night and I asked God to confirm that the Church was true if it was considering everything I had been finding out about Joseph Smith, the Masonry, etc... I have NEVER felt so much emptiness and void during and after a prayer. The absolute void. I felt nothing at all. I must say that a small part of me wonders whether it is God that has removed himself because of what I have been saying about the Church. If I needed a confirmation in my life, it was then and i think God would have given that confirmation. But there was just nothing.

been there too. you're not alone.

...and there's nothing wrong with that. However, this method of testing information via prayer is quite flawed. If I still believed in God, I would say to myself, "God gave me a brain and he intended that I use it. He isn't going to do the decision making for me."

You don't pray about mathematical equations, nor should you pray about historical evidence to test its validity. You're using your emotions as a guide to follow, rather than your mind. You probably don't feel good about what you've discovered, I sure didn't. Discovering the man behind the curtain is indeed a shock and it will send your emotions careening around on a roller-coaster of pain. Those emotions will carry over into your prayer habits, there's no doubt about that.

Just something to consider. Good luck with your journey, angelina5.

I can't tell you the number of times I prayed while a TBM while going through some very difficult struggles. There were times I was absolutely desperate and, sadly, I also never felt anything. This is one of the main reasons I am agnostic at the moment and leaning more towards atheism. I just couldn't understand how a supposedly loving and kind God could just ignore the pleas of someone who genuinely needed help and guidance.

Then of course, came the feelings that I must not be worthy enough to receive help, guidance, inspiration or whatever.

It wasn't until I started to just rely on myself and my own knowledge, abilities and intellect that things started to improve. I now take responsibility for my own responses to stress and know that I can handle it.

I'm sorry for the confusing feelings you are having right now. When I prayed the hardest, I was totally TBM and was saying nothing bad about the church, and yet still nothing...

I would say to look into your own self and make your decisions there.

Stop using "feelings" to decide if something is true. The feeling is "empty" because there is nothing there. YOU have done nothing wrong, to make God remove himself, that is just guilt talking. Stop blaming yourself. You did not make up all the lies and half truths, that you have been told to you over the years. You are finally seeing the truth. The Emperor(sp?) has no clothes!

THANKS everyone! I am glad to have this forum and the support available on here.

but I can tell you that asking God to give you a FEELING that something is true is a very precarious way of determining TRUTH. Feelings can arise from a variety of sources (including what you ate for dinner last night!) God will lead you if you ask Him. You may not get the answer in a blinding flash of light but His Truth is real. I believe the Bible to be God's Word and He will reveal himself in its pages.

The most silent moment I ever recall is when I prayed in the Solemn Assembly Hall of the Logan temple for God to show me the Truth about Mormonism while on a tour prior to the dedication. We actually got a few minutes to mill around in there before being shuffled off. The feeling of complete silence and eerie. That does not mean it was God's answer but the things I found out later on about Mormonism brought the experience to mind and in retrospect I do think the silence could have been a message from God, "I am not to be found in this cult."

I know the Logan temple very well actually. The eerie silence describes pretty well what I experienced last night. I will always believe in God. I am feeling good and in charge again but this is definitely a slow process :-)

Ask if the church is false.

That was sort of the epiphany for me. My subconscious self -- that already saw the truth -- finally broke through to my conscious self that was resisting seeing the obvious. My is-it-false prayer was my conscious self, my BIC self, my indoctrinated self opening up to the possibility. Once I did, whoosh, I got the type of confirmation I'd been taught only comes when you agree with the church, not with an un-testimony. My mind was clear, my heart was full and the burden was lifted.

not after months and months of trying, not before/during/after a mission. It never came. I've read the BoM at least 15 times. The funny thing is this: I shared my no-answer experience with my parents and other siblings...none of them ever got an answer either, despite being TBMs.

Once I admitted to myself that the church is a man-made organization, everything fell into place. I mean EVERYTHING suddenly made sense.

Like an earlier poster said "My mind was clear, my heart was full and the burden was lifted." This was my experience exactly.

What a relief. The church is not what it claims to be. It's just that simple.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2011 11:55AM by danboyle.

I hope to get tht feeling soon. My mind is clearing up but my heart isn't full yet.

and have worked with many young women reclaiming their own power.

You have within you wisdom. You have always had it-- a powerful inner voice that some call your conscience, your instinct, your "gut", your intuition. This is NOT the Holy Spirit, this is a normal ability that all women have (more than men) which has developed over millions of years of surviving while not being the stronger sex (and being bullied by men).

Your cult indoctrination focuses on detaching you from your inner wisdom and your ability to access it confidently on a regular basis. They want you to look to them--the their "priesthood" for answers SO THEY CAN CONTROL YOU.

They want to you wait for an answer outside yourself, the "Holy Spirit" to tell you what's right and wrong when the truth is that the doubts you felt that lead you to pray in the first place were the warnings from your own intuition. You SENSED something was wrong with the messages of constant dependence, obedience and surrender of your time and money. You saw the conflicts in behavior, the lies about the history, the lies of the leader about what the church believes.

What prophet of god does not stand for something to a worldwide audience after writing a book called "Stand for Something" and ordering missionaries around the world to stand in the rain and preach should they ever have "an audience of even a few."

I urge you to respect your inner wisdom, your rudder and the guidance of your own conscience. Every time you have doubts about something, instead of praying, just wait. Gather information and confidently wait. The answer will unfold and become obvious and you will have complete clarity and peace, even wondering how you could ever have been confused.

I have given this advice over and over and seen amazing transformations as a result. Once you realize the ability YOU YOURSELF have within you, I swear you will laugh when you think you ever believed that you should go to a bunch of aged corporate bureaucrats to make decisions for you about the holes in your ears, what you wear, who you hang out with, what you read.

There is already an AMAZING woman inside you who is processing all this information like a supercomputer, and she is telling you as you read this that it is the truth. You are feeling it in your gut.

See? No Holy Ghost required.

((Hugs))

Anagrammy

Wow thanks for taking the time to write this!! I am already starting to laugh about what I have been believing. I do also feel empowered but also back to myself in a way?

I am pretty much an atheist, but I sometimes do find myself praying to God to try and find if he is real. Never works. Also tried expanding it to gods plural as in, hey if any gods are up there hanging around...also never work. Truth is, I didn't set out to be an atheist. It would be comforting as hell to believe that there is life after this one. However, I can not find any proof that there is, and so with the limited life I do have, I feel I can not risk demeaning it, chasing after a false hope.

We have feelings based on our perception of reality. They are not reliable indicators of this reality however. If someone called you on the phone and told you that you won a $1,000,000.00 I'm sure you'd have wonderful feelings. However you look around the corner and see your little brother on the other end of the phone line laughing hysterically. You realize you were pranked. Would you still have those wonderful feelings? No, because you realized that you probably didn't win that $1,000,000.00. You might feel empty or even mildly depressed. It has nothing to do with God or the holy ghost though. Our body simply produces feelings based on how we perceive things.

I urge you to respect your inner wisdom, your rudder and the guidance of your own conscience. Every time you have doubts about something, instead of praying, just wait. Gather information and confidently wait. The answer will unfold and become obvious and you will have complete clarity and peace, even wondering how you could ever have been confused.
Anagrammy's words

In times of deep spiritual distress, I turn to the Psalms.

In the larger world, it is rare that God answers prayers in an obvious fashion. My experience is a gradual unfolding of God's will. Although I have experienced flashes of absolute clarity, I don't demand that experience from God.

... back when I wasn't old enough to be guilty of anything.

Didn't get a warm fuzzy when I was baptized (age 9)

No warm fuzzy when I read the BoM then axed god if it was true (age 11).

Same thing when I was ordained a deacon (age 12).

Another stab at the BoM thang, another miss (age 13).

Ordained a teacher, nada (age 14).

So I'm about half-way through another reading of the BoM when it finally dawns on me that I've been getting the answer all along. It was like that scene in "Christmas Story" when Ralphie discovers the truth behind the Orphan Annie decoder ring. I wasn't devistated by any means, but was sure stung by the fact that I'd been had.

God has not foresaken you. You have broken the spell. It is perhaps the cruelest thing humans do to one-another. I salute your courage and integrity!

The good news?

You're not alone and it does get better!

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2011 12:19PM by Timothy.

There is something desperately wrong with wanting to believe, and holding on to the faiths 'copyrighted' own method of confirmation....

I hope you find out of it! :-)

for Spiritual Help (especially if you're a single female, rich/Good Looking, and between 55-6?, pls get in touch with me...

'Sorry'! not to trivialize your Discovery.
a person making a claim has the responsibility to present evidence to support it, not a person seeking verification.

IMHO, what can't be denied is the constant stream of half-lies coming from ChurchCo leaders, GBH was far & away our most relevant example.

Good luck, and be sure to contact me if "More Help" is needed, haha!

As usual, Anagrammy has given you the best advice ever--the good stuff.

It is true, of all the despicable things the church does, the worst is to make you believe your own inner wisdom is some 'Holy Ghost' that they gave you and can be taken away if you don't do as they say. It is blackmail, pure and simple.

It is your inner self, it is your wisdom and it comes from you, not from some phantasmic side-kick of the god's.

The void you felt was your inner wisdom not responding to any outside source anymore.

At the end of my mormonism, that is what I felt, NOTHING. Finally



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2011 12:38PM by blueorchid.

I've only switched teams a month ago...at first I was in shock, dis-belief and very
Pissed off. It's like, if I'm not Mormon, if it's not true, what else is there?...and what I have discovered is...life! Don't let the flawed way of "feeling" to know truth deceive you even another day. Study, learn, and live. ;).

is a self-serving lie which is so obvious once you startle awake that your newly released self then screams, "You idiot!"

If its any comfort, we all wanted to do God's will, we all bought it too and there are some powerful intellects on this board, so don't feel so lame.

Thanks for all your kind words. Happy Free New Year!

Anagrammy

It's a scary place to be, but it gets better. It might get worse before it gets better though.

This is why Sidney Rigdon & Co. wrote Moroni's promise the way they did.

When someone actually prays with an open mind nothing happens. When someone prays with a confirmation bias they "feel good."

Just a quick FYI that you will not receive an answer. It's either because God doesn't exist. Or it's because God doesn't care to answer questions about all these so-called "difficult issues of the critics" about the Mormon church. I think if you did a survey of apologists and exmos you'd find that there are many who did lots of pondering/praying in desperation to regain testimonies once confronted with the so-called "difficult issues of the critics". I've read online boards on this topic and have had many conversations with various apologists and exmos. Not once have I ever seen anyone explain how they ever got any real answer to any question to God on these matters. Sure I've heard many examples of people "feeling the Spirit". But those "feeling" experiences have definitely proven themselves to NOT have any reliability at all in distinguishing between truth and error. In my case I have to thank Paul Dunn's war story about Lester Brown for helping me finally get over this whole LDS-self-serving teaching that "good feeling = church is true". I indeed had all those "feeling the Spirit" experiences when I listened to that Paul Dunn tape in Feb 1991 during a low time of my mission. About 9.5 years later I listened to the same tape segment again and remembered those same feelings. For the previous few months I had really been struggling.

At that moment my life was pretty busy. I had a SAHM wife with 2 preschoolers at home. My Bishop was in the process of the early stages of going through a divorce and he had to travel all the time for business so he was only present about 1-2 Sundays per month. The 1st Counselor in our Ward was in his medical residency program + working/school about 50-60 hours/week with 2 young kids and only present about 2 Sundays per month. I was the 2nd Counselor, turned 29 that summer and having serious doubts over the church. Very often I was the only one sitting on the leadership stand for Sacrament meeting and my time for the 30-60 minutes before/after the block plus during the Sunday School & Priesthood/RS sections of the block was pretty busy handling all the ecclesiastical/administrative duties that could only be done in-person by a Bishopric member.

At this time I pretty much assumed beyond reasonable doubt that the BoM was fiction due to the Lamanite/DNA issue. I was convinced that the BoA was bogus due to reading Larsen's online book + looking up plenty of ancient Egyptian mythology info on Osiris/Iris/etc. I was certainly troubled over the 1831-1852 and 1890-1904 coverups on polygamy plus the disciplinary actions against Quinn and others for exposing these facts. I had studied up quite a bit about the history of freemasonry, the facts on Joseph's timeline for becoming a Master Mason & itroducing the endowment, and the temple ceremony changes between 1843-1990. I had read up on the changes in the Book of Commandments -> D&C in conjunction with the introduction of the higher priesthood + obsession with this principle of 2 priesthoods in the Kirtland temple architecture and the lack of a firm May 1829 date. I had read the versions of the First Vision story and the disputes over when the revivals that served as a backdrop had happened - i.e. 1820, 1824?, other dates. I had read plenty about textual issues in the BoM itself. For example, some of the phrases used in the Methodists dogma have found their way into the Book of Mormon. I especially took note of the examples in the Book of Mormon where the wordings match the KJV but then the same phrases in the KJV get updated in the JST. And the BoM witnesses sure gave me some pause for thought. Then I looked at their credibility and I can certainly see that they wouldn't be able to withstand scrutiny on the witness stand in any real court.

But alas one of the biggest and longest stumbling block for me in finally accepting that the church was probably FALSE was the fact that I had indeed had lots of "feeling the Spirit" experiences. Coming to accept these as being just self-serving manipulation tools by LDS inc. helped me move past this towards the non-doctrinal obstacles that were keeping me associated with the church. Sure you can pray, pray, pray, and pray all you want. But no matter how good/righteous you are in accordance with every LDS yardstick you can find you are never going to get any answer about all these so-called "difficult issues of the critics" about the Mormon church. I know that some will say that I just didn't try hard enough. OK at the time I was definitely magnifying my calling bigtime. We had a Ward of nearly 800 members and about 200 regular attendees. I was praying harder than ever and certainly reading the scriptures. I was fasting and I was trying to obey all the commandments.

The one thing I wasn't ready to yet do was to talk to anyone in the believers circles of the church about my concerns. I so wanted to ask to be released and certainly felt conflicted/guilty. But I was chicken/scared to do so. Finally I got my wish indirectly because the Bishop was getting released due to his own marriage issues. And I made sure a certain Stake Counselor who I knew very well was well-informed that I definitely needed a break. As a result I got released and then I never accepted any teaching/preaching position in the church ever again. My wife was certainly pissed when I wouldn't serve in the Ward YM presidency calling that was extended to me a month after my Bishopric release. But when this Stake Counselor asked me to be an Assistant Stake Clerk I accepted and held that calling lazily until I moved out-of-state 8 months later. My wife certainly didn't like how I conveniently arranged almost every week during our Ward's Sacrament meeting time to be AWAY from our meetinghouse on Stake business and how during SS/Priesthood I'd be away or at a Clerks office in our building. My new High Priest group leader was the former 1st Counselor and he'd try to get me to teach the group lesson from time to time but I always turned him down due to me always planning way ahead for appointments at Clerks offices. Oh yeah I became very good at planning a busy schedule during our Ward's block to make sure I could say "no" without anyone secondguessing me. Eventually after a few months of this (and tithing settlement passing with us having a big fat ZERO and me skipping it altogether) I made an appointment to see the new Bishop with a follow up appointment with the Stake President the next evening. I got everything off my chest as far as anything they could call sins and then proceeded with my real purpose of finding out through official channels if there were any official answers to the difficult issues of the critics. With the Bishop (who I had just months earlier done his own temple recommend renewal) I gave him a 30 second summary of the Lamanite/DNA issue. Looking at his face you'd think I had just told a 5 year old a couple days before Xmas that Santa was bogus. He was a jovial guy and a good man. But he was obviously devastated/dumbfounded. He confessed he had no answer and that he wanted me to talk to the SP. I told him I would and then we chit chatted and I was on my way. The next evening I used a different tactic. I simply told the SP (after the confessions) that I now was concerned that the BoM might be fiction rather than non-fiction and I wanted to know if he had received any specific guidance from official LDS channels on how to resolve specific concerns/issues regarding Book of Mormon historicity. The SP was honest that he hadn't received any specific guidance. But he shared an experience he had just a few months earlier in visiting Guatemala with his family. They visited some ruins and at one point at the end of a tour of a particular facility the tour guide pulled him aside and asked if he was LDS as he sensed they were. My SP explained yes + his calling and then the tour guide showed them another artifact at the exhibit that looked like it could be an ancient Nephite baptismal font. My SP bore his testimony to me that this was another testimony strenghthening experience for him. I was there that evening just to see if there were any official answers and the SP had been truthful to me that there weren't and I certainly wasn't there to contend with the SP so I was cordial without fanfare and let him share this testimony and his other words that there are many other evidences, etc. to support the Book of Mormon. Then the SP asked to give me a blessing and being non-confrontational I accepted. A few weeks later I remember sitting with him for about 4 hours in his office with the visiting General Authority for Stake Conference, his 2 Counselors, the Stake Exec Sec, Stake Clerk and other Stake Clerks and at one point in time the GA shared an experience of how he helped a good man who was struggling with his testimony get his life on the right track by bringing him under his wing as a secretary in the Bishopric and later Stake Presidency. I thought to myself "is this what the SP is doing with me" .... LOL.


Well best wishes to you.

Feelings are not a reliable indicator of the truth. Feelings are your own personal reaction to certain events. Feelings can be manipulated (have you ever seen a movie or read a novel that made you laugh or cry?) If a screenwriter or a novelist can manipulate your feelings, so can a church. And that is exactly what the LDS church did to you.

I happen to believe in God, but my belief is that God, as a highly evolved spiritual being, is above any one human religion. Religions are of this Earth, and like anything of the Earth, they can crumble into dust and be forgotten. We are all God's children. Why would a loving, highly evolved God spiritually favor some of his children over others? Why would he have only one, highly narrow truth, and not many "truths," many paths to a higher understanding? Wouldn't any God worthy of the name be bigger than the narrow confines of Mormonism?

Once the Mormon house of cards gave way, so did all other similar supernaturalistic belief systems.

Prayer was no match for the proof.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2011 03:28PM by steve benson.

FYI I have re-written Pascal's Wager:

If there is no mormon god, then leaving the church was the right thing to do.

If there is a mormon god, he will know that I labored for many months and years working in the most sincere good faith to harmonize the obvious problems with doctrine. He will know that I spent many hours in terrified prayer and loneliness pleading "where at thou?" and seeking for guidance and assurance. He will know that I beseeched esteemed mormon scholars and leaders for guidance and answers to no avail. He will know that I read and studied thousands of pages of doctrine and history and science and philosophy seeking to both honor my testimony and also be able to survive as a person of integrity. He will know that I did all of those things in wide-eyed devotion, nothing wavering. He will know that after this grueling and exhausting journey he will know that I presented myself before him with the results and pleaded for any reason not to deny what every fiber of my being was screaming at me: that the church is a cult and a lie, and that he did nothing.

And the mormon god will not condemn me.

"I have NEVER felt so much emptiness and void during and after a prayer"

EXACTLY how I felt. I NEEDED God at that critical point in my life...and NOTHING! So I assumed I was unworthy of God's attention. But, really, if you think about it, what kind of CRUEL GOD would condition his/her response on your worthiness. Would you do that to your children? The only God that would do that is the MORMON god!

The Void IS your answer. It's a scary time--not knowing what to believe...but it's the beginning of a fascinating journey.

It doesn't take much reasoning to realize that feelings, whether they be about God or emptiness or generosity or whatever... are not valid means of determining truth. I did a controlled experiment that proved that they're not, but it really was a waste of my time because anyone should know that feelings are variable, psychological, and often controlled by neural chemicals. In fact, conviction resulting from feelings is enhanced by focused mental states, like prayer and meditation.

However, being raised mormon, we're not taught to exercise this painfully simple and obvious form of reasoning.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2011 12:50PM by kimball.

I know the feeling, hon. I begged, cried, pleaded for a year, and the silence was deafening.

I remember that moment when I couldn't hold onto faith any longer, and thought for SURE, God would have to answer THIS time.

And then . . . nothing.

Quite honestly, it STILL hurts, over a decade later. So I'm very sorry for what you are going through. I don't actually BELIEVE in a God anymore, so it doesn't make sense to be all 'butt-hurt' about it (to borrow a term from my kids). But there was a huge sense of loss that the being who I thought created and cared for me abandoned me when I needed Him the most.

Even if He wasn't real to begin with.

On the positive side, though, I'm better off thinking for myself. It's empowering to find my own answers, instead of waiting and begging for answers, and then changing my mind repeatedly because I think every feeling or doubt could be a message from God.

I feel sad but overtly hurt. I findit comical that I never saw beyond the hidden truths. I'm sure I will have up and downs and that I will cry and feel betrayed.

but about my boyfriend changing from gay to straight. I prayed and fasted until I was sick physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. I'd go get yet another blessing--knowing that since the bishop was so much "better" than I was--that I'd get an answer. Nothing but emptiness. I used to say the heavens were "slammed shut."

I spent so many hours on my knees I'd fall asleep on my knees.

I was SO RELIEVED when I realized the LDS church wasn't true.

I believe in God and in Christ, and still live a Christian lifestyle. I made a conscious decision to keep my faith throughout my journey out of the cult. To question God is just too earth-shattering for me.

I did what Annagrammy said: I waited.

Early on, I realized that God was not to be found in the Mormon church. The Truth was that it was a hoax cult, invented by a con man. Since Mormonism had nothing to do with God, I didn't feel a need to pray over the facts. "I studied my way out of the church." Yes, God gave me the ability to learn.

Another thing you don't find in the Mormon church is "Love." In my own and my children's experiences, the Mormon church is abusive and evil, but that's just our opinion. God didn't have to tell me that.

"To listen to the heart is the truest wisdom." --Leo Tolstoy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2012 02:56AM by forestpal.

Thank you, I still believe in Go so it's good for me to hear experiences of believers who have left the Church. The void I felt was slan answer from God. I'm still not entirely confident that God isn't upset with me for leaving the Church. Some of the brainwashing for 10 years has taken a toll!

JS gets a visit from God and Jesus Christ on more than one occasion plus all the angels and revelations. What do we get - zilch, nothing, nada.