[edit] Note before you read this based on response received so far. The question I am trying to ask is not "Should I get a divorce?" I already have that answer. The question is "How do I save my marriage, and make my marriage work?" Also, I want to know what I can do, not what my wife can do - the only thing I can change here is me. (I hope this doesn't come across as snotty - I'm just really really hoping for some help/insight here and want to direct your thinking towards what I am trying to ask.)


So I may be moving out of my home tonight.

Some of you may have read my first post/rant on this forum a few weeks ago. Some stuff has come to a head.

My marriage has a lot of good in it. We both love each other deeply. We communicate well. We are good friends. We both contribute. We have great kids - we feel like a team in raising our children where our strengths/weaknesses compliment each other etc.

But we have a seemingly insurmountable problem.

Sex.

It's going to be awfully hard to give an accurate summation of the problem without writing hundreds of pages but here's a shot at it. Sorry for the long post:

Me:

I have a very high sex drive (especially for someone who is 40). I also have a high desire for erotic, passionate, adventurous sex. When I feel close to my wife it immediately translates into sexual attraction. In sex the thing I want most is to make my wife deliriously happy. As my sex drive is not met in our marriage I "supplement" with masturbation & porn. Ideally, I'd have sex 3-10 times a week sometimes more or less but probably averaging around 6 times a week. I feel connected when the sex has a strong passionate and/or erotic aspect to it.

My wife:

My wife has an average / slightly above average sex drive. She absolutely hates feeling out of control. She does not think she likes to be adventurous although she greatly enjoys it when she is if it is not threatening to her - it's horrible for her if threatening (both sexually and life in general). She is fairly conservative sexually - she has been called a prude by our relief society president because she refuses to read anything with any type of swearing or sexual content. She made us walk out of Iron Man because of the quasi-sex scene at the beginning. However she can occasionally be ridiculously hot in bed . To her sex is primarily about relaxing a little followed by a great orgasm - which she usually has via intercourse within about 3-5 minutes of me first touching her privates. Occasionally she is good with me giving her a long massage that turns to sex. Occasionally she is up for longer sex where it's more like 15 minutes from when we get serious to orgasm. For her ideally sex would be an activity that occurs 2-3 times a week - typically 2. The experience would occasionally be passionate, but almost always follow the same comfortable formula with very minor variations.

The situation:

My wife initiates sex a couple times a week, occasionally when she really wants it, usually because she is afraid I will be upset if she doesn't, or sometimes altruistically just because she knows I would enjoy it. The one time I tried to initiate sex in the past 3 months (just asking for a "quickie" as she calls it where she sits there like a sex doll while I get off - to me a "quickie" is the sex we have 90% of the time where start to finish is under 10 minutes. I digress.) The one time I attempted to initiate a quickie which I did very politely and just as a suggestion was answered "All I am is a piece of meat to you. But yeah go ahead." My answer of course was "um never mind - of course I don't want to do that to you." That experience was the straw that broke the camel's back for a lot of hurt I’ve felt in our sexual relationship. I decided once and for all that the way we are going is ultimately leading to me having an affair - it's pretty much inevitable.

Also early in December I made a rare plea that our sexual relationship be more along the lines of what I want it to be instead of just the standard 2 times a week of "vanilla" sex. (I'm good with vanilla 70% of the time - vanilla tastes good).

Finally earlier this week my wife said - let's make some time to do something you like. She was willing to get out of her comfort zone and make it something special for me. I started thinking maybe an affair isn't inevitable after all, but don't get my hopes up. To skip the details we both made mistakes and were both tense and it turned into a huge catastrophe but not a fight - we used to fight intensely over this issue, but haven't for a couple years.

In the resulting discussion she asked if there is masturbation or pornography. (Back story - history of her knowing about pornography in the past - I got back into it a couple years ago again but made the mistake of not fessing up again because "I didn't want to hurt her"). I decided to come clean. I also came clean that I believe the way our sexual relationship is currently functioning or not functioning that ultimately it will lead to me having an affair. (Never a raised voice or personal attack from either of us throughout this process - just honest open communication that we have learned the hard way through a 17 year tumultuous marriage.)

To her this is an ultimatum: Start having lots of sex and be happy about it (more to come on the be happy about it later) or me have an affair. Also pretty much live with pornography and masturbation which to her is in some ways almost as bad as an affair (one because it's hurtful but more importantly because it is extremely evil to her and she can't respect me if I do it.)

As the discussion progressed I told her I could see only a few possible outcomes:

1) We somehow fix our sex life. If it were a positive thing instead of a negative thing and it were OK I could channel ALL of my sexual energy and desire to her. The masturbation and pornography could go away. An affair wouldn't even be a risk. Of course after years of me lying about masturbation and pornography she would never be able to believe/trust that they were truly gone.

2) We go on as is. For now it means supplementing with porn and masturbation and probably eventually ends up as an affair. I can short term try to avoid porn and masturbation but we both know it won't last.

3) We kinda stay together for the kids. Basically we live as partners but not "partners" in the same house. We try to remain friends but don't have sex. I have sex elsewhere. She lives a self-imposed life a celibacy.

4) Divorce

She picked #4.

I don't blame her. In fact I respect her more for that choice than any other choice she could have made.

I thought I would be just fine if that is what she picked. Maybe I could just get on with life and find someone who I'm sexually compatible with and who doesn't have the elephant in the room of atheist and TBM trying to make a marriage work.

I wasn't fine with it. I finally truly realized how much family and marriage mean to me. I realized it before - but not truly.

We chatted for an hour and a half about it like best friends before she fell asleep. A lot of it exploring if there could be a solution other than divorce wishing, hoping there was but not believing there was.

We woke up in the morning and starting chatting some more, kind of with me exploring if there could be a solution but not getting anywhere at all. Finally I ask: "Is there any point in this discussion? Have you already made the final decision that the answer is divorce?" Answer: "I decided yesterday for sure that it is divorce." Followed by a list of good reasons that is the route to go - e.g. I respect myself more than to stick around and wait for you to have an affair, my kids matter most but what do I teach them by staying in this situation, etc.

Interruption where she has to take our high school daughter to school. I decide - OK I guess I go to work. Probably don't get anything done. I'll come home tonight and ask one last time "Are you sure?" If the answer is yes, I pack up and leave and we start trying to figure out how to sort out money, kids, etc.

She comes back in after 10-15 minutes and we chat a little more. I ask "are you sure?" She says "no". We spend the next 1 1/2 hours talking like the best friends in the world. Crying. Bawling. Weeping. Touching. Staring into each others eyes. Asking over and over "How can the two of us who are so in love be at this point? How can we be getting divorced when we get along so well other than this one problem that is destroying both of us?"

Other things said:

"Maybe it's just worth holding onto just one more day."

"I don't see how I can have any kind of sexual relationship at this point." "I know. I understand."

"I guess we're just going to be listening the the 'Every other weekend' song for the rest of our lives"

"I could take how sad this if I was just sad for me. But I'm at least as sad for you." "Me too, my heart breaks for you." "I'm not just sad for 1, I'm sad for 6 [including the kids]."

"Just give me one last hug."

"I'll always love you." "Me too."

"I guess this is the part where I say have a good day."

So basically where we are at is she has asked for time to think. Of course she can have it. She asked for my decision. I gave it

- I want to figure out how to make our sex life work for both of us. I don't think it's possible but if there's a 1% chance I'll do anything I can to make it work.

- If you aren't up for that then my next choice is we both stay here and raise our family the best we can but end our sexual relationship (this isn't sprung on her newly - already discussed with her interested in the possibility.)

- If none of the above then divorce.

So off I go to work to stare at my screen and get nothing done.

Update: I just got this text from my wife while writing this:

I'm staying. I love you.

But we're not out of the woods. Not even close. We still have no idea of how to solve this. We've been to 2 marriage counselors before - neither of us has much hope for any constructive help there - we'll likely try it anyways.

We still are in an impossible situation. Now that you have the background let me try to sum it up.

1) From my perspective the problem is that me being sexually interested in my wife to her is an insult. The allure of an affair is that I can find someone that actually wants to have sex with me. The fantasy of porn is that is what I have. The pain of feeling incredible love for her and wanting her sexually being met with resentment, disgust, anger, etc. is nearly unbearable. It feels like a dagger through my chest. What my wife wants from me is for the "sexual appetite" to disappear - she thinks god could make it go away if I would let him (despite years of me unsuccessfully trying to let Him do just that).

I feel like sex is like food - it's not something that can just go away like smoking or drugs. For me to just be consistently feeling hungry for the rest of my life just isn't possible. It's like trying to lose and keep weight off with a starvation diet - it never works in the long run. I can't just make the hunger go away. I can "eat healthy" and direct it all to her but I can't not have the appetite and I can't go forever feeling like I am constantly starving - I have had long periods of abstinence of anything by my wife's prescribed allowed sex and the feeling of starvation is exactly how it feels.

2) From her perspective I am a perverse sex addict. She can never "be enough" because it's an addiction. I am an ill person engaged in evil things. Sex is a very stressful thing for her even though she at times enjoys it immensely. She feels that all she means to me is sex (seems weird to me since she means so much more to me than sex - sex is the problem not the meaning). If she could give what I want she would - she can't.

This is, of course, complicated by her being a TBM and me being an atheist. One comment she made this morning is she feels like she is being forced to choose between God and me. (Followed right after me joking that we just need to get her drinking and then she'd stop being inhibited and we could start having awesome sex we would both love - not the words I used but the meaning she understood in a non-threatening way - it was funny to her.) She says she might be able to accept the pornography if she didn't think it was inherently evil and she understands I don't think it is - I do understand it is inherently hurtful to her which does make it immoral in my case.

Anyhoo - hopefully this outlines the problem: I can't figure out how to not be hurt by her resenting me wanting more and different sex than she wants. She can't provide more sex because to her it is demeaning and threatens what she means to me.

I'm doing a lot of thinking. Is she maybe right about me being a sex addict? Is the fact that it is possibly destroying my marriage enough to categorize it that way? Or am I being mislabeled/misunderstood where it is a legitimate need that I can't change? How do I know?

Any ideas what to do with this mess?

I only bother asking here because the two other serious questions I have asked on this board have provided me with life altering answers for the better.

Help?!?!

Note: I wrote and tried to post this yesterday but it refused the post and I needed time to rework it figure out what illegal word it was rejecting. My wife had a huge deep spiritual revelation from God that she is supposed to stay with me. She is euphoric enough about that answer that she isn’t too into worrying about how we are going to fix things and move forward at this point. We had a wonderful night and were both just so glad that we were still together when we thought it was likely we never would be again. We may even have sex again soon.

Note 2: My wife went to the talk with the bishop last evening about everything. Since my wife was at a point she was ready for me to leave the church she agreed to take my letter of resignation to the bishop. Apparently that’s going to go through with no drama – I’ve already discussed my atheism with the bishop previously when I resigned as EQP last summer so he apparently doesn’t feel the need to drag me through it again. I’m surprised how difficult this is for me. I always thought I would feel a huge sense of freedom when it was to the point she was ready for me to do this. Instead I feel a sense of loss – maybe the timing of nearly losing my marriage amplifies it. There is absolutely no one in my life who is not a TBM and who doesn’t think I’m misguided, evil, and nuts. It’s so lonely.

Note 3: My wife has told me about the several people she talked to in making the decision and what their responses were. I wish she hadn’t told me this. I’m having a hard time not taking personally those who are close to us and advised her to leave. On the other hand I’m super thankful to those you advised her to stay. Ideas on how to let this go? (Especially that my 16 year old daughter wanted her to leave - no need to opine that it probably wasn't appropriate for my wife to put my daughter in the middle of this - I'm already there with you.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2012 01:39PM by ronas.

In the long term is this difference is sexual desires a reason to put your children through divorce?

I'm just sitting here blinking... over the odd notion, in my view, that this is a reason to get a divorce.

So you have differences! Why not do what is necessary to the better welfare of the children, for instance, and compromise, negotiate, put something or someone above your physical sexual needs!

Having been married for nearly 50 years, my view is that this is just plain foolishness to put so many people (the whole family on both sides) through a divorce over something that can be settled between the two of you that is nobody else's business.

But, you can go ahead. Divorce. Put your kids through that. Bring in more people into their lives, girl friends, boy friends, new partners. Just me, but I don't think they want that to happen. Divorce. Then see how much your life improved when a difference of when one wants sex is your only real problem! Good Grief.
I'm thinking of the kids and how many thousands of hours I've spent working in court custody battles. Not nice, not fun, not necessary in many of the instances. Total selfishness on the part of the parents.

Ignore me. I'm just an outsider reading words in black and white on a page on the Internet from a stranger.

And then I read another inane post.

Schlock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And then I read another inane post.


Ya, some opinions are hard to "get" aren't they? So just lambaste me for my opinion? WOW... how helpful is that?
Remind me not to read your posts. You can't seem to understand that there are opinions that don't agree with you and we don't have to agree!

For the record I appreciate your opinion.

I'm not sure how closely you read my post because unless I'm really bad a writing I thought I was pretty clear I don't want a divorce so telling me not to get divorced is kind of pointless. I don't think this is a reason to get divorced, my wife does or did - she doesn't now.

So the one part of your post that has anything to do with what I was trying to ask is:
Why not do what is necessary to the better welfare of the children, for instance, and compromise, negotiate, put something or someone above your physical sexual needs!

I think this is pretty poignant, honestly. However it's much more the emotional hurt than the physical needs that is my problem. If I could get past taking personally my wife's lack of sexual interest in me that would go a long ways, but I don't know how to do that. We've spent 17 years trying to figure out how to compromise, negotiate or something in this area and just hit roadblock after roadblock and keep hurting each other. That's what I don't know how to get past!

ronas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For the record I appreciate your opinion.
>
>
I just cut to what I thought was the core element. Difference of opinion on sexual issues and that it was a reason for divorce.
I could have miss read that.


The point you make that I want to address is this:
you are taking her difference of opinion and needs personally.

That, in my experience, and opinion, is a recipe for disaster.

It's not about you, it's about her, and sometimes there is no way to change what is about someone else. Maybe, sometimes, they can make a change, but my guess is that it's rare.

It's more about accepting that there are differences -- and negotiating a compromise. It's not about right or wrong, good or bad, in my view, it's about what kinds of compromises works for the two of you. Maybe there are none. That happens also.

I'm old school! :-) Only a qualified sex therapist MIGHT be able to help but certainly not me or anyone on the Internet, or a bunch of strangers, or friends, or girl friends. But that's just me.

A PS EDIT: I come from a religious environment that considered porn and masturbation sins, and it was NOT LDS. So those ideas are not just LDS notions, they are much, much older than that!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2012 01:44PM by SusieQ#1.

My heart breaks for you, and I am by no means a counselor nor do I understand your issues completely from this brief look into your life but I will take a stab at your questions--

Is she maybe right about me being a sex addict? Is the fact that it is possibly destroying my marriage enough to categorize it that way? Or am I being mislabeled/misunderstood where it is a legitimate need that I can't change? How do I know?

In my opinion (and only in my opinion) the answer is No, you are not a sex addict. You may have a higher need than she does but no, you are not abnormal or different in a bad/negative way. She is in my opinion over the top prude on the whole masturbation/porn thing. She doesn't understand it is normal for men (this is coming from a woman btw) to feel this way. That masturbation and porn are normal and are not cheating on your wife. It took a lot to get me to this point and when I first found about about my dh doing it I was upset too, not that he was looking but that he hid it from me. I'm all about open communication you don't need to hide anything from me, we also established rules--not around the kids, if I feel like you are going over the top--ie: hurting or raping me or I don't feel safe at home I can leave at any point. Sex is alot more fun now--I don't ask anymore what he is doing because I feel secure in our relationship--it wasn't that he was looking at porn it was the trust issue for me. Once that was resolved I was ok. It helped open up the conversation for both of us what we like/don't like and I'm all for fun sex now. It is my opinion if your wife would get over her hang ups and just let you live with taking care of yourself when she's not in the mood (no need to bring another woman into this really) then everything would be fine. Your feeling guilt over something so normal is hurting your relationship and she is the one throwing the guilt your way--it's not just the sex that is the problem here.

Thanks this is very nice validation that I needed.

However, it doesn't give me anything helpful that I can use to improve the situation. My TBM wife is not going to change her mind about the evil of porn & masturbation. Everything and everyone in the Mormon church will continuously reinforce this belief.

Any other thoughts?

That's all I've got for you, sorry...

She may feel rejected by the turn to porn so make her feel good about herself? Is she all into the garmies or will she wear normal sexy underwear? If she'll wear normal ones, tell her how hot she is..I'm serious, if she feels like you want her, she'll be more open.

Her piece of meat comment is very telling..as much as you want it, make it all about her for awhile, make her happy as often as possible (that she'll let you); if she feels from you that you think she is attractive and worthwhile and her needs are important to you she'll be more open to your needs.

Yes, good insight.

I spent basically 2 years trying this approach exclusively. It worked a little but not very well. I think it's because basically the way she looks at it, since I have looked at porn and masturbated it means that all she is to me is porn. Don't know how to get past that.

That is sad to me, because she would be so much happier if she could let go of that. I vote for seeing a real counselor/therapist too..do everything you can to save the marriage and if there is truly no way around this leaving may be the best.

But, from what I've read, it sounds like your wife has some overarching sexual hang-ups that could be insurmountable (pardon the cloying pun).

And it sounds like you have a healthy normal sex drive.

And if sex is that important to you, it may make more sense to find a partner that is more compatible with you in that regard.

And yes, divorce will be very difficult, for you, for your wife, and especially for the kids. But is the disharmony of your current arrangement any more palitable?

You need to carefully weigh all the factors before making such a momentous decision in all of your lives - I strongly recommend you line up some sessions with a therapist (non-mo, of course) for yourself, without your wife, and see if you can't develop a life path that makes the most sense for all involved.

I thought I liked sex way too much until I married a second time, and my wife proceeded to boink my brains out (she couldn't get enough, and was open to all sorts of adventures). Don't let your wife convince you of the meme that all men are pervs...

(And the common corollary here: The mormon church screws with peoples sexual and emotional health in ways that are pervasive and twisted. And so do the fundies.)

Exhibit A: http://www.salon.com/2012/01/04/rick_santorum_is_coming_for_your_birth_control/

Thanks schlock,

I've definitely done a lot of thinking along these lines. However at this point the welfare of my children and the friendship with my wife trumps the hope that I could have the kind of life you have.

So I guess for now I'm at a loss at how to make the best of the situation I'm in.

The idea of a therapist is a good one.

I'm not sure if I know what you're asking. Do you mean doni think you can afford to pay child support right now or if when you get 50 per cent of your belongings , if that will Generate a comfortable habitat sufficient to launch your engagement beyond survival re Masloqs hierarchy of needs.

So ironic to leave for sex but lose comfort or money so sscrigice leaving is bigger than sacrifice staying. Or financially get limited so you don't have leisure recreation money to afford going anywhere or doing anything with a girlfriend. Lots of compromises

Did you say your wife was with you six times a week but you want ten? And to get more times you said you might need a girlfriend or what? Was that a negotiation tactic? Well this Gould get expensive. It would just be do ironic if you can't afford more if what you want instead get less.

Ps. There are more affordable ways to get out of heinous mortgage real estate value lower than loan besides this divorce thing. Creditors will still come after you separately if you are in a state that allows banks to purdue the difference between the lian and auction or sale. That means two bankruptcies not one and twice the lawyers fees

Just saying. Do your numbers so you're not typing here about wanting wishing to meet everybody but too limited financially now. My brothers an accountant he's very interesting when he talks sometimes. Divorcee is not as freeing financially to everybody some loss 50 per cent really thrashed their life. Oh well. But if your already poor or you wanted to force a business sale or a sale and redistribution of land assets in this market value ( if your invested snd gave many assets) you'd Need financial legal advice business wise which is not present on a free board

Whenever sexual conflict arises in relationships, it ALWAYS has its basis in underlying emotional conflicts.

If you really want to try to save your marriage, get thee to a counselor, posthaste. Both of you. Non-LDS, preferably.

helamonster Wrote:
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+1

Estrogen and Testosterone have a lot to do with it too!!!!!

When women are feeling valued, comfortable and FREE FROM CRIPPLING SOCIETAL CONDITIONING, they have sexual appetites that not only meet, but frequently exceed, that of most men.

Realizing this has helped me to aid several women in getting in touch with their own genuine erotic selves.

I knew I'd get a comment on that one!

Sometimes I wonder if men have been crippled by societal conditioning.

But as you seem to already have your mind made up, I doubt you would do the reading, or be open to any new information that contradicts your own beliefs on this subject.

No worries mr. helamonster. It's my smart ass view of life after living six decades and hearing this same problem over and over and over again. Actually I hear it from both men and women. Yes, I realize this can be a serious issue in a marriage and yes, I realize that a good therapist would be an excellent route to take. At my age, I find humor in almost everything. I forget sometimes how I felt twenty years ago. THANK GOD!!! Or whoever, whatever!

I agree with SusieQ#1. It sounds like you have a bunch of sexual feelings, urges, etc. wrapped up in this relationship with your wife. The fact that you and your wife are on opposite ends of the spectrum as far as "God" is concerned, there is a lot of intensity going on between you two. You sound like good "partners" from the aspect that you have a deep and abiding love and friendship for one another, which is important in any relationship and working through challenges - EVERY marriage has challenges! The question is whether there is a strong enough foundation between the two of you to weather these challenges, grow from them and move forward.

You also may want to consult a sex therapist - sometimes these strong urges are coming from somewhere or something else from YOUR past and you are putting them on your wife. It sounds like she's trying to give this somewhat of a fair shot (the sexual intimacy part that is).

Getting divorced is not easy! Having children involved only makes it harder. Think about REALLY getting some help with your marriage - the sex aspect, the religion aspect and where you two really stand with one another. The time, energy, focus and attention to save the marriage is HARD WORK, but defintely worth it in the end! There are some great books out there too that might get you started. Good luck!

If you lived 150 years ago you would probably feel like my grandpa Heber, who claimed that men who live polygamy are happier and have a spring in their step. Too bad it seems the women had an incredibly tough time with it. Still, they were mormons, and they openly and willingly let their husbands sleep with other women. Beyond that, they also allowed their husbands to develop intimate relationships with those women, which can come with sex, but is a different matter altogether.

How many concubines did Solomon have?

I know this is no solution at all, but things would be different if your wife let you have a concubine like the prophets of old (and not so old). The biggest problem is, the concubine probably won't like the arrangement, and a war will ensue. Then again, even if you found a concubine who was comfortable with the arrangement, her existence would still push the automatic divorce button in the mormondom that so greatly influences your family, regardless of whether or not you still gave your wife all the genuine love and attention that she wants.

Academically speaking of course. In reality, it's very hard to separate sex and love.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2012 01:43PM by kimball.

You basically threatened her with an affair if SHE didn't change. Maybe you need to look at your own skills as a lover. You are treating her like it is HER fault that you don't turn her on.
Have you tried making love to her so that it's ALL for her, and not for you? I mean figure out exactly how to bring her to ecstasy? Multiple times? I mean just HER, not you.

You have indeed given her an ultimatum. She chose the divorce route. Maybe she would welcome a more compatible partner.

It can be a great thing for a middle-aged woman!

I don't think you're a sex addict but you made the biggest mistake you can make by saying or even thinking that an affair would be inevitable. You damaged the relationship by saying that, and I would advise her to leave you too if she was a friend of mine.

You need to own that and sincerely apologize for it.

The two of you need a good sex counselor. The real problem isn't the sex, but how you communicate. Acceptance and rejection of sex between a couple needs to be done in a kind and loving way. But you two obviously have heaped so much additional baggage onto advances and rejection that you aren't really communicating, just hurting each other.

There are books out there that could help. Research on Amazon. There are also therapists that could improve your offer/acceptance/rejection of sex.

When sex becomes the button that means "she doesn't love me/he's just using me" you can't help but hurt each other.

I don't think the problem is how they communicate. From the post, they seem to communicate rather well. The problem is the same problem I would have if being married to my wife required me to eat two rice cakes a day and nothing else for the rest of my life. I love her completely and entirely, and we love having each other in every other way, but if having that love means feeling like I'm constantly starving to death, is that really what's best? And if the day comes that I drag myself into someone's house some Thursday, and happen upon a Thanksgiving dinner and I cave and have me a slice of turkey, if that means my wife will divorce me without question, is it realistic for me to guarantee that regardless of my hunger I'll be able to control myself.

Yes, suffering like this is probably what's best for the kids, and yes it will probably make his wife happier, and yes she might be made of rice and truly believe that anyone who wants more than that has a nasty problem. But it would make anyone aware of the situation wonder if just staying with the Thanksgiving family isn't the best course of action. After all, a starving person probably doesn't make for very lively company at the dinner table.

The issue doesn't necessarily have to be only about emotional issues. However, emotional issues may certainly be a side-effect.

What if your wife got in an accident and was unable to be intimate with you ever again?

You've got a great home and kids, and you're intimate, if not quite as regular as you wish. There's a word for that; it's called normal.

I know couples who never touch each other. I've got one very healthy brother with a very healthy wife, and he gets none, year after year. I've got another very healthy brother with a very healthy wife, and they are together once in a long while. It's like a desert for them. They stay there.

Are you thankful? Do you thank your wife?

My problem with this argument is those healthy brothers are looking at porn/masturbating..I can guarantee it, especially if they are normal. This poor guy can't even do that without a thick layer of guilt, he's supposed to be celibate because she is?

OlMan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What if your wife got in an accident and was
> unable to be intimate with you ever again?

Accidents, health issues, there are many reasons why some couples cannot have an intimate relationship.
>
> You've got a great home and kids, and you're
> intimate, if not quite as regular as you wish.
> There's a word for that; it's called normal.

Yup!
>
> I know couples who never touch each other. I've
> got one very healthy brother with a very healthy
> wife, and he gets none, year after year. I've got
> another very healthy brother with a very healthy
> wife, and they are together once in a long while.
> It's like a desert for them. They stay there.

That happens - I would suppose because they have other priorities than a physical one. But who cares? It's their life, they can live it in a relationship as they choose.
>
> Are you thankful? Do you thank your wife?

I want to add how important that is, on both sides: to be appreciative, thankful, gracious, kind, polite, and build the relationship in every way possible. That alone has some wonderful rewards!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2012 01:52PM by SusieQ#1.

First of all, never move out of your house without talking to a divorce lawyer about it first. Your moving out of the house could have important financial implications for you.

You and your wife have different sex drives. Since you have teenage kids, you are probably both in your 30's if not older. I agree with your assessment that your wife is in the normal range and you are in the high range for your ages.

I was in a similar situation at your age. Perhaps I can give you some insight as to what your wife is feeling. What happens is that the partner with the higher drive ends up making the partner with the average drive feel incredibly pressured. It does end up making you feel like a piece of meat. Your partner's needs are so all-consuming to him that your own needs (for rest, some alone time, recovery from illness, whatever) seem to be of little consequence. Enjoyment of sex does take somewhat of a hit. It's most likely not as much fun for her anymore. It's a chore.

It sounds to me that she does want to please you. She's trying. But she is being overwhelmed by your needs.

It's as if someone told you that you had to eat a large slice of chocolate cake six days a week after dinner. You like chocolate cake, and at first it's delicious. But maybe a day comes when you are not so hungry, or you are just tired of it. You still have to eat it. Your server recognizes this and tries to jazz it up a little bit with some raspberry filling or some shaved chocolate. But there it is again, day after day. At what point do you push it away?

One thing that you need to take into consideration is that the grass isn't always greener elsewhere. If you end up divorced, you may or may not meet a partner with a similarly high sex drive. In fact, a woman who is in every other way highly compatible with you might not even be as satisfactory as your wife in that regard. That happened to a friend of mine. Just something to think about.

This sounds like a job for a (non-Mormon) professional who can hear both sides of the issues you are dealing with.

You say that "In sex the thing I want most is to make my wife deliriously happy," but it doesn't sound like you would be satisfied with what she would actually be happy with right now. You also say that your wife has an average to above-average sex drive, but that the state of your current sex life isn't fulfilling for you. From what you've written, it would appear that you want your wife to conform to your ideas about what sexual fulfillment entails, and then be happy with what you have to offer.

You may or may not have unreasonable expectations. Your wife may have serious sexual hang-ups-- or she might just have problematic attitudes toward porn and masturbation. You may or may not understand her attitudes as well as you think you do. You may or may not be exacerbating any issues she may have. You may be pressuring her in ways that kill her desire to try new things.

I don't know. What I do know is that often we're the last ones to realize our own contributions to marital incompatibilities and because we're limited to our own experiences, we're not so great at gauging what is "normal." You may not be putting in the 'work' in other areas of your life together that would allow your wife to enjoy your sexual interest in her. You may be fundamentally incompatible sexually. I don't know.

Seriously, get yourself and your wife to counseling and work on this together.

So I'm really curious about this part you said...

2) From her perspective I am a perverse sex addict.

Is this because of the porn?? Or is this her thinking even WITHOUT the porn?