-day Saint missionaries were known to have died while filling volunteer proselytizing assignments for the church."

"Volunteer" my ass.

on his mission. He was the youngest of the kids. This guy was a really good friend of my dad's and the whole family knew my dad well. He was the perfect one to sell the farm to.

Anyway, his son was in New Mexico. My sister lived in Ramah for 5 years teaching. My aunt was there on a couples mission. So we had a long talk with them and they asked my aunt and sister to go through his pictures on his camera so they could know what it was.

He had obtained permission to go home a month early because they were having a huge family union, but at the last minute, he decided to stay as he felt that is what God would want him to do. He was in a car accident. It happened to be that the SP was someone my sister and BIL knew really well.

I can't even begin to imagine going through all that. They have a monument at the farm for him.

I never was comfortable with the whole idea, but I had to have a returned missionary. I lived it all because they "promise" you that (per my PB) that I would not be called to suffer unduly at any time). I lived afraid all my life and sure enough, I did something obviously according to them and they still think I didn't do my job. My daughter told my son that she thinks I gave up on her dad. HA HA HA She said that just after she went back to church at 21.

I didn't know where I'd be when my kids were old enough to go, but I told my son he wasn't going. My daughter almost went and wasn't going to tell me, but I figured it out. She didn't say anything and I figured it out. She didn't go.

They take the kids away from the family at a time I think kids need a lot of support from the family.

A lot of young people have been dying "suddenly". A fifteen year old died of a heart attack at my local high school last year. Maybe it's the inactive lifestyle so many people have now?

His obit showed up online today: https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/name/mack-chappell-obituary?id=54535420

It's ten days now since he "died suddenly in his sleep..."  (Has anyone been known to die slowly in their sleep?)

This appears to be another instance where the possibility exists that the death could have been either prevented or wouldn't have even been a possibility but for being on a mission and under the loving control/grasp of an MP...

The church very much prefers that we not know.

Beth asked me a question about halfway up the thread that I just saw. Rather than answer up inn the middle of the thread where nobody will see it, I'll copy her post here:

>So, are you saying, “Go on a mission - it keeps you out of trouble”?

>ETA: I guess my point is that serving a mission can be harmful in unquantifiable ways. There’s got to be a better way to keep young adults (using the term “adult” verrrrrry loosely) safe. And I’ve seen missionaries driving in Auburn, WA, so, I dunno how many are actually kept off the road.


No, I'm not saying go on a mission, it keeps you out of trouble. There are plenty of reasons to not go on a mission. What I am saying is "don't go on a mission because it is too dangerous" is not one of them, even though that exact sentiment is expressed here pretty regularly.

Yes, there are some risks to going on a mission. There are also risks to being a normal, run of the mill 20 year old. A considerably smaller percentage of 20YO missionaries die than 20 YO comparable run of the mill white Americans. That's a pretty objective measure that indicates that missions are not that dangerous.

Could they be made less dangerous? Sure. Should there be better medical care? Sure. But even lacking that, they are not that dangerous, compared to life in general. I read somewhere (here?) that there were 7 missionary deaths in 2023. That's about 1 death per 10,000 missionaries per year.

How many of you went to your tenth HS reunion and found out that a small handful of your classmates were dead? And that's out of just a few hundred people.

People are notoriously bad at assessing risk. That's why there are people who are afraid of flying, but think nothing of driving to the airport, a far riskier endeavor.

Warren Buffet made a career out of being good at assessing business risk, and made himself a ton of money be being better at it than most people. Actuaries are rigorously trained to be good at assessing risk, and get paid very well because they are good at it.

If you want to know how dangerous climate change is where you live, ignore the politicians. Look at your homeowners insurance rates over the last decade.


Re missionaries and cars - in some missions, zone leaders and APs might have cars, but as far as I know the grunts do not, and in a lot of missions (like the one I went to) none of the missionaries had cars. I did know a guy who went to a Navaho mission and had a horse.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> People are notoriously bad at assessing risk.
> That's why there are people who are afraid of
> flying, but think nothing of driving to the
> airport, a far riskier endeavor.

As an aside, OT 'n all that:

The thing is, I'm horribly terribly afraid of flying. I don't like heights. At all. Also, claustrophobia - yikes. High up, squished in, can't get out, not pleasant.

If something happens while driving, well at least you're already on Planet Earth.

Flight 370 is a most unfortunate example. Experts were talking about it again the other day. First time I've heard the detail that apparently it was later clocked on radar(?) as having flown around for 7 hours before disappearing. Long time to cope with knowing something is amiss and you're far from land. (If that detail is true. I don't want to look it up).

I know it's not logical. But it's a feeling thing. Terra firma for me, thankyouverymuch.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2024 06:58PM by Nightingale.

> I did know a guy who went
> to a Navaho mission and
> had a horse.

Back in the day, the #10 envelope with our mission call (signed by David O. McKay) included a list of things we were to bring to our mission . . .

Kerry D.'s call to the SouthWest Indian Mission said to bring a saddle and camping equipment.

Hughie M.'s call to the Raratonga Mission said to bring a surf board.

Mine, to the Mexican Mission, said to bring toilet paper...