Just need to vent a little. The other day I posted on FB about the MormonVoices "top ten anti-Mormon statements" list, saying that I thought it was kind of sad that people go out of their way to find ways to be offended.

DW read it and got mightily pissed off. She was saying that if I don't believe in the church, I should just stop talking about it and move on. I didn't say anything mean or rude or anything like that, but she was just livid.

So, Saturday I just went about my business around the house and did some cleaning and shopping. I didn't know what to say to her because she was obviously still angry. Yesterday I got up early and reorganized a couple of closets and deep-cleaned our bathroom. When it was time for stake conference, I told her I wasn't in the mood for church, so I wasn't going. While she was gone, I made dinner.

Last night I watched football with my boys while I folded laundry. So, it was a productive day, and I figured the best thing to do about a seriously angry wife was just to give her some space. She kept trying to argue with me about it, and I just kept saying I was sorry I offended her, but I wasn't interested in making this big of a deal over it.

Finally, she said she wanted to talk to me, so I went in our bedroom, and she started crying and saying that it was obvious that I thought our marriage was over. She said "You've never given me the silent treatment before, and I could see in your eyes that you just don't want to deal with me anymore." I told her I didn't want to deal with her when she was this upset, as there wasn't anything I could say that would make a difference, so what she saw as a silent treatment was just me not wanting to escalate a bad situation.

She cried for a long time and said she's been having PTSD flashbacks again and had been feeling like she wanted to die. She's afraid that going through therapy is pushing her over the edge, but I told her she needs to stick with it, or this kind of stuff would keep happening over and over.

Sometimes I think I have had enough, but then I feel guilty for wanting to walk away when she is in such a bad and vulnerable place emotionally. If nothing else, I've learned that trying to keep the peace by keeping mostly quiet about the church isn't working. She finds reasons to beat me up anyway. I'm just tired.

What does she want from you? She asked you to stop talking about "it" and move on. Then she gets mad that you won't talk about it. I don't blame you for being tired. That sounds like a confusing situation.

One thing I do notice in the middle of this is FB. I am a big FB fan, but obviously it upsets and embarrasses your wife that you have these feelings about the church and are publicizing them on FB. Perhaps you should post your thoughts on a forum other than FB... maybe a blog or a diary? I have a blog that I keep anonymous. My husband knows I have it and sometimes reads it, but it's mostly just for me to vent. Maybe something similar would be good for you, a blog that you can post your thoughts on, but isn't immediately accessible to your Mormon friends or loved ones...

Sorry you had a bad weekend. It sounds like you are in a tough situation.

I am no expert, but I have been in a distantly similar situation. I would consider asking for a serious heart to heart, as you do care deeply for each other, and address the fact that you seem to be in a stalemate.

Stalemates are common enough but they need to be broken. The only way to do it is for you to either admit together where you are, agree together to work it out in loving honesty, commit to having each others backs, agree to disagree or whatever it takes---or part with deep regrets.

I forced a stalemate to break a bad situation, and things got good again, actually they got brilliant, but it's no secret it can go either way.

Your best bet is to work together and don't let anyone in the middle.

I suggest you find some common ground and respect each other's differences. Agree to disagree. Make religion a non-issue, for instance.

There is a time, as I have said many times, that I am convinced that it's appropriate to just be quiet, shut up fussing about Mormonism especially if it's a sore point in the home.
We can't all be the same. It's very important, I think to recognize that just because we changed our mind, there is no guarantee anyone else will. Besides, we can't change another person. Not possible. We don't think alike also.

One partner can have their faith, while the other wants facts, for instance. It's a difference of opinion that can be left alone.

Too often the negativity ruins relationships when it could have been avoided.

The important thing, in my view, is to focus on what you have, what is positive and what makes the relationship work: love, compassion, understanding, gratitude, forgiveness, etc.

runtu Wrote:
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> DW read it and got mightily pissed off. She was saying that if I don't believe in the church, I should just stop talking about it and move on.

I would tell her that you have things that you need to work out about how Mormonism has affected you, but that she doesn't need to have those things she finds upsetting or offensive shoved in her face. That might mean having separate computers, or a separate (and anonymous) FB account for commenting about church matters, etc.

It sounds like she's in a really vulnerable place. I'm glad that you've insisted that she keep on with her counseling sessions.

So here is the brief version;

"I did something I didn't think was a big deal, but my wife did and she blew up about it, and I can't see her point because I can find no logic in it..." You and every Husband in the whole Damn world!!! Don't feel like the Lone Ranger!

"She wanted to talk and talk about it, and I didn't, so "I gave her some space" which really means I hope with some time to think about it, she will see she is wrong and let it go, and suprisingly it didn't work. In fact the more she thought about it, not only was I wrong for causing the argument in the 1st place, but I was doubly wrong for giving her the silent treatment, which every divorce lawyer will tell you is a sure sign someone wants a divorce..."

This isn't about the Morg so much as it is about how you and your wife handle conflict, and I promise you I am no expert on the subject, but I do know that "giving her some space" never, ever, ever works! If you and your buddy get in a fight that can be effective, but this is your wife. If she wants to talk, you better talk. Every moment of silence she has while angry at you she thinks of one more thing you have done over the years that she will never forget, and will use that to build her rage into a fevered pitch, and use on you when ever the "talking" resumes. It's better to talk it out and get it over with, and unless you like this kind of drama, I would leave the FB mormon posts alone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2012 12:47PM by jon1.

I think I mostly backed off out of self-preservation. She was pretty much in uncontrolled rage, and I don't see any point in talking to her when she's like that. I hoped she would calm down, and she eventually did, at least enough for us to talk about things. It's just a never-ending cycle, and I am tired of bearing the brunt of the rage.

You did the right thing. Now you have to stick to it.

Asserting boundaries, even with mentally ill people, is difficult but necessary. Her escalating by saying the "marriage is over" because you won't engage the crazy is her upping the ante.

Continue to assert your boundaries. Demand respect by not engaging with people that are raging at you. It also isn't your job to fix her or her rage, so don't let her put that on you either.

I'm not sure that I could put up with that kind of abuse. It is certainly not reasonable to accept abuse because you're afraid of what she might do to herself if she couldn't abuse you any more. And she suffers no real consequence for her behavior either if you simply take it.

The cycle of abuse needs to be broken for there to be healing. You might want to consider that staying with her is keeping her stuck in this pattern and not really helping her at all.

It certainly isn't good for you.

I get all that, runtu. Very difficult, and wearying.

If I get what you said in the OP, you love her, so...don't give up. And you're allowed to feel her pain, and yours. Wish I could say there won't be more, but, well, you know...

Like you I did the laundry and fixed a nice Sunday dinner. I may not have done as much cleaning as I could have, but there are clean kitchen and bathroom rugs back in place.

I was going to start a thread about how maybe I like the later church schedule because the late Sunday morning has paid off two weeks in a row...wink...wink...nudge...nudge. I'd still prefer it if the wife and family skipped church altogether but I'll take what I can get.

Hang in there and let us know when it's time for another Starbucks meet up.

Stunted

To a woman, making a negative comment on FB is like making a scene in public, only worse because the witnesses aren't strangers. There's no saying to yourself, "Oh well, I'll never see them again, thank goodness." It's your family, your friends, even people you went to high school with.

It's humiliating.

Now add to that the entire umbrella of Mormon Women's Gossipland. In this alternate universe, a woman's worth is computed based on how/where she was born, her ethnicity/color, whether she is BIC or a descendant, comes from money, is blonde, if not, is hot, and then add a dumptruck load of Mormon commandments.

You may not realize it, but a Mormon woman with an apostate husband (or even a doubting/questioning husband) is blamed and pitied. She loses status/worth in the eyes of the Mormon culture, the only people that matter, God's only true people.

How is she blamed? Easy--if she were more faithful, more dutiful, more worthy, prayed more, etc., she would have set an inspiring model for you and you would have drawn closer to the Lord.

The unfortunate consequence of all those talks to inspire women is that the women take the opposite to apply to themselves, i.e,
"A woman of God magnifies the fruits of the Spirit in such a way as to lift her husband and support him in his Priesthood callings. She is SO IMPORTANT that a single man cannot expect exhaltation, not without his worthy partner by his side...blah, blah, blah.

Since your husband is wavering, you clearly see this public posting as a declaration before God and everyone on your own personal inadequacy to support this valuable priesthood holder in the work God planned for him on earth. Oh, he's not doing any work? He's folding laundry? You have just reduced him from a mighty bearded Melchisedek priesthood-holder to a p*ssy.

No wonder she's crying...

Runtu, this is brainwashing and it is not your fault. You are rational and she is functioning from inside the mirror funhouse that is a grossly distorted world view of women in Mormonism. What can you do? There is plenty you can do--don't be discouraged.

You can start by talking to her about her value. Tell her that you are the one who really sees her. That you see the real her that is underneath the Mormon role--the loving mother, the wonderful wife--take it from there and remember the good things about her that have NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT SHE DOES..no performance-based anything, just who she is, her Being.

She fears that she has lost your respect, her value, and her status in the bizarro Mormon world. Remind her that if she fails to wax the garden hose, she is still a woman with a husband who sees who she is, warts and all, and really loves her.

About her faith. Compliment her for her integrity and strengthen that. Tell her you admire her commitment to truth. Strengthen that. The love of truth plus integrity and an open mind will eventually lead her out of the church if you are patient and water the little sprouts of independent thought that you see.

You sound like a great husband --think of your children and their future as cult members. I hope that's a tear in your eye--if you can't muster the energy for the wife, do it for the kids. Be a super hero.

I'm in my sixties and I am both the goat and the superhero - the goat for getting into Mormonism and the heroine for getting everybody out. The thing I prize the most is what my daughter said to me yesterday, "Thanks so much for your wisdom, Mom, I feel so much better after talking to you." This daughter and I do not agree on her childraising technique, but the wisdom I give her is straight-forward reinforcement for her Being and the wisdom already inside her.

You don't have to agree about Monson to give her that. Best of luck, Runtu, it's not easy. You're the pioneer with a handcart of integrity plodding through uncharted family territory.

Anagrammy

I just love reading your posts. They are always so full of wisdom & compassion. Your daughter is on to something. My understanding is always increased by what you say.

Way more than a +1

runtu Wrote:
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>did some cleaning and shopping.


> Yesterday I got up early
> and reorganized a couple of closets and
> deep-cleaned our bathroom.

> Last night I watched football with my boys while I
> folded laundry.

>I just
> kept saying I was sorry I offended her.


She thinks she can find a Peter Priesthood TBM that will do that?

On the otherhand, you might have to decide if you ever want to say anything on FB about Mormonism again.

Put your thoughts on the ex Mormon boards and save FB for non controversial issues.

Sounds like this is more than about the church. And if you have kids which you do it's all the harder to imagine moving on.

So many marry young and for the wrong reasons. I admire you for thinking of her needs and the kids. But you deserve some happiness in your life. I also think you can agree to disagree about the church If and only if she leaves it alone too.
Meaning she doesnt expect you to participate or indoctrinate the kids.

Hope you can find some peace in your life.

If she's in therapy and dealing with PTSD then you may just be a convenient target for her to vent her frustrations. It's not an excuse but it often helps me if I understand WHY someone is being overly emotional.

It's great that you are encouraging and supportive of her keeping on in therapy. I imagine she'd love an excuse to quit because dealing with the sort of stuff that leads to PTSD is painful -- very painful.

It sounds like you love her very much and are just a bit burned out right now. I think it wouldn't hurt to tell her that too.

"Honey, I love you very much. But you're dealing with so much pain right now that sometimes I feel overwhelmed and I'm not sure how best to support you in it. Please be patient with me and let's commit to talk to each other often about our love for each other and our feelings."

Might help, might not. You're a good guy, though. I wish I had a man who folds laundry. ;)

I'm sorry, runtu. Around here it seems like Sundays are often blow-up days and being six years out of the church that definitely gets old. Some good advice here so I won't add to that, but on the FB thing I will say: use lists. You can create a list of "not hypersensitive Mormons" on FB and only let them see posts that relate in any way to church, politics, or sex. Good luck!

But it is all your fault...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2012 06:36PM by matt.

When dh went to therapy to deal with his issues, he was beastly for over a year. I really did not think we were going to make it. Before therapy was bad enough, but that first year-- sheesh-- I felt like I was his emotional punching bag.

I was out of the church at the time, he was still in and thought that I was the cause of all our relationship problems and all the problems in his life. He thought he had had charmed TBM upbringing and life and was stressed out at the ways my beliefs and decisions were taking his charmed TBM future away from him. Slowly, he had a series of big realizations that led to some much-hoped for change. He realized that his parents were emotionally abusive and controlling and that despite their best efforts, they just weren't mature enough as people to be good parents. It took him a while to deal with that. But he did, and now he's a very different, delightful person.

We even refer to his old persona as "old [dh's name] and every once in a while he says or does something that's "old dh" we don't even have to have a conversation about it-- I just say "old dh" and he checks himself. It's incredible-- and evidence that people really can change.

Anyway, all this to say that if she's been in therapy less than a year, hang on if you can (and want to) because things could really change. If she's pretty new to therapy (3 months or less) it might be that she needs a different therapist or that she just hasn't "gotten there" yet. For the first few months of dh's therapy he'd come home complaining that he was wasting his time. Then it paid off and he realized that all that time talking helped him realize some things about his life that made it possible for him to change.

DH and had an agreement before he went into therapy. Our marriage was pretty well over (I had moved 600 miles away) and I felt like I had done enough. He begged me to come home and give it another try. So, we agreed to work on it for a set amount of time. We gave ourselves a date and decided to work toward saving our marriage as if we were "in it to win it" without a mention of D-I-V-O-R-C-E, and then on the date we set, we agreed to evaluate whether it was worth continuing. Then we set another date, and so on. That way we didn't feel like the matter of us being together was up in the air all the time. I don't know if that's helpful to other people, but it was helpful to us to agree to table the idea of divorce for the time being, in favor of trying to negotiate new terms for our relationships.

There's my thoughts FWIW. Sorry you've had a bad weekend-- been there. It's no fun :0(