Last night I had a very refreshing and encouraging conversation with my wife. She needed to express some hurt feelings and I'm pretty sure I needed to hear her express her pain. It gave me a chance to apologize(even though I was right :) and to tell her how much I love her. We still don't discuss church stuff much at all. It's a kind of no-man's land in our marriage. She goes to church and takes the kids, I grumble about it. Last night we ventured into the Valley of Church Discussion and I was pleasantly surprised.

The most significant event was when she brought up the issue of our oldest children getting married and where that is likely to occur – the temple. She's fine with the kids choosing to marry outside the temple but we both know that isn't very likely. The surprise was how concerned she was for my feelings. I was touched. She understands how much it will hurt me to miss the weddings! Better yet, she doesn't blame ME for not being able to attend! I feel understood by the most important person in my life and it makes all the difference.

I made it clear that I had no desire to make a scene or cause problems if/when my children marry in the temple and that seemed to calm some fears. I also reiterated that I won't wait outside the temple. I refuse to participate in a photo shoot that makes it look like I was part of the wedding ceremony when in fact I was cruelly excluded. My wife understands and is cool with that, it's a workable compromise. I pointed out that her mother may not be “cool with that”. My wife said: “Leave that to me, I'll tell my Mom to back off and don't mess with my man!”.

So it seems my wife is choosing me over the church. Maybe it's more accurate to say she is choosing me as well as the church. Just knowing she understands and respects my position makes it so much easier to deal with living in Utah County. I know many marriages don't survive an apostasy but today I'm very glad that things are looking good for mine. My wife also expressed some rather NOM sentiments. I think her view of the church and the Priesthood has simply had to shift to accommodate the reality of our situation.

Today is a good day.

That's terrific. It is nice to hear about overcoming circumstance; encouraging.

One 'might' think that with ALL the "TBM/Apostate" divorces...AND WITH how much ChurchCo maintains that SSMs hurt families...

One might think that ChurchCo would:

- Back-up Jesus' words abt divorce, found in BOTH BooK of Mormon AND Bible: Adultery/Fornication only justification.

-Back Up what other N.T. writers said: a Believer shouldn't leave an unbeliever; both are sanctified.

But NO; they choose to WAIL AGAINST SSM!

So; how many LDS families have been HARMED by SSMs, issues?

how many LDS families have been HARMED by 'TBM/Apostate' divorces?

There's your answer for ya, Pardner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2011 07:36PM by guynoirprivateeye.

That is absolutely heart-warming and a big confirmation for all your efforts. It could have gone either way and you have scored bigtime. There are few on this board that have made it work.

So happy for you..."my man"--that alone had to make your heart sing.


Anagrammy

You took the words right out of my mouth anagrammy! But you said them better than I would have.

Tks, loveskids--I was very touched by Stunted's update, I had tears in my eyes after reading it. So much pain on this board, so much heartbreak when a spouse discovers their "eternal" love was actually conditional.

I printed this out to remind myself what can happen instead.

Anagrammy

That's pretty awesome, dude. It sounds like you're both being honest with each other and doing your best to see things from the other's perspective. Can't ask for much more than that.

When both spouses allow and honor one another's feelings, the foundation is laid for a happy marriage. Sounds like you and DW have figured this out!

A “good” day? A *glorious* day!

Glad that you feel understood. But I must say she HAS chosen YOU and the church. She is fine with you being excluded from your child's wedding? Really? If she were truly "feeling" for you wouldn't she encourage a civil wedding-so you could be there- and later a Temple wedding? It just seems odd to me, a nevermo. But in the end it is your child's choice.I really liked when she said she would tell her mom to back off if necessary. As she should.

Remember, we live in Utah County. My wife's entire social circle is composed of TBMs. Same goes for my children and If I'm honest it's the same for me. Hard to avoid the Mormon culture when you're neck deep in it.

What my wife said is that she isn't OK with me being excluded. That's why she'd be OK with a civil wedding. She wouldn't prefer it, but she'd be OK with it. One of the things we were able to discuss is the huge amount of shame associated with a non temple wedding. Most everyone, Grandpa and Grandma, Aunts, Uncles, cousins and everyone in the ward will assume premarital sex prevented the "real" wedding in the temple. As a TBM that would have been my default assumption.

Young couples have enough pressure on them when they get married. They don't need to deal with Parents and Grandparents battling over where they get married. We all know that with Mormons the "where" is anything but trivial and it would be a full court press with my in-laws. So if my children choose a temple wedding I'll go along with it. I won't support or praise it, but I won't fight it.

Knowing my wife understands and respects my position is enough for me.

Stunted



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2011 12:06PM by Stunted.

I understand what you are saying but it will never end if people "allow" Mormons to "assume" things that are not true. It will never end. Assumptions and truth are two different things and if family can not believe you when you say you have not had sex before marriage then what good are they. They already think you are liars. It is just very very sad.

If they get married civilly do we print the invitations with a note on the bottom? Something like a product disclaimer? A three point font that says:

"Please note that while the happy couple is not being sealed for time and all eternity in the temple this day, sex isn't the reason. Any speculations that they have engaged in necking, petting, dry docking, soaking, oral sex, aural sex, anal sex, mutual masturbation, bag-piping, or even plain old intercourse are completely unfounded and you should get your mind out of the gutter."

A note that out of a desire to include ALL family members in the wedding ceremony, the marriage will be held at [insert the location], and sealed in the temple in one year.

Wouldn't it be nice if people just came to expect that when parents cannot attend the temple, the wedding SHOULD be held on neutral religious ground, and sealed later?


With the ability to seal spouses a years later, or even after death, there shouldn't be such an obsession with a "temple wedding". In fact, it seems that couples should make sure they are happily married before they seal for all eternity.

Stunted, I'd like to say I'm happy for you, but I'm actually jealous. The last time the subject was breached w/ my DW re: the subject of a future temple marriage and our 12 yr-old daughter, she was to be indoctrinated about the necessity of temple marriage up until she was of age to be married, and then at that time I could bring up the subject with her about how the rest of the world does marriages.

Sometimes, things go well, other times, I think it'll be a miracle if we don't get divorced once the children are out of the house.

First off, I am happy that you feel the marriage is better.


Something you wrote did ring a troubling bell for me.


Stunted Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It gave me a chance to apologize(even though I was right :)


Do you feel the need to apologize often for things that clearly are not your fault or responsibility? Do you do this to keep the peace? What happens when you don't? Do you feel that you are often placed in the "wrong" category while your wife is rarely if ever wrong (and to point that out would put you on the couch)?

She had hurt feelings because I used the word Cult to describe the church earlier in the week. One of the nice neighbors called and insisted on taking our kids to church because my wife wasn't able to go. The whole thing happened before I really had a chance to intervene.

So, my minor children were taken to church and neither parent was there. I had a problem with that. My wife had no problem with that. We had a little discussion about it and I wasn't completely calm the entire time. I made a few comments like: "Oh, I know our ward isn't one of the wards where children get sexually abused but I'm still uncomfortable with the situation". I probably said something about the 3 seminary teachers who live in our ward aren't the kind that like to have sex with their students - you know, like the one at Lone Peak High school. I didn't yell or anything but there was passion behind my words. It was obvious to my wife that I was upset.

So I ended up apologizing for how I phrased things and for not trying to be more sensitive and respectful of her religious views. It still isn't my fault TSCC is a freaking cult is it? :)

Yeah, I guess I do apologize to keep the peace but now that you have more information, do you think it's too much? I like to think my wife and I have equal power in our relationship but how can I really know? I'm way too close to have any real perspective.

Thanks,

Stunted

It's perfectly valid to apologize for being insensitive in your comments. That doesn't detract, IMHO, from the validity of your comment or your feelings.

You are going to have to stop using loaded words anyway, for the kids' sake, so why not stop now since you already have gained so much ground.

From now on, let it be clear between you that a parent always accompanies your child to church AND don't overlook church outings like scouts, where my child was molested, and where many little boys die.

There is enough evidence to warrant your concern that you don't have to justify.


Anagrammy