Post mormon I'm trying harder not to judge people and for the most part find it's actually very easy now. But I have to admit I'm being really judgemental of some TBM family members lately and perhaps I need some perspective.

My sixteen year old niece will soon give birth. I've given her parents my opinion and told them to look into adoption for both the baby's sake and for their daughters sake and they've told me to mind my own business. Still, I've repeated the advice anyway whenever they bring up the baby. Otherwise I keep my mouth shut.

Well, today I got an invite to her baby shower. I have no desire to go. I feel like my niece is ruining her life with the approval of her parents who are financially supportive of her decision to keep the baby. Do I go? Ignore the whole thing and then tell them I can't be supportive of this situation if they ask. Am I being a jerk?

I guess she has made the decision to keep it. Might as well accept it and move on. Support her as much as you can.

but I don't have any stats.


Here is how I see it:
You gave them your opinion.
They made a different choice.
They are willing to be supportive of the mothers choice to keep the baby.

This is about a girl and a baby and a family, not you.
So, if it was me, I'd go, or at least give her a nice gift for the baby. Something in the 12 month size as she will get plenty of newborn things.

Yeah, you're being a jerk. You said your piece, they disagreed, now you want to have a tantrum and boycott her shower because you disagree with her decision. That is very Mormon-y behavior and I advise you to repent! ;)

It is her decision, not ours and it could turn out okay[or not]. You have given your opinion. Now let it go and support her.

You state that you expressed your opinion...twice and now want to boycott the baby shower. Do you want to have a relationship with this mother and child in the future or not? If not, do not go to the shower, but keep in mind that the grandparents of the baby will also probably not forget your intolerance of their daughter's decision.

I know in my heart, if at the age of sixteen I had been forced to give up my baby based on pressure by some cruel old aunt in my family, the loss of not being allowed to raise my own child would haunt me to this day and forgiving her for her ignorance of how deep the mother/child biological bond is would be extremely difficult. I am sixty-one.

It really is none of your business. Furthermore, I think this young woman's parents are wonderful for supporting their daughter in her decision. This has nothing to do with Mormonism, as I have never been Mormon.

Just to echo everyone else

you have given your opinion, it was rejected. It looks like they still want you in their life - as the babies gt auntie.

so, you either accept their decision at some point (now would be a good time, while the door's still open)... or you act like a bitter witch for the rest of your life

This is how I see it........

They are not hiding this 16 year old away...........and adopting this baby out secretly.

It's out in the open and may be a good choice for your niece.
It's her choice............and her supportive parents choice not yours.

IF you want to go to the shower........go.

Enjoy everyday
AnonyMs

It is inhuman to take a child away from the mother, contrary to what the old geezers in SLC try to tell the members.

Your niece is very lucky to have such supportive parents.

Did they even ask for your opinion?
You are behaving like keeping the baby is a personal insult to you when,in fact, it is none of your business. Stop being a jerk.

The same situations and the same reactions play out all over.

I wouldn't want it adopted away. Whether it "ruins" the girl's life depends directly on how much support she gets from home. SD, Dying to be a Grandpa

Particularly when said opinion runs contrary to all things LDS?

Here's how it will likely go down:

Niece will have the baby and her folks, as promised, will lend support. At least until the novelty wears off. Once daughter and baby become a nuisance, mom and dad will not be as supportive so daughter will pop out another baby to begin the cycle anew.

Supporting the cause is to say I will always be there. Not supporting the cause is to say don't count on me. In truth, its not about you. Likewise, its not about your niece or her parents. On the other hand, it is about the baby and what's best for its health and well being. Seems to me you're the only one who comes close to understanding that.

Here's some real "mormony" thoughts from this very thread:

"It is inhuman to take a child away from the mother"

Inhuman to who? ... The irresponsible mother or the helpless child? ... Children are not possessions. They are charges. Few parents understand that or are capable of delivering. Mormons are the worst in that respect.

"So, you either accept their decision at some point (now would be a good time, while the door's still open)... or you act like a bitter witch for the rest of your life"

Typical black & white thinking. Either accept it or die alone in the gutter. Like yourself, I don't agree with the decision at all. I've personally witnessed three generations of this nonsense amongst my own family. Am I bitter about it? Not at all! As a matter of fact, its quite comical. Much like Mystery Science Theater 3000 in that you sit back and watch a movie so ridiculously absurd you can't help but make fun of it, the actors and the folks who put it together.

"I know in my heart, if at the age of sixteen I had been forced to give up my baby based on pressure by some cruel old aunt in my family, the loss of not being allowed to raise my own child would haunt me to this day and forgiving her for her ignorance of how deep the mother/child biological bond is would be extremely difficult."

That would be something to think about before, not after the fact. Contraception devices have been around for a while. Had your niece's parents been a tad more "parenty", they might have educated their daughter and avoided this mess. The subject of sex, however, is taboo in mormon homes. That's just plain old irresponsible parenting.

"Yeah, you're being a jerk. You said your piece, they disagreed, now you want to have a tantrum and boycott her shower because you disagree with her decision."

I didn't notice any threat from you to through a tantrum over the issue. Leave it to the mormon mindset, however, to introduce drama where none exists.

"This is about a girl and a baby and a family, not you."

Actually, its not about anyone but the baby. You seem to be the only person who is concerned about the true victim in this situation. In my book, that's anything but "mormony"

Its also rather sad!

Timothy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2010 11:02AM by Timothy.

from the posters and they told her.

Moralizing after the fact is useless in such situations.

So is the assumption that a baby is better off with adoptive parents. In fact, this is an outright lie which is fostered by the Mormon church and LDS social services.

This particular baby has a mother and supportive grandparents.
How they chose to fashion their lives is neither Cindy's nor anyone else's business.

Or don't you?

Growing into the role of "parent" as a teenager isn't exactly the most desireable situation for anyone involved. Who knows, the kid might get lucky and end up with another Momma Phelps. What's more likely, however, is that mommy will quickly learn to resent her little bundle of joy once the harsh realities of raising a kid set in. You can also bet that grandma and grandpa won't be too far behind.

But you're right, Glo. Its not about Cindy. Likewise, its not about the niece or her parents. Its about the kid. Sadly, the kid has no say in the matter and will simply have to deal the with crappy hand its been dealt. Hell of a bargain, wouldn't you say?

The grandparents and mother think they can handle the job, but the momma has no experience and the grandparents, it seems, weren't able to give their child adequate training or motivation not to get preggers at sixteen. Don't know about you, Glo, but I'd feel fairly slighted if I were the kid!

Its mormonism, not Cindy, that is advocating irresponsible parenting in this matter. As I've said before, there's no such thing as the imperfect parent. Just ask 'em. They'll tell ya!

I applaud Cindy's concern. Its anything but "mormony"

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2010 01:47PM by Timothy.

>"So, you either accept their decision at some point (now would
>be a good time, while the door's still open)... or you act like
>a bitter witch for the rest of your life"

>Typical black & white thinking. Either accept it or die alone
>in the gutter. Like yourself, I don't agree with the decision
>at all. I've personally witnessed three generations of this
>nonsense amongst my own family. Am I bitter about it? Not at
>all! As a matter of fact, its quite comical. Much like Mystery
>Science Theater 3000 in that you sit back and watch a movie so
>ridiculously absurd you can't help but make fun of it, the
>actors and the folks who put it together.

I am talking from personal experience. and this is my honest opinion - given the facts stated.

these minor disagreements tend to get blown out of all proportion and end up splitting families. At the moment, there seems to be an opportunity for 'cindy' to take part in her nieces family. 'the door is still open'. a refusal may well mean that the door is closed and future relations may be more frosty, and it will take some sort of major gesture to warm things up.

the last time I saw my Brother Ronald was about 40 years ago. apparently My brother and his wife had a row with my sister... over the use of a baby's highchair.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2010 11:45AM by onceanelder.

You wrote:

"So, you either accept their decision at some point (now would be a good time, while the door's still open)... or you act like
a bitter witch for the rest of your life"

Why does Cindy have to "accept" their decision or face consequences? Moreover, why is Cindy required to act like a bitter witch for the rest of her life if she doesn't?

Cindy can disapprove and not support without becoming a bitter witch. Only the mormon mindset paints such an ugly black & white picture.

As mentioned, I've watched this scenario play-out time and time again for three generations starting with my own mother. I'm not bitter about it at all. They just think I am. Probably because I refuse to subsidize their stupidity when times get tough.

I thought about all this stuff and reacted accordingly long before I became of legal age or got married. No one bothered to teach me a thing. I learned by observing. Had a front row seat ta-boot!

Things will be all lovey-dovey for about six months. Maybe eighteen. They'll then realize they made a mistake, but won't admit it cause mormons can never be wrong.

Mystery Science Theater 3000, my friend.

Timothy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2010 12:34PM by Timothy.

She, together with her family, who you say are going to be financially supportive of the girl and her baby, have decided to keep the kid. Hopefully, this girl will be able to finish high school, go to college, etc., while she and her baby will be provided for by her family and they will not do without the necessities of life.

You've given the family your opinion; they didn't accept it. Now is the time to be supportive of your 16 y/o niece, warts and all, and help her grow up to realize her potential as a person despite this bump in the road.

Yes, in my opinion, you are being a judgmental jerk and nosing in where it is not your business. You were even asked to butt out, yet you continue to tell people your opinion about how they live their lives and you continue to tell them what to do with their lives. It's a little bit rude to offer unsolicited advice once, but it's the height of rudeness to keep hammering away at it.

How does your niece's decisions affect you personally? Are you being expected to help care for this baby? If that is the case, then maybe you have half a leg to stand on, but as I see it, you are being a Buttinski of the Highest Order, and yes, Virginia, that is a holdover from being mormon. With some people, you can take the apostate outta the church, but you just can't all the mormon outta the apostate.

Personally I don't think you have any business saying shit to anyone in the family about it. It's not your life to judge or comment on. STFU and sit down and mind your own business. Consider therapy to work on boundaries.

Oh, and same to you Timothy. I see that your point is at least Cindy is concerned about the baby's welfare.

I still see that as a boundary issue as well. It is not her baby, nor her grandbaby to be concerned about. The teen mom and her parents seem to be considering all angles -- given that we only really have one third-hand internet post as our primary source of information. I'm especially delighted with that mindreading act you played upthread wherein you predicted exactly how all this will play out. These people aren't your family; you do not know any of them nor the details about the circumstances. There is not a single word in this thread about the father of this baby. We do not have all the information so I don't see how your magic crystal ball works so well. You must be a really good psychic if you can read a few lines on the interwebs and accurately predict how a given situation will turn out.

You should shut up and sit down too, Timothy.

Well, regardless of the fact that Timothy was the only one to see my point-of-view, I do appreciate the feedback.

Of course, families are complicated and perhaps in a perfect world with loving and financially supportive parents this situation could work. I realize that I only gave the bare bones of the situation, but regardless, many of you seem to have rose-colored-glasses on.

To address a few points: No she won't finish highschool. She's already stated that perhaps in the future she'll get her GED. She plans to take care of the baby. College has never been in the works for this girl. No parental guidence.

The family--who have stated that they will financially support her and her baby-- is dirt poor, the house is filthy, and the father is 16 and living with them as his parents kicked him out of his house at thirteen. The gages in his ears are particularly attractive.

I asked my sister-in-law, what is going to happen when she ends up with the child to raise. She assures me this will never happen as her daughter is responsible. She assures me the father-to-be has impressed her as responsible also. Uh, huh.

I am sad every time I think about this baby's future.

Ah, well. One thing that soliciting advice has done is to make me realize that I really can't do anything about this. My feeling sick over the situation-- and acting disapproving, will make no difference. The baby will be part of the family, and so until I can keep my ah, bitterness, to myself, I believe I will simply send a gift in the mail.

So thanks. Decision made. Peace kept in the family. No line in the sand drawn.

I think an important thing to consider is the fact that this is, really, none of your business. Or, at least, none of your business in an actionable way. They are sharing with you the events and circumstances in their lives, but -based on your description - they aren't coming to you for approval or permission.

I point this out because it seems like you have lost sight of the fact that whether or not your opinion is valid, or whether your disapproval is based on valid things, you have not been given a vote. This is a family matter, that is, it's a matter for THEIR family, not extended family.

Similarly, you would not get a vote in where she went to college, if that had been in her future, her future spouse or any other lifestyle choice.

I know this sounds harsh, and I am not judging your opinion, I am just trying to put into perspective where you have over-stepped a boundary and have lost sight of the fact that you don't get to be upset over them not taking your opinion/suggestions into consideration. Her parents are adults, just like you, and you have to respect their right to make the decisions that are best for their family. It sounds like a lot of your anger and desire to make a statement about your disapproval by not going to the shower, etc., seems to stem from your frustration that they didn't listen to you.

You are not wrong for having your own opinion about the situation (I might not share your opinion, but everyone is allowed to have their own), However, you are wrong for trying to control a situation that isn't yours to control, and for feeling like your moral high ground makes you more suited to make decisions for your Brother's family than they are. This parent/child way of treating adults who stray from your own perspective IS a hold over from being a mormon.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2010 03:23AM by wittyname.

Tough situation. Hits close to home as my younger sister had a child at 16. LDS social services came and tried to push adoption on her. Same with the church leaders.

Thankfully, we all supported my sister's decision to keep her baby. Especially my parents.

Fast forward 10 years and my sister graduated h.s. and got her b.s. in biology, both with honors. My neice is a brilliant, well adjusted thriving girl having a blast in 5th grade and excelling in swimming and piano.

By the way, the father was never in the picture.

Not that my sister's success didn't come without sacrifice. She had to grow up fast. She couldn't go out with her friends. She was exhausted and I saw her cry a lot.

BUT we were there to love her through it all and never doubted her potential to be a success despite her teenage screw up.

Being a teen mother doesn't have to ruin the lives of mother and baby. And if the situation is as bad as you describe, she'll need as much love and support as she can get.

I know you don't agree with the decision that has been made but have a heart. Show some compassion on her.

You select who you want to remain close to in family.

It may be that your family is less conservative than yourself.

There are many many people that are not LDS that are extremely conservative politically or socially or financially or in their own views and individual lifestyle.

You do have the right to be who you are, and think your thoughts. No one else has to think they are good thoughts, if they're your thoughts & that is what you think for reasons of your own.

I wonder are you chosing your battles - is this a part of the family you don't like anyhow? that you do not live near and have no time or interaction with anyways? Or someone that lives on the family farm or cattle ranch in one of the houses near you? Is this a partner in a business or trust fund you need to interact with- and act professionally etc. or not?

Finally what meaning does this have for you? Did someone else in the family have to sacrifice badly in such an instance? Is it difficult to see everyone not requiring this same sacrifice now?
I would hasten to say that this differing social response in no way invalidates sacrifices made in the past. However these sacrifices become tragic all around, don't they? Closed or open, someone pays - through the years the sacrifices, they linger. As will the sacrifices this teen is making now.

My question is- how much of their sacrifices- are you willing to make into your OWN sacrifices? Are you willing to sacrifice everything- every closeness with this part of the family, ever going to reunions, movies or events sharing other family members, where one might have to select whether it's you- or one of them (sounds like 3 of them, so far) who is going to be there. Because then their own sacrifices which you disagree with- become your own sacrifice.

now if it was felonies & inviting assorted former jail inmates & some on the lam living with your niece in your brother or sisters' home- and you knew it would wreck your career if you were arrested during a sheriff 'sweep' of the property set up by parole officers
and it would hurt you by wrecking your career, ending your employability getting involved- or risking your career by even visiting surrounded by so many active meth users & meth manufacturing equipment & sales people

this I understand. Then you sacrifice closeness with them- felonious conduct & affiliates which surround them- and in doing so sacrifice a certain closeness with that part of the family. Tragically it can't be mended (safely, legally at this point for your own legal risk or financial risk to your on going employability) and distance might need to be maintained with this part of your family.

some people aren't like that- if someone is cooking meth in the barn they still invite them to live in their house so they won't be homeless between drug deals & rehab.

Is a baby being born the same as that?

Does someone having a teen mom in the home mean the same thing to you? Are they letting her drop out? Is there meth involved? Or is this a healthy baby being born in a healthy place?

Many questions- if you can be assured that you are not the one sacrificing everything. . .

and that this does not become an ordeal for you, where you sacrifice terribly or are in some anguish or inner pain while in their presence- you shouldn't have to deal with that.
But if it is a point, of belief, then just be sure that YOU are the one suffering from everything here and making all the sacrifices. Some people say Jesus already died on the cross it doesn't have to be you or me getting nailed up there by our family. (or when we are visiting family.)

not sayin its that bad-

sex outside of marriage. For that reason alone I would suggest you attend the shower and/or send a nice gift. Dr. Laura is a black and white old hag and a pretty good guide for kind, ethical behavior--if you do the exact opposite of what she says.

Cindy. Thanks for coming back with a follow up. I hope my own posts didn't come across as too harsh but - as you admitted - you did only give us the bare bones of the situation to *judge* on.

Things rarely fit into a nice, neat, black and white framework and - at the end of the day - it's your family. you know them - we don't.

If you read my follow up post, you will see that I do have a personal reason for my own feelings and feel that a little give&take at one instant in time could have made a whole load of difference to my own family.

thanks Cindy, and best wishes whatever you do

keep our opinions to ourselves (especially when not solicited), not exhibiting "attitude," knowing when other people's life decisions are not about us, is part of behaving like a grown up - a real adult. So is rejoicing in other people's happiness whether we agree with their choices or not.

That, is an authentic adult.

Mormonism, as I have observe and experienced, too often keeps people acting and thinking like children, never really growing into adulthood.
Not everyone, of course, but it happens a lot in my experience.

Inner peace and happiness cannot exist where there is: bitterness, resentment, etc.

I watch a show with my teen girls sometimes on TLC?, "16 and pregnant", a reality show that all teenage girls really need to view if they are sexually active. I think the producers of this show do a very nice job...it's a real eye opener. What you get from the show is that most of these girls really haven't grown up, they're not ready to be moms, and they still want to party and play. It's just not a good situation for the baby. My 16 year old daughter babysits for a 22 year old mom, who is single with two children. She got pregnant at 16 and 18. A very pretty young lady, who is now working on the GM assembly line (full time). I feel bad for her. I hope your niece will be able to complete high school, succeed in college, find a career that she enjoys, and will be able to withstand the pressures of single parenting. It a tough row to hoe.

... that the "shower" will be percieved by Cindy's niece as a reward for her behavior. Undoubtedly, the girl's family will lavish their attention on her until the baby is born. They'll then shower that attention on the baby until it becomes a nuisance. In the meantime, all Cindy's niece will have learned is that little baby equals no pressure for a while. When the pressure is back on, she'll likely repeat the cycle.

I agree with Skunk Puppet. However, The level of "support" is what I question. I wouldn't attend the shower or offer any presents. In addition, I would not make myself available to baby-sit or help out in any way that has anything to do with money. Trust me, Cindy, they will ask!

Can't tell you folks how many times I've had to deal with this bulls**t. Eldest sister, for example, would come in to town (she lives in Utah) and call to ask if I'd baby sit her eight f**king rug rats along with my other TBM sibs combined fourteen so they could go out. When I refused, which was every time, she'd get real mad and say, "That's not Fair! You don't have any kids!" as if that somehow made it my duty. Like it or not, dogzilla, I told sis every time that she should have thought about such things before she went about birthin' eight kids. I know I did!

This one's a particular favorite. Eldest TBM brother, who was already indebted to me for quite a handsome sum, came by one day, unnanounced, to borrow an additional $7,500. When I refused, he got mad and said "You don't know what its like to feed eight mouths (6 kids, he and his wife) as if, again, that somehow made it my duty. After informing him that, having grown-up under such circumstances, I did, in fact, know what its like, I then reminded him that my council was never requested nor I did get any pu**y out of the deal, so I bear no responsibility in the matter. All I got was this nonsense about making heavenly father mad because I had dishonored and mocked the family. Whatever.

The kicker, however, came when eldest brother died in 1992. I kid you not, my TBM siblings told me "the spirit" had told them it was god's plan that I ditch my Beloved nevermo spouse and take my brother's place so that I might know the joys and blessings of raising kids. His griefing wife agreed. Does it bother you, dogzilla, that I told them that was just about the stupidest f**king thing I ever heard in my life?

The question is whether or not its "mormony" of Cindy to boycott her sixteen-year-old niece's baby shower. The bulls**t I just cited is mormony. Encouraging a repeat performance with attention, parties and presents is quite "mormony" as well as typical of the irresponsible parent. Suggesting alternatives and expressing concern is anything but mormony.

They don't want your advice, Cindy, but they do want your support. Guidance would be the only type of support I'd be willing to offer. That will be rejected as well. The "support" they want is either monetary or of a baby sitting nature.

Its not mormony at all to refuse to be used.

Timothy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2010 02:49PM by Timothy.

Timothy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Eldest sister, for
> example, would come in to town (she lives in Utah)
> and call to ask if I'd baby sit her eight f**king
> rug rats along with my other TBM sibs combined
> fourteen so they could go out. When I refused,
> which was every time, she'd get real mad and say,
> "That's not Fair! You don't have any kids!" as if
> that somehow made it my duty. Like it or not,
> dogzilla, I told sis every time that she should
> have thought about such things before she went
> about birthin' eight kids. I know I did!

Hey, I don't have any problem with refusing to babysit 14 children. I'd have probably given her the same response.

I think that is a completely different situation from inserting your nose into someone else's family business and expecting everyone to bow to your bidding, especially when you have no personal stake whatsoever in the situation. If Cindy's family expected her to take in this teen mom, or contribute to supporting the kids financially, then absolutely, Cindy gets a vote about how these kids are going to make their choices. But Cindy's not being asked to do anything like that and it's not her place to decide to "reward" or "punish" the kid.

Timothy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>The kicker, however, came when eldest brother died in 1992. I >kid you not, my TBM siblings told me "the spirit" had told >them it was god's plan that I ditch my Beloved nevermo spouse >and take my brother's place so that I might know the joys and >blessings of raising kids. His griefing wife agreed. Does it >bother you, dogzilla, that I told them that was just about >the stupidest f**king thing I ever heard in my life?

No. Once again, you were being asked to take responsibility for something that had nothing to do with you. Cindy has not been asked to take responsibility for a damn thing related to her neice's pregnancy.

Your examples are unrelated.

Timothy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>Its not mormony at all to refuse to be used.

How is Cindy being used?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2010 04:11PM by dogzilla.

Babies these days are extremely expensive as they need a lot of stuff. Can't even take the baby home without a car seat properly installed! Disposable diapers, alone are expensive these days and not cheap. So are baby clothing, and other needs.
The baby shower is about the baby, to help the mother and it's a long standing tradition that I find very helpful.
Being invited is an honor, in my view.
Go or don't go, send a gift or not. It's up to the person.

When we lived in married student housing at BYU in the 60's baby showers were discouraged as there would be one every few weeks, and it was just too hard (and too expensive) to include everyone I suppose.
So I didn't have a baby shower for the children born in Utah while we lived there.
Fortunately, we had family that sent a few things. We used cloth diapers, and I made my own for my children.

They're intended to ease the financial burden on the parents, parent or guardian(s)

If they were for the baby, parents would ask for stuff like college trust funds or sound advice.

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2010 03:55PM by Timothy.

I had (had being the key word) an ex-mo friend who is still the most judgemental jerk I've ever known in a similar situation.
He decided to open his big mouth and tell a complete stranger she needed to give her baby up for adoption because she was 16.

He had no idea that the grandparents-to-be were very excited and were going to help the couple raise the kid. The grandparents happen to be friends of mine and I didn't tell them this because I thought the grandfather would beat the hell out of this ex-friend.

It's her choice and the fact her parents will help her is a good thing. Adoption is not always the best choice.

I think Cindy has cause to be concerned and I agree that having a child at 16 is far from ideal, but the point is that it is not her decision. She has given her opinion and they chose not to take her advice which is their right.It is time to let it go. Time will tell if this was a good or bad decision. I would go to the baby shower or send a gift. They already know your feelings. Staying away will simply cause more hard feelings. It seems spiteful and counterproductive to me.

one of my pals in HS accidentally got knocked up when we were seniors, by her freshman boyfriend!! we were all harping and harping on her to get on the pill, one of our moms was a ob/gyn RN and she could have got plenty with noone knowing.

they opted to keep the baby, and i tell you, i am so grateful! before she became a mom she was super flightly & very immature, even for a 18 year old! her plan for life was literally: "i dunno, bum around?" when their son was born, it was so weird, she became the most responsible person ever, she brought him when we would get together, she never dumped him on her parents while she would run off, she went to college & got a degree in accounting, now she is part of a very successful local insurance business and the father & her married a few years ago after he finished school. all 3 of their children were in their wedding...

i dont condone teens getting pregnant but my friend would be a complete deadbeat if she'd given up her son.